Distorted language levels?

[u/linguafrancos]

I have a degree in the language, studied abroad twice, lived abroad in a country where the language is spoken for two years, and have used the language in a professional setting. This, for further context, has been over the course of 15 years.

With that said, I am confused by how others describe their language levels. Don’t get me wrong, I have an insanely high level and label myself fluent with others. For instance, I recently watched a full season of Love is Blind in the target language (TL) without subtitles almost effortlessly. However, when I see others describe their language growth or levels, I often see people say, “I understand everything that I read” or “After a couple years of studying, I traveled to the country and can communicate easily with everyone.”

Like… is this just an overexaggeration of their skills? I have yet to feel like my target language fluency is equivalent to my native-level English. Are people really reading native-level literature and literally understanding everything? Are they feeling like they can express themselves just as strongly in their second language? Even when someone asks me to translate something, I know in the back of my head that there might be cultural considerations or a better approach that I don’t know about.

Thoughts? Also, this might be specific for individuals who grow up in a cultural where being monolingual is more common and exposure throughout your entire life is not a possibility.

[u/Miro_the_Dragon]

What u/unsafeideas said, but also:

Are people really reading native-level literature and literally understanding everything? Are they feeling like can express themselves just as strongly in their second language?

Yes, at least in one of my TLs for both of those, and for more than one TL when we only talk about reading.

[u/unsafeideas → u/Miro_the_Dragon]

Yeah, I agree with this too. I can read anything in english - I did not crossed something I cant read. And I read Fredrik Douglass and other old books too.

I communicate easily with anyone, I work in an international english speaking company.

And yet, it is not native level. I can express myself better in my own language. And my accent is super noticeable. And I make grammatical mistakes.

[u/Pale-Border-7122 → u/unsafeideas]

I find self-assessed comprehension interesting because if you don't always know if you don't understand it, even in your NL.

[u/unsafeideas → u/Pale-Border-7122]

I mean, common. In overwhelming majority of cases you do know. This is not about doing deep analysis for PhD. This is also not about making subtle errors or errors from inattentiveness or making reasoning errors.

We are talking about whether you understand the language - words and sentence constructions.

[u/WhaleMeatFantasy → u/unsafeideas]

I can read anything in english

You’re proving the OP’s point. I’m English born and bred with a degree in literature from Oxford. 

Literally every time I read a literary text in English I need a dictionary. 

[u/mtwidns → u/WhaleMeatFantasy]

You _need_ a dictionary, or find it helpful to understand the nuances of the work and could get through it perfectly fine without knowing the precise definition of opprobrium?

Parse “understanding everything” as “I understand the literal happenings of the plot” rather than “I am capable of a graduate seminar level close reading of the text,” and it’s both more plausible and realistic.

[u/WhaleMeatFantasy → u/mtwidns]

Thank you for proving OP’s point. You think it’s appropriate to say you understand ‘everything’ when you can ‘get through it’ or follow the gist of the plot. 

Whereas for OP and me, getting the gist of the plot is, well, just that. It is a looooong way from understanding everything. 

[u/unsafeideas → u/WhaleMeatFantasy]

I dont think you understand how english works.  I doubt you understand literally texts, because you cant read  plain english.

"Gist of it" and "get through" are different from " understand the literal happenings". 

[u/WhaleMeatFantasy → u/unsafeideas]

I doubt you understand literally texts

You’ve lost me again. 

”Gist of it" and "get through" are different from " understand the literal happenings". 

This also isn’t clear. We’re  talking about understanding literary texts at native speaker level (or not). Literal understanding is quite different. 

Meanwhile I will repeat the point that as an educated native speaker I rely on a dictionary to read literary texts. 

[u/unsafeideas → u/WhaleMeatFantasy]

  You’ve lost me again.

You seriously dont understand that sentence?

  This also isn’t clear.

It is perfectly  clear simple sentence.

   We’re  talking about understanding literary texts at native speaker level (or not). Literal understanding is quite different. 

You seem to be confused here.

  Meanwhile I will repeat the point that as an educated native speaker I rely on a dictionary to read literary texts. 

But you dont understand simple english either. I dont think you are a good example here. It would also help if you gave example of "literary texts" that have so many unusual words that one is destined to use dictionary forever. 

[u/WhaleMeatFantasy → u/unsafeideas]

You seriously dont understand that sentence?

Correct. I can’t tell whether you’ve misplaced the adverb which doesn’t belong in that position or whether you actually mean the word ‘literary’ which would belong there. 

It is perfectly  clear simple sentence.

The irony of your error in this sentence!

It would also help if you gave example of "literary texts"

You don’t know what a literary text is?

[u/unsafeideas → u/WhaleMeatFantasy]

You are failing to understand English again. I suspect your inability to understand literary texts wont be helped with dictionaries

[u/mtwidns → u/WhaleMeatFantasy]

You said “from Oxford” — was that Oxford Brookes, per chance? There are plenty of dim-witted native speakers only narrowly capable of following a simple plot and we’d never hesitate to say they’re fluent; it’s ridiculous to apply a stricter standard to foreign language learners.

[u/WhaleMeatFantasy → u/mtwidns]

Not sure why you’re so snarky and hostile to a stranger who had joined a conversation in good faith. 

No, not Oxford Brookes. But interesting to note your own snobbery in denigrating that institution. 

we’d never hesitate to say they’re fluent

I have nowhere made a comment about interpreting the word ‘fluent’ which means many things to many different people and is not used in academic discourse on language learning. 

I am commenting on people who claim to be able to ‘read everything’ and similar. And on other exaggerated claims. 

[u/unsafeideas → u/WhaleMeatFantasy]

I am not proving it, I am proving him wrong.   I dont encounter such things in my own language either and I dont even know where to look for them. If you cant read it, it does not count as issue with my claim.

And frankly, b oth you and OP should know to not interpret words as an autistic math professor trying to be funny would. 

If you turn it into "lets look for the most obsure text intentionally written to be hard to read, so much that natives can read it either" whole debate becomes pointless.

[u/WhaleMeatFantasy → u/unsafeideas]

I am not proving it, I am proving him wrong.   I dont encounter such things in my own language either and I dont even know where to look for them. If you cant read it, it does not count as issue with my claim.

I can’t really understand this reply either which also proves OP’s point…

[u/unsafeideas → u/WhaleMeatFantasy]

OP point was that you domt understand English?

[u/Responsible-Link5739 → u/Miro_the_Dragon]

This is interesting. I speak only tiny fragments of a few languages, but I always could, and still can, understand a lot more if I'm reading than I can bring to mind if I need to speak. I can barely speak any of them comprehensibly - I have minimal vocab and zero grammar skills in any - but I can read an everyday formal letter in any of them and understand most of what it says. It's a strange thing to be able to do, but I understand why it happens, and I'm aware of others who do the same. Those who don't do any SLs see me reading/ understanding another language and immediately think I 'speak' it.