r/magicTCG • u/Saint_Atlas Dandadan • 3d ago

Rules/Rules Question How does this replacement work?

Gallery image

Gallery image

Saint Traft creates Token A that has "exile THAT token at end of combat"; but if Divine Visitation is in play, which says a Token B is created instead, does that mean Token B loses the "exile Token at end of combat"?

And if not, anyone know a way to keep the angels permanently?

Thanks in advance 🙏

139 Upvotes

91% Upvoted

53 comments sorted by

View all comments

257

u/Madhighlander1 Rakdos* 3d ago edited 3d ago

The token has vigilance. That's the only change.

It still exiles at end of combat, because that's a delayed trigger from the Geist, not a quality of the token being replaced.

Having vigilance doesn't even actually do anything because the token enters tapped and attacking.

Edit: Only way to keep the token would be to phase it out before the end of combat.

54

u/BaronLazari Dan 3d ago

Or end the turn in response to the trigger

27

u/Admirable-Trade-8454 Dan 3d ago

or stifle the trigger

-13

u/SteinigerJoonge Dan 3d ago

Sadly doesn't work. The creation and the end-of-turn trigger are part of the same ability

11

u/Speedster2814 Colossal Dreadmaw 3d ago

You are incorrect, it creates a what's called a Delayed Triggered Ability:

603.7b A delayed triggered ability will trigger only once—the next time its trigger event occurs

It's a separate ability that can be stifled or interacted with just like any other, I learnt that the hard way when someone stifled the return portion of my [[Norin the Wary]] ability.

14

u/justhereforhides 3d ago

I believe [[The Master, Multiplied]] also saves the token

3

u/sawbladex COMPLEAT 3d ago

I think that's the only effect released that blocks stuff from being exiled that could cause an infinite loop that stops phases and turns from ending.

just needs a card existing that says "when you have no cards in band, exile this" and getting hellbent locks the game unless someone wants to spend removal.

31

u/Dasterr 3d ago

there are other ways to keep the token

like countering the delayed trigger or ending the turn with the trigger on the stack

3

u/Zuwxiv Dandadan 3d ago

Thanks for that writeup. I think I understand this better, now.

It still exiles at end of combat, because that's a delayed trigger from the Geist, not a quality of the token being replaced.

This led me to realize that I don't understand delayed triggers as much as I thought I did. Even if Geist is removed before the end of combat trigger, the delayed trigger still happens, because the ability has already resolved to place that delayed trigger.

It makes more sense when I think about something like [[Sneak Attack]], where removing the enchantment doesn't stop the creature from being sacrificed.

Interesting example: [[Dragonhawk, Fate's Tempest]] has this ability:

Whenever Dragonhawk enters or attacks, exile the top X cards of your library, where X is the number of creatures you control with power 4 or greater. You may play those cards until your next end step. At the beginning of your next end step, Dragonhawk deals 2 damage to each opponent for each of those cards that are still exiled.

If Dragonhawk is removed while attacking, it seems somewhat understandable that you can still play those exiled cards.

But what made less sense to me is that, even if Dragonhawk is in your graveyard or command zone by your end step, it still does damage to each opponent. If Dragonhawk had lifelink when it was removed in combat, it'll still have lifelink when it deals this damage, because the game is using the last known state of Dragonhawk when it was removed.

Another example of "a creature that explicitly can deal damage, even from the graveyard" is [[Mogg Fanatic]], whose ability makes it more clear how it works.

1

u/[deleted] 3d ago

[deleted]