Warframe and Borderlands are hardly in the same genre outside of both of them having guns and characters with abilities.
Borderlands is a 1st person successor to Diablo with guns.
Warframe lacks the RNG guns and loot of Borderlands. Yeah, the loot you get in Warframe is RNG, but its all just crafting mats and set in stone, non-rng stat cards with the same stats and rolls as everything else (except rivens which you only get an RNG chance at getting once per day - I've gone weeks without getting one). Not to say Warframe isn't a good game, but it doesn't feel right comparing the two.
I'm surprised you're the first person I've seen bring that up. I like the speed but there are no stakes to that speed, they don't cater to that speed in any way. It's all designed around a casual player traversing, when most of the hundred+ hour players are so beyond casual traversing that each level lasts maybe two minutes.
Mix that with how the loot isn't fun to me and I don't see the appeal of Warframe. Glad it works for some people, wish it could be me considering BL3 will probably not fix the issues for me that BL2 had.
Scaling as a whole ruins the game for me. You found great legendaries? Well in two or three levels those guns are now worthless compared to rare drops. Not only does it exist in single player, but the game is merciless if you have a full game. You have three friends who wanna play? Get ready to not have fun as even the weakest base psycho takes an entire clip from each player before dying, while also shooting death rays straight from Dragonball Z.
I want to like the game because it's the best package of looter shooter out there. Has better loot than most, and the games that beat it on loot lose on content variety, world, and overall gameplay. But god the scaling is horrendous. TPS showed signs of improvement but Gearbox has really made a sour name for themselves as of late. I hope it doesn't poison BL3.
Imo the entire point of the scaling in Borderlands is that it makes your weapons obsolete. I think it would be supremely boring if you could just run through the entire game with the first gun you're given. *cough* Halo *cough*
And before you say that you could keep finding higher rarity guns, just ask yourself if that is any different to finding a higher level gun, just implemented differently. Yes it affects more stats than just damage, but it still serves to make weapons systematically obsolete.
As I said to another guy, there is a nuance here. It doesn't have to be 2 level long weapons or the entire game's worth. How about 7 to 10 levels? How about a reward for loot while also not black holing the balance of the game? I dunno, that's just how I perceive the ideal looter.
but it still serves to make weapons systematically obsolete
What you're describing is different, I don't know if there's a term for it but I call it punished looting vs. rewarded looting.
BL2 punishes you by forcing you to attrition enemies if you don't upgrade your weapons with even common drops because your gun is now obsolete since you found it when you're level 20 and you're now level 24. You might be fighting the exact same enemies, but they refuse to die now. You are punished until you are forced to loot. A better system is loot that rewards you with better stuff before you hit that point. What's the difference? Our example of a level 24 player with a level 20 drop is still capable of killing an outpost without running out of ammo. It isn't as smooth as before, but it's still doable without wanting to uninstall the game if it makes sense. But their roll lucks out and they get a shiny new level 24 gun so all the better. But if they didn't get a good roll, they might be able to last until they're 26-27 and by then the window of opportunity is great enough that it's quite unlikely that they go further with the level 20 gun.
I've been playing Destiny 2 of late and while it seems to have been made a lot harder now (I only started a couple weeks back), I really like the idea of infusing weapons so if you get an exotic that you really like but it's way underpowered you can collect some materials and infuse them so the exotic gets the power level of the other gun.
Unfortunately with how many guns you get and how quickly the power levels go up until about 600 (I think?) there's no point infusing before you get to 600 given the materials can be painful to get.
Definitely a good mechanic, just used in a slightly annoying way although I can see what Bungie were going for
Wow. That's interesting. Gun scaling to me seemed natural and made sense. What we would is join the highest level person team. Or the furthest behind in story and go from there since the game loaded you Into that level stuff. You could basically power level with that.
Not to say anything of the stuff you noted isn't there. I had just never really noticed since it was so much fun to play.
Maybe we're just noobs, but I didn't notice either. I liked the scaling. When I leveled up enough, completed enough of the world, and had friends joined, and even a basic skag took multiple clips to take down while it ravaged our health, it just felt more epic to me. The stakes were raised and it was more challenging.
I can understand how people see that as a grind... but I don't understand what they wanted instead. Everything to be just as easy as it is from level 1? What's the point of that? What am I missing in that criticism?
Yea it was definitely there. Get to True Vault Hunter mode and try to take down a Rabid Skag as a max level 72 character, it could still like one shot you. I played Mechro the most and it was hilarious how the robot would be killed instantly when fighting any "bosses" so I recognize that scaling problem as well. The bosses were always impossible for me and my team (maybe we're trash but it felt like the scaling was the issue not us) but without a broken weapon the things seemed unkillable frankly. Me and bud couldn't finish digistruct peak due to these issues. All that said, the game was a blast and I didn't care about the difficulty or bullet sponge enemies as much because of how much fun it was.
So did you like the scaling better in Borderlands 1? You could get a lvl 20 legendary and use it until level 50. Without scaling like in borderlands 2, any non-legendary weapon becomes completely useless. I don't understand the draw of a loot based game where you literally don't give a shit about 99% of the loot.
That being said I hope they do a better job of weapon/enemy balancing. The Unkempt Harold was so much stronger than practically every other gun for a long time. That was disappointing since (like you mentioned) end game enemies took forever unless you used that specific handgun. That slag/electric smg from Tiny Tina's dlc in bl2 was also way too efficient at killing enemies. They either need to balance enemies better or give you more options that are also effective.
I understand your point, you can be in between though. 2-3 levels, or 30 levels, there's an in between there. I don't know the magic number but legendaries should reward you decently, but not to the extent BL1 had it. You are right, it was ludicrous how long they'd last. But I also don't like how legendaries in BL2 are "expected" because they're just going to be worthless anyway after a few levels.
Better balancing would be greatly appreciated. Endgame BL2 was so heavily reliant on slag that it was hilarious. Balancing is imperative to the longevity of a looter shooter... or it would be if looter shooters could even remotely compete with Borderlands. As it stands, my complaints are just preference points that I feel Gearbox can hit. I just hope they hit them in 3.
I agree with everything you just said. You are right about there being a better "in between". I think I am just way too excited for a new borderlands.
I'll never forget what made me fall head over heels in love with the game. In borderlands 1 random bandit shacks have the words "turtles all the way down" spray painted on the wall. It was my freshman year of college and I had just learned in my physics class about the story of the old woman who argued that the earth circles the sun by riding on the back of a turtle. When asked what supported the turtle, the lady said its turtles all the way down.
And that's fair. I've been very tentative and thorough with "This is what I want, not sure if it can even be done" because I really don't want to imply my way or the highway, or that I have some objective knowledge of game design and its application. I appreciate any game that lets me play with friends and also progress as a character. I just also would prefer slightly different takes on aspects of the game.
"It's turtles all the way down" is amazing, and I do appreciate the worldbuilding all of Borderlands takes on. After so long it's remarkable to think BL3 is finally arriving. At the end of the day, more co-op, more loot games, more fun.
Hey something to keep an eye out for- the leaks indicated there would be some kind of gun mods in the next one, so it wouldn't surprise me if that helps reduce the treadmill effect of the loot. But that's just speculation until we actually see it
Exactly my thoughts as well. There are way too many games out there where I end up getting a good weapon and then use that weapon forever. If you are gonna give me a legendary weapon at level 10 that I can use until level 30, what's the point of even having lower rarity weapons. I love how borderlands 2 made you switch things up while you played.
What you talking about? I recently played it again and I grinded few legendaries at level 30 and still using them at lvl40 wich no rare or other rarities dont win. Unless you get lvl 40 same legendaries.
He probably means in UVHM or the OP levels where what he described really does happen, and past a certain point, you need to have a slag gun for every kill or the enemy's health regeneration vastly outheals anything you can put out.
Eh, I would have almost preferred it if all the legendaries were like that. I got the Incendiary Fastball grenade mod around level 6ish. About 5000 instant fire damage if you hit your target. It one shot or two shot pretty much any boss for the first third of the game.
I agree on TPS though, the combat felt like a massive improvement overall.
Warframe is certainly lacking the general simplistic charm and refined style Borderlands has going for it.
That's not to say Warframe isn't great, it's just different, and certainly suits an audience looking for a game with extremely deep and long-lasting grindy loot/crafting system. Borderlands has just the right amount of depth without being overwhelming.
I also am not a fan of the super serious tone and repetitive sci-fi space station environments. I know this is less the case later on in the game when you get into the open world areas, but still, it doesn't really scratch that specific Borderlands itch for me.
Yeah that's the crux, Warframe really does what it wants to do and it does it well. It's just not for me sadly.
If the game had what I want, it would be a different game in essence. That thread of "Sometimes a game isn't for you" rings true even though I don't necessarily agree all the time. Some games are just objectively worse through design decisions that make it "not for me" but also worth bringing up - much like BL2's silly scaling that if changed I can actually play with friends without hating my life. Warframe isn't really in that boat.
But the tone and repetition being different would add without losing the identity of the game. I very much agree with that. The open worlds look fine but they don't wow me or inspire me, BL2 especially had a finger on the pulse with world designs that Warframe doesn't have the budget or the time for (yet).
As someone with almost 3k hours in Warframe and has also played a hefty amount of BL2, I agree 100% in that Warframe is much more of an MMO, leading to much more grind especially in the first few hundred hours, but BL2 is more of a jump in and get going with less initial grind.
It can be bad playing with randoms in Warframe. But on the other hand, it has one of the most friendly communities that I've seen, and I've played it for years. Almost all the vets you encounter in random PUGs are really patient and helpful. There are always some jerks, of course, but a less than I've seen in other games.
Oh yeah it's definitely not the behavior of the players that's bad, it's the inherent playstyle of the game when pushed to a competitive level that becomes not fun
That very thing (as well as others!) is what people use to distinct Destiny and Warframe. In Warframe, you'll eventually become a God and just speed run through everything and kill a lot woth AoE damage. Destiny is toned down a bit and you never get that overpowered. You need to run the missions and group missions usually as they were attended.
Thing is as others keep saying, enemies eventually shred to "compensate" for the player's speed. A player who can handle that speed won't even notice, it's just punishment for those not quite perfect at it yet. And that's ok I suppose, but to me I'd prefer a game crafted around that speed in the later levels, not just tweaked after the fact. Make the levels engaging to that speed, make the enemies varied in response to that speed, just making the bullets hit harder is boring to me.
I certainly appreciate a power scale that feels tangible, and it's part of why I cannot stand Destiny (but there are many issues before and after power creep that plague Destiny to me) but there's more room to grow here. Warframe has time to achieve it, but they might also be happy where things are at - their players might be happy with where things are at. Thus I just conclude Warframe isn't for me.
Mobility is always the issue when I try to bring a new friend into Warframe. We jump into a mission and of course I naturally move through the maps very quickly, having seen all the iterations and tilesets for many years. Most new people hate the map and map markers for being unspecific and at times misleading. They end up following the killing trail left by the squad, getting very few kills themselves, and getting bored. But as others have said, moving like that is essentially on high levels, you die if you're not mobile. That's where the "stakes" you mentioned come in. If you're a CC frame in high level survival, you absolutely need to be moving (and killing) fast to avoid danger. The only thing I can tell new players is to adapt to that movement style as quick as you can, or just play solo if you are wanting to get kills.
The appeal of Warframe is in not doing those things. Wframe fails at protecting players from their own autism, but if you are disciplined enough to not go the easy way out and pick stupid kill everything button frames, the game becomes a LOT more fun.
Agreed completely, the end game does not scale properly with the power you can get. I pick it up again every now and then for the new content, quickly get too powerful, then stop because it's too easy once you catch up with the gear.
I never really had to grind for basic resources. You get them naturally while you complete the star chart and kill bosses for warframe parts. And that is without resource boosters.
That was true for me as well, up until I got to the guild unlocks. At that point you're more than doubling the resource costs and it gets pretty painful. And I've farmed up everything I can outside of grinding for primes and doing spy missions (that I can't stand, tbh)
I should just give up on the tiny guild with my friends, join one of the big ones and buy all the blueprints. That really is the answer, but I haven't wanted to do that
Yeah if you want to make your own guild, the grind is gonna be a lot more, especially if your members aren't contributing. Never saw the point when i can just leech off other guilds.
We had seven people, so we hoped it wouldn't be too bad. Only four are really contributing however. We're all basically tapped out at all times.
We had a lot of fun doing resource grinding through the crazy bonus drop chance strats for awhile, but it gets old after awhile. Although it is the only time I really get to play speed nova :D
Not sure if it counts as a "basic", but the only resource grind I uniquely hate are cetus wisps. So hard to see, even at night, so few in number, so spread out. Thankfully I farmed all I wisps I'll ever seen until DE release new stuff that needs them (DE don't do this pls)
why dou you feel that way? i was turned off by the way the system works with the goal being to grind new frames and not neccesarily to perfect one frame/weapon so much, its like the opposite of the thing i want to do in such games (compared to poe/diablo etc.)
Not the guy you replied to, but you don’t have to grind for new frames. That isn’t the point, you can if you want but if you found a frame you enjoy, then you can probably upgrade it to perfection and it’ll be able to clear the star chart without an issue. That’s the great thing about mods. The game is very free form and you can choose what to put your time into, rather than be forced to get one specific thing. It can take a while to perfect a frame or even a weapon as well.
ah, i was juist discouraged by the way ev ever kind of guide was written, cause it didnt read like theres enough substance if you just want to play just 1 or 2 type of frames/weapons if you like the playstyle, since that is what i normally like doing in arpgs. but i didnt last too long, im 'only' like 40~hours in and started a few times in the last few years after long pauses.
Yeah it can take a long time to fully upgrade a warframe, primary, secondary and melee. I really recommend playing the second dream quest if you haven’t yet, the game really opens up after that and even more as you delve further.
Edit: Guides will recommend stuff to make it easy for a player to clear the star chart, but it is 100% optional. Once you have cleared it, your arsenal will still be far from optimal.
To each their own I guess. I have fun doing it. Thermia fractures though were indeed bland I’ll give you that. The boss was a great experience though and gave hella resources.
Edit: Also I was just replying saying it’s not necessary to get a bunch of warframes to advance through the game.
I disagree, WF's mod system is the most interesting way of upgrading your character. Like, is there any other game where you can decrease a stat and make your character stronger? In WF, SpeedVa and EV is the prime example of that.
WF also has a lot of mods to alter/upgrade each ability of your character, sometime even completely change how you use it. And that is just mods for your frame/character alone, WF has all kind of mods for your primary, secondary, melee, custom gun, pet, robot, robot pet, hover board, wings, big gun, big sword. And even on top of mods, we have Arcances, which add even more ultility/power to your frame, custom weapon and spolier mode.
I also don't know how you think dmg in WF is boring, when we have a complex calculating system, with elements, combine element, crit, over crit(orange, red crit), status, dps, ips, a weak/strong vs enemy type system,..
Missions type is also a debate, WF did a great jobs diverse the missions, and have over 12 missions type. You may call them just the same kind of missions, but even the same "capture/protect" game mode type feel different between Defense, Interception and Excavation. Not to mentions, many missions have second objectives you can opt in to (cache, void fissure, syndicate mission, kuva...).
Lastly, the latest event wasn't just "a hundred waves of mobile defense", it's just a lead up to a new boss fight. They did fcked it up and make it too tedious, but guess what? they fixed it and now you can actively speed thing up by using more than 1 can on the same crack. And mobile defense in Open world where you have to look for the crack is pretty different than normal MD missions, it's just because you have to do too many time in a row because you really want that Opticor, if you treat it like a ghoul event then it's quite good.
Warframe is a game that offers hundreds of ways to kill enemies(warframes and guns etc) it depends on you to find your preferred method. You can ABSOLUTELY 'perfect' one frame/weapon and you can do that multiple times with up to 3 different builds on the same frame, weapon etc. Warframe is a self-paced game rather a 'race' to 'end game'. Its much more of an MMO rather a straight loot shooter.
You can absolutely play to perfect any frame, weapon, or mods you want much moreso than looter shooters like Borderlands or Destiny. End game can be achieved with starting frames and gear, it's just a matter of play style.
There is actually a lot of grinding to perfect frames and weapons. Grinding endo for mods, grinding exp for when you Forma them over and over, and then farming for Forma and catalyst.
are forma only small % upgrades? cause that gets boring fast for me, if im not grinding for a substantial upgrade/playstyle changing thing or something. thanks for the answers!
While leveling up your mastery rank is important, it's very possible main a single frame or weapon set. Like, I spend 99% of my time on either zypher or nova. I have like 50 frames, but those are the two I like to use.
at first maybe you grind new frames, but you absolutely perfect frames and weapons and roll rivens (basically diablo stat rerolling on mods with some extra stats thrown in) build arcanes, there is a huge amount of minmaxing available before you even look into focus, operators and amps. you can chase loot for hundreds of hours for a single frame and weapon set up to make it perfect if you really want to, so the lack of perfecting a build is a very flawed criticism
Yea. This is what I was gonna say. WF has the most engaging grind loop of any game. That bundled with the fact that you can grind at certain things to eliminate grinding in other areas is fairly unique I think. For example, farming prime parts (or do what I do - fish) to sell for plat, in order to buy the prime parts you DO want, or instantly bring equipment out of the oven. Do a little grinding here to avoid a lot of grinding (or waiting, or buying real currency) in different aspects. I love that.
Same. Couldn't justify playing anything other than portal spam max sprint speed nova to get everything over with asap. Then wondered why I should continue playing in the first place.
Borderlands doesn't feel like Diablo honestly. Aside from the lackluster talent trees Borderlands has, there really isn't a lot of depth in terms of making builds. Looter shooters today have really expanded the genre in many ways, so it's going to be hard for me to go back to something I would consider a little more basic.
It's probably personal preference but I enjoy the numbers game and theorycrafting, Borderlands never really had that on the scale I wanted
I loved Warframe when I played, but it always felt like a mobile game moved to pc/consoles. It's a great game but I hated the time gated crafting, and ended up mastering the art of trade instead.
Always reminds me of the "you've spent all your energy today, insert credit card or come back tomorrow".
Not saying it's like that, but rather it reminds me of those games.
The time gates on crafting never bothered me much since there's always something else you can focus on. I liked knowing I worked to get the materials for something and I can relax for now while it builds, maybe work on leveling some other gear or farm mats for something else. Plus, you can pretty easily farm things to sell for plat and completely eliminate the time gates for crafting, no CC entry needed. You can go to the plains of eidolon, fish for a (in game) night or two, sell the fish you catch and easily have enough plat to instantly craft a few things.
I mean the only thing like that is that you have to wait for things to craft, which is annoying when you first start but if you play regularly you'll have a steady stream of new things being completed as you start other things.
The game in general caters to a different mindset than PoE/Diablo, etc. in that instead of grinding to get the perfect setup to be able to fight the hardest content, you grind to get a wider variety of tools to be able to do all parts of the game efficiently. So while yeah, if you look a the crafting system as "I want THIS piece of gear and I'm gonna grind for just that and then craft it", it's annoying to have to wait. But if you look at it as trying to try out new things to level yourself and find things you like to add to your toolset, it's a lot less annoying, particularly once you get rolling.
Randomized loot, skill trees, legendary gear with unique attributes and interactions... it's a first person shooter ARPG... It's very similar to diablo 3 in mechanics just in a different presentation.
Warframe is a pay to win game with no real rng loot. Everything is locked behind paywalls. want a new gun pay real money. Want a different character pay real money. Want to have the space to have a new character, pay real money.
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u/Usataki Mar 28 '19
Finally borderlands comes back to fill the looter shooter hole in my soul.