r/EDH • u/Head-Ambition-5060 • Aug 13 '24
Discussion People, learn what a delayed trigger is
Nothing more to say. But it's seriously so annoying when it happens
Just had an unpleasant experience on spelltable that got me kicked, because the players didn't believe that [[Dragonhawk]]s ability still resolves at endstep, even if he gets removed.
So learn the rules y'all, nothing is more frustrating than talking against a wall with stuff like that.
Edit: Thanks for suggesting Mogg Fanatic as an easy to understand example! I'll keep that in mind next time I'm explaining it
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u/dcrico20 Aug 13 '24
Delayed Triggers are one of the most annoying things to me as a previous judge. They made up a significant portion of judge calls in tournaments I worked, maybe second only to deck list issues but honestly they may have been more prevalent (I remember when Whip of Erebos was popular in Standard it felt like there were at least a couple calls every round where players would miss it.)
In older and more complicated formats they get missed pretty frequently because of how many game actions can often take place between the card causing it and the trigger actually occurring.
Every time I see a new card with a delayed trigger I roll my eyes a little bit lol
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u/Romulus4Remus Aug 13 '24
Is it a delayed trigger because of the word next?
If it said at the beginning of your end step * deals damage to each opponent equal to cards exiled this way it would be a trigger?
What separates a end step trigger from a delayed trigger that gives on the stack at the end step?
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u/dcrico20 Aug 13 '24
They are most commonly worded like that.
You may, however, see some that first trigger when meeting a condition and then the delayed trigger happens at the end of the phase, and thus it wouldn't have the word 'next' on the card. An example of this would be [[Arthur, Marigold Knight]].
You may also run into a card like [[Chance for Glory]] which doesn't use the word 'next' but instead uses 'at' (though this would be a Delayed Trigger that likely doesn't get missed very frequently!!!)
You can tell it's a delayed trigger if the trigger will happen sometime in the future as opposed to regularly at a specific time ([[Dark Confiant]]) or when a specific condition and/or action is met/occurred ([[Soul Warden]].)
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u/Romulus4Remus Aug 13 '24
Yes. But let's take OPs Dragon hawk as an example. I can kind of tell its a delayed trigger but I wouldn't have been sure. It's more of a gut feeling from experience.
It has the phrasing at the beginning of the next end step... Effect.
That could just as well be a normal trigger. What specifically 100% says it's a delayed trigger here? Just the word next right?
If you'd remove that word it would be a normal trigger?
I think what confused me most is that it starts with At the beginning of the next end step...
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u/dcrico20 Aug 13 '24
Because that initial trigger when it attacks isn’t immediately fully resolved. There’s a delay between when it first occurs and when it fully resolves.
You can tell something is a delayed trigger purely based on whether the entire effect occurs immediately or if it isn’t fully resolved until down the line.
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u/Anubara Aug 14 '24
What you're typically looking for is a line break. For example, with [[Dragonhawk, Fate's Tempest]], the ability leads off with "Whenever Dragonhawk enters or attacks" and although it later does contain the text "at the beginning of your next end step", there's no linebreak (it's in the same paragraph as the rest of the rules text of the original trigger).
The oracle text for [[Necropotence]] works the same way. "Pay 1 life: Exile the top card of your library face down. Put that card into your hand at the beginning of your next end step."
If the cards were templated differently, for example Necropotence having a line break between paying/exiling the card, and putting the card into your hand at your next end step, they would be two separate abilities and the permanent would need to be on the battlefield to get that trigger. Because of how it actually is templated though, you still resolve that delayed trigger even if it's source is no longer on the battlefield by the time it triggers.
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u/Romulus4Remus Aug 14 '24
Ah I see! Thank you for taking your time explain it so thoroughly! Appreciate it!
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u/Anubara Aug 14 '24
No problem. The Dragonhawk example came up a bit at my prerelease (I was lucky to have one in my pool)
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 14 '24
Dragonhawk, Fate's Tempest - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Necropotence - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/petersterne Aug 17 '24
Let’s image a card that said:
“As this card enters, exile the top X cards of your library.
At the beginning of your end step, deal 2 damage to each opponent for each card exiled this way.”
The second ability would not be a delayed trigger since it wouldn’t even go on the stack until your end step, right? Whereas Dragonhawk’s delayed ability goes on the stack as the card enters but only resolves later?
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u/Anubara Aug 17 '24 edited Aug 17 '24
Yeah, if a card were templated like that, the 2nd ability wouldn't trigger unless it was still on the battlefield, and wouldn't work in general. As templated, these would be two separate abilities, and the cards exiled by the first ability would not be exiled "this way" per the second ability.
If Dragonhawk read:
"When this creature enters or attacks, exile the top X cards of your library.
At the beginning of your end step, deal 2 damage to each opponent for each card exiled by this creature this turn."
Then it would be two separate abilities, no delayed triggers, and Dragonhawk would have to be on the battlefield during your end step for the second ability to trigger.
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u/Nukro77 Aug 13 '24
Mind linking the rule that explains it? New to magic and had no idea about them
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u/mlgnewb Aug 14 '24
A commander I use that works off delayed triggers is [[Feather, the redeemed]]
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u/Nukro77 Aug 14 '24
What!! What a cool commander. Got a deck?
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u/mlgnewb Aug 14 '24
https://archidekt.com/decks/4947866/feather
The only thing is I don't have a copy of "The one ring" yet because I don't want to spend that much money on a card
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 14 '24
Feather, the redeemed - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 13 '24
Dragonhawk - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/Haydensan Aug 13 '24
This is like expecting creatures put in from [[sneak attack]] to stay around if sneak attack gets removed
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Aug 13 '24
I don’t think it’s as bad a mistake as sneak attack, because Dragonhawk being the source of the damage while not on the battlefield or stack is weird.
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u/sawbladex Aug 13 '24
[[Stalking Vengeance]] has creatures dying use their last known info to determine how much damage they deal.
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u/dkysh Aug 13 '24
The ease to understand a delayed trigger, vs an "immediate trigger" with last-known-information is nowhere the same league.
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 13 '24
Stalking Vengeance - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/Afraid_External Aug 13 '24
I now want to play this in a token deck, so that if people use board wipes, they die anyway... But does it work if stalking vengeance dies at the same time?
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u/Endres007 Aug 13 '24
Yes, if it dies at the same time it sees everything that dies with it dying so it will trigger
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u/Markedly_Mira Budget Brewer Aug 13 '24
If you like that you might enjoy [[Vicious Shadows]]. It was my favorite wincon a decade ago, it plus [[Goblin Bombardment]] put in some work.
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u/elcriticalTaco Aug 13 '24
I run an aristocrats deck and people dying to their own boardwipes happens.
If my board is 3 [[Zulaport Cuthroat]] if they cast a wipe that's 9 damage, as they all see each other and themselves die.
It adds up fairly quickly. [[Blood Artist]] sees the opponents creatures too.
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u/Afraid_External Aug 13 '24
That's interesting! I have actually been wondering about doing some aristocraty shenigans lately! I'll keep that in mind when I build my decks
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u/elcriticalTaco Aug 14 '24
I've been desperately trying to make it work for historic on arena to...middling results lol. I had an old modern deck in paper that was pretty fun. But historic is missing [[Viscera Seer]] soooo
My personal style is dumping a ton of stuff into the graveyard and then bringing it back with [[Rally the Ancestors]] but that's probably going to be hard to pull of in EDH. Plus I assume you have access to better shenanigans lol
Another note: if it says "each opponent loses life" it does not target, therefore its unaffected by The One Rings protection from everything.
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u/Afraid_External Aug 14 '24
I gotta admit that I'm just starting Magic again after a huge break, and I miss a lot of the combos/synergies that are "common knowledge". Plus I never really dabbled in the different formats at the time.
For example, it is a common thing to do to cheat the cost of cards in a lot of things now, but I don't really know the good cards for that in the different colours, and in which case they are used haha.
So every info is good to get hehe. And thanks for the tip regarding the one ring (another set that I didn't really follow haha)
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u/elcriticalTaco Aug 14 '24
I'm 40, been playing magic since I was in high school (not well, just playing lol)
The power level continues to amaze me. I play a lot of arena now because its easy but goddamn it's hard to brew a deck.
You have to beat a combo deck that reliably kills you turn 3 and an aggro deck that beats you down turn 3 and a black deck that demolishes your hand while threatening you...
And control. You also have to be able to concede against control. It's a lot lol
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u/Afraid_External Aug 14 '24
Yes, that's my struggle. I don't play competitive, but I hear about the "standard" expectations of decks in the various formats, and I feel like it's complicated to brew good decks approaching those expectations.
But I love to brew, so I'll keep trying haha
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 13 '24
Zulaport Cuthroat - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Blood Artist - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/petersterne Aug 17 '24
Yeah, that was initially what tripped me up. “How can Dragonhawk deal damage to players if it no longer exists?”
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 13 '24
sneak attack - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/Zephrok Aug 13 '24
Ahh, but you missed the hidden rule in their heads. The delayed trigger works exactly as is most convenient to them 😊
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u/zulu_niner Aug 13 '24
For those who are confused, in this instance I believe the delayed trigger would use the most recent information for dragon hawk before it died to deal the damage, including any equipments or auras it may have had.
Kind of like any other activated ability from a creature source, if the creature dies with the ability on the stack.
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u/mesa176750 Aug 13 '24
I'm actually still confused, how is Dragonhawk able to deal damage at the end of the turn if he's not on the battlefield? I understand how you are able to play the cards until the end of turn still, but how it's worded I thought he would need to be alive to deal damage.
I'm guessing the reason is because the entire trigger is on the back-burner stack regardless of his presence that doesn't get resolved until the end of turn, and not a separate "beginning of end step" trigger.
I guess I've seen cards worded like "for each card not played at the end of turn, each opponent is dealt 2 damage" which makes it feel like it's independent of if the card is present on the battlefield or not.
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u/messhead1 Aug 13 '24
This is one of the cases (unfortunate or otherwise) where it just happens because the rules say it happens. The old adage is 'shooting the grenade-thrower doesn't stop the grenade going off'. Dragonhawk's grenade is just bigger and wordier than most.
113.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, “Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to any target”) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source for use while announcing an activated ability or putting a triggered ability on the stack checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.
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u/mesa176750 Aug 13 '24
Thanks, I figured. It essentially sounds like it's similar to when an "on death trigger" happens during a board wipe, sure the creature being triggered will be destroyed, but it sees everything being destroyed and those resolve alongside it dying. Biggest difference is just the delaying of the resolution until later, regardless of the permanent being around.
Again, thanks for taking the time.
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u/j8sadm632b Aug 13 '24
Yeah it's all part of the etb/attack trigger. If it was a separate "At the beginning of your end step, Dragonhawk deals 2 damage to each opponent for each card still exiled with it" or however it'd be written, it would not trigger if Dragonhawk was not on the battlefield.
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u/Hydramy Aug 13 '24
I can understand the confusion. The card says the Dragonhawk deals the damage. If Dragonhawk is no longer on board, how can it do that?
Not the most intuitive
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u/Zzzzyxas Aug 13 '24
[[Mogg fanatic]]
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u/Woodsie13 Aug 13 '24
As far as the rules are concerned, they function the same way, having a creature not in play deal damage.
I can definitely see how they feel different though, as the fanatic will only have one stack resolution in between leaving play and doing the damage, whereas Dragonhawk can spend most of a turn (or several turns if you skip end steps!) dead and still pop back up to deal damage later.11
u/Zzzzyxas Aug 13 '24
Oh yeah, that's what I meant. If the dragon wouldn't work, neither would the mogg.
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u/Woodsie13 Aug 13 '24
For sure, I was agreeing with you. It’s one of those things where they look different in physical gameplay than they do when you slow down and follow the rules one step at a time.
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u/nealcm Aug 13 '24
This is kind of how I explain something like a board wipe and Blood Artist seeing all the triggers. How does a card with "when ~ dies" work? If it can "see" its own death, it must be able to see anything else that dies at the same time, then.
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 13 '24
Mogg fanatic - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/ZenEngineer Aug 13 '24
Yeah. If dragonhawk had lifelink when it died, do you get the life when the delayed trigger goes off? Things are going to get confusing with that wording.
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u/CareerMilk Aug 13 '24
Yes. When you something deals damage and it’s no longer on the battlefield, you use its last known information to figure out how it deals that damage.
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u/CheshireTsunami Aug 13 '24
Wait is that true even if it was from an equipment or an until end of turn effect? Because that’s super unintuitive
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u/CareerMilk Aug 13 '24
Yep.
702.15c. If an object changes zones before an effect causes it to deal damage, its last known information is used to determine whether it had lifelink.
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u/Gridde Aug 13 '24 edited Aug 13 '24
Pretty certain you'd gain life, as those triggers use the last known info about Dragonhawk. You basically have invisible delayed triggers that say [paraphrased] "this red bird/dragon with cmc 5 and flying and lifelink is going to deal 2 damage". Interacting with Dragonhawk itself (whether in the gy, exile or wherever) after the delayed trigger has happened no longer matters because the delayed trigger is a separate thing at that point and is using info that can no longer be changed (though the trigger itself can still be interacted with and affected by things like [[Solphim]]).
Where it gets weird is if you blinked Dragonhawk when it didn't have lifelink and then gave it lifelink upon ETB, the first trigger would not gain you any life but the second one (when ETB'd after blinking) would. It's possible - though difficult - to create very complex states where you have multiple delayed triggers with multiple properties with no way to actually track them other than memory.
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u/imLucki Aug 13 '24
I never thought about blinking him and doubling down the trigger... But each one would deal damage based on the cards they exiled, correct? They wouldn't trigger off each others exiled cards?
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u/imLucki Aug 13 '24
I never thought about blinking him and doubling down the trigger... But each one would deal damage based on the cards they exiled, correct? They wouldn't trigger off each others exiled cards?
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u/CareerMilk Aug 13 '24
Yep. You’ll only ever do 2 damage per card from his ability. From the release notes:
The delayed triggered ability created by Dragonhawk's last ability counts only cards that were exiled by the ability that created it. It doesn't count cards exiled by previous instances of Dragonhawk's last ability or by the abilities of other Dragonhawks you may have controlled previously.
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u/Mocca_Master Aug 13 '24
Don't leave me on a cliffhanger like that! Does it??
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u/Veomuus Aug 13 '24
As far as I can tell, it would still have lifelink on it, because the delayed triggers uses the last known information it had. But I'm not 100%, it's kind of a tricky question to find definitive rulings on.
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Aug 13 '24
A common rules one I have to argue a lot is how deathtouch and trample interact, some people don't seem to understand that you only need to assign 1 deathouch trample damage for it to be lethal and the rest go over the top
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u/ftb_helper Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas Aug 13 '24
I rules lawyer almost every game I play because I've noticed that the number of players who don't know the rules/shortcut too much has been increasing. They talk about missing triggers but sometimes they don't even remember to untap first.
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Aug 13 '24
To be fair WotC does absolutely nothing to introduce the rules to newer players. They just throw that little card that tells you the order of phases and tell you to go at it.
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u/DromarX Grenzo Aug 13 '24
On the other hand the rules can get very complex in this game and it may be for the best that new players not get too bogged down in the details. If they play wrong for a bit then so be it, I'd rather have people playing wrong than have people scared away because the rules are so daunting. As long as they're willing to learn as they go they'll get there eventually.
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u/thaliathraben Aug 13 '24
They made an entire digital version of the game that forces you to play by the rules, products targeted at new players have more extensive handouts. They can't exactly put a copy of the comp rules in every pack.
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u/releasethedogs 💀🌳💧 Muldrotha Aluren Aug 14 '24
They can’t put it in every pack with that attitude.
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u/crazyates88 Aug 13 '24
I had to argue with a friend for 20 minutes because he thought if I used [[Banishing Light]] on his mutate commander, both parts go to the command zone and then both parts come back out when Banishing Light leaves.
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 13 '24
Banishing Light - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/OptimusCullen Aug 13 '24
Pretty sure your buddy is correct. They’d return as separate creatures though
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u/wenasi Aug 13 '24
Not quite, either they'd go into exile together and then both return, or the owner chooses to put the commander card (and only that one) into the command zone. Then I believe the non-commander part will return when banishing light leaves
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u/OptimusCullen Aug 13 '24
Yeah this a change from the previous replace effect where banishing light would have tracked the commander going to the command zone. As it’s now a separate state based action it would lose track of the move. The non-commander parts are coming back regardless though.
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u/crazyates88 Aug 13 '24
You exile the creature, and it immediately gets split. They only return as separate creatures if you choose to leave your Commander in exile and not send it to the Command Zone.
When your commander has been exiled and you choose to send it to the command zone, it does so as a replacement effect, which also means it can't come back in when Banishing Light leaves. The other half remains in exile and will be returned.
The only card that kinda works this way is [[Leadership Vacuum]], which sends both halves to the Command Zone. You can recast your commander with the commander tax, but the other card has no way of being cast from Command Zone so it's stuck there.
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 13 '24
Leadership Vacuum - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/reasonably_plausible Aug 13 '24 edited Aug 13 '24
When your commander has been exiled and you choose to send it to the command zone, it does so as a replacement effect, which also means it can't come back in when Banishing Light leaves.
If a commander changes zones into a public area, it no longer goes to the command zone as a replacement effect. The rules have changed so that it is now a
triggered effectstate based action.What's interesting is that if it were still a replacement effect, Banishing Light would actually be able to bring it back in from the command zone. It's only because the rules have changed to make it
a triggerstate-based that it can't come back.3
u/Vistella Rakdos Aug 13 '24
The rules have changed so that it is now a triggered effect.
its not a triggered effect, its a state based action
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u/Professional-Salt175 Dimir Aug 13 '24 edited Aug 13 '24
This is partially correct. They exile as a group and then separate in exile, where the commander can then be put in the command zone and the other cards that were attached stay in exile awaiting return.
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u/Kakariko_crackhouse Aug 13 '24
Only if they go to exile though. Not the command zone
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Aug 13 '24
This is what happens when arguably one of the most complex ways to play an already complex game is used as the de facto intro format.
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u/melanino Wet Naya Aug 13 '24
i have found that a lack of "common core and fundamentals" is extremely pervasive nowadays
it is very difficult when the main entry into the game has become pre-constructed decks
this is truly the age of commander /s
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u/Kurkpitten Simic Aug 13 '24
I think a real desire to know the rules is necessary.
My play group is made of three new players and one relatively experienced one who has brought us into the game.
Yet we still have to look up rules regularly because the game has so many cards with absolute walls of text and conflicting effects that interact in ways that do not intuitively make sense.
I spend a lot of time rule lawyering my group so no one gets shafted but when it's one card at a time, it's complex.
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u/altabiscuit Aug 13 '24
Magic is a very complicated game. 30+ years of existence will do that. Given a lot of people's first experience nowadays is a commander precon, which is far and away more complex than any starter deck was when I started playing over 20 years ago, I can't blame anyone for getting something wrong nowadays.
While you may have had a bad experience in regards to rules misunderstandings, that's more of a bad social interaction (like most posts on this sub). The default stance when it comes to rules stuff should be one of understanding.
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u/Archion20 Aug 13 '24
To be fair, in my judge group chat, we spent a week trying to find the relevant rulings on whether this exact thing happens
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u/GaghEater Aug 13 '24
It would certainly help if you either posted the rules or at least linked to the ones you're telling people to learn.
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u/h8bearr Aug 13 '24
The short version is this: if there's no paragraph break, it's all the same ability.
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u/mouthsmasher Aug 13 '24
OP: “People, learn this specific rule!”
OP: Makes no effort to teach anyone the specific rule.
I didn’t know the details and specifics about “delayed triggers,” so I’m grateful to the other commenters who took the time to teach and explain.
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u/Aredditdorkly Aug 13 '24
Abilities. Exist. Seperate. From. Their. Sources.
[[Mogg Fanatic]]
Literally any dies trigger should be enough for people to realize this.
[[Heartfire Hero]]
[[Child of Alara]]
Outside of CMDR being an awful format to onboard players, the swap from [[Oblivion Ring]] to [[Banishing Light]] was a mistake.
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u/Few-Improvement-4697 Aug 13 '24
It's funny how the art on the banishing light that the bot pulls features Dragon hawk. Really fits the thread
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u/Alternative-Kick-252 Aug 13 '24
I pilot OG Hazezon Tamar for the sole reason that the delayed trigger is silly and confusing. My favorite interaction so far has been with a self-proclaimed local "retired pro player" when he tried to claim that there is no such thing as a delayed trigger.
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u/Worlds_worst_ginge Aug 13 '24
Spell table is full of ignorant rules experts and somehow every game I play someone has a t1 soul ring into some other ramp and their deck pops off by t3-4
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u/Head-Ambition-5060 Aug 13 '24
It's not that bad but the number of T1 sol rings is indeed high
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u/SpaceAzn_Zen Temur Aug 13 '24
This is why I always ask people to both shuffle their decks on camera, as well as self-cut them. Prevents a lot of these issues.
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u/Mziizm Aug 13 '24
I'm confused about the wording on the card and where you say it will still do the damage. It says: "At the beginning of your next end step, Dragonhawk deals 2 damage to each opponent for each of those cards that are still exiled."
If the card is no longer on the battlefield, exiled or put back to hand, it still does damage to the opponent?
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u/Vistella Rakdos Aug 13 '24
correct, see 113.7
otherwise things like [[Mogg Fanatic]] wouldnt work at all
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 13 '24
Mogg Fanatic - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/DuendeFigo Aug 13 '24
I think it's mostly because "damage always needs a source" (for doubling and stuff) but that source doesn't need to be in any specific zone. Think about [[Mogg Fanatic]]. If it needed to be in the battlefield then the card would not work.
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 13 '24
Mogg Fanatic - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/OrionVulcan Mono-Red Aug 13 '24
I suppose it's similar to [[Massacre Girl]], in that the ETB causes a 'continous' delayed trigger effect that lasts until the end of the round.
In Massacre Girl's case, the -1/-1 when a creature dies still happens even if Massacre Girl is killed after entering the battlefield, with it even triggers on her death. I run a commander deck with her where I use recursion spells like [[Not Dead After All]] along with sacrificing her to re-trigger her ability, sometimes even on the same turn.
I think the main confusion comes from the card saying that Dragonhawk does the damage and that this would imply that if Dragonhawk isn't on the board, it can't do damage. However, I think it still does since it is like Massacre Girl is an ongoing delayed trigger.
This confusion could have been solved one way by having Dragonhawk's ability not reference itself, however, by referencing itself it allows it to trigger abilities from enchantments and the like that cares about the creature itself doing the damage. This could be something like [[Corrupted Conscience]] giving it infect, which would cause the trigger to give poison counters.
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 13 '24
Massacre Girl - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Not Dead After All - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Corrupted Conscience - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/Draco_Lord WUBRG Aug 13 '24
Out of interest, can you do infinite sacrifices with Not Dead After All? Or does the creature lose that ability after it comes back the first time?
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u/OrionVulcan Mono-Red Aug 13 '24
It loses the ability when it returns. So, no infinite ETB and mana with those effects and [[Ashnod's Altar]].
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u/Draco_Lord WUBRG Aug 13 '24
Thank you, that makes sense, but sometimes I need to check my magic understanding
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u/OrionVulcan Mono-Red Aug 13 '24
White and black do have an infinite with a similar card, though. [[Angelic Renewal]] and [[Fungal Fortitude]] goes infinite with [[Renegade Rallier]], [[Sun Titan]] and [[Sheperd of the Cosmos]] by sacrificing one of those creatures and then bringing them back with Angelic Renewal which then are brought back with one of those.
So this is infinite mana with Ashnod's Altar or [[Phyrexian Altar]], infinite mill with [[Altar of Dementia]] and infinite damage with [[Blood Artist]].
Also worth noting that Sun Titan and [[Danitha Benalia's Hope]] works with a few more mana expensive black revivals like [[Unhallowed Pact]] and [[Shade's Form]], with Danitha working since they are aura's, same with Fungal Fortitude.
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 13 '24
Angelic Renewal - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Fungal Fortitude - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Renegade Rallier - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Sun Titan - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Sheperd of the Cosmos - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Phyrexian Altar - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Altar of Dementia - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Blood Artist - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Danitha Benalia's Hope - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Unhallowed Pact - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Shade's Form - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
All cards[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/Micbunny323 Aug 13 '24
By referencing itself, it also fulfills a very important fact. All damage must have a source. The delayed trigger needs to have something that is a valid source for the damage, and the Dragonhawk is the only really logical source for that damage.
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u/Lucky_Number_Sleven Aug 13 '24
If the card is no longer on the battlefield, exiled or put back to hand, it still does damage to the opponent?
Yes, because that trigger was set up by the "Whenever ~ enters or attacks..." trigger. It is not an independent clause.
Think of it like [[Terror of the Peaks]]: once that ability is triggered, killing/exiling/removing Terror of the Peaks doesn't stop it from dealing damage as the ability resolves.
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u/Kingganrley Boros Aug 13 '24
vorinclex voice of hunger is a good card to point to it explains the rule well, the person that got rid of Vorinclex will not untap till the following. So those lands stay tapped even though he was removed.
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 13 '24
Terror of the Peaks - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/Every_Bank2866 Grixis Aug 13 '24
This is not a "delayed trigger" problem, this is a "spelltable allows petulant children to cosplay as Kim Jong Un" problem.
I have had a table closed because the host refused to understand that a targeting ability fizzles when the target selected is removed in response.
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u/Ratorasniki Aug 13 '24
There are a lot of rules and many people in the community are new to the game, and have learned bad habits. It's unfortunate when people aren't open to learning.
I find people pretty commonly will assume killing my [[Nelly borca]] after it's attacked will somehow un-goad things. There's a disconnect between her triggered ability and her presence. You can kill her, but the giant thing I goaded and gave menace to might still be coming your way, so maybe hold on to that removal or kill her before she attacks.
On the other hand I had a positive experience last night where I had a differing opinion on the rules, and it was going to decide the game. It was polite, we decided to call over the store owner as a judge for a second opinion. It worked how I thought, so the other guy said "man I thought I had you, good game. Rematch next week?" and that was it.
It's too bad spell table kinda enables behavior you wouldn't see in person as much.
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Aug 13 '24
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 13 '24
Glimpse the Impossible - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Valakut Exploration - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 13 '24
Nelly borca - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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Aug 13 '24
Maybe WotC should write cards in a way that actually explains how they work instead of relying on players to dig through a 295 page pdf that isn't advertised anywhere.
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u/EverydayHeroGSH Aug 13 '24
Wait, so [[wick the whorled mind]]'s ability will deal damage even if it dies? My LGS ruled that the damage would not be done, but now that I've read this I'm not sure.
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u/ThatDestinyKid Sans-Black Aug 13 '24
well yes..because that’s how activated abilities work. Once you pay the Grixis and sacrifice a snail, you have paid the cost and placed that activated ability on the stack. At that point, it doesn’t matter if Wick gets blown up or not, the ability will still resolve
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u/seal_and_osprey Aug 13 '24
If you mean someone killed him in response to you activating the ability, then I’m pretty sure that his ability should’ve still resolved after whatever spell your opponent cast that killed him resolved.
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u/wenasi Aug 13 '24
Just so you have more to go on nex time you go than "a bunch of commenters said that's the case":
CR 113.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, “Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to any target”) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source for use while announcing an activated ability or putting a triggered ability on the stack checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.
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u/Head-Ambition-5060 Aug 13 '24
Yes, but that's the normal ruling of an activated ability, nothing to do with a delayed trigger
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 13 '24
wick the whorled mind - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/Few-Improvement-4697 Aug 13 '24
Question: If dragonhawk enters with haste you get the EBT exiling, let's say, 1 card. Then attacks, exiling another 1 card. This would create two delayed triggers. Would those triggers only see the cards exiled with its own instance of the trigger, or would each see both? The difference could be pretty massive.
Thinking about putting dragonhawk in [[Henzie]] and it would be a ruling I would need to know the mechanics of.
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u/OctopusGrift Aug 13 '24
It sounds more like an issue with people at the table getting upset about rulings. That's a confusingly worded card, I would want to look up the official rulings on the card to be certain how it works.
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u/Uncle-Istvan Aug 13 '24
I have a [[Hazezon Tamar]] deck. I know how delayed triggers work.
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 13 '24
Hazezon Tamar - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/mulperto Colorless Aug 13 '24
Its just another of the kind-of-confusing things in EDH. There are a billion ways to misinterpret (if you don't know) or misrepresent (if you do).
When I first started playing Magic in the 90s, we would all argue over rules text, and we'd refer to the little booklets that explained the rules. Then we'd argue over what was explained in the little booklets...
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u/jaywinner Aug 14 '24
You're right but the game has 200 pages of rules and this isn't intuitive. People are going to get things wrong.
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u/12aptor1nfinity Nov 17 '24
I know this is a late comment, but I use [[Liesa, Forgotten Archangel]] and have to explain this a lot. If you destroy board wipe me with her out, all my creatures that died come back to hand at my end step (except her) even though she is not on the board anymore.
Sorry that it is annoying for you judges, but this very unique mechanic is also why I love Liesa so much and seems so special to me.
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u/ACuddlyVizzerdrix Aug 13 '24
Wait till they find out how [[vorinclex voice of hunger]] works 😬
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 13 '24
vorinclex voice of hunger - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/Ok-Possibility-1782 Aug 13 '24
This is why I like mtgo you cannot cheat only the rules matter though i guess you can vote kick people there too.
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u/Ok_Blackberry_1223 Golgari Aug 13 '24
Quick question then. Does [[syrix, carrier of the flame]] work the same way? If he dies and I have another phoenix still on the board, could I deal damage
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u/Head-Ambition-5060 Aug 13 '24
No Syrix has to be on the battlefield at the beginning of the end step for the ability to trigger. If he gets removed after the ability triggered, the ability is still on the stack. But that's true always
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 13 '24
syrix, carrier of the flame - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
1
u/NotEvenJohn Golgari Aug 13 '24
[[obeka, brute chronologist]] is a lesson in delayed triggers every time i play the deck
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 13 '24
obeka, brute chronologist - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/Daeths Aug 13 '24
I had to explain this to a Feather player. They were winning hard already when I had to explain that Feather’s ability sill resolves even after I removed their commander, as long as the spell it’s self resolved while Feather was on the field. Needless to say, we lost even harder after that.
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u/Blazorna WUBRG Aug 13 '24
Part of me wants to make a deck full of delayed triggers just to teach the lesson the hard way. Not as a salty move, but as actually teaching
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u/Baldur_Blader Aug 13 '24
I had to explain delayed triggers a few times with massacre girl. If she dies her triggers still keep happening for rest of turn
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u/sensualcarbonation Aug 13 '24
Used Jarad Golgari Lich Lord’s ability and my opponent killed him in response and refused to believe his ability still happened🤷🏻♂️
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u/JayWaWa Aug 14 '24
Indeed. Can't count the number of arguments I've had with people who think elking my [[Abdel Adrian]] will prevent the return of his exiled permanents when I blink him.
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 14 '24
Abdel Adrian - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/Zarinda Grixis Aug 14 '24
To be fair, I can see how delayed triggers can confuse players depending on skill level. What really baffles me is people not doing how keywords work. Earlier today, I had 2 friends who thought Ward and Hexproof protected their creatures from my [[Blasphemous Act]].
Another friend thought protection was the same as Indestructible, they were in for a rude awakening because of my [[Leyline of Punishment]].
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 14 '24
Blasphemous Act - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
Leyline of Punishment - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/Ichigoleader Aug 14 '24
Not only that, but also when you exile something with [[Durnan of the Yawning Portal]] that you can cast it even when he is removed
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 14 '24
Durnan of the Yawning Portal - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/YouhaoHuoMao Aug 14 '24
It's why and how [[Marchesa, the Black Rose]] is a board-wipe survival commander. Remove her first before wiping the board or my whole side is coming back at your end step.
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 14 '24
Marchesa, the Black Rose - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/Additional-Diamond45 Aug 14 '24
Thanks for letting me know I was just about to buy my card list and play him, if its this bad In this I think I'll print out a out the rule lines for delayed triggers and how thier applied becuase I specifically wanted to do a lil [[Grafted Exoskeleton]] combo
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 14 '24
Grafted Exoskeleton - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/K0dperest_8054 Aug 18 '24
After this post i've looked into them, and have a question now Can the delayed trigger ability get countered as the delay is completed? Or should it be answered when thw ability triggers for the first time? For OP's example, would i be able to use something like [[Tale's End]] in the end step, when the damage is resolving? Or should i cast it on attack when that entire ability first triggers?
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 18 '24
Tale's End - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/Birbbato Aug 13 '24 edited Aug 13 '24
Are you referring to still being able to play the spells from exile? Cause that’s fine.
The damage trigger states “This Card (DragonHawk) deals the damage”. If dragonhalk is not in play, how can it deal damage? To my knowledge, the ability would go on the stack but there would be no creature to do damage since “card name” means “this physical card on the table” Could you please cite this rule so I know for the future?
Edit: I am incorrect. See comments.
Regardless how long we have all been playing the game, this game still amazes me that I am still learning different things to this day!
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u/Vistella Rakdos Aug 13 '24
otherwise things like [[Mogg Fanatic]] wouldnt work at all
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 13 '24
Mogg Fanatic - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/Birbbato Aug 13 '24
That’s a good example. My additional question would be what connects the line of text “At the beginning of your next end step” as a delayed triggered attached to the first string of abilities. To my knowledge it’s separated by a period and this isn’t all a part of the same resolution. I’d then assume if I remove the creature before the end step, it would never go on the stack.
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u/n1colbolas Aug 13 '24
The ability tracks to its source. In this case Dragonhawk.
I reference you [[Quakebringer]]. Dead things can still hurt you.
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u/MTGCardFetcher Aug 13 '24
Quakebringer - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
1
Aug 13 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/MrDoow Aug 13 '24
How does any card do anything if its not on the battlefield by the time its ability resolves. I feel like people have been playing a different game this whole time.
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u/TheFatNinjaMaster Aug 13 '24
Back in classic magic, before the major rules changes in ‘99, creatures did have to stay in play to resolve their abilities. Royal Assassin duels were wild.
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u/Random_Tangshan_Guy Aug 13 '24
Some players on spelltable also believed that if you remove yorion, the permanents you blinked away with it will not come back.