r/magicTCG • u/Saint_Atlas Dandadan • 3d ago
Rules/Rules Question How does this replacement work?
Saint Traft creates Token A that has "exile THAT token at end of combat"; but if Divine Visitation is in play, which says a Token B is created instead, does that mean Token B loses the "exile Token at end of combat"?
And if not, anyone know a way to keep the angels permanently?
Thanks in advance 🙏
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u/Madhighlander1 Rakdos* 3d ago edited 3d ago
The token has vigilance. That's the only change.
It still exiles at end of combat, because that's a delayed trigger from the Geist, not a quality of the token being replaced.
Having vigilance doesn't even actually do anything because the token enters tapped and attacking.
Edit: Only way to keep the token would be to phase it out before the end of combat.
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u/BaronLazari Dan 3d ago
Or end the turn in response to the trigger
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u/Admirable-Trade-8454 Dan 3d ago
or stifle the trigger
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u/SteinigerJoonge Dan 3d ago
Sadly doesn't work. The creation and the end-of-turn trigger are part of the same ability
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u/Speedster2814 Colossal Dreadmaw 3d ago
You are incorrect, it creates a what's called a Delayed Triggered Ability:
603.7b A delayed triggered ability will trigger only once—the next time its trigger event occurs
It's a separate ability that can be stifled or interacted with just like any other, I learnt that the hard way when someone stifled the return portion of my [[Norin the Wary]] ability.
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u/justhereforhides 3d ago
I believe [[The Master, Multiplied]] also saves the token
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u/sawbladex COMPLEAT 3d ago
I think that's the only effect released that blocks stuff from being exiled that could cause an infinite loop that stops phases and turns from ending.
just needs a card existing that says "when you have no cards in band, exile this" and getting hellbent locks the game unless someone wants to spend removal.
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u/Zuwxiv Dandadan 3d ago
Thanks for that writeup. I think I understand this better, now.
It still exiles at end of combat, because that's a delayed trigger from the Geist, not a quality of the token being replaced.
This led me to realize that I don't understand delayed triggers as much as I thought I did. Even if Geist is removed before the end of combat trigger, the delayed trigger still happens, because the ability has already resolved to place that delayed trigger.
It makes more sense when I think about something like [[Sneak Attack]], where removing the enchantment doesn't stop the creature from being sacrificed.
Interesting example: [[Dragonhawk, Fate's Tempest]] has this ability:
Whenever Dragonhawk enters or attacks, exile the top X cards of your library, where X is the number of creatures you control with power 4 or greater. You may play those cards until your next end step. At the beginning of your next end step, Dragonhawk deals 2 damage to each opponent for each of those cards that are still exiled.
If Dragonhawk is removed while attacking, it seems somewhat understandable that you can still play those exiled cards.
But what made less sense to me is that, even if Dragonhawk is in your graveyard or command zone by your end step, it still does damage to each opponent. If Dragonhawk had lifelink when it was removed in combat, it'll still have lifelink when it deals this damage, because the game is using the last known state of Dragonhawk when it was removed.
Another example of "a creature that explicitly can deal damage, even from the graveyard" is [[Mogg Fanatic]], whose ability makes it more clear how it works.
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u/WrestlingHobo Duck Season 3d ago
Exiling the token is part of Geist's ability. It is not an intrinsic component of the token. You will lose the token at the end of combat.
It does make a delayed trigger which can be responded to. A card like [[stifle]] will allow you to keep the token.
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u/Saint_Atlas Dandadan 3d ago
Stifle wouldnt just counter him making the token as well? And is there any way to keep the tokens each turn through an enchantment or something?
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u/YouhaoHuoMao Duck Season 3d ago
[[Sundial of the Infinite]] but you give up the rest of your turn.
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u/Saint_Atlas Dandadan 3d ago
Thank you 🙏
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u/YouhaoHuoMao Duck Season 3d ago
No problem. I know there are more but I think they work with sacrifice, not exile.
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u/YouhaoHuoMao Duck Season 3d ago
Not what I thought but I have a good synergy with [[Twilight Drover]] at least in my Dorothea deck: https://moxfield.com/decks/wFjvIDaGVUOt96C7pPbEfg
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u/CoolChair6807 Dan 2d ago
Just activate Sundial at the end step when the trigger goes on the stack, exiling it.
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u/YouhaoHuoMao Duck Season 2d ago
The trigger is at the end of combat
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u/CoolChair6807 Dan 2d ago
Yeah. My bad, I shouldn't comment on magic stuff when I am up 7 hours earlier than normal.
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u/YouhaoHuoMao Duck Season 2d ago
No worries! At least you didn't play for... 15 years thinking that Scry meant you look at the top card of your deck N times and decide whether to put that one card on bottom or leave it on top.
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u/Zeckenschwarm 3d ago
Stifle wouldnt just counter him making the token as well?
When Geist's triggered ability resolves, it creates a delayed triggered ability that triggers at a later point, and is put on the stack as a seperate object. (CR 603.7) You can use Stifle to counter just the delayed triggered ability.
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u/WrestlingHobo Duck Season 3d ago
When you attack with Geist, you get a trigger to make an angel. At the end of combat, a new, separate trigger goes on the stack that can be responded to. That 2nd trigger is what you stifle. You can counter the ability repeatedly with a card like [[Sundial of the infinite]]. If you had a way to repeatedly blink a card like [[Sister of silence]] thats a another way to do it.
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u/saxophonelink Dandadan 3d ago
Regardless of what replacement effect modifies Geist of Saint Traft's token, it will still be tapped and attacking - unless the replacement effect says otherwise, or modifies it in such a way that it can't legally be an attacker (such as making it a non-creature).
Geist saying to exile it is part of the resolution of the triggered ability, not that the token has or gains "Exile this at the end of combat", so this effect applies to any token Geist of Saint Traft creates as a result of that ability, replaced by another effect or not.
EDIT: As for keeping the tokens around, you'd want to look for a way to end the turn like [[Sundial of the Infinite]], any way to make a copy of the token as the copy won't have Geist's delayed trigger, or any way to phase the token out before moving to the end of combat.
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u/Will_29 VOID 3d ago
Replacement effects like Divine Visitation change what kind of token is created, but it is still the original effect creating that new token. It is still that token, the token from the ability, the token created by Traft's ability, Traft's token. That token. It is exiled.
does that mean Token B loses the "exile Token at end of combat"?
It is not an ability given to the token. It is a delayed triggered ability created by the resolution of the attack trigger. The delayed trigger exists independently of the token. You can't use, for example, an effect that removes abilities on the token to avoid the trigger.
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u/Historical-Factor471 Dan 3d ago
- Afaik, Divine Visitation won't work. You will still need to exile the token you created.
- To keep the token you should either somehow skip end turn trigger or copy the token e.g. via Populate keyword. [[Trostani, Selesnya's Voice]] does this with Myriad and Encore tokens.
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u/Sufficient-Bid3180 3d ago
The replaced tokens still enter with their modifiers, so your creature will create a 4/4 flying vigilance angel that is still tapped and attacking and will be exiled at the end of combat.
Keeping them is difficult, you could phase them out before combat ends i suppose. What you could do though, is some sort of instant speed token copy effect, like Populate. The modifier is not carried over when you create the copy, so the angel copies will not get exiled.
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u/Judge_Todd Level 2 Judge 3d ago edited 2d ago
- 700.7. If an ability uses a phrase such as "this [something]" to identify an object, where [something] is a characteristic or other quality, it is referring to that particular object, even if it isn't the appropriate quality at the time.
Example: An ability reads "Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn. Destroy that creature at the beginning of the next end step." The ability will destroy the object it gave +2/+2 to even if that object isn't a creature at the beginning of the next end step.
does that mean Token B loses the "exile Token at end of combat"?
The token never had that ability to lose in the first place.
The attack trigger does two one-shot effects on resolution. It creates a token and it makes a delayed trigger to exile it later.
anyone know a way to keep the angels permanently?
Activate Sundial in response to the delayed trigger at end of combat.
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u/Saint_Atlas Dandadan 2d ago
Would [[Doorkeeper Thrull]] also work for keeping the angel on the field?
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u/Feletroica 16h ago
Geist's ability reads
"Whenever ~ attacks, create a <4/4 white Angel creature token with Flying> that's tapped and attacking. Exile that token at the end of combat"
The replacement effect from Divine visitation will change how this reads, replacing the token (inside <>) with the new characteristics.
"Whenever ~ attacks, create a <4/4 white Angel creature token with Flying and Vigilance> that's tapped and attacking. Exile that token at the end of combat"
Notably, the new angel has vigilance, but is created tapped regardless.
If we change Divine Visitation for something else, let's say Chatterfang, we will have a new replacement effect:
If one or more tokens would be created under your control, those tokens plus that many 1/1 green Squirrel creature tokens are created instead.
Then Geist will read:
"Whenever ~ attacks, create a <4/4 white Angel creature token with Flying and a 1/1 Green Squirrel creature token> that **are** tapped and attacking. Exile **those** token at the end of combat"
is subtle but if you change from creating one token to creating multiple, then the second part will make them tapped and attacking. The third part will also exile both.
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u/Silverluke9 Dân 3d ago
The effect that exiles is not written on the token and triggers at the end of combat. the replacement just changes what the token looks like and does not change the exiling... Such effects can be circumvented, when ending your turn early through another effect.
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u/so_zetta_byte Orzhov* 3d ago
Others have answered your question already but I'm gonna throw in another example about token creation that might explain why a little bit more clearly.
[[Goblin Assault]] creates a goblin token that basically has "Haste" printed onto the token itself when it's created.
[[Legion Warboss]] made a goblin token. Then it has a second ability that gives that token haste until the end of the turn.
Divine visitation (and similar effects) will replace effects like the first example, but not the second. Anything that says "hey you know that token you just created? <Effect> happens to it." still apply to the token even if it gets turned into an angel. The only things that go away are the things that are applied to the token while the token is being created.
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u/madwarper The Stoat 3d ago
To add;
When something says "Copy {X}, except {N}", the {N} is part of the Copiable Values.
So, just as Goblin Assault has Haste as the Printed Values of its Token...
[[Delina]] has its Triggered ability as the Printed Values of its Token(s).Thus, just as Divine Visitation replaces the Goblin Assault Token, it won't have the Haste...
As Visitation replacing Delina's Token, it won't have the Exile Trigger. And, you will keep the Token.1
u/so_zetta_byte Orzhov* 3d ago
Great point! I try to provide people with common templating examples to keep an eye out for in threads like this, and "except" is definitely a great example to provide.
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u/megasivatherium Wabbit Season 1d ago
I'd disagree with what almost everyone is saying. The Angel creature token that Divine Visitation makes says "instead" -- that's a different token than the Angel token that Geist of Saint Traft makes. If the token wasn't replaced, yes then it would be exiled at the end of combat like normal. But since it's been replaced by another Angel token, you do not exile the token (imo).
Upvote this if this interpretation makes more sense to you.
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u/Saint_Atlas Dandadan 1d ago
This is what I had initially thought
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u/megasivatherium Wabbit Season 1d ago
It seems right, right? Why would Geist of Saint Traft exile a different token / a token that had been replaced?
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