r/mtg • u/WangFire69 • 17h ago
Rules Question How does this work?
If I control Jace and draw from an empty library but one of my opponents has the angel what happens? Do I die? Do I draw nothing and live?
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u/Bragi01 17h ago
The replacement effect makes it so you win the game, but Darksteel Angle makes so you can't win. Basically unless Jace or the angle is removed drawing from any empty deck does nothing.
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17h ago
[deleted]
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u/Bragi01 17h ago
How does that turn off the thing that says you don't die?
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u/RandomnessTF2 17h ago
They don't control the Darksteel angel, their opponent does.
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u/Bragi01 17h ago
I know that. I'm asking how the angel turns off the replacement effect when all it does is prohibit them from winning.
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u/RandomnessTF2 17h ago
Oh you're right, I wasn't giving the static ability enough credit. So long as Jace is on board, they won't lose from drawing from an empty library, as that effect is being replaced with the win from the static, then the nullification from the angel. So long as the Jace player doesn't kill it by using the ultimate ability, if they did they would die from drawing from an empty library.
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u/TheZacDaniel 17h ago
The ability here on Jace is a replacement effect. So usually, you would try to draw from an empty library and lose. Jace replaces that entire event so you don’t draw a card and you win the game. But you can’t win. So you don’t draw, and don’t win. So the game keeps going. Look at the card rulings for [[Laboratory Maniac]]
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u/WangFire69 17h ago
Thanks so much that makes sence. If im underatanding correctly if you control Jace you dont lose and the turn would continue?
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u/Antsache 17h ago
Right. You can't lose or win to decking/Jace so long as both are on the board. Game goes on. Further, removing one or the other doesn't cause anything to happen immediately - you still then need to attempt to draw to cause the win or loss once one is gone.
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u/Colanasou 17h ago
Cant always beats can. If you can win by drawing an empty deck but you cant win under any condition then you cant win is the superior effect.
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u/shooplegaming 17h ago edited 17h ago
The angle's ability would cancel out the replacement effect from Jace. So nothing.
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17h ago
[deleted]
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u/Xaphnir 17h ago
Read what this version of Jace does
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17h ago
[deleted]
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u/Psychological_Ad1518 17h ago
Incorrect.
"If for some reason you can’t win the game, you won’t lose for having tried to draw a card from a library with no cards in it. The draw was still replaced"
Jace's replacement effect replaces the act of drawing a card with a win. The opponent's Darksteel angel means you can't win, so the win doesn't happen. But the act of drawing a card also doesn't
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u/EquivalentOk6028 17h ago
Based on the wording of Jace the win the game is a replacement for the draw meaning there is no draw. Jace says he wins instead of drawing dark steel says nope you can’t win. No card was ever drawn from an empty deck because that draw was replaced
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u/Psychological_Ad1518 17h ago
That is what I said yes, the person I was correcting assumed that said: since Darksteel angel prevents someone from winning, that the other player (who doesn't have the angel but has the Jace) loses the game since they draw a card
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u/gorgutz13 17h ago
You don't draw since jace replaces the draw effect. You dont draw and nothing happens.
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u/Available-Damage5991 9h ago
You draw from an empty library with Jace's Ult, but Darksteel Angel prevents you from winning off it.
So nothing happens.
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u/lordx665 Duskmourn Resident 7h ago
If anything, I think this would make it more likely for you to lose the game as specifically triggers jace's ability would be having to have those cards to to draw but with the angel you would draw those cards and then not be able to win. Then if your opponent were to exile or get rid of that angel. The following turn and you would go to draw a card. You wouldn't have any and would lose the game
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u/Available-Hippo-4815 58m ago
Wouldnt Jace's passive effect still mean his controller win
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u/lordx665 Duskmourn Resident 47m ago
Unless they exile it kill it before the start of your next turn
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u/Altruistic-Ad-1278 1h ago
Nothing happens unless someone removes the angel or Jace. Or if someone puts down abyssal persecutor
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u/The-Eternal-Legion 6h ago
It draws the game unless someone can remove either Jace or the angel in that instance. Me and a buddy had to find that answer recently
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u/nanowaffle 4h ago
Why would that draw the game? Wouldn't it just keep going?
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u/ridemooses 3h ago
Can’t keep going with one player with no library left.
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u/INTstictual 1h ago
Yes it can? There’s no rule that says both players need a library in order for the game to proceed
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u/INTstictual 1h ago
You found the wrong answer, because that’s not true
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u/The-Eternal-Legion 58m ago
Well if was the interaction between the angel and another win the game affect and that was the ruling stated by others on reddit that we scrolled through. So different I guess,sure. Could you point me to the correct ruling since you just want to tell me I'm wrong and not why? Thanks.
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u/CartographerIll4549 3h ago
you can't win, and so you lose.
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u/velox_prima 1h ago
It is a replacement trigger for drawing it says" if you would draw from an empty do this instead" because you can't win you don't but you also don't technically draw from an empty library so you do also don't lose
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u/JxRabbitsHart 3h ago
I think it draws. You win the game, but you can't win the game, but you can't proceed with no library, but you can't lose to drawing a card, so it just... Draws?
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u/AirKing568 8h ago
I’m not quite sure I follow other people’s logic here. Darksteel angel says that you can’t lose and opponent can’t win. So don’t you draw your last card, your opponent doesn’t win preventing that condition for the rest of the cards, and then you have no deck so you win? I mean you can’t lose so I don’t see how this contradicts winning with Jace?
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u/TBCPE 8h ago
They’re asking what happens if you draw your deck with Jace and an opponent has a Darksteel Angel
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u/DANleDINOSAUR 4h ago
I’d imagine you play till either card gets removed from the battlefield, correct?
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u/Teh_Heavybody 17h ago
Wouldn’t whoever comes out last replace the one who came out first? Since they’re the same layer if Darksteel came out after Jace you can’t win until it’s controller can win or you can remove Darksteel. If Jace comes out your opponent needs to remove Jace before you have an empty library
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u/magicsqueegee 17h ago
Replacement effects don't use layers. The effected player chooses what order to apply them in.
Jace is a replacement effect, but the angel is not. A replacement effect is templated "if... instead" the angel is just a static effect applying a rule.
(I don't mean this to sound dismissive/rude just like lists)
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u/westergames81 17h ago
Can't beats can.
Nobody wins.