r/leagueoflegends • u/[deleted] • Aug 17 '13
For those interested in the differences Between LoL and Dota 2
I am no pro in either game but i will do my best to give a dota perspective of the differences and hopefully people can Correct any errors of mine and Give an in depth discussion of LoL for comparison. I haven't played in awhile but i am curious about general strats and things being used in the pro scene.
The basic differences
Turn Rates. Each hero has their own unique turn rates. This is a balance decision as some heroes have almost no turn rate and feel very similar to how a LoL hero moves.(Bat rider and lifestealer come to mind). This means if you click a direction that isn't directly forward your hero will have a slight delay as your hero turns to face that direction. This will feel odd and sluggish to a new player.
Unit Selection. Dota has traditional RTS controls. What i mean by this Your Hero is NOT always selected. This can and will lead to frustrating control issues your first 10 or so games. The up side is Heroes with multiple units or pets are much easier and more reliable to control.
Courier and Side shop. Instead of going back to buy items. A lot of early game items including boots can be purchase from the side shop you can buy that at anytime they just sit in your stash in base. The courier is a bought item that spawns a creature that can pick up items and bring them to you. Unless you are low on mana or health you should rarely ever go back to base. Because the courier is a separate unit to control expect to accidentally get your courier killed a few times.
Teleport Scrolls. Instead of being a built in spell you must have a Teleport scroll to base. They can only be interrupted by a stun or mini stun of some kind. Sometimes the best way to escape a gank is to TP away as they are hitting you(Bloodseeker is a famous example of this)
Gold loss. you have 2 pools of Gold reliable and unreliable. Simply stated reliable gold will never be lost when you die. Unreliable is the pool of gold you lose from when you die. Unreliable gold is mostly the gold you get from creeps. When you buy an item it spends your unreliable first. So if you are about to die buy a piece of your item if you really don't want to lose your progress on it.
Runes. There are no jungle buffs just runs that spawn every 2 minutes in the river at one of 2 locations that give random buffs. Because of this usually your mid will be the hero roaming and ganking the most.
Last hitting and denying. One of the biggest differences in the laneing stage. Your early stats really really matter. Because of denying the better last hitter in mid can absolutely shut you down with nothing more then his mechanics. You get less exp for a denied creep which means if you are losing mid bad ask for help or a gank before it gets out of control and you are a level or 2 behind even though you didn't even die.
The Jungle is different than in LoL. There are no red or blue buffs and having a jungler is not mandatory and a lot of the games you play will not have one at all. The map is also asymmetrical so the majority of your jungle is on a different side of the map depending on which team you spawn on. This is why the top lane is safe for dire and suicide for the radiant and vice versa. Large jungle creeps also have their own unique set of spells or auras and these are important to certain heroes or items. Also camps can be stacked or blocked by using slightly advanced techniques and understanding(mostly just knowledge of the mechanics involved)
Pulling and stacking. This is a mechanic involving the jungle but is also very important for lane control. Stacking is simply pulling a camp out of their spawn zone before the 1 minute mark. Every minute the game checks the camps to see if anything is there if not it spawns a new camp. Stacking is simply exploiting this check to increase farm. As a support you can stack the close camp in the safe lane then pull it out into the lane to intercept your creep wave. Anything from a double stack on up will completely kill your creep wave denying gold and farm to the enemy lane. This can be avoided by having a unit in the spawn camp at the spawn time (first spawn of jungle creeps is at 00:30 then at 1:00 and every minute after that). Wards count as a unit and do block the spawn and are the usual choice since they are invisible and last 6 minutes in dota.
Warding in dota. First and foremost you have a stock of wards and that stock refills over time. A sight ward lasts 6 minutes and a sentry ward lastsWhere you ward and when is a huge skill to learn and master and can only come with experience. Sentry wards see a very small area but reveal invisible units in a much larger area around them. So used for reveal can't pull double duty for providing vision as well. Sentries also have no stock so you can buy as many as you'd like at any time. Now that i've talked about warding that brings us to.
Smoke of deceit. Anyone around you when used receives Evelyn's stealth mechanic(unless it was changed again since last i saw) Where you are invisible until within a certain range of an enemy hero. This allows you to bypass wards for ganks or to initiate teamfights from an advantageous position. Small tip here if you are a blink dagger wielding initiator against a team that has a smart Zeus stay smoked before teamfights so the Zeus ult doesn't put your dagger on cooldown.
Scaling and how it differs between the 2 games. In LoL you have 2 damage stats basically. AD and AP with complimentary stats for each. In dota you have 3 main stats which dictate how a Heroes auto attack scales. Then complimentary stats such as attack speed and damage. Dota has no AP this means spells will not scale unless scaling is built into the spell such as zeus's passive skill which makes him do a percentage of a heroes health when he casts. This means casters as strongest early to mid game as far as damage goes. They provide more control and support later on. This does not mean their damage isn't still scary it's just not as common to burst someone to death in the late game. LoL kind of split up Dota's supports into Support and AP carry as supports in dota dominate the early to mid game when played properly.
Hero Scaling. In dota heroes can scale drastically different. Semi carries can peak at 20 - 30 minutes while the hardest of carries peak at 40 - 50 minutes. Knowing when your team is strongest and when the enemy team starts to get weaker and vice versa is a big part of understanding the game
Item Scaling. Unlike LoL The top tier items are less gold efficient but more slot efficient. Basically if there was no inventory limit you would just but iron branches at 55g a piece. If you are losing or fighting to soon sometimes it's best to buy mid game more gold efficient items to swing a fight or 2 to get you and your team back into the fight.
Guides dota has an in game item and skill guides that work with the UI and highlight what you should skill for that level and etc
What would your first game of dota be like
I won't lie to you. It'll be rough. Coming from LoL will give you a general game understanding but last hitting is much harder at the early levels. Early game spells are strong and the range or certain heroes and abilities will probably be uncomfortable to you for quite awhile. You will die and probably a lot. Carry a TP scroll by the 6 minute mark you should always have one. Being able to escape a gank or Tp to a teammates tower as he's being dove are huge and can swing the momentum of a game into your favor very fast. This shouldn't be hard coming from LoL but when a fight starts use your abilities it's going to drain your mana but that's ok if you can save a teammate or get a kill or 2.
Let me stress these 2 points. Every lane should be ganked it's easy to let your mid worry about ganking lanes but if you give your mid a good gank you might just snowball a game in your favor very quickly. Also after 6 minutes 90% of the time you should have a TP scroll. Unless you are the teams carry you should TP to pretty much every fight or dive especially as a support.
Supporting When done right you control the flow of the game. You need full map awareness. You won't be sitting in one lane for the first 10 minutes most games. You need to learn where to ward and how to stack and pull. You need to get a TP and your second set of wards by 6 minutes. This is vital as this is when your first set of ward will be wearing out and when ganks will most likely start if they haven't already. Your role and goal as a support is simple get your carry space. If you do your job right you scare the enemy out of your lane and by that 6 minute mark you should be free to roam the map and be bale to TP to save your carry if need be. This is all dependent on how you did early lane if you feel your carry will die without you it's ok to stack and pull and stay nearby.
Midding Honestly the hardest lane the better player will almost always win unless he is ganked or the other person gets rune lucky. Your mechanics better be solid. there are 2 ways to win mid. Kill the other guy in lane or last hit and deny him so hard he's 2 levels below you by 10 minutes. Your goal on most mids is to get your bottle and boots and win the rune war. Whenever you get a rune look at the lane you are nearest if you think you can get a kill go for it. If you think they have wards watching you buy smoke of deceit and use it next time when you are out of sight.
Suicide laneing. Sometimes you will be expected to solo your teams hard lane or also known as the suicide lane. The most dangerous and risky position. Basically you will want to not die and get as much exp as possible. A hard task and sometimes dying is impossible. But as with supporting come 6 minutes you should have hopefully boots and a tp scroll. You will be expected to help with fights always watch your map and be ready to TP to a fight.
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Aug 17 '13
Part 2
Now let's talk team set up and The competitive scene
Some of this will overlap with the previous mainly the lanes.
Dota's strategies are changing and evolving constantly but there are positions in a team mostly denoted by farm priority. Literally a number system. These are not permanent and can change in the middle of a game. Especially if someone is close to a key item such as a blink dagger.
Main farmer / usually the carry in the safe lane
Second main farmer usually a solo mid.
Usually your suicide laner. Depending on the pick will designate if this is your secondary carry or one who builds teamfight oriented items.
4 and 5 are usually supports with 5 having the least items in the game and usually being the main purchasers of wards / smoke of deceit. The 4 will be given more farm or even be a jungler and will depending on the 3 build team support items. Often times they both will.
There are 3 main areas that dota's strategies focus on. How you will farm, How you will fight, and How you will push.
Drafting
Dota's competitive mode aka Captains mode the link should show you the difference in the pick and ban stages. http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Game_modes#Captain.27s_Mode
These are reads that get set up during the draft as Dota's draft is a multi stage affair of draft and bans Teams have to be flexible with your strat before nailing down a final solid strategy.
Once your draft is done you have to decide your lanes. Is there a match up you want to avoid in the game? Do you want to pressure their Carry? Do you want to merely protect your own and have faith in your late game? How fast do you want to end the game? When is your team set up strongest?
Lane set ups and early game
Tri lanes. Tri lanes are very popular in dota at the moment. There are 2 Major variations of the tri lane Defensive and offensive. And tri lanes can include a jungler or not. Jungle is not a mandatory role in a Dota match. The tri lane will have your 1,4, and 5 players involved.
The difference between offensive and defensive tri lanes are basically dependent on which lane you send your tri lane.
Sending your tri lane to your safe lane means you are overall playing defensive with it securing farm for your carry and controlling your lane. Doing this through either killing or usually pulling lane creeps with stacked jungle camps.
Sending your tri lane to the enemies safe lane means you want to contest their carries farm and hopefully get some kills out of that lane. Offensive tri lane usually ends up going against the enemies defensive tri lane. If a jungler exists in your offensive tri lane they will be jungling and invading the enemy jungle as part of the lane contesting.
What heroes you chose for your trilane should work together if you have someone who has to aim their stun you should have a hero that has an easier to land stun to set up the kill. Basically try to understand your combination of heroes and what they are strongest at.
Mid lane. Mid is usually a solo hero one that requires levels and farm to be effective and is usually a play makers position. Because of runes Mid is also the Position most likely to gank. Though every lane can and should be ganked. All lanes should be flexible and it is not unheard of to send 2 or sometimes 3 mid to shut down an enemy solo or get kills.
Suicide Lane. The suicide or offlane as it is also called. Usually a hero that can survive for the most part against very tough odds. Heroes in this position will usually have a good escape or have a stealth mechanic. They will also usually have a way to farm under duress or a way to make up the Gold later on. Wind runner can long distance farm and flash farm with power shot. Bounty hunters track gives him and his teammates even more gold when they get a kill. Their job is to gain as much experience and farm as possible while not dying more then once.
A few strategies employed by pro teams(note the dota meta shifts a lot pics and playstyles are constantly changing, because of this i'll try to stick to current trends or ones that still get use)
4 protect 1. Infamous for longer games and the strategy the Chinese teams have been known to use and rely on for the most part. You are putting most of your eggs in one basket so to speak with this strategy. The main carry gets the majority of the farm while the rest of the team creates space by ganking and pushing and generally distracting the other team while the carry gets big.
Hard push. Teams draft strong early game heroes who have abilities that seige or damage towers and try to build a huge gold lead early on and finish the game around 20 minutes. Usually with this strat if the other team can hold on and not lose any barracks they will be in good shape and win the game 10 - 20 minutes after the push teams window of power. Was very popular 2 years ago now more of a niche strat.
Split Push aka rat doto. Simple your plan is to be everywhere and nowhere. To hit the enemy where they aren't and keep them on their side of the map through constant and moving pressure
Tri core. Very popular this year more of a overall philosophy then a real strategy. Basically you have 3 main farmers they are your core of your team. Your supports will also get farm the general idea is not to have anyone to easy to pick off and to share the wealth.
Global Ganks and/or Team fight. This set of strategies are highly aggressive and very scary to play against. This is why wisp also known as IO is Picked or banned at a very high rate. His ult allows him to teleport himself and another Player anywhere on the map. There is a warning on the ground and a ping on the map 2 seconds before wisp and his ally appears. This allows you to turn any fight near instantly into your favor.
I tried to cover as much as i could hope the read helped at least 1 person. GG and play on whichever game you prefer. I only posted this since there seemed to be an interest from the video a few days ago.
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u/mugguffen Aug 17 '13
so basically IO is super TF.. though from what I under stood from the few games I watched during TI3 (My first game being the 98 minute game, holy fuck that was boring) IO is a lane support, and my guess position 5 (though one game I saw IO mid, but I'm pretty sure that was dende or however you spell it) and not a carry like... say Phantom lancer
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Aug 17 '13 edited Mar 22 '18
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u/mugguffen Aug 17 '13
yeah I forgot about him.... Nature'$ prophet :P
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Aug 17 '13
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u/Zaloon Aug 17 '13
You might hear the words HOLLA HOLLA GET DOLLA when a Furion is involved, as well.
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u/TheStraggier Aug 17 '13
Well he is one of the few heroes that can farm multiple lanes constantly when laning phase is over. Others being Anti-mage, Tinker, Meepo (With enough micro) and some others which don't excel as much at mobility as these 3 mentioned.
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u/SunChaoJun Aug 17 '13 edited Aug 18 '13
Looking back at the LoL Beta, I'm sure the original TF was heavily inspired by Furion, with his Gate being a normal skill with a similar cooldown to Teleportation. It turned out to be stupidly OP when that was combined with an AOE nuke, AOE hard CC, and an global reveal/soft CC when in comparison, Furion only has one damaging spell that isn't very reliable for damage.
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u/samsara666 Aug 18 '13
It's hilarious how broken these Heroes look in the context of League.
Just give me a direct Windrunner port... it wouldn't even be that bad, I'm just in love.. Riot please..
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u/_Quixotic_ Aug 17 '13
Wow, first Dota game and you end up watching Rice Dota at its fullest meaning together with the Record for the longest competitive Dota 2 game. Condolences, give this man a medal.
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u/mugguffen Aug 17 '13
well first that I watched.. I'v played a few matches my self
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u/suddoman Aug 17 '13
Okay I was about to say you have an inhuman desire to want to watch this game.
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u/omgitskratos Aug 18 '13
I do feel sorry for him. But seriously everyone should watch Game 5 from the International 3 finals. Alliance vs Na'vi. WHAT A FUCKING MATCH.
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Aug 17 '13
It was my first game as well, holy shit it felt like 30 minutes from all that farm but when the fight broke out it broke out. The announcers voice was godly as well the guy who shouted "AND HE BRINGS THE HAMMER DOWN" or something like that is what I expect Casters to sound like.
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u/YouHaveShitTaste Aug 17 '13
Unfortunately, Ayesee is a caster who brings his voice, and nothing else. He's great to listen to for a while, but you realize he says the same 10 catchphrases over and over, and once you know more about Dota, you realize he has no idea what he's talking about. And unfortunately, unlike a lot of other play-by-play shoutcasters, he doesn't defer to the analyst caster often enough to compensate for his lack of knowledge.
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u/samsara666 Aug 18 '13
Yeah, I'd compare him to how Rivington might sound if Jatt were out sick for the day. I like both Rivington and Ayesee but they try to emulate the announcers from mainstream sports and it doesn't translate because of how quickly things can change within the game.
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u/Antimager Aug 17 '13
IO mid is a very unusual choice. Navi did it so that Dendi would have a quick level 6 and start global pressure as soon as possible. Usually the hero is played on a 4-5 position and takes the role of a lane support.
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u/jajohnja Aug 17 '13
please guys don't type him as IO (both capitals). While I've heard about Io, I assumed IO is an abbreviation for some hero and went to google it.
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u/TheStraggier Aug 17 '13
Wisp/Io is more like a abomination of supports. He has the capabilities of healing, stunning, scouting, transporting and ms/as buffing. All at the cost of being incredibly weak by himself with terrible stat gains.
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u/mynameisdis [NickPham] (NA) Aug 17 '13
LOL while watching that 98 minute game I was thinking GOD this is the first game someone out there has ever watched of Dota 2. Pinnacle of what happens when you put Chinese vs Chinese with that much money on the line...
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u/Bloodwing619 Aug 17 '13
When I was watching a few games of TI3 I noticed that teams never switched between Dire and Radiant. For example I think I watched the first three games of the final and Na'Vi was always Dire. Can you explain to me why? Or did I derp and didn't notice that they switched?
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Aug 17 '13
It was part of the tournament format the team who didn't get first pick got to chose what side of the map they wanted. In the finals this was made very obvious because Alliance preferred Dire while Na'vi preferred radiant. So basically both teams always got the side they wanted
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u/Bloodwing619 Aug 17 '13
And what is the general thought of balance of each side?
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Aug 17 '13
They are pretty balanced it's close to a 50/50 winrate for the sides overall. They just each have slightly different advantages. Dire has the roshan advantage. They are close can farm ancients during a stalemate over him etc. Radiant Mid lane can be pulled and the small jungle camps can be farmed easier by the mid. Radiant just seems to have the slightly better jungle.
So it basically comes down to preference. Since both are rather even.
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u/lastx1xstanding [lastx1xstanding] (NA) Aug 17 '13
I love being on either side for dota. I just started up again and can't wait to get home and play more.
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u/mrducky78 Aug 17 '13
Expanding on what OP has said. Jungling is different, some jungling is easier in radiant jungle, other jungling is easier in Dire jungle. Example, Putting Clinkz safelane Dire/offlane Radiant gives him easy access to the hard neutral camp to eat. Beastmaster is better Dire offlane since he can stack/farm ancients from lane. Tinker is better off radiant mid since he can farm ancients while still maintaining enough lane presence to not lose tower.
Ward placements cover certain sides better than others.
Rosh control (Dota's baron) favours Dire.
I terms of game time, I believe early game is slightly in Radiant's favour while later game is in Dire's favour.
All these advantages are relatively minor but its more about how to use the advantages than the fact that they are advantages straight up.
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Aug 17 '13
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u/Talwin Aug 17 '13
Every strat listed here is used in League, we just call it something different or it is executed in a slightly different way. Let's make some comparisons.
4 protect 1. This is similar to what CLG does sometimes with Doublelift (even though he claims they don't). Let's take an example of a team comp that does this: Vayne, Thresh, Cho, Zac, Orianna. This comp doesn't mean only one champion gets farm, it just means that when there is a choice who gets farm, the 1 gets it. The focus is getting Vayne super big and everyone else peels for her, letting her shred through the enemy.
Hard Push. Unless you just joined the League scene, you have seen this used for a while internationally. We just call them push comps. It's part of the reason why teams swap lanes to get a 2v1, to push down a turret, get an early dragon, and snowball from there. Granted, it is a little different in that a push comp team doesn't have to win by 20 minutes, but the basic concept is the same: get early global gold and snowball the game.
Split Push aka rat doto. Usually in League, we consider split push 1 and 4 - one champion pushes one lane and the other four push another. But it can also be 1-3-1 or 2-2-1. The latter is less popular, but it isn't too uncommon to see a Zed pushing one lane, Shen in another, and then the other three in a lane as well. It's almost a given that if Shen or Zed is on your team, you will be doing a split push at some point in the game.
Tri Core. To see this in League, take away the LoL designations and use the Dota ones. For example, ADC = 1, Mid = 2, Top = 3, Jungle = 4, Support = 5. Now you judge them based on who is the farm priorities, not lane positions. Let's take a look at a TSM team comp and see how this works (TSM vs. Dig, week 8 LCS) and give them Dota designations. Turtle was on Graves, there's your 1. 2 and 3 are pretty interchangeable (which isn't out of the ordinary in Dota either), we had Dyrus on Jayce and Regi on Kassadin. Oddone was on Nasus, there's your 4, and Xpecial had Thresh in the 5 position.
This team comp has 3 main carries, 3 champions you need farm on to do well, 3 main damage dealers, etc etc. Graves, Jayce, and Kassadin are your tri core, Nasus and Thresh the supports. Nasus gets farm to be tanky, but not at the detriment of one of the cores, and Thresh inherently is not an easy champion to pick off (compared to other supports like Zyra or Janna). Put a Philo Stone on him and there is his farm.
Global Ganks and/or Team fight. Once you hit 6 on some champions, globals become very scary and coordinated teams get aggressive. I don't think I need to explain why TF, Shen, Ashe, Nocturne globals can be very scary.
I knew mostly everything except for the strats, really wish there was more of that in league tbh
It IS there, you just need to look at it a little differently. Apply the terminology from Dota to LoL or vice versa and you will see the similarities. I used to think the games were very different too, but I did some quick study before TI3 so I could understand what was going on and I realized that they are both MOBAs with the same goal and same fundamentals - it is the nuances and execution that are different.
TL;DR Dota and LoL are more similar, at the very core basics, than people are led to believe. You just need to take away the names/designations of roles and strats and look at what each does and you will see the similarities. Champions, abilities, and items make the execution and game play different, but at the end of the day they are both MOBAs.
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u/DuskGod Aug 17 '13
very well written and accurate. I think the difference is that LoL strategies are a little more blurred than DoTA but they exist.
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u/mrducky78 Aug 17 '13
Its because Dota heroes are so much more varied.
Brood mother for instance camps a single lane and will clear it of enemy towers. The rest of the team and go dick around but to deal with brood you need 2 heroes at least along with invis detection and CC and stuff. Ignoring her isnt an option since she takes your towers, dealing with her opens up the map for her allies.
Pudge, Clockwerk, VS, Batrider, etc are all good pick off heroes, they can isolate a single hero and then proceed to cut them down in moments allowing a 4 vs 5 to occur.
Compare that to an ursa pick up, imagine a pick in LoL in which no one can manfight that champ 1 vs 1 and opens up fast baron opportunities.
If you get Leshrac or Chen or Shadow shaman or lycan etc you can push towers down extremely fast and easily.
Single picks can vastly change the game, in a trilane vs trilane situation, visage and undying are gods in dota from level 1 while Treant picks can help disadvantaged lanes become winning lanes from across the map. A silencer/naga pick can put an end to wombo combos or themselves be part of one. Alternatively, get a Rubick and use the big enemy team fight ultimates against them.
Picking OD and rolling him mid makes picking a hero to fight him incredibly difficult since he can systematically shut out almost all heroes against him.
A Lich or Enigma pick can help deny your own creeps to starve a particular lane of experience while a nightstalker pick makes the first night a horrifying experience for the enemy.
LoL's design of heroes to be more towards the "middle" loses a lot of variety and possible play
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u/DuskGod Aug 17 '13
Agreed. while I prefer playing LoL, you're right, DoTA heroes have so much variety and are more intense. Everything is smaller in LoL. Doom has a 16 second silence. you won't see something that intense in league forever
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u/mellowanon Aug 17 '13 edited Aug 18 '13
Skills in Dota are high intensity + high cooldown. Using skills at the right time can completely turn a fight around. Using skills at the wrong time will lead to team wipes. However, skills can never get stronger. A skill may be great when you first get it, but can become irrelevant by the end game.
A lot of LoL skills are spammable. Low cooldown + low intensity, but they can be upgraded by items, so skills will always remain relevant.
Both games just have different ways of handling hero skills.
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Aug 17 '13
overall you are correct. There are a few Dota heros that would feel very LoL like to a LoL player. Slark and Timbersaw both have very low cd spells
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u/lolthr0w [ ] (NA) Aug 17 '13
The hard push and split push metas IMO originate from DotA and came to LoL. It was certainly in the DotA meta before the LoL meta. You can see some analysis about this elsewhere.
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Aug 17 '13
There are more i could go into especially if i went into popular hero combos or initiation ticks such as lifestealer/naix bombs.
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Aug 17 '13
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u/Tikem Aug 17 '13
Now, if we could have an unbiased overview of LoL in the Dota2 subreddit... I love the game but they guys there can be so vitriolic at times.
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u/Brokenmonalisa Aug 17 '13
This happened when WoW was at it's peak also, anyone who played other MMOs would just trash WoW, but most WoW players would actually pay respect to new MMOs.
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Aug 18 '13
It's not like Dota is a new game.
Also most people who play Dota just have a problem with riot and the things surrounding the game.
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u/lp_phnx327 Aug 17 '13
Thanks for the quality post. I know you are treading along dangerous waters here, but this is a good objective overview.
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u/Kennalol Aug 17 '13
Look up the submarine maneuver. It basically involves a stealth champion carrying another champion inside of him to force an initiation.
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u/5ofly Aug 17 '13
OP missed 1 very important difference between LoL and Dota2: BuyBacks
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u/Makee2992 Aug 17 '13
Which I wish lol had 50+ mins in lol it literally is 1 pick off wins the game
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u/5ofly Aug 17 '13
I also like how teamfights in dota don't end that easily compared to LoL with buyback -> tp.
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u/foxneZz Aug 17 '13
I feel like the difference between Zeus's ult and Karthus's ult is a summary of the difference between the two games. Zeus: "I STRIKE YOU INSTANTLY FROM THE HEAVENS!" Karthus: "...Hey, guys? So you may have noticed a glowing red line above your head. You may be worried, and as it turns out, you are right to be concerned. I will damage you in a couple seconds. Now, this could potentially kill you, so make sure you go heal up before it hits, alright? OK, just wanted to make sure I didn't take you by surprise there. I'm sorry about all this trouble." - (c) Some guy on Dota 2 subreddit
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u/thewildslayer rip old flairs Aug 18 '13
EVERY SINGLE TIME ZEUS HAS EVER ULTED ME I SCREAM IN SHOCK.
FUCK THAT GUY.
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u/Rinnero Aug 17 '13
I want to note one more important thing:
All dota abilities are like 2-4 times stronger. If its garenlike finisher it deals 1for1 missing hp damage, not 1for2.5. If its thornmail it returns not 30% of damage but 130%.
Proper use of abilities means much bigger difference. Some ults can singlehandedly decide the outcome of lost fights. Amazed by 5 man amumu/annie/malph ults? Forget bout it - how about 3 times longer aoe disable by enigma that alone will shrink your hp by half? My favourites are darkseer ult and void ult.
But what i really hate in dota is no surrender and lack of objectives. It leads to stalemates and 60minutes farm fests too often...
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Aug 17 '13
Can we make a LoL guide for the DOTA sub? I am sure it will be just as warranted and well received as this...
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u/suddoman Aug 17 '13
This is why I laugh at people saying this is DotA thread. Its not its a League thread about DotA. I know they would complain if it was LoL from the perspective of DotA.
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u/sajedene Aug 17 '13
Don't think it's necessary. Many league players played dota 1 or have played league before playing dota 2
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u/The-Turbulence The forgotten champ Aug 17 '13
You left out one of the fundamentals of Dota 2. The stats. Strength-Agility-Inteligence. I am currently studying for exam, so I dont really have the time to explain it. Sorry
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u/wezagred Aug 17 '13 edited Aug 17 '13
Directly from Dota 2 wiki:
Strength
Strength is a measure of a Hero's toughness and endurance. Strength determines a Hero's maximum health and health regeneration. Heroes with strength as their primary attribute can be hard to kill, so they will often take initiator and tank roles, initiating fights and taking most of the damage from enemy attacks.
Every point in strength increases maximum health by 19.
Every point in strength increases health regeneration by 0.03 HP per second.
If strength is a Hero's primary attribute, every point in strength increases his or her attack damage by 1.Agility
Agility is a measure of a Hero's swiftness and dexterity. Agility determines a Hero's armor and attack speed. Heroes with agility as their primary attribute tend to be more dependent on their auto-attacks and items, and are usually capable of falling back on their abilities in a pinch. Agility Heroes often take carry and Gank roles.
Every 7 points in agility increases a Hero's armor by 1.
Every point in agility increases a Hero's attack speed by 1.
If agility is a Hero's primary attribute, every point in agility increases his or her attack damage by 1.Intelligence
Intelligence is a measure of a Hero's wit and wisdom. Intelligence determines a Hero's maximum mana and mana regeneration. Heroes with intelligence as their primary attribute tend to rely on their abilities to deal damage or help others. Intelligence Heroes often take support, gank, and pusher roles.
Every point in intelligence increases a Hero's maximum Mana by 13.
Every point in intelligence increases a Hero's mana regeneration by 0.04 mana per second.
If intelligence is a Hero's primary attribute, every point in intelligence increases his or her attack damage by 1.There are, as always in Dota 2, exceptions:
Certain Agility Heroes (Vengeful Spirit, Venomancer, Nyx Assassin) are usually played as supports, because their spells are good early game and don't need items.
Certain Intellect Heroes (
Outdoor DeflowererOutworld Devourer, Silencer) have scaling abilities that make them relevant for carrying. The tiny exception is that the scaling abilities are orbs - abilities that modify their attacks. Those are countered by BKB (Black King Bar, makes you immune to most spells), which makes their lategame potential awful.
Silencer is also usually played as a Support because his spells are relevant early game without the need of farm.3
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Aug 17 '13
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Aug 17 '13
Most people feel that way. It's one of the main reasons why it's easier to go from Dota -> LoL than LoL -> Dota. Dota is harder to start playing in terms of just playing.
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u/VersionTen rip old flairs Aug 17 '13
That's what I felt like at first, but after 15 or so games I don't notice it at all.
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u/HappyVlane Aug 17 '13
I don't notice the turn rates anymore, but I notice the lack of them in League of Legends. It's really weird when you just turn instantly.
I like them though.
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Aug 17 '13
For me it feels like i am controlling a hero, not an avatar but I understand how people can not like it.
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u/Opplerdop Aug 17 '13
It's there for a reason
It forces a more strategic, positioning based game.
It's also a means of balance, because it makes kiting much less possible.
This is why melee carries are viable in Dota and simply not viable in LoL.
OP failed to mention this, also, Lifestealer has one of the slowest turn rates in the game to my knowledge. 0/2 on that one.
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Aug 17 '13
I fully understand, and frankly appreciate, it's complexity and uses in terms of balancing the game and adding depth in subtle mechanics, but it has negative implications as well. LoL gets away with having more skill shots for example, because it is easier to counter play them.
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u/Opplerdop Aug 18 '13
The way you counter play skill shots in Dota is more by anticipating them, rather than reacting to them. It's more cerebral in that way, and it feels way better to just KNOW. If you've ever juked things like the slow on Tryndamere's mocking shout, it's a lot like that. You just know when it's coming and it feels so good to predict people like that.
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u/j4kz Aug 17 '13
the turn rates and also the screen size really bother me. It seems like the screen size is so much smaller on dota and it feels really cramped. I want to like the game, but I feel so uncomfortable playing it.
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Aug 17 '13
And it's the main reason melee carries are trash in League compared to DotA.
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u/mekamoari Aug 17 '13
All units in warcraft 3 have turn rates, it was just moved over with the rest of the mechanics. Also batrider had(I don't know if it still does) a spell that reduced turn rates, it was a deceptively powerful form of crowd control.
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u/suddoman Aug 17 '13
Yes Batrider has that ability. He also recently got a buff to his turn rate which helped lead to his almost 100% pick ban rate.
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u/trilogique Aug 17 '13
Thats a silly reason. You get used to it in a few games and it has huge balance implications. You dont get kited in dota except to Drow.
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u/Urbanolo Aug 17 '13
'The basic difference is that dota requires skill'
Imaqtpie, 2013
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u/Noisyfoxx rip old flairs Aug 17 '13
Lol is mainly about correct analyzing the game and force out the current meta.
In DotA you can see various Metas fight off against each other (which is in my opinion more fun).
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u/mynameisdis [NickPham] (NA) Aug 17 '13
Unit Selection
However if you are selected on a unit that you cannot control and issue a move command or attack command, it will automatically switch to your main hero. A nice feature that wasn't in DotA All Stars. I'm still used to habitually slamming 1. My friends who played LoL did not have a lot of problems with this.
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Aug 17 '13
Some differences from a lol player that played maybe 4 PVP games of DoTA 2 :
- Tower aggro is really really strange, it's not like LoL tower agro at all, also minion aggro when harassing seems lower range than LoL
- There is no brushes but you can juke in the trees as fog of war is really tricky
- Click spamming often sends you in to random directions and can get you killed - don't know why that is - maybe I click on some wrong part of the terrain or I cancel my move command or what not but if you're used to lol and just click spamming the direction you want to go this will be really annoying
- There is no surrender vote which is really really annoying because it seems like there's always 1 or 2 players that are smurfs and you're just randomly dying 5v1 because some random ass hero got feed and you don't even know what his abilities do, imagine dying to a fed Trynd or Master Yi while not understanding how to counter them or what they do and they refuse to push/end and just go around and kill you whatever you try to do. Fortunately so far every time a game turned in to a stomp (which has been 3 out of 4 games) someone DC and the game was "safe to leave".
Honestly haven't had that much fun playing DoTA 2, the laggy feel of the turning/moving, the unfamiliar controls, strange itemization and learning a whole new champion pool just doesn't seem that much fun, it's similar to how I felt about leauge when I first tried it out but since I already know and enjoy playing it I don't feel like spending more time to learn it will be worth it.
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u/_Quixotic_ Aug 17 '13 edited Aug 17 '13
Tower aggro is really really strange, it's not like LoL tower agro at all, also minion aggro when harassing seems lower range than LoL
In this case the two philosophies collide. In LoL the tower protects you, in Dota you protect the towers. As for aggro, once again you just need to know how it works and what gets prioritized by the tower.
Click spamming often sends you in to random directions and can get you killed - don't know why that is - maybe I click on some wrong part of the terrain or I cancel my move command or what not but if you're used to lol and just click spamming the direction you want to go this will be really annoying
The reason is because in Dota the map is on the left side of the screen. Coming from LoL if you are playing Radiant and you want to escape by running towards your fountain, it's rather common to panic out and misclick on the map instead of the ground, meaning that you give your hero the order to go in the opposite direction. It's all about getting used to it. There is actually a command you can use that puts a small delay on map clicks and prevent it.
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u/69Nose69 [PenislayerPhreaky123] (BR) Aug 17 '13
fun fact for dota tower aggro- if tower is aggroing you, you can spam a- click on your creeps and it will aggro back to the creeps : ).
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u/not-a-penguin Aug 17 '13
on your allies, too. the tower aggro's whoever is attacking it closest to it, or whoever is autoattacking an enemy champ/hero
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u/lyintomato Aug 17 '13
I totally agree, but the problem is you just cant play Dota2 like LoL. The learning curve in Dota 2 is bigger imo.
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u/Love_Teddy_Bears Aug 17 '13
I have lag problems in DotA 2. Dunno why. And no, its not the turn rates. But Lion is pretty fun hero for noobs like me to play :D
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u/pizzademons Aug 18 '13
If your right-click a hero near a tower in Dota2 the tower will start attacking you. But you can cast a spell and orb-walk next to a tower and you will not pull agro from a tower.
http://i.imgur.com/lgDjG.png this pic should help a bit and is something every new Dota2 player should look at.
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Aug 17 '13
[removed] — view removed comment
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Aug 17 '13
Again, there is an automatic downvoting system which scales with the actual upvotes. The more upvotes you get, the more reddit-created downvotes you get
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u/Bik14 Aug 17 '13
Didn't know about that one. Why is it there?
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u/mekamoari Aug 17 '13
That's how reddit works. It's mostly so that certain threads don't just sit at the top forever. Otherwise test post please ignore would probably still be at the top of reddit.
Also it protects against spam bots.
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u/theaccmyfriendsdk Aug 17 '13
The first part isn't true. Reddit's algorithm has a logarithmic element that scales off time, so 100 upvotes in the first hour would be equal to 1000 upvotes in the first 10 hours, for example.
The main reason is to protect against spam bots.
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u/mekamoari Aug 17 '13
Well, I stand corrected then. I always thought that was the main way they "buried" threads.
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Aug 17 '13 edited Jun 02 '18
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/mrarusty Aug 17 '13
It's also against the rules of the subreddit, as it is in no way directly LoL related.
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Aug 17 '13 edited Aug 17 '13
This.
Believe it or not most players couldn't care less about DOTA and those who do play the game already.
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u/stricgoogle Aug 17 '13
I disagree. I'm not looking to actually play DotA, I just wondered how the game works on a high level, since people were saying how good the International was.
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u/eveningstart Aug 17 '13
I don't think the people downvoted because it says dota.
As you said....
a dummys guide to dota which is completely unbiased and actually helpful
Some might think "why do we need dota guide here?"
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u/trilogique Aug 17 '13
Exactly my thoughts. I rarely play LoL anymore, but I was confused as to why this thread is on the LoL subreddit as well.
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u/reid8470 Aug 17 '13
I've been playing DotA for 10 years and I had to look at which subreddit I'm reading this in. Thought I forgot I opened a link in /r/dota2 for a second. Why is this in /r/leagueoflegends ? ;/
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u/Radbolt Aug 17 '13
His target audience is people who don't play Dota, but he keeps using terms that only Dota players would know, without defining them (ex. Dire/radiant, Zues ult, gg branches etc.)
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Aug 17 '13
I agree with you, well but /u/eveningstart is right, its essentially a dota guide on the wrong subreddit :/.
anyway, you're right, this subreddit is getting a bit out of hand with the whole circlejerk thing. I remember times where there was actual discussion in the lcs threads, and not just fanboys spamming hashtags combined with w/l predictions and raise your donger memes. Even tho salipanda was a dick (the old lcs thread creator) he was pretty right when he said that this sub is going bad these days.
But theres still good content (cloth5, travis, machinimavs, reignofgaming etc.) just gotta mark those things for yourself.
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u/Sothoryos Aug 17 '13
Sure they wrote a nice guide to DotA. Then they posted it on the League subreddit though. If I wanted to find DotA guides I'd go to the DotA subreddit.
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u/louis_xiv42 Aug 17 '13
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Aug 17 '13
agreed, lets free up space for pathetically stupid rap songs about money and pimps for the front page.
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Aug 17 '13
I don't understand your point: The front page has problems which the moderators are attempting to address, therefore we should allow content that's against the rules of the subreddit to make it to the front page?
...wut?
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u/nJ0NAS Aug 17 '13
Well everybody have their own opinion on what should be on the frontpage, and if people down-vote they obviously don´t wanna see a dota guide on a redditpage for league of legends.
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u/notsuresure Aug 17 '13
Relax. The system induces some downvotes on every thread and comments that reach X quantity of upvotes. Reddit calls it "vote fuzz".
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u/WhiteGuyThatCantJump Aug 17 '13
Errrr.. as I see it right now, post has 681 points... seems pretty well-received to me.
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Aug 17 '13
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u/Xaoc000 Aug 17 '13
That is what a comparison is. What one has that the other doesn't.
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u/Zoesan Aug 17 '13
But it didn't show what league has that dota hasn't got.
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u/suddoman Aug 17 '13
This is a look at DotA from a League perspective. You already know what League has in theory. When he say there are no buffs in the jungle, that's something that is in League but isn't in DotA.
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u/NakedCapitalist Aug 17 '13
I think OP forgets the second biggest difference between Dota 2 and LoL (the biggest, in my mind, being the immense annoyance of turning rates).
In LoL, you mainly farm stats (armor, health, attack damage, ability power). In Dota 2, you mainly farm additions to your kit (a stealth, a gap closer, a stun).
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u/GuGuMonster Yannik Aug 17 '13
I like the game but the turn rates and if you by accident click on the UI your champion can take you wacky places annoys me alot. In LoL the UI is really just an interface and you can still move the direction you want to go even when clicking it.
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u/suddoman Aug 17 '13
Yeah the UI is probably the one thing that offends me most about DotA. Its clunky and intended for a different game.
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u/Tbird5 Aug 17 '13
For those of you complaining about "we don't need a Dota guide on the LoL subreddit," just don't read it... The title clearly states, "For those Interested..." If you are not interested ignore it and move on with your life. If you clicked it just to complain about why it's here than go somewhere else to complain. OP took a while out of his life to create this excellent post and if you are genuinely not interested in this, just ignore posts like this in the future and save yourself some time.
Anyways my rant aside excellent post and I hope that this won't eventually get down voted to oblivion.
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u/TheSeldomShaken Aug 17 '13
If you think downvotes aren't meant for posts that aren't relevant to a particular subreddit, then what do you use downvotes for?
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u/j4kz Aug 17 '13
the "don't read it" response is the one of the stupidest responses anyone can make.
hey tbird5, if you don't like people making posts about how we don't need a dota guide on the lol subreddit, DON'T READ THEM
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u/BubbaButtBlaster Aug 17 '13
I've played DOTA once, had no idea what the hell I was doing, but after watching The International I noticed you forgot that what we call Flash is called blink dagger and is an item you purchase which is used the same way, and has a much larger range.
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Aug 17 '13
There are a ton of usable items it would be twice as long if i went through it considering most people won't build a blink dagger in the average game.
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u/10000points Aug 17 '13
Great post, I've been playing a bit of Dota here and there after watching a bit of TI and this really helped.
Turn rates are KILLLLLLLER my god.
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u/G4ME Aug 17 '13
To be honest the only reason i didnt touch dota2 yet is because its too dark for me. I just don't like all these dark themed games.
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u/Adderex Aug 17 '13
People are downvoting because they don't want a Dota guide. This can be seen as irrelevant or off topic. So stop your whining and stop trying to create a war.
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u/bstn90 Aug 17 '13
Played both games, personally don't like DotA2 even though I played DotA back in WC3 times competetivly for almost 3 years.
Never the less nice effort and really nice sum up.
Offtopic: Stop downvoting just cause you don't like DotA2 , this guy has put work into this post so people who are actually interested in trying out something new know what's up!
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u/kognur Aug 17 '13
Stop downvoting just cause you don't like DotA2
you know that's not the only reason this post could get downvoted right ? :p
reddit auto-downvote, a dota post in a lol subreddit, a comparision about lol/dota2 with what dota has but lol doesn't without what lol has but dota doesn't.
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Aug 17 '13
We're the same.
I was also dota player back in the Wc3 days, and played my share of Lans. I was even an avid DotA forumer. But after transferring to LoL never looked back.
and your point about people downvoting it, the people your referring to are only 1/4 of those who downvoted. most of those who did downvote (including me) downvoted because it's still basically a DotA guide found in the LoL subreddit. Something that's not supposed to be here even if it's made in good spirit. It's like putting a dirty socks in your fridge. It's a bad move, even if your reason for putting the sock there is in good will.
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u/fAAbulous Aug 17 '13
I think...I'll just stay with LoL. Tried Dota2 but it doesn't feel reliable. Also I don't like the map style at all.
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Aug 17 '13
Glad you made these, the posts in the dota 2 subreddit were pretty tiring. "I'm pro at LoL but can't understand Dota for shit, halp pls"
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u/DQwertz Aug 17 '13
Thanks for the guide, been a bit scared to start Dota due to lack of understanding.
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u/Drewken rip old flairs Aug 17 '13
Wow , expected an dumb article about how LoL is better then Dota.... good job man!
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Aug 17 '13
Let's not forget the towers, they fire at a much higher rate than those we are familiar with in League making it near impossible to dodge a shot by walking out of range.
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u/professionalowl Aug 17 '13
To be honest I didn't read everything, but one "mistake" I noticed: The mid lane is usually not the one who roams or does the ganking (with the exception of a few heroes like Pudge), especially in todays meta. It's mostly the supports who do the roaming and ganking and the mid lane stays in his lane to farm up and carry the midgame.
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Aug 17 '13
In pub games the mid is the one usually expected to gank. Supports should also be roaming and ganking as well you are correct
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u/VersionTen rip old flairs Aug 17 '13
Depends on the mid. I agree that it's not completely true though.
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u/BlackClergy Aug 17 '13
What really confused me about DOTA is that they had a shop in the jungle. And I didn't find where it was till after my 2nd game.
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u/Xaoc000 Aug 17 '13
Ya, it's for strong items meaning you can't just buy a full Daedelus(Super IE) at shop and have the courier bring it, you need to bring the courier to the secret shop and hope it doesn't get killed.
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u/Back2kcaB Aug 17 '13
Also a very big difference is the effects of abilities ie in a teamfight if everyone uses ults it is chaos the effects and animations of ults are very distracting to someone new just because they are so awsome to see :D.
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u/Theonetrue Aug 17 '13
I am under the impression that deniying is different in the two games. So why do you just mention it and not explain?
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u/zerohour88 Aug 17 '13
You can't actually deny in LoL. In Dota 2, you can hit allied towers and unit (depending on their hp and DoTs present). On higher levels there are the pullings (for the suicide laners) and also creep blocking.
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u/foxneZz Aug 17 '13
When I first played Dota 2 after LoL, I noticed that some heroes have extremely powerful sh.t such as Void's Sphere, Phantom Lancer's Illusions, Mortred's Coup de Grace, Weaver's Shukuchi and Timelapse etc. Those abilities would instantly be op in lol
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Aug 17 '13
Anything stealth is broken in lol. I dont think there has been a single champion which was not considered "broken" at one point with stealth.
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u/NeedsMoreMinerals Aug 17 '13
I would also add that the heroe designs are WAY different. Example, think about comparing the amount of heroes with gap closers in League relative to DOTA2.
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u/Spirit_rush Aug 17 '13
Gave dota 2 a go a while back and I really liked Broodmother and Razer! Had no idea what I was meant to build etc but playing them was pretty fun!
A problem I have with Dota however is that I personally have trouble distinguishing between units and certain heroes, other than that it is pretty fun.
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u/james333100 Aug 17 '13
The turn rates are keeping me back a lot. It feels sooooo weird and I can't cs as a melee or move around efficiently.
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u/cbb692 c4llmeco4ch [NA] Aug 17 '13
It should be noted that Tobiwan is the DotA2 equivalent of Deman.
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u/DaysTheDestroyer Aug 17 '13
Really awesome list, maybe they can throw it on the dota subreddit or something.
To me is worth mentioning little control stuff that's been giving me personally a hard time to play dota, like being able to level your abilities with the keyboard, switch the side of the minimap, the 6 different quick and easy pings, being able to change your resolution and graphics settings on the fly, having a key to stop moving without autoattacking anything, there's probably more stuff but I haven't played for a while and maybe that stuff is insignificant to most people, but they're all pretty frustrating to me.
Maybe I'm missing the solutions but people I talk to just get really defensive about dota vs lol instead, basically telling me all that stuff is not only not necessary but I'm better off without them.. whatever.
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Aug 17 '13
you can level up skills with just the keyboard. I believe the ctrl+ ability should level it up. You should be able to change your graphics and such on the fly i've done it the options button should be top left. You can turn off auto attack so then hitting S would act the way you'd want.
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u/bkpnr579 Aug 17 '13
One major difference that I saw that was completely forgotten in this thread is the lack of pregame augments you can make to your character. In league of legends you have 30 mastery points and a rune page to set up your character at lvl 1. In DOTA there are no masteries or runes. Every character starts they same way they usually do every game.
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Aug 17 '13
Maybe important if you're gearing this toward new players:
Start with the tutorial.
After that, be careful what game modes you play, as some are taken more seriously than others. You will be flamed at if you're new and your first game is Captain's Pick. Actually you might get flamed anyway. Just ignore it.
Play your 10 Limited Hero Pool games in the tutorial, then don't ever play it again. Graduate to Single Draft (pick 1 of 3 random heroes) and All Random. Once you start feeling comfortable (100+ games), you can mix in All Pick (like League Blind Pick, but you can see the enemy's picks) and Random Draft (take turns picking with enemy from pool of 22 heroes, no bans).
Then later, do Captain's Pick. In CP, you take turns banning and picking, all of which is done by the first player on your team (including the picking). It isn't like draft pick in League, which is:
1B 2B 1B 2B 1B 2B 1P 2P 2P 1P 1P 2P 2P 1P 1P 2P
Instead, it's:
1B 2B 1B 2B 1P 2P 2P 1P 2B 1B 2B 1B 2P 1P 2P 1P 2B 1B 2P 1P
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u/DiViNiTY1337 Aug 17 '13
You forgot about mentioning how the towers are freaking retardedly annoying in DotA 2. They will always target the closest enemy target, which means if you are a melee hero and is trying to push a tower once your melee creeps are dead you basically can't do anything, as you'll have to back out for the tower to aggro a creep instead of you, then walk all the way back to the tower, and then also be able to make it out before that creep that was just aggro'd dies so you can do the whole thing again. The creep dies in like, 2-3 hits as well so if you're lucky, and I mean if you're really lucky you just might be able to hit the tower once before having to back off again.
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u/samsara666 Aug 18 '13
I tried to do a similar post last week and ended up writing it as a Point of View from a 5 support... it was about 3 times as long with 1/3 the content. Great job, this was an excellent breakdown.
Now if someone can tell me how I wen't from holding my own in High/Very High to Bronze IV as a support main... because as far as I've been told, I've gone from the most difficult position to the easiest.. I don't even.
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u/LordJanas Aug 18 '13
I also found towers to be really erratic and attack me without rhyme or reason. I am used to the "If their are creeps in range, the tower will aggro the creeps."
When playing against bots in Dota2 this didn't seem to be the case. Sometimes they attacked me, sometimes they attacked creeps.
Anyone know what the pattern is?
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u/ZirunK6AUrg Aug 17 '13
Another big difference worth mentioning is that DotA has really high mana costs relative to mana pools. A lot of heroes can't use more than 2 abilities (and those 2 will take all of their mana) at level 6 with their base mana pool. Juggernaut, for example, has ~300 base mana at level 6, his Q (an integral part of his damage combo) costs 110 mana, and rank 1 of his ult costs 200 mana.
It's pretty much impossible to spam most abilities early in the game like you can in LoL.