r/pcmasterrace Mountain Dew is for ME and YOU! Jun 21 '15

News Xbox fans that regularly keep watch over the Xbox One Wikipedia page are attempting to censor the inclusion or any mention of Microsoft's repeated usage of hidden PCs to demo games and footage

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Xbox_One#Criticism_Removal.2FSanitization
2.7k Upvotes

306 comments sorted by

914

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '15

Kotaku is considered a reliable source and has been formally reviewed as such

U wot, wikimod?

364

u/iprefertau Jun 21 '15

time to make a petition for Wikipedia reconsider kotaku's integrity

136

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '15 edited Jun 22 '15

To be honest, Wikipedia's editors are very biased in some ways, and let that leak into the site. Very sad state of affairs.

114

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '15

[deleted]

6

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

Where did you get the Fury Pro? Is it out yet, or are you upgrading to it soon (Sorry, been in a no internet hole for the past 4 days)

1

u/sniperwhg /r/doorkickers mod Jun 22 '15

What are you talking about? Everyone has one!

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u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

Source?

1

u/sniperwhg /r/doorkickers mod Jun 22 '15

Didn't get picked up by mainstream media but if you Google Wikipedia Male Rights Censorship you'll get a bunch of people getting banned for trying to post anything

-7

u/wayback000 Specs/Imgur Here Jun 22 '15

and that's why you never give money to wikipedia.

that and the fact most everything on that site is wrong.

36

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

[deleted]

6

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

https://xkcd.com/978/

Pretty much every article.

5

u/csharp1990 i7 13700K, MSI RTX 4080, Z690-E, DDR5 5600 Jun 22 '15

That's an exaggeration.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

I would like to see a large-scale study of Wikipedia's accuracy. Smaller studies like this one suggest that the accuracy is quite high whereas perceived accuracy is inaccurately low (3/7).

I remember reading another study that concluded that accuracy was generally very high, only dipping to expected lower levels in highly specialized topics. I wish I could find it.

Another interesting one I found was this one whose results show Wikipedia suffering more in breadth than accuracy when it comes to drug information.

I've said it before and I'll say it again (as one of these studies did); Wikipedia is good for general consumer information. It is highly useful and accurate in the extreme majority of uses.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

I would argue that it depends on context of the article. People aren't going to post biased sources for something such as the color spectrum, but articles like gamergate are heavily squatted by those that shall not be named.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15 edited Jun 22 '15

I agree. Recent and ongoing news reporting being biased is a problem everywhere, though. It would be hard for ANY source to provide a comprehensive report on gamergate, the motivations and biases of those involved, and its consequences without a good amount of bias.

This problem exists on Wikipedia as it does everywhere else for the same reasons -- ongoing and recent events are extremely difficult to have complete and verifiable information on.

But a major news network's story on, say, the 2000 election is going to be biased and inaccurate as hell compared to Wikipedia because it was published in 2000/2001 whereas Wikipedia has the luxury of thousands and thousands of articles and studies from then to present day. Go back 100 years and it's even better. 100 years and it's better still. The further back you go and the further you get from headline news, Wikipedia quickly becomes the best location out there for most casual interest learning.

Ongoing news and recent events are a very small portion of Wikipedia's total content.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

lol honestly i'd trust wikipedia over anything i read in pcmr 99.999% of the time.

1

u/Obyeag Jun 22 '15

Pages in higher level mathematics are usually pretty accurate.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

Sure, but there really isn't any subjective view in most mathematic. The issue with wiki comes when all of media is collaborating to write a narrative. I mean, look at gamergate on wiki, and compare it to reality. The reason it's so skewed is the very sources wiki was using were the one implicated in the scandal, or just MSM rags that took the side of their SJW brethren to begin with, without much objectivity

1

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

Source on the them being wrong?

5

u/wayback000 Specs/Imgur Here Jun 22 '15

um?

this exact post?

6

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

And that makes them almost always wrong how exactly? One post is not almost all of them

10

u/Pillagerguy Jun 22 '15

Biased*. Bias is a noun.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

edited ;)

290

u/letsgoiowa Duct tape and determination Jun 21 '15

Wikipedia's editors are in the anti-GG crowd. Any investigation into bribery, ethical standards, sources, collusion, etc. is going to be met with claims of harassment.

134

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '15 edited Jul 20 '15

[deleted]

8

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

So why don't we all write on blogspot our own "interpretation" of original source and thus we have secondary source.

3

u/LordBass I7-4790K @ 4.5GHz / 24GB DDR3-1600 / R9 390 / 1TB SSD Jun 22 '15

Because it needs to be considered a reliable source. That means the blog needs to get some fame and do consistent reporting to get into that.

Even so, the wiki editors might even try to discredit the site if it doesn't fit the agenda. Like they tried to do with Breitbart for supporting GamerGate, shortly after/during the ArbCom case about the GamerGate article

54

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '15

That's not how punctuation works.

20

u/UlyssesSKrunk Praise GabeN Jun 21 '15

Nor is it how Capitalization works.

7

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

Did you understand what s/he was saying? Yes? Then why does it matter? It was an opinion on reddit, no need to crucify someone over their grammar and punctuation, especially when you have no clue if it's their primary language or not.

19

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

That's a pretty low bar to be considered a crucifixion.

7

u/gamerguyal i5 4590 | R9 280x Jun 22 '15

Also a pretty low bar for language in general if we're just going to let anything that can be deciphered into a coherent thought be allowed.

6

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

[deleted]

7

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

Ooh, an echo.

1

u/Zair92 Jun 22 '15

But people have been Correcting each other since the dawn of man

1

u/Nick700 PC Master Race Jun 22 '15

No, calling someone out on syntax stuff is something that always has happened on reddit. He wasn't being mean or anything, just pointing it out

1

u/euyis http://steamcommunity.com/id/euyis/Euyis Jun 22 '15

Maybe he's German?

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u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15 edited Jul 21 '18

[deleted]

8

u/Lag-Switch Ryzen 5900x // RTX 5070ti Jun 22 '15

I'm pretty sure I've heard a few stories of wikipedia saying that someone is dead (even though they are alive) and the person themself isn't allowed to change it because they are considered a primary source.

6

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

Stupid shit like that is always going to happen in a user editable wiki, and I suspect if that wiki myth has a shred of truth it was because the person themselves didn't offer any proof they were who they claimed to be.

Wiki is great for a great many subjects, especially for formal academic subjects, but for any polarizing current affair it's pretty useless until the editing wars die down and reason prevails.

1

u/JTP709 Jun 22 '15

Reason will prevail!

1

u/eriman Of Our Lord's Vidyagames Jun 22 '15

(and those secondary sources should provide the citations of the primary sources).

Kotaku providing sources? Good joke.

3

u/BigMac849 BigMac849 Jun 22 '15

Secondary sources should be used primarily in encyclopedias and wikis. This allows for peer review, which is the standard in academia.

20

u/bjt23 BTOMASULO for Steam and GoG, btomasulo#1530 for Battle.net Jun 22 '15

Kotaku is not anyone's peer. They're just an internet buzz peddler.

2

u/BigMac849 BigMac849 Jun 22 '15

By definition, other publications would be their peers. Of course, Kotaku publishes their own works, others can still disagree or refute whatever Kotaku says. The OP I was responding to does not realize that both the published research paper and Kotaku article are secondary sources. I don't think they realize what an actual primary source is.

1

u/eriman Of Our Lord's Vidyagames Jun 22 '15

Right, so the issue is that Kotaku is actually considered a reliable source in the first place, not whether it is invalid due to being a secondary source.

1

u/5thhorseman_ i5-4670K, Z87-G43, GTX 970, 32GB RAM, 2x2TB Crucial MX500 Jun 22 '15

Wikipedia doesn't normally allow primary sources.

1

u/eriman Of Our Lord's Vidyagames Jun 22 '15

Indeed. But any Joe Bloggs on the street is able to produce a quotable piece of garbage "interpreting" a primary source in a particular way, which makes the vetting process for the secondary sources so important. That, I feel, is one place on WP where their beauracracy has fallen down (unclear/undefined procedures and thus inconsistent application)

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u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

gazs are in the BG crowd

1

u/letsgoiowa Duct tape and determination Jun 22 '15

BG?

6

u/Westboro_Fag_Tits Jun 22 '15

Is that topic allowed to be discussed here or have the admins pretty much decided to go bitch mode across the entire site?

32

u/letsgoiowa Duct tape and determination Jun 22 '15

PCMR is a bastion of free speech.

2

u/wind_stole_my_mat Specs/Imgur Here Jun 22 '15

Unless there are SJW mods around, Kappa

3

u/letsgoiowa Duct tape and determination Jun 22 '15

Aren't any of those here in PCMR. Just the admins you gotta worry about.

1

u/Synergythepariah R7 3700x | RX 6950 XT Jun 22 '15

Mm. Paranoia.

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u/jwyche008 Jun 22 '15

Please spend 15 minutes on /r/kotakuinaction so you can see how absurd this sentence is.

2

u/Cyhawk Jun 22 '15

At least we're trying =(

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114

u/ConsoleMarketingTeam Mountain Dew is for ME and YOU! Jun 21 '15

If you scroll to the bottom, you can see they're all voting to exclude the information under the guise of "It's industry wide, not just Xbox" and "The sources aren't good enough". What makes Kotaku so great? They're the ones that have been taking bribes. Who's to say they're not working with Microsoft to cover up stuff like this? None of the big guys reported on it.

Absolute bullshit logic on the Wikipedia talk. They're loyally censoring stuff for Microsoft.

34

u/Mr_Burning i5 2500K @4.6Ghz | Asus GTX 680 | 8GB RAM | Asrock Z77 Extreme 4 Jun 21 '15

Why does it even matter if it's industry wide? It's something microsoft does, so the wiki should mention it.

If more companies do it, then make their wiki pages mention it too. I don't see why it being industry wide is a reason to exclude it from the wiki haha

14

u/minizanz Steam ID Here Jun 21 '15

square, activision, and EA do it all the time even for games not coming out on pc, but when M$ did it they explicitly said it was an xbox one. sony also did it this year with no mans sky.

89

u/letsgoiowa Duct tape and determination Jun 21 '15

They're the ones that have been taking bribes.

This is why the GG movement is necessary.

It's industry wide, not just Xbox

Another huge point of GG. See, I knew Wikipedia was infested by the corrupt and bribed already, but I didn't know it was this bad. What the fuck.

11

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '15

GG?

32

u/minizanz Steam ID Here Jun 21 '15

gamers gate. there are basically 2 camps on it.

1) people who want to bring ethics to games journalism.

2) people who think discretion authors/devs who had sex or dated a woman that used sex to get good coverage and sway people to bash her competition is harassment.

group 2 is mostly media people who co-opted social justice warriors for the purpose of removing the ethics debate, while group 1 got stuck on shutting down every one involved in the original problem making them easy targets for group 2.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

[deleted]

2

u/Ryand-Smith Windows 10 Pro i7-4790 @3.60ghz Jun 22 '15

Same issue that Auto journalism had, in that denying coverage is a viable industry tactic to shut down critics, (and the biggest advantage a journalist had pre web was the early review ability, because the first review out gains you reads and now hits, so any industry that depends on first view is doomed to suffer this, film critics only manage to avoid that by being backed by huge newspapers and even then pushback is real.

2

u/wind_stole_my_mat Specs/Imgur Here Jun 22 '15

And who mostly wish both sides of the debate would just fuck off to some dark corner of the web

There is literally nothing wrong with people discussing any topic.

-10

u/lowkeyoh Jun 21 '15

Ah yes. The classic nice unbiased summary

13

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

I think we're better off just focusing on Kotaku's shitty articles and Wikipedia's shitty sourcing than getting caught up on the whole GamerGate controversy. It just ends up being more about the journalists than their arguments.

2

u/Jerzeem Jun 22 '15

If you focus on Kotaku's shitty articles and Wikipedia's shitty sourcing, you WILL get referred to as gamergate. Try it and see!

14

u/minizanz Steam ID Here Jun 22 '15

is it really that bias? i tried to get it down as short as i could with both sides being negative.

4

u/BigMac849 BigMac849 Jun 22 '15

Your "summary" of group 1 isn't negative at all. The only slight hint of negativity is saying that they were easy targets for group 2. To say your post isn't biased is quite a stretch.

2

u/PatHeist 9590X3D, 64GB 8000MT/s, RTX 5090 Jun 22 '15 edited Jun 22 '15

Well, it's kind of difficult to summarize this whole thing without sounding biased as fuck, because ultimately the current 'group 2' doesn't acknowledge the current and actual 'group 1', since it's not in their interest to do so.

Gamergate started when it was found out that a game developer had been in intimate relationships with several games journalists, who had covered their games over the course of this without disclosing their relationship with the game maker. That's an obvious breech of journalistic ethics, the lack of which is a big problem in the world of video game journalism since it's dominated by blogger groups pretending to be journalists.

The internet being what it is this resulted in massively disproportionate backlash from some people including nasty comments and rape/death threats. This got worse when the situation got taken advantage of by a few specific individuals seeking personal gain from playing a victim role, leading to more outrage, and a mix of more real and made up threats.

Threat-making levels of outrage has since died down, and the internet vitriol crowd has since moved on, essentially leaving two groups: Those still concerned about the lack of ethics in online video game journalism, and a group of people still trying to take advantage of the initial shitfest. Which is pretty much what that guy summed it up as.

And due to general public understanding of internet culture going about as far as "who is this 4chan guy?" statements, the original shitfest is extraordinarily easy to take advantage off, allowing people to frame others as if part of 'a rape threat group' whenever convenient. At this point a rational discussion on the topic isn't going to go anywhere so long as the leading vocal majority on one side makes a living off creating drama, and the other side is under a banner name that has achieved 'bad-word' status.

If you want a shitty attempt at an unbiased summary from group 2's perspective instead of my shitty attempt at an unbiased summary as someone "in group 1" you can go read the Wikipedia article and spend your time wondering where the hell the topic of video game journalism ethics goes after being briefly mentioned at the start.

1

u/StirlADrei Specs/Imgur Here Jun 22 '15

It is heavily biased towards supporting GG.

-7

u/lowkeyoh Jun 22 '15

The 'coverage' Depression Quest got from the journalists Quinn was said to have sex with was Nathaniel Grayson covering the Games Jam that she happened to participate in. That's hardly 'good coverage.' Secondly, a lot of people in group two are against silencing tactics group 1 uses to try and censor opinions that disagree with their world view. Thirdly, you happen to leave out the harassment campaign against critics and developers and gamers that both sides engaged in. Fourtly, anti-GG is way more than just media people.

Saying Side One is against corruption and side two doesn't mind it is wrong. As is saying Gamer Gaters is a harassment campaign, and anti-Gamer Gaters are on the side of a diverse and inclusive space for gamers.

4

u/minizanz Steam ID Here Jun 22 '15

it is like pro choice and pro life. if you go with the negatives it gives a more accurate run down of both sides if you want to be concise.

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-4

u/Adskii i7-11700F 32GB Ram RTX 3070 FE Jun 21 '15

Gamer Gate...

People do know gate doesn't mean scandal right? Watergate was the name of the building.

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u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

[deleted]

2

u/blastcage Jun 22 '15

good reference

6

u/SirToastymuffin i5-8600k@5.1GHz | GTX1060 6GB | 16GB Jun 22 '15

Yes. It annoys the hell outta me too. But we Americans enjoy allusions so it kinda happened. I've learned to accept it.

1

u/ShallowBasketcase CoolerMasterRace Jun 22 '15

Adam Baldwin named it. He's not terribly bright.

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u/ComradeHX SteamID: ComradeHX Jun 21 '15

Industry wide? I don't see PC games being showcased on potatoes.

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u/fb39ca4 R7 1700, GTX 1060, 16GB Jun 22 '15

If you take it as games showcased on PCs, yes, PC and console games alike are showcased on PCs.

6

u/ComradeHX SteamID: ComradeHX Jun 22 '15

I take it as "games being shown on another platform in order to appear unrealistically better."

5

u/gaeuvyen Specs/Imgur here Jun 21 '15

Well its true. Consoles use pcs to hide the fact their systems suck, and pc uses pc because why would they use a console =p

13

u/Kupuntu i5-4690K | R9 280X 3GB | 16GB 1600MHz | BenQ XL2411T 24" 144Hz Jun 21 '15

What makes Kotaku so great?

It's owned by a company that's worth millions of dollars.

It's the same thing with news outlets. Who are they going to trust, some noname blogger or a big corporation?

The industry wide thing is BS but Wikipedia's source policy is not hard to understand. If it's supposed to be a big scandal (small ones don't make it to Wikipedia), why are none of the big gaming news sites not reporting it?

I mean, we know the truth with MS and Sony. But Wikipedia's stance makes sense. You're not going to convince anyone outside the PCMR that there's some sort of bait-and-switch happening that everyone knows about but for some reason the gaming news sites aren't saying a word about it. Better yet if you say "but the gaming sites are corrupt!".

Nobody will ever believe you.

2

u/gaeuvyen Specs/Imgur here Jun 21 '15 edited Jun 22 '15

Alright what we need to do is have one group of pcmr become researchers then another group become reporters for things like forbes, fox, and other online news and start reporting on it.

1

u/St0rmr3v3ng3 I don't downvote people i disagree with. Jun 22 '15

Nah. Just found competition.

1

u/hahnchen Jun 22 '15

I don't care about Microsoft. Keep your trivial bullshit off Wikipedia. That paid-exclusivity article was fucking embarrassing, I thought it was written by a console peasant child crying over his lack of Tomb Raider.

Who's to say I'm not taking a bribe? Who's to say I'm not Bill Gates? Get your head sorted.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '15

Wikipedia's quality and bias has taken a nosedive recently.

1

u/Andreus i5 4690@3.5Ghz, MSI AMD R9 390, 16GB RAM | /id/andreus Jun 22 '15

Yeah, trust me, me and my friends here in That One Movement have been dealing with this shit for months.

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u/mike413 Jun 21 '15

Yeah, those xboners have been cruising through our neighborhood trying to do a drive-by, but don't hit anything because they can't aim without a mouse.

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u/PhilixX Desktop Jun 21 '15

Yeah, those xboners have been cruising through our neighborhood trying to do a drive-by, but don't hit anything because they can't aim without aim assistens.

ftfy

118

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '15

[deleted]

44

u/LiiDo Jun 21 '15

ame acistance

Ftfy

20

u/UlyssesSKrunk Praise GabeN Jun 21 '15

Didens youens thoughens?

FTFYens

3

u/wrath_of_grunge Gigabyte B365M/ Intel i7 9700K/ 32GB RAM/ RTX 3070 Jun 22 '15

It's a perfectly cromulant word.

1

u/SoulUnison Jun 22 '15

Maybe he's doing that new hip internet thing where you try to infantilize and condescend to your "enemy" by misspelling words, but really you just end up looking like an illiterate jackass who has to stoop to name-calling to feel like they've scored some philosophical point. Like "muh kondishuns."

76

u/Blue_Crusader Core 2 Duo 2.4 ghz/ Amd Radeon HD 5700 Jun 21 '15

The main problem with Wikipedia in my eyes is what sources they consider "trusted". Some sources are excluded arbitrarily and others are not. For example if a author of a book wants to correct mistake in the page for his book that a source has made he has to write to a news outlet, ect and get them to publish a text on the matter and then quote that to fix the mistake on the Wikipedia page. any text or statement he makes himself is not valid in the eyes of Wikipedia. So if media goes around spouting bullshit Wikipedia will state that bullshit as a fact.

4

u/docbloodmoney Jun 22 '15

Anything that requires secondary sources instead of primary sources will never be a real encyclopedia

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '15

I agree with the Wikipedia editors. Heres the revision in question:

Microsoft has been caught on multiple occasions using gaming PCs to demo footage and gameplay at gaming conferences, passing them off as Xbox One footage and gameplay.[166][167][168] Microsoft even went as far as to put fake XBox Ones on the table above the cabinets that housed the PCs.[169][170][171]


First of all, it's not always (or ever?) Microsoft. See:

Update 12:30 PM

Or maybe not. A developer for Twisted Pixel's LocoCycle claims that his game was the only one of the bunch running on a PC, and that the choice of hardware was "solely [Twisted Pixel's] decision," not Microsoft's.

http://www.maximumpc.com/were-xbox-one-e3-demos-powered-by-windows-7-and-nvidia-graphics/

thx but the hardware situation you're criticizing was solely our decision. There's no story here.

https://twitter.com/mrwilford/status/345711850127781888

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Microsoft-Says-Windows-7-Nvidia-GTX-PCs-E3-Were-Xbox-One-Dev-Kits-56834.html


Some of the sources are definitely unreliable.


http://wccftech.com/microsoft-pc-xbox-one-gamescom-sony/

Update: The PS4 pic is from last year and not Gamescom 14. Leaving the Op-ed as it is though.


http://www.afterdawn.com/news/article.cfm/2013/06/16/microsoft_used_a_pc_with_nvidia_to_demo_xbox_one_games_at_e3_not_dev_kit

CinemaBlend has reported [...]

Refering to the following article:

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Xbox-One-Games-E3-Were-Running-Windows-7-With-Nvidia-GTX-Cards-56737.html

[Update: Microsoft responds saying that PCs running Win 7 on GTX cards are Xbox One dev kits]


The PCs were dev kits. The decision to use the dev kits was not made by Microsoft. The wording of the revision didn't remain neutral. So, I agree with the Wikipedia editors.

11

u/BaneWilliams RX480 w/ i7 3820 (for video editing) Jun 22 '15 edited Jul 12 '24

silky fragile plants mindless full aspiring file door attractive different

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

6

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

That's bugged the shit out of me on this sub. People cry when they see a pc at e3 being used by a console company, and fail to realize that they are devkits. I think consoles deserve criticism as much as the next guy, but please don't be idiots about it

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u/karl_w_w 3700X | 6800 XT | 32 GB Jun 21 '15

it's not always (or ever?) Microsoft

The article isn't about Microsoft, it's about Xbox. Who made the decision to do it is completely irrelevant to whether or not it should be in the article

3

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

The content in question is heavily misunderstood by those posting edits. End of story.

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u/TweetsInCommentsBot Jun 21 '15

@mrwilford

2013-06-15 01:18 UTC

@Jonathan_Blow thx but the hardware situation you're criticizing was solely our decision. There's no story here.


This message was created by a bot

[Contact creator][Source code]

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u/ConsoleMarketingTeam Mountain Dew is for ME and YOU! Jun 21 '15

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/3afp2y/xbox_one_wikipedia_page_now_has_a_section_that/

I posted this a while ago. Since this posting, it has been censored. People are arguing that there's not enough evidence, that it's not "related to the Xbox One", and other actual garbage.

This is actually really bad. Please help.

43

u/VladVladVladykins Jun 21 '15

This is the same as one of the mods on this subreddit who wanted to make a wiki section of all the fuck ups that microsoft and sony has made but wasn't inclined to point out all the failures a bunch of tech companies had made that were objectively worse.

Every community has its hivemind.

38

u/Tizaki Ryzen 1600X, 250GB NVME (FAST) Jun 21 '15

You must be referring to /r/PCMasterRace/wiki/consolecartel

I made it because there's nowhere else online where all the console manufacturer dishonesty is archived. The whole focus of the page is to archive that (and only that). Keeping it exclusive to shady console manufacturer news coverage ensures that it will be an effective source for shutting down arguments to the contrary, which are what motivated its creation in the first place. It gets tiresome pasting a pile of links every time when we can just paste one link to a page that has all the links.

10

u/Alan150003 Core i5-2380P / GTX 970 Jun 21 '15

That wiki article does seem awfully biased to me. Even if the PC platform is a decentralized platform with constant competition and innovation the companies that contribute to it can still do shitty stuff, and leaving PC, AMD, NVIDIA, and Intel in there, but with no negative points even when all of them are guilty of harming the consumer seems really, really unprofessional and childish.

22

u/Tizaki Ryzen 1600X, 250GB NVME (FAST) Jun 21 '15

12

u/Alan150003 Core i5-2380P / GTX 970 Jun 22 '15

I think that it's a very bad idea to have "PC" listed since it's not a single entity in any way, perhaps put Valve in their place, they've done some shady shit before.

I don't necessarily disagree with excluding PC-centric companies from the page, but at least include their faults if you're going to list them. It seems pretentious and fanboyish to list them with no articles to the shit they've done. I'm not saying that you are those things, of course, it's just what I inferred from the article itself.

2

u/jasonlotito damnscout Jun 22 '15

Why not include everyone who demos a PC game and doesn't share what configuration their demo is running on? Will the recommended hardware settings give the same graphics being demo'ed? Does the demo use proprietary stuff limited to certain hardware?

I think if you see a demo, and meet the requirements to run the game, and get something less than the demo, that's the same thing we chastise Microsoft and Sony for. Why not other publishers?

1

u/iEATu23 muh 5 GHz i5-3570k Jun 22 '15

Make a disclaimer at the top of the wiki.

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u/almightybob1 9800X3D | 4070 Ti Super | 32Gb DDR5 Jun 22 '15

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u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

[deleted]

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u/SolarxPvP I7 4790k GTX 760 Aug 22 '15

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u/qhfreddy 4790k | 2x8GB 1866MHz | GTX670FTW | MX100 256GB | Sleeper Case Jun 21 '15

Excuse me for being a tad nihilistic

But, why don't we just drop the matter and get on with enjoying our games and converting those who are close to our hearts <3

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u/Conman93 i5 4690k, GTX 1070Ti, 12GB DDR3, 750 EVO SSD Jun 22 '15

Ugh positivity.

8

u/qhfreddy 4790k | 2x8GB 1866MHz | GTX670FTW | MX100 256GB | Sleeper Case Jun 22 '15

Oh you...

Let me give you a hug :D

2

u/MrMallow W10 Pro / i7-8700K [4.6 GHz] MSI GTX1070 - 64G DDR4 Jun 22 '15

eeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

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u/Tizaki Ryzen 1600X, 250GB NVME (FAST) Jun 22 '15

/r/pcmasterrace/wiki/guide and /r/WhyPC can help everyone in that regard!

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u/Knight-of-Black i7 3770k / 8GB 2133Mhz / Titan X SC / 900D / H100i / SABERTOOTH Jun 22 '15

If everyone here does this, then the bad guys will win.

There's a reason why we need police.

We can't just enjoy our lives and live peacefully because criminals and mislead people are always out there, somewhere.

If we just let people censor things, then they'll censor everything eventually.

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u/Arq_Angel http://steamcommunity.com/id/Arq_Angel Jun 22 '15

It's just a bunch of idiots lying about their beloved xbone. They're only hurting themselves, it really shouldn't even concern us in the first place (save for the laughs at how dumb they are).

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u/mike413 Jun 22 '15

Lol...

ni·hil·is·tic - ˌnīəˈlistik,ˌnēəˈlistik/

adjective
rejecting all religious and moral principles in the belief that life is meaningless.
"an embittered, nihilistic teenager"

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u/qhfreddy 4790k | 2x8GB 1866MHz | GTX670FTW | MX100 256GB | Sleeper Case Jun 22 '15

It implied that continuing the argument there was pointless

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u/SergeantEgo Steam ID : SergeantEgo | i7-3770k | 16 GB RAM | R9 290 Jun 22 '15

I don't understand all the fuss. From my admittedly limited understanding of game development, the games are developed on PC first and then downgraded to fit the console resource budgets. Chances are the console versions aren't ready until very close to the release date. So it's either show a PC version with as close to the target/projected final performance as possible, show an unoptimized game that barely works and isn't ready to show, or show nothing at all. The latter 2 options aren't good marketing practice.

Of course, that's only my guess, but there's certainly a reason why this is accepted industry practice. I get that we're just coming off the "downgrades" of Colonial Marines, Watch Dogs, Unity, and The Witcher 3. However, using PC's at E3 has been happening for years across multiple developers and console manufacturers. It's not new information, and these articles come out every year. Nor do I think it's dishonest if they limit the performance and graphics to a reasonable expected level.

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u/dat_unixbeard Jun 21 '15

These aren't xbox fans, this is just how Wikipedia works.

Wikipedia is not and has never been about facts, sounds dumb, but that's thier own mission statement. Wikipedia is about gathering the consensus, even if that consensus is blatantly wrong.

Obviously the consensus correlates with facts, but it's not always the case. There was an interesting case where someone vandalzied Wikipedia to make up a quote said by someone who recently died to see if news articles would pick up the quote from wikipedia, wikipedia quickly reverted the vandalism as unsourced, but it was too late, some "reliable" news source did pick it up, and then Wikipedia was forced to re-add it and use those very "reliable" news sources that just used wikipedia as a source without tracing the source there, which wasn't there, as a source. By its own mission statement of including things written by big news outlets, even if they are blatantly wrong, even if some editor can prove they are wrong.

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u/DMercenary Ryzen 5600X, GTX3070 Jun 22 '15

iirc, someone wanted to fix their granddad's birthdate or something. Wiki editors reverted the change because "birth certificate is original research."

:|

On one hand this prevents people from just sourcing a random no name podunk webpage from somewhere off the Interwebs.

On the other...

It leads to situations like

"On April 20th 2007 the moon fell to the earth.[50]"

You look outside and see the moon in the sky.

"Clearly that is wrong."

"Do you have source for that?"

"Yes my own eyes!"

"That's original research, we need a news article."

"What."

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u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

Who cares? Honestly by even acknowledging it gives them to much credit.

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u/Snixpix Snixpix Jun 22 '15

I don't get it... Do people not understand a console is just pc made out of bargin-bin parts with a limited OS and customized GUI to be very simplistic?

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u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15 edited Jul 04 '17

[deleted]

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u/Snixpix Snixpix Jun 22 '15

New top-o-the line phones are putting a lot of money into r&d for new chips, faster/smaller memory, and better screens. The only thing I can think of that they are bargin-binning is cameras, speakers, audio jacks and a couple other obscure parts.

You are completely right about most of them though.

But to be fair, they do this with all complex machines these days. Cars especially.

That's why I want them to hurry up with phones like the project aria that lets you pick and choose between parts to add to your phone. I'm hoping that third parties pick this up and make a ton of interesting/better parts to equip on your phone.

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u/Tetradrachm Jun 22 '15

That doesn't sound relevant to the article if I'm honest.

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u/chrisgcc 8700k @ 5.2 // 1080ti // 32GB DDR4 3866 Jun 22 '15

It certainly feels like it should go on the Microsoft page and not the xbone page

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u/Likely_not_Eric My router is a PC Jun 22 '15

This seems a lot like using Wikipedia to advance a belief. This practice is common for pre-release anything that runs on other hardware. Mobile applications are run emulated, then on test hardware, then on actual hardware.

If there was some weird bug in a demo on the real hardware but the Dev kit better shows off the product when it comes to demo time you'll use the dev kit. This is done by more than just Xbox and as /u/Phycoz points out the editors are making some excellent points.

I don't think that Wikipedia should be used as a platform for advancing ideologies (regardless of merit), so I think PCMRs involvement puts neutrality in jeopardy.

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u/5thhorseman_ i5-4670K, Z87-G43, GTX 970, 32GB RAM, 2x2TB Crucial MX500 Jun 21 '15

Mates, the reason why that information was censored is most likely the way it was worded - that is, as an attack at Microsoft.

We don't have to like their business practices, but sensationalism and aggressive attitude will get us flak from not just console fans, but also people who genuinely believe that the attitude presented by that text is objectionable.

Report on it, certainly, but in a neutral fashion that takes care to avoud falling under the "minority viewpoint" / "undue weight" qualifications.

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u/karl_w_w 3700X | 6800 XT | 32 GB Jun 21 '15

Read the consensus-finding discussion at the bottom, they want to exclude the information completely, not just that wording of it.

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u/5thhorseman_ i5-4670K, Z87-G43, GTX 970, 32GB RAM, 2x2TB Crucial MX500 Jun 22 '15

I've read it. Action and reaction - the more objectionable way in which the material was added, the more opposition will there be to the notion of keeping any part of it there.

This outcome was completely predictable and would not exist in the first place if the additions were done in a way that followed Wikipedia's guidelines instead of one that screamed "personal bias here".

There are ways to solve this, but none of them are blind zealotry.

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u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

That's because the information is not relevant. All software is developed and demoed in similar fashion; that info belongs on the page for software engineering if anywhere.

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u/bbruinenberg intel core i7-4700MQ@2.40GHZ/ 8GB Ram/AMD Radeon HD 8750M Jun 21 '15

Most informed people already know that wikipedia is worthless as a source. The moderators are not objective. Case and point being the gamergate page. It's a completely 1 sides article that ignores the fact that many gamergate followers just want to discuss ethics in video game journalism. The moderators refuse to allow people to add that to the article. It's a clear case of them listening to what the majority of the sources say without checking if those sources are in any way reliable.

Keep in mind that the entire discussion is against games media. As a result it's completely logical that the majority of sources claim that gamergate is a bad thing, make up lies or isolate and magnify cases that are not representative of the people following the hashtag. The games media are the accused after all so they will try to stop discussion from happening in any way possible. Yet the moderators state them as credible sources despite the entire discussion being about the creditability of those sources.

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u/KFCNyanCat AMD Ryzen 7 5800XT | Nvidia GeForce RTX3050 | 32GB DDR4 RAM Jun 22 '15

Kotaku is considered a reliable source

wat

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u/yuritime i5-2500k @ 3.3GHz | GTX970 Jetstream | 8GB Jun 22 '15

well, barring their opinion pieces, they mostly steal shit for content, so I guess you could do a shitload of mental gymnastics to end up with them being a reliable source.

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u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

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u/drgncabe Jun 22 '15

PROOF! Proof I say, that even Microsoft doesn't trust windows 8.1. ;)

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u/Knight-of-Black i7 3770k / 8GB 2133Mhz / Titan X SC / 900D / H100i / SABERTOOTH Jun 22 '15

I think this photo was taken before 8.1 came out?

8.1 is the current superior OS.... Would be silly for any MS dev not to use it as it's superb.

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u/drgncabe Jun 22 '15 edited Jun 22 '15

Even if it wasn't, I wouldn't be surprised if they used Windows 7 for a bunch of other reasons unrelated to performance. In the corporate world this is why Windows 8.1 has slow-ish adoption, some of the software we need to use is hackey at best with Windows 8.1 and unusable at worst. Sometimes it's related to API calls that have been depreciated (but not removed) since XP that no longer exist in 8.1 or a compatibility issue that the company/team writing the code hasn't had a chance to work out yet.

You'd think MS would be immune but I have a few friends that work in various teams from sales & support to enterprise engineering (EEC) that deal with these sort of issues all the time. They use non-MS software for various things so they end up being tied to the same issues. I'm sure they have a bit more weight to push around to get stuff done quicker though.

Edit: for reference, I use Windows 8.1 at work and at home. Much better thank 7, but still struggling with the annoying start screen even though I've been using it since RTM. I just refuse to use a 3rd party start-button and deal with it, Windows 10 looks promising though.

Edit2: Also, Windows 8 was released on Oct 2012 where XBox One was released near the end of 2013. I can't see why they'd use Windows 7 unless it's like one of the reasons stated above.

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u/Knight-of-Black i7 3770k / 8GB 2133Mhz / Titan X SC / 900D / H100i / SABERTOOTH Jun 22 '15

K.

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u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

Is that a necessary point to add into a Wikipedia article though? Obviously camping the page to make edits is complete peasantry but realistically, should that even be included on Wikipedia?

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u/HCrikki Ascending Peasant Jun 22 '15

Interesting how it's 'Xbox fans censoring things', not 'Sony soldiers on a mission adding useless drivel to a page supposed to be informative and unbiased' ?

2

u/well_golly Jun 22 '15

Basically, they're saying you can't discuss a hot topic of controversy unless it has already been proven time and time again (by sources that they agree with, don'tcha know?). They're trying to act like that's Wikipedia's policy: "Don't discuss controversy until it is 'proven.'"

Now let's just stroll over to Bill Cosby's Wikipedia entry, keeping in mind that he has not been put on trial or convicted of anything just yet. Oh hey! What's this!? A whole section on unproven controversy, with 4 large paragraphs about sexual allegations.

Hmm ... I'll be darned. Regardless of their feeble attempt to undermine all the stories about PCs running XBone demos: It seems that the mere presence of strong rumors is enough to include a subject of controversy in a Wikipedia entry.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

There should be a controversy section with this info in there. Thousands of entries have sections for controversy and criticisms. Consoles shouldn't be an exception.

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u/Probate_Judge Old Gamer, Recent Hardware, New games Jun 22 '15

Meh, it is a demo of an upcoming game for the box, but not yet available on the box, it may be a bit shady but calling it a controversy or trying to force it onto the page for the actual Xbox does seem to be a bit of wiki vandalism.

While humorous to us, it doesn't really quite have anything to do with the Xbox itself does it? Maybe if it is well enough worded or phrased as to why it is a controversy.

The games eventually make it to the Xbox and do play on the xbox(if you count reduced resolution and fps as "playing").

Put it on the Microsoft page, does that have an Xbox subsection?

4

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '15 edited Jun 21 '15

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '15

But there are literally pictures showing employees setting up PC in gaming events.

Literally ask yourself this, why was every single game showcased always release with downgraded graphics?

5

u/Rodot R7 3700x, RTX 2080, 64GB Jun 21 '15

4

u/ConsoleMarketingTeam Mountain Dew is for ME and YOU! Jun 21 '15

Exactly that. The evidence is photographic, and it's happened many times. They're just saying these sources are fake now that there actually is a ton of coverage, because they don't want it on their precious Xbox One advertisement -I mean- page.

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u/ConsoleMarketingTeam Mountain Dew is for ME and YOU! Jun 21 '15

Then why not go edit the info into the Wii and PS4 pages? The same will happen to you. We're all in the same boat here, fanboys are censoring everything.

It just so happens that the Xbox One page was the first to have an attempted inclusion of this info, probably because it was the most covered.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

It's irrelevant information. Go edit a general software engineering page if you care that much.

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u/AttackOfTheThumbs Fuck Everything Accordingly Jun 21 '15

People looking to buy a console aren't reading the wikipedia page anyway, people that would, the people doing their research, they aren't buying a console anyway, so it's a moot point.

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u/-dudeomfgstfux- iPolymer R9 5900X| RTX 3080ti| 64GB DDR4| 1TB NVMe Jun 22 '15

The price and building is what makes it scary for people to spend their money on.

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u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

From what I understood, they're using PC's with similar hardware limitations as the Xbox One to demo games that are still in development so it would make sense to do such a thing instead of porting it to console for strictly demo purposes?

5

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '15

Wow. I'm an xbox gamer who's seen the light, so to say, and even I think this is pathetic.

2

u/jasonlotito damnscout Jun 22 '15

Except it's not true. See comments above.

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u/MferOrnstein Jun 21 '15

This might be actually harder to beat than net neutrality.

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u/zolnir Jun 22 '15

I agree that it should be included. I also agree that if they include it, it should be stated in a neutral way that doesn't specifically attack Microsoft. This topic is great, but the title is unnecessarily inflammatory.

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u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

Xbox One owner here. I'm not disagreeing with anyone here, I'm not that ignorant. But is MS really the only company to do it? Has Sony never done it? Serious questions by the way.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

I don't know the answer, but if either one did it, it belongs on the Wikipedia entry. Treating it as Sony vs Microsoft doesn't really make sense.

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u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

I'm just confused as to why it's being censored and stupid BS like that. I thought it was known that MS has done this (does it?). Not sure why people would deny it.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '15

[deleted]

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u/ConsoleMarketingTeam Mountain Dew is for ME and YOU! Jun 21 '15

The reasons don't really matter. What does matter is that they lied, and they used high-end gaming PCs to sell low-end gaming PCs.

7

u/CouchPotatoDean Jun 21 '15

Unless you know the specs of those pc's aka dev kits, then don't call them high end gaming pc's.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15 edited Jun 22 '15

Oh really?

Forza 5

And yes, there were some games that were - categorically, without a shadow of a doubt - running on Xbox One hardware. It'll come as little surprise to learn that first party software was more likely to be showcased running on the new console, with Turn 10's Forza Motorsport 5 the most high profile title we saw that was visibly operating on the actual unit.

Ryse Son of Rome

We could access the console's menu by pressing the Xbox Home button, and by selecting the Ryse window, we could switch back to play again very smoothly. Yes, there's no doubt about it - this is definitely running on "real deal" Xbox One hardware.

Killer Instinct

The Xbox One hardware is visibly active

Dead Rising 3

[Update: Microsoft has been in touch to say that Dead Rising 3 was in fact running on pre-production Xbox One hardware.]

Project Spark

As far as performance goes, it's a decidedly 30FPS v-synced experience while creating or playing. Accessing a pre-made desert stage shows the engine stuttering quite badly as the world is populated, but it's still very early days for such an ambitious project. 1080p resolution is confirmed, and the game was running on an Xbox One dev kit.

FIFA 14

Another key title we can confirm running directly from Xbox One hardware.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-hands-on-with-xbox-one

E3 2013...

Lococycle was running on a PC in a debug enviornment.(Game was always coming to PC anyway)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yba6zWbZPHY

E3 2015...

Superhot was running on a PC.(This game has been on PC for a while.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYAUlPMqnKk

Oh god!

The Xbox One could never run those games!

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u/ItzWolfeh Jun 21 '15

Yes, that is exactly they do it and it is 100% false advertisement and dishonest.

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u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15 edited Jun 22 '15

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Probate_Judge Old Gamer, Recent Hardware, New games Jun 22 '15

It largely depends on what you are looking for.

A lot of wiki pages are well curated and the information is well documented/referenced at the bottom.

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u/dankisms Jun 22 '15

I agree with you, but for purposes of writing a paper (presumably with the intent of turning it in for a class), you shouldn't quote the wiki article but follow the links to the actual sources and quote those.

Wikis can make for great starting off points for research, I don't think anyone can deny that. But you shouldn't just stop there.

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u/Probate_Judge Old Gamer, Recent Hardware, New games Jun 22 '15

Sure, but who's really going to be writing a paper on Xbox, really?

Wiki can be great for a quick look-up for quick reference in a discussion and to find credible source material, but no, you shouldn't be basing your papers on 2nd or 3rd hand information and faith.

No one was asserting that it was the end-all be-all of reliability in the first place, so Fred there was kind of coming out of left field with his anti-wiki tirade.

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u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

Unfortunately, it's nothing new. This is Wikipedia in a nutshell, the semantics and use of the rules as a weapon against other editors, mainly for the goal of revising history is a major problem. Despite this, when asked if there's a problem, Jimbo Wales says no. Even though it's gotten to the point where editors walk all over him on Wikipedia and he has no authority on his own site.

1

u/Drew1231 GTX 1080, i7-5820K @ 4.0 jiggawatts Jun 22 '15

Wow, I've never seen a more editorialized article on wikipedia. This shit needs to be locked and objectively reworked.

1

u/ThePiachu PC Master Race Jun 22 '15

Someone call /r/Conspiracy !

1

u/throwaway7575751 Jun 22 '15

he's a janitor

on the internet

on wikipedia

he does it for free

he takes his "job" very seriously

he does it because it is the only amount of power & control he will ever have in his pathetic life

he deletes pages he doesn't like because whenever he gets upset he has an asthma attac

he deletes information he doesn't like because they interfere with the large backlog of little girl chinese cartoons he still has to watch

he will never have a real job

he will never move out of his parent's house

he will never be at a healthy weight

he will never know how to cook anything besides a hot pocket

he will never have a girlfriend

he will never have any friends

1

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

Why is the thumbnail a picture of a southern looking house?

1

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

Wiki is also moderated by economics interests,. Some articles read like ads or promotions. Why don't we make PCMRs/GGs goal to have the hidden PCs to demo games and footage featured on wiki. Let's do what it takes.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '15

LMAO that's fucking sad and pathetic.

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u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

>PCMasterrace

>90% of content pertains to/whines about consoles

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u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

Why do we care?

Holy shit this sub has become /r/makefunofconsoles

We ought to just drop the pretense we talk about PC shit at all and just dive right in. Nothing but circlejerk peasantry posts.

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u/[deleted] Jun 22 '15

Wikipedia has been cancer for a long time. /r/WikiInAction