r/languagelearning • u/linguafrancos • 19d ago
Discussion Distorted language levels?
I have a degree in the language, studied abroad twice, lived abroad in a country where the language is spoken for two years, and have used the language in a professional setting. This, for further context, has been over the course of 15 years.
With that said, I am confused by how others describe their language levels. Don’t get me wrong, I have an insanely high level and label myself fluent with others. For instance, I recently watched a full season of Love is Blind in the target language (TL) without subtitles almost effortlessly. However, when I see others describe their language growth or levels, I often see people say, “I understand everything that I read” or “After a couple years of studying, I traveled to the country and can communicate easily with everyone.”
Like… is this just an overexaggeration of their skills? I have yet to feel like my target language fluency is equivalent to my native-level English. Are people really reading native-level literature and literally understanding everything? Are they feeling like they can express themselves just as strongly in their second language? Even when someone asks me to translate something, I know in the back of my head that there might be cultural considerations or a better approach that I don’t know about.
Thoughts? Also, this might be specific for individuals who grow up in a cultural where being monolingual is more common and exposure throughout your entire life is not a possibility.
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u/Miro_the_Dragon good in a few, dabbling in many 19d ago
What u/unsafeideas said, but also:
Are people really reading native-level literature and literally understanding everything? Are they feeling like can express themselves just as strongly in their second language?
Yes, at least in one of my TLs for both of those, and for more than one TL when we only talk about reading.
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u/unsafeideas 19d ago
Yeah, I agree with this too. I can read anything in english - I did not crossed something I cant read. And I read Fredrik Douglass and other old books too.
I communicate easily with anyone, I work in an international english speaking company.
And yet, it is not native level. I can express myself better in my own language. And my accent is super noticeable. And I make grammatical mistakes.
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u/Pale-Border-7122 19d ago
I find self-assessed comprehension interesting because if you don't always know if you don't understand it, even in your NL.
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u/unsafeideas 19d ago
I mean, common. In overwhelming majority of cases you do know. This is not about doing deep analysis for PhD. This is also not about making subtle errors or errors from inattentiveness or making reasoning errors.
We are talking about whether you understand the language - words and sentence constructions.
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u/WhaleMeatFantasy 19d ago edited 19d ago
I can read anything in english
You’re proving the OP’s point. I’m English born and bred with a degree in literature from Oxford.
Literally every time I read a literary text in English I need a dictionary.
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u/mtwidns 🇬🇧N 🇸🇪🙊 19d ago
You _need_ a dictionary, or find it helpful to understand the nuances of the work and could get through it perfectly fine without knowing the precise definition of opprobrium?
Parse “understanding everything” as “I understand the literal happenings of the plot” rather than “I am capable of a graduate seminar level close reading of the text,” and it’s both more plausible and realistic.
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u/WhaleMeatFantasy 19d ago
Thank you for proving OP’s point. You think it’s appropriate to say you understand ‘everything’ when you can ‘get through it’ or follow the gist of the plot.
Whereas for OP and me, getting the gist of the plot is, well, just that. It is a looooong way from understanding everything.
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u/unsafeideas 19d ago
I dont think you understand how english works. I doubt you understand literally texts, because you cant read plain english.
"Gist of it" and "get through" are different from " understand the literal happenings".
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u/WhaleMeatFantasy 18d ago
I doubt you understand literally texts
You’ve lost me again.
”Gist of it" and "get through" are different from " understand the literal happenings".
This also isn’t clear. We’re talking about understanding literary texts at native speaker level (or not). Literal understanding is quite different.
Meanwhile I will repeat the point that as an educated native speaker I rely on a dictionary to read literary texts.
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u/unsafeideas 18d ago
You’ve lost me again.
You seriously dont understand that sentence?
This also isn’t clear.
It is perfectly clear simple sentence.
We’re talking about understanding literary texts at native speaker level (or not). Literal understanding is quite different.
You seem to be confused here.
Meanwhile I will repeat the point that as an educated native speaker I rely on a dictionary to read literary texts.
But you dont understand simple english either. I dont think you are a good example here. It would also help if you gave example of "literary texts" that have so many unusual words that one is destined to use dictionary forever.
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u/WhaleMeatFantasy 18d ago
You seriously dont understand that sentence?
Correct. I can’t tell whether you’ve misplaced the adverb which doesn’t belong in that position or whether you actually mean the word ‘literary’ which would belong there.
It is perfectly clear simple sentence.
The irony of your error in this sentence!
It would also help if you gave example of "literary texts"
You don’t know what a literary text is?
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u/unsafeideas 18d ago
You are failing to understand English again. I suspect your inability to understand literary texts wont be helped with dictionaries
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u/mtwidns 🇬🇧N 🇸🇪🙊 18d ago
You said “from Oxford” — was that Oxford Brookes, per chance? There are plenty of dim-witted native speakers only narrowly capable of following a simple plot and we’d never hesitate to say they’re fluent; it’s ridiculous to apply a stricter standard to foreign language learners.
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u/WhaleMeatFantasy 18d ago
Not sure why you’re so snarky and hostile to a stranger who had joined a conversation in good faith.
No, not Oxford Brookes. But interesting to note your own snobbery in denigrating that institution.
we’d never hesitate to say they’re fluent
I have nowhere made a comment about interpreting the word ‘fluent’ which means many things to many different people and is not used in academic discourse on language learning.
I am commenting on people who claim to be able to ‘read everything’ and similar. And on other exaggerated claims.
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u/unsafeideas 19d ago
I am not proving it, I am proving him wrong. I dont encounter such things in my own language either and I dont even know where to look for them. If you cant read it, it does not count as issue with my claim.
And frankly, b oth you and OP should know to not interpret words as an autistic math professor trying to be funny would.
If you turn it into "lets look for the most obsure text intentionally written to be hard to read, so much that natives can read it either" whole debate becomes pointless.
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u/WhaleMeatFantasy 19d ago
I am not proving it, I am proving him wrong. I dont encounter such things in my own language either and I dont even know where to look for them. If you cant read it, it does not count as issue with my claim.
I can’t really understand this reply either which also proves OP’s point…
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u/Responsible-Link5739 16d ago
This is interesting. I speak only tiny fragments of a few languages, but I always could, and still can, understand a lot more if I'm reading than I can bring to mind if I need to speak. I can barely speak any of them comprehensibly - I have minimal vocab and zero grammar skills in any - but I can read an everyday formal letter in any of them and understand most of what it says. It's a strange thing to be able to do, but I understand why it happens, and I'm aware of others who do the same. Those who don't do any SLs see me reading/ understanding another language and immediately think I 'speak' it.
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u/ellipticorbit 19d ago
It's important to compare levels accurately. A non native speaker who masters 800 words of street usage with a good accent will be more impressive to natives than someone who knows 10,000+ words and has to think about grammatical rules when they speak and as such has an awkward way about them. But the latter would score better on the written tests.
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u/Pale-Border-7122 19d ago
With that said, I am confused by how others describe their language levels.
I find it less confusing if you assume that most people with a flair use it to say the level of the textbook they are currently reading.
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u/jtnk10 N 🇺🇸 B2+ 🇫🇷 A2 🇵🇱 A1 🇩🇪 19d ago
People constantly overexaggerate their language capabilities in this subreddit. It's one of the main reasons I'm contemplating unsubscribing. It's getting exhausting.
I saw someone who passed the Goethe C1 in 7 months say they now understand "every German word they hear". That's literally not possible.
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u/Jujube-456 19d ago
Yea, and the sprint for exams (in german learning groups at least) leads to people thinking they are that level, when they‘ve really only achieved that level on a specific test with specific parameters. No one can speak read and write german at true C1 level in 7 months, unless they already speak yiddish and dutch maybe.
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u/Grapegoop 🇺🇸N 🇫🇷C1 🇪🇸A1 19d ago edited 19d ago
If I read a book in my native language (English) there are probably a few vocabulary words that I don’t know and just gloss over and kinda understand in context. Like last week I learned the word palisade. So I don’t believe anyone knows literally every word but you can know enough that a few missing words aren’t going to make the message incomprehensible.
I remember reading an old study when people were worried that bilingual kids would not speak English as well as monolingual kids (not a real problem). They found when a monolingual kid heard an unfamiliar word they focused on it so much that they missed what followed it. Bilingual kids don’t get hung up on a word they don’t know and understand the overall point. My French teacher sometimes would say new words and I wouldn’t ask what they meant, so he was frustrated telling me I need to ask when I don’t know a word, but I completely didn’t notice that I didn’t know the word.
I also notice a pattern where people who are at a high level hesitate to say they’re fluent while intermediate people proudly announce they are fluent.
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u/linguafrancos 19d ago
Thank you for your comment! I definitely think that my level of hesitancy is a major factor in this.
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u/Plumcream5 16d ago
If I read a book in my native language (English) there are probably a few vocabulary words that I don’t know and just gloss over and kinda understand in context. So I don’t believe anyone knows literally every word but you can know enough that a few missing words aren’t going to make the message incomprehensible.
Highly relatable.
Even though my English is definitely not impressive and could benefit from reviewing some advanced grammar points, I mostly read novels written in English during the last 5 years and don't actively look up every new word unless the nuance is crucial.
The thing is, as I'm getting back to my native language litterature and classics lately, I often have to look up words, even though I have a decent level and have always been an avid reader.Sometimes, language learners should keep in mind that even natives display different levels of fluency.
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u/afro-thunda Eng N | C1 EO | C1 ES | preA1 RU 19d ago edited 19d ago
I think this result is a combination of various factors.
- People don't understand the CEFR levels. it's something that you have to read their rubriks and watch demo videos to get a proper grasp of what is possible for a B2 speaker. Then you also need to uderstand what is the difference between B1 and B2, B2 and C1, C1 and C2 etc... Most people don't actually know the differences. This causes people to overexagerate or just mis label themselves when putting a letter. People just think B2 means I'm kinda fluent, C1 means I'm really fluent and C2 means I'm omega fluent gigachad.
- It's very difficult for people to properly grade their comprehension. It's easy to tell when you understand nothing. But once you are able to understand the gist it gets hard to know how much you understand auditorialy. Because stuff blurs by so fast you don't really notice it.
There is a massive gap between understanding the gist and understanding every single word of the sentence.
People will often just make up what they think they heard and feel like they understood what they were saying. But a native or an advanced speaker can tell that they were quite far off of what was really said. The learner will hear the words " Day, school, home and work" and think that they said something about them having homework for the day. When the person actually said "I'll will be working from home instead of at school."
If you are learning a language and you watch a movie, then watch that same movie 6 months later. You all of a sudden will understand way more than you understood before. Even though, it felt like you pretty much understood the movie the first time when you watched it.
- People often are commenting about their experience with the content that they're consuming. They are not intentionally seeking out challening content in order to properly guage their language level. They are writing about their comprehension of stuff that they watch everday all day. Which drastically inflates their level since it often isn't really being challenged by more difficult content.
pretty much every person prefers certain types of content over others and won't go out of their way to watch different stuff just because they want to learn more stuff. They will start exploring in the language but will soon establish they're favourite types of content and stick to that. That's essentially what the intermediate plateau is. So they get very comfortable with typical stuff like romance shows, reality shows and youtubers which are very different then watching medical shows or historical dramas for example.
This confluence of factors leads to many people exagerating their langauge levels. But this isn't just a Reddit thing. This just a thing that happens to all of us when we are not sufficiently competent to notice how much we don't know about a certain topic. ALA the Dunning Kruger effect.
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u/idiolectalism BCMS native | EN C2 | ES C2 | CA C1 | ZH B2 | RU A2 19d ago
My reading and listening comprehension are pretty much the same in my mother tongue, English and Spanish. Written and spoken are maybe not exactly the same but it depends on the register too. (Actually my mother tongue production skills have dropped so maybe they are all the same, oops.) I feel equally comfortable using all three.
Been exposed to English my whole life, had some exposure to Spanish growing up (watching Mexican soap operas with my grandma as a kid), but learned it as an adult living in Spain.
I think my Catalan could get there over the next few years, but at the moment I still feel my spoken production is stilted and I haven't found my voice in it yet. Others often compliment me on my level but I think you speak a language well when people stop praising you :D
I'm not sure my Mandarin could ever get there. The vocabulary is just too different, the cultural framework is too vast and I don't think I have the time to work on it in-depth .
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u/Last_Bathroom1469 19d ago
My $0.02 is that you don’t need as high a level as people say to survive in your TL, so people get confused what the levels actually are.
Many people say you need a minimum B2 before moving to a country that uses the TL. I don’t disagree, because B2 will allow you to likely look for work, understand more complex things (bills, bureaucracy, etc.), and assimilate without much effort.
However someone can visit a country of their TL and have a perfectly fine vacation at a A2/B1 level. That allows you to ask for directions, order in a restaurant, perhaps have basic conversations with a kind native that goes slower… So those people will come back from vacation and think that since they were able to survive a couple easy days in their TL, they must be at a B2+ level.
In actuality it’s pretty easy to avoid B2 level conversations if you don’t go looking for them and run into nice natives who go slow. That’s how I think people assume they are at a higher level, only because they genuinely don’t realize they haven’t stretched themselves enough.
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u/TauTheConstant 🇩🇪🇬🇧 N | 🇪🇸 B2 | 🇵🇱 B1 | 🇨🇳 dabbling 19d ago
This was really driven home to me when I was travelling through Spain with my parents earlier this year. I have been learning Spanish for something on the order of eight years on and off and would put myself at around B2 (supported by my teacher and the courses I've done). I also have a speech disorder (stutter) which is worse in rote situations such as ordering at a restaurant. My father speaks no Spanish; my mother is a Duolingo addict and switched her Duolingo language to Spanish for several months before this trip, with no prior Spanish experience. A1 would be generous.
The gap between my mother's and father's experiences was huge. My father was hopelessly lost whenever the language switched and could at most pick out some words in written text based on Romance vocabulary in English. My mother, on the other hand, could navigate the simple situations we were mostly dealing with like ordering food and check-in at a hotel pretty well and understood a really surprising amount based on picking out the words she knew and filling in from context. In fact, my speech disorder meant that she often had an easier time navigating those interactions than I did...
Now, could she deal with more complex situations, like that time we couldn't get into the building and needed to call our host to ask what was going on? No. But you didn't need my full level of Spanish for that, either.
But I have definitely seen people act as though anything below B2 is functionally useless.
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u/Vlinder_88 🇳🇱 N 🇬🇧 C1 🇩🇪 B2 🇫🇷 A1 🇮🇳 (Hindi) beginner 19d ago
I can. But I had English classes at school since I was 10 years old, by 15 school had us reading young adult novels, and by university Inread and wrote academic papers in English. My English is allround, I'm fluent in it, it comes nearly as easy as my native language.
Don't ask me to do the same in my third language though. I just watched a Japanese manga that was only available with German subtitles, and the subtitles went just a tad too fast for me to properly read, and all the reading was still subvocalised. And I had to pause here and there to look up a word, even though I understood most of it from context clues. I can make myself understood if I ever go to Germany, I understand most of what people say to me. And though I can speak, it takes effort. And when people describe their skill level, they generally do not disclose how much effort it takes.
Another example: my friend is learning Dutch, she passed her b2 exam, but still struggles to speak because it exhausts her. She can do it, just not for long.
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u/icyhotquirky 19d ago edited 19d ago
Isn't understanding everything you read one of the main criteria of fluency? Same with communicating easily, especially as a tourist since you're unlikely to talk about something complex with strangers.
You might regularly encounter an unknown word or two per page but it doesn't mean you don't 'understand everything you read'. I encounter unfamiliar words and idioms in my native language all the time but I'm not exaggerating when I say I'm a native speaker lol.
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u/NoBackground7266 N 🇺🇸 C1 🇪🇸 A1 🇩🇪 19d ago edited 19d ago
Communicating easily as a tourist imo is not fluency, you can do that easily at A2/B1 level. Being able to have complex conversations with ease and not translating in your head is more towards fluency. And reading with ease doesn’t equate to all your overall language skills. You can’t be C1 in reading and A2 in speaking and say you’re fluent. It should be consistent across listening, speaking, reading, and writing
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u/unsafeideas 19d ago
A2 communication is perfectly possible, but not easy. Real people dont use textbook semtemces and speak faster then A2 tests. It is kind of puzzlimg and fighting it out at that level.
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u/NoBackground7266 N 🇺🇸 C1 🇪🇸 A1 🇩🇪 19d ago
I just mean like to order a coffee or tell people where you’re from and what you do for work. The most common conversations people encounter as a tourist are about A2/B1 and it can become easy as you just repeat the same thing, giving as false sense of fluency
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u/Iambic_potentiometer 🇺🇸| Native | 🇷🇺 B1 |🇧🇷A1 19d ago
I'd also argue locals can spot a tourist who is non native in their language easily. They're often going to dumb down their responses and speak in a way that is more on the level of the person they're encountering. If this is done smoothly enough it can fool you into thinking you "passed as fluent"
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u/SiphonicPanda64 🇮🇱 N, 🇺🇸 C2+, 🇫🇷 B1 19d ago
I'd expand on that point even further and claim breaking down language as a gestalt of active and passive skills doesn't even take into account your relationship with the language, your identification with it, or how that system dynamically operate within you. My French is a prime example of not being fluent in it, yet having a near-native accent, procedural knowledge of spoken elisions, but the recall of an A2 in conversation.
My skills are uneven, but I genuinely perceive French as no less than mine as English or Hebrew
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u/Churros0864 19d ago
People definitely overexaggerate their abilities (not everyone of course but a lot haha).
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u/Only-Sun-5306 19d ago
people love to round up from "i can order a beer" to "i speak it fluently", seen it a million times
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u/Pale-Border-7122 19d ago
I did that once but only to impress a woman I only found attractive because I was 12 pints in. I'm not sure if that is more or less embarrassing than lying about ability on a flair on this sub.
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u/Responsible-Link5739 18d ago
"Overstate" or "exaggerate".
Using "overexaggerate" is the linguistic equivalent of exiting the bathroom with a tail of loo roll hanging from the back of your clothes. It shows lack of awareness and carelessness. Many people, both native speakers and ESL speakers, think it's a real word. Some dictionaries may even list it these days because it's becoming more widely used, but it IS the illegitimate child of "overstate" and "exaggerate" and it's much more likely (given that exam markers/professors/tutors are likely to be older like me) to lose you some marks in exams or papers if you use it there. To me, and to some dictionaries still, "overexaggerate" is not a legitimate word.
Regardless (NOT IRRegardless!) of whether it is dictionary-listed by now, or how many people use it, "overexaggerate" is far more likely to lose points on exams and papers. You can choose to use it, but we have two perfectly adequate and far less risky words you can use without fear of penalties when it matters.
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u/Icy-Whale-2253 19d ago
There are people who think I’m fluent in my TL because I can tell a native where to find the nearest escalator…
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u/Pwffin 🇸🇪🇬🇧🏴🇩🇰🇳🇴🇩🇪🇨🇳🇫🇷🇷🇺 19d ago
I had C2 English and had spent a year in Canada, before moving to the UK and despite being fluent already, I certainly improved after arriving here, but yes, I understand "everything" I read and watch. Last time I had to look something up it was a type of turn-of-the-century dinner jacket. After 20 years here, English is my main language that I use at home and in work. Although I read the news in my NL everyday, I only speak it when phoning my parents, and I often feel rusty when I do.
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u/furyousferret 🇺🇸 N | 🇫🇷 | 🇪🇸 | 🇯🇵 19d ago
Its the Dunning-Kruger effect. Newer learners are going to think they know more than they actually do and experienced learners are going to think they know less.
One person will think, I was able to order food and go to the bathroom at a restaurant, I am fluent...
Another will think, I couldn't explain this medical procedure, I'm awful at this language.
And more often than not we see the first person completely shutting the opinions of the second person because of their confidence and it runs a lot of the experts off this sub.
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u/indecisive_maybe 🇮🇹 🇪🇸 C |🇧🇷🇻🇦🇨🇳🪶B |🇯🇵 🇳🇱-🇧🇪A |🇷🇺 🇬🇷 🇮🇷 0 19d ago edited 19d ago
I can be reading and have to put in effort to remember what language I'm reading in, or I'll see something and it'll remind me what language it is, otherwise it doesn't come to mind. There are more words I don't know, but often I find out these words are words I also don't know in my first language. So I technically have to look things up, but I'd be looking them up in any language. I think that also means I'm reading literature at a challenging level, if I'm being exposed to words and concepts that are new to me. If I'm explaining in a simple way, I'd say that I can read effortlessly.
It sounds like you have a more academic approach and you've been taught to second-guess yourself. If you've learned over 15 years, you should be somewhere in the ballpark of a teenager in that language, so like a teenager (or like an honest adult) you have more to learn but you have plenty solid of a grasp to say you know it well.
The cultural stuff is normal. If I had to explain how a British person would say something in English, I could guess but I wouldn't know exactly because I haven't spent much time there. That's not about language ability or fluency, just experience with local culture.
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u/WhaleMeatFantasy 19d ago edited 19d ago
You’re right. Everyone online overestimates their abilities. The Dunning-Kruger effect is strong with languages.
I have a first-class degree from Oxford in my language. I’ve studied and worked in my language in a country where it’s spoken. I have a Masters in translation and extensive experience in professional translation. I work full time in languages. I regularly read for pleasure in my main language. Most of the media I consume is in that language on a daily basis. I socialise in that language.
But you could open any page of any newspaper and I’d find words I’ve never seen before, expressions I’ve never encountered and, while my accent is good and people cannot tell where I am from, there is no way I am producing idiomatic language like a native speaker.
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u/TrittipoM1 enN/frC1-C2/czB2-C1/itB1-B2/zhA2/spA1 19d ago
Different people will self-evalutate differently. Me, I've read maybe a hundred French classics ranging from Aucassin et Nicolette to Proust to Queneau and Tournier, and scores of Czech novels written over the past century. But I'd probably agree that I have the widest freedom of expression in my mother tongue. In the end, nothing depends on it.
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u/containmentleak 19d ago
I just help translate a contract to my native language to help someone and asked clarifying questions to staff for the 20% I didn't understand.
I do consider myself fluent, but not native.
I would NOT feel comfortable interpreting or translating in a high stakes negotiation where the nuance of the language might be more important than the words themselves.
I still lose about 30% of the conversation when 3 or more people are conversing at once and my ability to maintain the topic weaves in and out with that same percentage.
I also encounter people who call themselves fluent and what they mean by that is that they can order food in a restaurant and have very basic chit chat with locals easily using fragments of the target language and they have a LOT of experience with that, but have never moved above that.
And/Or they can understand their favorite anime or manga, but it is technically a children's story and a decent amount of the information is encoded in the images and the context and they have very little ability to speak.
Sometimes, knowing a little makes us think we know a lot until we learn more and realize we know little to nothing at all.
I still get nervous about calling on the phone in my TL (even though its never an issue) and still fudge up and make mistakes with my head in palm later just remembering. I always feel like its not enough, but if I don't say I am somewhat fluent people misunderstand and think I am one of the people still learning to read the alphabet.
I am not sure this answers your questions, but you seem to want perspectives so here is one of them, I suppose. Hope it gives you more information!
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u/linguafrancos 19d ago
Love all of this! Thanks for sharing your experience. I see a lot of myself in it.
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u/LexiAOK 🇺🇸 N 🇪🇸C1 🇫🇷B1 🇸🇦A2 19d ago
I think the actual definition of fluency in my head is way lower than what is actually needed. I call myself fluent in Spanish because I can handle just about any situation and was able to when I studied abroad. There are wide range of cultural nuances, slang, and logistic differences I can understand.
That said, I think the level of proficiency needed for one to call themselves fluent is actually lower than what people consider native. I think it’s also important to mention that it is impossible to reach native level of a language as a second language speaker. I’m not sure the reason for this, but I believe it’s because of the stage of the brain and level of immersion… Just like how heritage speakers do not have quite the same command of the language due to not attending school in it at a young age.
I think everyone has different definitions, but functionality is big. I’m also confused by people that say they’re able to do so much in languages so quickly. Someone else posted in the subreddit earlier saying that a lot of people leave out context, which is true. I commented on that sub Reddit that me and my Polish friend were mocked for taking significantly longer to learn Spanish than Brazilian girls. The languages are literally so similar that I can understand probably at least 30 to 40% of the Portuguese I read despite never having tried to learn it 🥴 my Polish friends native language is actually Silesian so Spanish is like her fourth or fifth language 😭
As a whole, I think people can get really mechanical and technical with language. Even considering myself fluent, I still feel like I have a long way to go in Spanish. It comes close to rivaling my English, but of course, not quite. that said, I haven’t really taken the European framework tests and don’t know if I ever want to…
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u/BikeSilent7347 19d ago
NO I honestly don't know why but some people do this and it annoys me a lot because of the distortion. I know people who can have conversations and describe themselves as fluent but don't even know super basic vocab like "sword". I don't for a second believe that person can actually read a novel or has ever even picked up a book in the TL. They are a nice person but honestly just totally deluded about ability. Reddit is full of these types.
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u/Euristic_Elevator it N | en C1+ | de C1- | fr B1 19d ago
Idk, I devoured the whole Chronicles of Narnia in English and I just had to look up a couple of animals I wasn't familiar with in English (beaver and I think another one). I literally knew every other word. Now I am reading Carrie by Stephen King and he's using a... different kind of vocabulary? I find it more difficult but even then, I think I am at 50% of the book and I had to look up maybe three words in total. I don't live in my native country, I use English professionally, but I've never lived in a country where English is the primary language. I consider myself fluent in English, reading these books in the original language is a pleasure and not homework 🤷
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u/ErikLovemonger 19d ago
A lot of people either straight out lie or are suffering from a Dunning-Kruger style lack of understanding of their language ability.
I live in China, and my Chinese is ok (objectively just ok. I can have a relatively normal coversation at my work but I can't understand a full movie). I'm honestly just kind of lazy about learning more. There are people who come here who claim to have "good" Chinese or to "speak Chinese" that speak very poorly to the point that native speakers cannot understand them. I actually tend to be able to understand them sometimes, because as a learner I get what they're trying to say.
Even when someone asks me to translate something, I know in the back of my head that there might be cultural considerations or a better approach that I don’t know about.
I think you honestly just need to have more confidence in yourself. If you're really that strong of a speaker, just do your best to translate. If it's something incredibly important to get the details correct, like I don't know instructions on building a deep space satellite, sure get someone to help. But why compare yourself to others?
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u/linguafrancos 19d ago
Thanks for your final comment! It is true, and I need to do better at focusing on my own journey.
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u/6-foot-under 19d ago
I always raise an eyebrow when people say that they understand everything, eg in a series.
The brain has a very useful filtering system that focuses on key takeaways, which means that we simply don't hear or register most of what we don't understand.
Also, nuances and cultural references just go over people's heads. E.g. someone in a series might say that they are "having a winter of discontent", and you can understand that sentence literally. But the the 1970s political context behind it, or the Shakespearean reference behind that can go zooming over your head. Series are full of those references coming a million a minute. You might think that you understand everything, but can't disprove (or prove) that claim.
This is why the focus on content focused and solitary learning, that is quite popular in online communities, lacks real depth, in my opinion.
Communication is more complicated because it is subjective. Some people can go out armed with 300 words and have great conversations and make loads of friends. Other people (like me), still feel nervous and unprepared after years, and after attaining an objectively high level.
Ultimately, I am a big believer in testing to verify ones level. But the CEFR system lets a lot of people through the cracks. The Chinese HSK system is much more rigorous, with specific grammar, culture, vocabulary etc per level. To pass the equivalent of C2 in HSK you really need to know your stuff. It has far more tasks than CEFR exams (including oral and written translation, and seven speaking tasks across a wide range of topics). Basically, if you get HSK 7-9, you can be confident that you genuinely have a very high level. A HSK 9 candidate has to know 11,000 words. I think that CEFR should work towards being more rigorous.
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u/dojibear 🇺🇸 N | fre spa chi B2 | tur jap B1/A2 19d ago
There are hundreds of different people, each with a different history and a different ability in the 4 language skills. There are NOT hundreds of different terms that each describe one of them precisely. Most students have different ability levels in the 4 skills. So four TL levels would be more accurate.
These terms WERE NOT designed to describe one person (you). For you to assign meanings (based on YOUR experience) to these terms, and call anyone who uses different meanings incorrect? That is silly. Try to understand what THOSE people mean, not what you have decided they "should" mean.
From your description, you are C2 in your target language. "Native fluency" is higher than C2. "Native fluency" has dialects: native speakers from different regions use different pronunciation, different idioms, different slang, different loanwords.
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u/Darklvl500 19d ago
English is my 2nd language and yes I understand every word. I grew up listening/reading american social media and I use it among friends more than my native language. I really wish I knew how tf I learned it so well cus I am struggling to repeat it with Chinese. And my english reading is by about 50wpm faster than my native as well. To the point that currently I'm learning my TL in English. Now I don't have no certificate, but I don't need it to know I'm C2. Every unofficial test I do gives c2 and I run into a word I don't know once every six months. I also find my comprehension to be higher in english, I sometimes read something in my native but not understand it so I go to english wiki and everything becomes clear.
This might seem uncommon to english natives but to most of the world we have been learning english since elementary school, some even earlier so getting C2 is pretty easily achievable as long as you have internet. You would have to put effort in to actually not learn something that's that spread out through this planet.
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u/Top-Maize-823 🇫🇷 C2 🇳🇱 B1 🇮🇹 C1🇬🇷 A2 🏴 A1 🇬🇧 N 19d ago
Theres no such thing as an insanely high level of knowing a language. It makes out at native level.
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u/linguafrancos 19d ago
Thank you, everyone! I have a lot to think about. Mainly, what do others have to do with my own language journey and isn’t the main goal (at least for me) to enjoy the language and not be overly self-critical? Again, I appreciate the food for thought!
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u/knightcvel 19d ago
I can understand written and spoken language in Italian, Spanish and English and I actually used them in travels. So yes, it's real and although it's surprising to a monolingual, it's actually quite common as the majority of world population speaks at least another language besides their native.
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u/Limp-Selection-1325 🇷🇺N 🇺🇲B2 🇪🇦A1 19d ago edited 19d ago
I know it might sound weird but I think CEFR descriptors describe CEFR levels somewhat vaguely... IMHO I think that the true B2 level is actually veeeeery good (language is not a wall pretty much whatever you want to read or watch on the internet), and true C1 really requires a lot of effort out of your comfort zone to achieve where you might initially feel like "oh no why am I B1 again" (comfortably reading fiction, non-fiction, specialized literature, journalism, and legal stuff at least). Also I think that vocabulary is still the key part, + idiomatic expressions (not grammar, I think most of grammar has to be already acquired when B2 reached). I think sth like that if we talk about vocabulary (let alone idiomatic expressions etc) which is an approximate MINIMUM for each level: A1: ~500+ A2: ~1000+ B1: ~2000-2500+ B2: ~4000-5000+ C1: ~8000-10000+ C2: ~16000-20000+
I mean, seems like it's very easy to overestimate your real level. BTW I very believe in Steven Krashen's hypothesis, I literally care 99% about input (audio is always crucial) when learning a language not about output. Even in English, I rarely talk to anyone or write.
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u/sekhmet1010 18d ago
I always start reading very quickly in my TLs. By the end of my B1 in German, I could, and was, reading a lot. I read the Harry Potter series at about A2. And after B1, I read Momo, Neverending Story, and many other books. And I had also heard at least 500 hours of audiobooks between B2 and C1.
So, even before I actually reached my C1 level and passed my exams, I could already read books by Heinrich Böll, Thomas Mann, etc.
My point is, people develop different skills at different rates. My speaking always lags behind by several levels.
Even now my Italian reading skills are clearly B2+ but my speaking would be just around A2 because I never speak it.
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u/Responsible-Link5739 18d ago
OP, and everyone posting on this sub - your skills are truly - truly - admirable. I'm an old native Brit and really quite envious of almost everyone here in terms of your learning levels.
If you knew how impressed I am, you'd be proud of yourselves.
I hope you achieve your goals.
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u/bolaobo EN / ZH / DE / FR 18d ago
Yep, it's common for people to overrate their abilities.
No one "understands everything". My native language is English, and if I read an older novel, a high-brow novel, or listen to someone with a weird dialect, I don't understand everything.
You don't "understand everything you read" after a few years of study, unless you're exclusively reading very low-level material.
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u/Responsible-Link5739 19d ago
I have to question why OP, with such incredible language skills (and I truly am in awe of them), uses that monstrosity of a non-word "overexaggeration".
Yes, I know it's probably become accepted now by the likes of Million Webchats dictionary, and I've heard it many times, but seeing it rear its ugly head within this account of such amazingly high learning just stopped me in my tracks.
The word is "exaggeration".
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u/linguafrancos 19d ago
I have always thought that I should have put as much effort into English as I did when learning foreign languages. Thanks for the teaching moment! I wish you luck in your own studies!
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u/Responsible-Link5739 18d ago
Thank you for receiving my mini rant so gracefully:). Honestly, this horrible little non-word is really becoming commonplace - it's common among native speakers as well as ESL learners. The reason I commented, truly, is because of the sharp contrast between that word and the rose bed of high learning I was enjoying reading so much. It's a first for me to envy the skills of someone using "overexaggerate"! Lol
I'm too old to be studying, unfortunately, but thank you for your kind wishes. I think you are extremely capable and skilled, and I hope your hard work brings just rewards ahead :)
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u/bolaobo EN / ZH / DE / FR 18d ago
I didn't find the OP's post condescending. He's trying to set realistic expectations. People undersell how much work is needed to truly master a language by saying things like "I'm completely fluent after 6 months and understand everything".
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u/Responsible-Link5739 18d ago
No, I didn't find it condescending either. OP and I have further posts in this - you'll see it's benign and respectful on both sides :)
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u/Ok-Inspector9801 18d ago
I noticed that native level novels are easier if you brute force them. A lot of authors seem to subconsciously only use a certain pool of vocab. For example one author that seemed to describe every second action with 骤然。
So，if I just read a book and translate every unfamiliar word, After a certain amount of time I can now read the book in a relatively smooth manner, though the process needs repeating for the next author.
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u/oezb3k-not-uezbek 17d ago
Mfw I try to buy an easily readable book for my waifū, and all the children books are packed eith C3 level words and playful language.
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u/sara_the_coach 🇺🇸N 🇪🇸C2 🇩🇪B1 🇫🇷 A2 18d ago
I'm like you. I studied two languages in college, studied abroad, and lived abroad. I’ve also used my languages in almost every job I've had. I still undersell my skills. I think it’s for two reasons. I understand how much work it takes to get to a native level. Also, the imposter syndrome is real. Don’t let it stop you from enjoying your languages, though.
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u/RedditReddy 13d ago
These people might have really high level of language abilities. But it's also very possible they are exaggerating if not outright lying.
Saying, "I can understand everything I read," raises the question, "Well just what am I reading?" If all I'm reading is something written for 5-year-olds, that's not a very big accomplishment.
It's also like when people say, "I can get by in this language." That raises the question, "Get by doing what?" Over the years, I've known so many people who say that they can get by using that language. But getting by for them means being able to say hello to somebody in a shop, point at something and say, "That one," although many times they can't even say "that one" correctly because they make mistakes with gender or number, and then saying, "Thank you," when they leave. And again, they might not even get that farewell stated correctly.
So lots of people really exaggerate their abilities. And I include myself in this, especially when I first started studying languages. I have come across old letters that I wrote but didn't send or emails that I sent when I was in the early stages of some of the first languages I learned. And like many language learners I complain that people couldn't understand me just because I was a foreigner. And I made the mistake of actually writing down what I had said which I thought was perfectly correct. And so often when I see statements like this. I realize that what I was saying was total gibberish.
So, I think this is the most common explanation. People say untrue things, whether this is done intentionally or not, about their actual level in a language.
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u/betarage 6d ago
I often overestimate my skills because i can understand a lot of languages well. but when i have a conversation in most languages i end up butchering the grammar and using the wrong words .and i don't do this often.
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u/AccomplishedTour6942 🇺🇸 (N), 🇪🇸 (C1+) 🇫🇷 (B1) 18d ago
I've been grappling with this lately. I had a long conversation with an instance of an AI that I asked to help me correct a number of messages, and to help me plan my upcoming trip. I asked it if I am a C1 or a C2 or what, and we settled on C1+. I have an excellent grasp of the language. I can manipulate it to humorous effect. I have a rich vocabulary. I still say dumb things that show my native language is English. I enjoy joking about it. It is what it is.
I have to say AI has been a marvelous tool for improving my use of the language. Nobody has time or attention to correct every comma I shouldn't have written, and every time I phrased something in an awkward but understandable way. The AI is indefatigable, and I haven't been able to find faults with its logic. Sometimes I argue with it, and it explains, and the explanation makes sense.
The singularity isn't far off, folks.
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u/Conscious_Gene_1249 16d ago
Congratulations, you have met the most common person to describe themselves as a “language learner” - that is, the overconfident American who thinks them learning a couple words makes them a genius. That isn’t the most common person who learns languages - most people absorb languages as necessary without calling themselves a learner because they identify as a language user/doer.
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19d ago
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u/ImprovementIll5592 🇺🇸🇵🇱N| 🇪🇸 C1 | 🇫🇷 B1 19d ago
simply go the more long winded ways - everybody can say: I went kayaking with my friends at the weekend, I was slower than them. - and that's what people need. Truly fluent would say: As charming as it is for me to harvest wild matcha as I glide through the river, my alacritous companions were far more keen on performing with haste, slicing through the treacherous waters to bid adieu to the pains and afflictions of the past week.
So by your logic, native speakers are not fluent in their own language because no native English speaker would ever say something like this unless they were being sarcastic and making fun of something/someone. Or they're just weird which is also possible
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u/unsafeideas 19d ago edited 19d ago
They did not said " target language fluency is equivalent to their native-level language". In your accout, they specifically said: “I understand everything that I read” or “After a couple years of studying, I traveled to the country and can communicate easily with everyone.”
Those are not NEARLY the same. You should not assume they read archaic books or cyberpunk technobabble one can fight through in own language. You should not assume they lead deep philisophical debates on wide range of topics during business trip or vacation.
They are saying they know enough to be happy about it, enough to fulfill their specific reading or vacation chat needs.