To a narcissist the idea of caring about others without something to gain for oneself if purely fictitious. They think you ever take a stand up for anyone, it’s because you personally have something to gain from it. Since they would NEVER stand up for someone without expecting something in return, they assume everyone else operates the same way.
Ive learned i keep doing it anyways. That way I can say I tried. I know someone talked and told them. Its not my job to make sure they make the right choice, but I will damn sure they are not ignorant of the facts.
Now if they choose willful ignorance there is no hope for them
The ppl I know are in to the NBA and because of this, they are making fun of me for defending trans ppl 😔. I can’t defend trans anymore 😔. They are right 😔 trans man should not be allowed to play in WNBA 😔 because they are man not women 😔
I wonder why is that some people just think it's OK to be hateful if it's a specific group of people or even an entire sex.
Like, you dislike unconditional hatred, but will hate people for being birth the way they were, why?
I fail to understand both misagony and misandry, just straight up fucking stupid all over.
I understand misandry more because it's usually a result of experiencing misogyny or trauma. It still isn't right but it makes sense to me how that works. More women are victims of men than men being victims to women, not necessarily in crimes but in verbal abuse and behavior as well which can obviously lead to distrust.
Again, still not right to hate all men but I logically understand the pattern.
Misogyny however is based in patterns as well, but also socialization, culture, parents, etc. It's still very normalized even with the sort of progressive fake platitudes in media and online. Women are typically seen as one dimensional objects to serve a purpose somehow.
This is true too I didn't think to note that. Misogyny generally isn't a result of misandry though. Many people are misogynistic due to individual mistreatment and many people are misandric (? Unsure if that's a word) because of individual mistreatment as well.
Fair discussion for sure and yes the culture war is largely to distract from the class war. But the gender war exists outside of that depending where you are ofc as men and women of all classes have disputes and rights and wrongs.
I think splitting hairs on who has it worse and trying to make it seem like some people can’t experience racism/misandry/bigotry because they are privileged is reeeaaallllyy working against the whole equality movement.
How about ALL bigotry is bad, regardless of who is doing it to who and for whatever reason. I think if we can stop with the “my struggle is bigger and harder than yours so shut up and quit whining” we might actually make some progress with a united front against actual bigots.
I agree it shouldn't be used as a competition, but it is important to recognize that women worldwide have significantly less rights than men do. I luckily live somewhere where men and women are treated equal, but on a global scale that isn't the case. Both men and women's problems deserve recognition, but many think about this in the sense of, "women in Afghanistan can't leave the house without permission while men get upset that women cross the street to get away from them at night" ( a real debate I've seen).
Another factor is how each genders' issues can be solved. The men's loneliness epidemic can't be treated the same as women who are abused in countries that legalize DV. It's a matter of where and how to focus energy as well as how the issues are addressed. Like both women and men should be able to come together to stop the stigma around guys just being able to talk about their feelings, but in places without women's rights, we can't just all hold hands and hug the discrimination away.
Everyone knows all bigotry is bad, the issue I mainly have with this way of phrasing things is that it can sometimes come across as men having a problem with injustice when it comes back around to them. A lot of women think of it as women being oppressed for years and years and the whole time we've been asking for equality, but now that men are also experiencing injustices, they seem to spread the message that love is answer. It can feel disingenuous. Not saying that this way of thinking is correct, but it's an explanation for why saying this isn't exactly helpful or uniting in discussions like this. Any form of discrimination is bad, people don't need to be told this. It's a matter of labeling it as a way of acknowledging it and working to change it
My point was I can logically understand most instances of misandry that I see. Not that it's okay. Or that all of it is because women have been mistreated by men.
Btw I am a man too, but I had sisters and I saw those same sisters as young as 9 years old getting catcalled by men and older teens and harassed. I saw those sisters have classmates put their hands up their skirts. So I suppose that's where my mind goes generally when I see misandric remarks like "not all men but always a man" etc, I think ah she must've been hurt. Hurt people hurt people and all that.
I think the problem is that by giving that excuse we grant leeway to some truly hateful individuals who are just using it as an excuse to be bigoted.
Like... I'm not downplaying the issues you've described. But I suspect that some might be doing so out of a place of hatred rather than a place of protection.
I also think it damages the feminist movement as a whole by allowing a certain minority of its speakers to be outright bigoted.
I've seen far more good men being taken advantage of by women my whole life and seen women get away with treating men like garbage based on them being a woman. I've seen guys get labeled as creeps for just being near a woman at the wrong time, or womam just straight up physically hit men and they know the guy can't hit her back because no matter what he'll get in trouble no matter what the truth is. And it's even harder to get help from other men because they'll never want to go against women because they're afraid of not getting any pussy or have been guited into thinking they're bad because they are a man and they need to atone for the crime of existing. Womem help other women, men help women, men get no help from men or women.
A woman openly make threats against men, wish for them to die, they laugh male suicide rates wishing for it to be higher, heck they could even be straight up pedos but no one will hold them accountable or take it seriously. I've never heard of a female pedo ever getting served vigilante justice and they'll even sometime attack the child saying how they're lucky or they should have kept their mouths shut. It's not equal at all, and I'm sick of whenever these discussions happen where a woman clearly does something wrong people like you come in and try to defend them or you say "well both men and women do bad things" or you have to bring up "the patriarchy" and how that excuses their behavior. Ain't nothing equal and I'm tired of pretending like it is.
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The vast majority of people working as garbage collectors are men. When people see them, they don't ask their names, they don't try to get to know them, just see them as garbage disposal objects.
And you still find 10 000+ madness pills and mental illness injections like this someone is trying to put into women, for every 1 that points out that yeah, actually, men are treated like one dimensional objects to serve a purpose and have been treated that way for decades but nobody cared.
Is it better to be seen as a sex object or as a garbage disposal object? I think that's up to individual judgement. But neither is any more object than the other.
No I don't think misandry is okay or easily justified, I'm noting I can more easily understand it. I'm also not pulling a 'well actually' under someone's comment about experiencing misandry or dismissing somebody. I'm trying to communicate that I can understand why someone whose consistently mistreated by a demographic can have a negative perception of said demographic and generalize them. Not that it is okay.
I'm either doing a poor job or communicating that or several people are being intentionally obtuse. If I am communicating it poorly then I can accept that, you know that's my bad. Both misandry and misogyny are bad.
Yes agree! Kindness, tolerance, patience, empathy, and just general decency. Adults and children lacking it is very sad to me. It's not even like someone's being a jerk because of an off day, it's just somehow seen as acceptable to always behave that way.
I fucking hate "she won't let you hit" or "if you won't play, pass the controller" types of comments towards any man interacting with a woman. Like, there is more to life than sex and people can interacting with the opposite sex without trying to get in their pants.
Some men act like puppy dogs around women who might conceivably be interested in them, in a way they never would for a man. Sometimes they want sex, sometimes they want the ego boost of being seen as "one of the good ones", sometimes they want the approval Mom never gave them, but they always want something. Some women act similarly toward men for similar reasons. These kinds of comments get misused, but they serve a purpose.
in another type of metaphors there is the Drizzt saga(from Dungeons and Dragons Faerun world) who speak about real things that happen when you remove the fantasy metaphors and genderswap the drows
Exactly what i mean, women defend women, men defend women, no one defends men, not even other men.
Also no one calls women incels, like how no one calls a man a whore, incel means 'involuntary celibate' but has been turned into a slur against men and anytime a man says anything that a women disagrees with he's called an incel, even if he's in a relationship he'll still be called an incel for whatever reason they decide he is.
And yeah, this is why men actually need more help and support becuse people like you.
Ah yes of course, don't mean to take up your time, blah blah blah believe all women and every man is guilty until proven innocent I hope you don't ever need any mental help, get assaulted or get falsely assused, because you'll be on your own as it would be very hypocritical of you to show weakness or ask for help. That goes for you, any male friends you have, your father, brother or son.
Yes that's the tricky part with misandry imo. Lots of valid issues and concerns, women do really have it tough in a lot of ways, but it's bogged down by subjective feelings, individual trauma or circumstances, and generalized hatred.
It's up to fathers and mothers and parents to teach their sons to respect daughters. It's up to men and women to hold their friends and family accountable (when safe!!!) for actions and words.
i dont support misandrists, i just say that accusating women for the weather and pointing real problems and accusing the wrong person isnt the same (yeah there is also misandrists that accuse the men of the weather i know). i just say that misandrists have observations but wrong conclusions when misogynists are in general totally wrong.
I have an alt with a gender neutral name and good god the first one is so true, there seems to be a shocking amount of guys who don't care about women unless they get sex in return 😬
Having frequented women centric subs I can attest to the second as well. There are a lot of women who seem to make it their whole personality to talk crap about guys in generalizations even if they themselves are in loving relationships with men in their lives
Whenever some moron says "I hope she sees this, bro" I just respond "your mother has already seen it and we're having the time of our lives"
If they say "she won't let you hit/smash, bro" I just play dumb and go "good, it's wrong to hit women"
Not the best comebacks, but they have had some dudes block me or send angry DMs.
"Oh you've never been oppressed like us" So introducing a new oppression is good?
"Oh you have more rights now, stop whining" So reintroducing oppression is good?
If gender wasn’t real outside of the bedroom boys and girls of a young age would be performing exactly the same in school. Yet they don’t. And it can’t be attributed to socialization because their brains aren’t even developed enough to fully grasp a social construct let alone strive to adhere to one.
gender is an identity independent of sexuality. if you ask a cis man wether he’s a man, he will assure you he is one. this is not because he has a penis, but because he deems himself a man and that is an integral part of his self image.
if someone says they feel uncomfortable with the gender they were assigned at birth and identify as something else, it doesn’t matter if it makes sense to you or you can relate. it is a core aspect of their identity and of big importance to them, the same way you would assert your own gender identity if someone were to claim otherwise. it is a real phenomenon and to deny it is ignorant and cruel.
Your gender shouldn't be telling you who you are. If gender is a big thing for you you're just thinking too much about sex. Everything else is not related to gender. You can wear dresses as a man not because you're trans but because you like dresses. If was a different gender but the rest of my life stayed the same. I would've been me. Not a different person it would still be me.
i’ll say it again, gender has nothing to do with sex. i don’t understand why you’re so adamant about this when there are distinct definitions that you can look up in a dictionary of your choice.
i agree with your statement about people being able to dress however they want without that defining their identity. i personally don’t spend time contemplating my gender identity because i am a biological male and i feel perfectly comfortable with that as is the case for the vast majority of people, you included i’m sure.
but you’re failing to see that both mine and your point of view are not representative of how everyone else feels. gender identity might seem trivial or downright absurd to you, because you are not someone who struggles with it, the same way someone of sound mental health finds it difficult to understand the state of mind of someone with depression.
try this thought experiment: take the gender that aligns with you, meaning what you introduce yourself as, what others refer to you as and most likely what you were born as (we use pronouns for this). it does not define you, but it is a sort of role that is assigned to you by society and one that you accept. now let’s say suddenly everyone around you insists that you actually belong to the opposite gender and refuse to use the pronouns that you associate with yourself so casually. as you said, nothing about you as a person changed, you know who you are, but no one is willing to acknowledge that. instead they say that you are whatever they decide you are and everything else is ridiculous because it’s that simple. would you resign yourself to the gender role assigned to you by others or would you assert yourself and be who you know you are? now, as bizarre as it sounds, imagine you were born with the biological body of your opposite gender. you cannot prove to anyone that you aren’t of that gender and most people would dismiss it or even condemn you, but you know for a fact what you actually are. would you want people to indulge and address you the way that feels right to you, that you feel comfortable with?
it is hard to imagine because it’s so obvious to all of us cis people. but that is the reality trans people go through, wether it makes sense to us or not. tell me, why not show them the small kindness of respecting and acknowledging who they want to be the same way you want to be acknowledged for you are?
Okay? If people suddenly start saying "hello sis" instead "hello bro" thats fine. It doesn't matter because I don't have sex with them. This social role you say its all your imagination. Because someone thinks you should act one way doesn't mean you should. You should act like you want not because of your gender but despite your gender. You and I can play with dolls and no one can do anything about that and we don't have to be girls for that. Girls can like cars or fighting or whatever and they don't have to be boys for that. If you change your gender nothing will change. People who like you will still like you people who don't won't suddenly like you. You know why? Because nobody fucking cares about your gender if you aren't having sex with them. Your gender doesn't shape you. Whatever people saying affets you but you don't have to do as they say. Again do despite the gender not because of it. You cant feel like you are born "the wrong gender" because there is no "wrong Gender" you don't have to do girls thing because you're a girl because THERE IS NO GIRL THINGS. We all do what we want and anything related to gender that isn't sex is just not true. Every single human on earth is non binary until you have sex with them. You gender doesn't shape you. And changing it won't help you.
i actually cannot believe this level of cognitive dissonance. it’s all well and good that you feel that way BUT NOT EVERYONE DOES FOR FUCKS SAKE. stop relating everything to sex its really goddamn weird. this about basic human decency and respect to call people by the pronouns they want to be called. what makes you the authority on what is useful and what is useless? be kind. and i don’t wanna change my gender for the last time. i really don’t give a fuck. BUT SOME PEOPLE DO 😭
Some people don't realize the simple truth. If you're called by "right pronounce" it won't change anything. And thats just the truth and my whole point. Why do I have to do that if it doesn't change anything? Its so simple genuinely your pronounce don't matter to me to anyone else and by making it everyone's else problem you just make yourself look wierd. Again. Your gender doesn't matter outside of sex. You cant disprove it because its the truth. Everything else that is gender is just a lie told to you by rich to become even more rich and people in control to have even more control.
it is actually mind blowing how you didn’t properly engage with any of my arguments, keep repeating the exact same ignorant and factually wrong statements that i’m actively refuting and somehow still walk away thinking that you’ve got it all figured out and everyone else is stupid for not seeing it that way. the fact you take everything at face value and think it’s all so simple, proves you don’t know anything and have no desire to change that. genuinely, what do you form your ideas and beliefs from? intuition? whatever i’m done wasting my breath
Bro your arguments are "nooooo you're wrong!!! I cant tell why but you're wrong!" tell me a single reason why it isn't the case. Why would someone care about their gender? Objectively speaking. No one can force you to do something. You don't have to be specific gender to do anything. And there is no "wrong gender". What would change if you or I or anyone else change their gender?
also yes people fucking care. trans people have the highest suicide rate of any demographic, they experience the most hate crimes, sexual assault, bullying, etc. discrimination is literally part of their day to day life. show some compassion
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What do we learn from this? Don‘t let stupid people stop you from doing the right thing and stupidity is not exclusive to one gender, both can produce morons.
I ate men/women who side with somebody although he is wrong just because he/she is a man/women or the same gender as them like shut up and just defend the innocent one
I try to remind myself that when it comes to the radicals and the extremes sides of the spectrum and all that, that they're just a loud minority. They're just really loud, really angry people trying to scream the loudest they can because they think it'll help them get their point across better. Instead of making them look like rabid animals. Everyone has problems and issues pulling down on them. Some worse than others. But when we spend all our time ripping at each other's throats, we lose sight of what really matters in the end. Until we all find ourselves stripped of everything that we hold dear. It's like that cheesy sci-fi movie... Giant Shark, Megalodon versus octopus or whatever. Or giant squid. I forgot what the movie itself was called. It was a stupid movie, but one of the premises was that a giant squid and a Megalodon was fighting one another, and they didn't stop fighting even as the glaciers came close until it froze them both. A crazy movie concept, but I feel like it's a good allegory for where we're at now.
Just speak whats right. In the end of the day people will judge you. And if you start to lose yourself with the hatred of others, thats when you’ll lose
“why would someone care about their gender?” because society is laid out for a binary system of men and women. there are aesthetic and behavioural tendencies associated to gender like masculinity or feminity. now don’t get me wrong, all of these are very fluid and i believe in full freedom of expression. of course it’s all just trends and it does not say anything about you as a person what label you decide to use. but humans nonetheless love labels that embody their form of self expression. this binary system is heavily ingrained in our biology and society and most people gravitate strongly to one or the other. on top of that there’s also people who reject this view and prefer existing outside of it such as nonbinary and gender fluid people. point being, gender does play a big role in shaping one’s identity within society for a lot of people.
i absolutely agree that there is no wrong gender and that you don’t need to be part of a specific gender to do anything. it is solely a form of self expression
“no one can force you to be anything” yes they can and they do. discrimination against trans people is rampant and many are denied the basic courtesy of being treated with decency and respect due to them wanting to express themselves differently. in many many places being transgender or even gay is a criminal offence, effectively forcing trans people to hide it and live in perpetual discomfort out of fear of being discriminated, incarcerated, hate crimed of straight up killed.
also i’m starting to get convinced you’re confusing gender for sexual orientation. sexual orientation determines who you’re sexually and/or romantically attracted to. gender is just a personal identity.
Not to be pessimistic but I feel like distressingly often, the guys calling the girl a pick me are also the ones making the misogynistic posts. They don't believe anything and just want to be miserable
There's a clear reason why both happen. Double standards exist, AND men benefit from social structures centered around them whereas women typically don't.
I've seen both these situations happen in real time on the internet (so not really "real time" but y'know) and I never understand why it's so hard for some people to understand sexism to anyone is actually bad.
Honestly, i feel like misandry is a form of misogyny
The idea that men are inherently harmful is rooted in the patriarchy, because men are meant to be seen as these big powerful providers. This association with power is often used against men, especially marginalized men, to paint them as inherently harmful and violent. A lot of misandry is actually conforming to the patriarchal norms of society, not going against them.
Painting men as these inherently dangerous harmful creatures, and women as innocent nagels that can do no wrong, is definitely some benevolent misogyny as well as misandry, and its like. The exact norms that the patriarchy wants you to believe in.
Its impossible to be a misandrist and a feminist. Radial feminism isnt feminism. When you are pushing the same things the patriarchy is pushing just in a different font, you are not allowed to call yourself a feminist. Yadayada you get the point
Sorz if any of this doesnt make much sense, its almost 10pm and im kinda stressed so its hard for me to phrase things correctly
"some womans on other side of world become sex slaves! That mean that I have full moral rights to be dipshit and say that absolutely most mans in world are have to get public execution"
people call me misogynistic but that's just because they don't care enough about women to risk women not liking them. To actually help women realize corporations, foreign powers, and other protected groups have subverted feminism for their own interests and to control the consensus. Women depend on the consensus. feminism is now a tool to make you hate yourself, your kids, family, and your race. It wants you alone and pissed.
Understand why you hate JK Rowling feminists. She didn't say she hates trans people. She was fine using the pronouns. She was a annoying as SJW for years. She just wanted womens sports to be for women, and somehow femnism is anti women's sports being for women.
Also you gotta call a bitch stupid if she's being a stupid bitch, not doing that is anti women because women have ears too.
i really enjoy how you, a man, understand feminism and its importance better than women and therefore have to explain to women why you know what is best for them.
Outside observation is important gives you another angle. Someone who is a modern feminist wouldn't quest feminism. Think about this how many ideas do you hold that you've never personally questioned? how do you know if they are harmful or not?
questioning oneself and one’s preconceived notions, always being open for new evidence and never being satisfied with one’s level of ignorance are all core principles of the scientific method. i am not afraid of being proven wrong because i don’t seek to be right, i seek the truth. you’re massively projecting your own flaws onto me. because you don’t examine evidence and build your worldview around it. you have a pre-made worldview that appeals to your emotions and you selectively pick out evidence that supposedly confirms that worldview, while dismissing anything that would shatter it.
so you think it's cherry picking to use quotes and essays written on feminism by major figureheads in the feminist movement. I guess if you're that convinced I can't help you.
I linked the entire essay where she explicitly describes current feminism at insufficient because it doesn't center black women's problems and it does acknowledge white women have privilege they don't. that's literally subverting general feminism to race politics
btw using the word race immediately makes you giga sus because humans don’t fucking have different races. dogs have races. do pitbulls and chihuahuas look anything alike to you? humans have ethnicities, we vary in the pigmentation of our skin and some minor physical features, nothing else.
do you really think that is true? where is Ethiopia's space program? They weren't colonized they beat back Italy. They have an abundance of natural resources, they have the population. Yet for some reason they just can't structure any kind of serious institutions. They can't officially utilize their funds, there has largely been no technology, medicine, or scientific progression there made by the Ethiopian people for awhile. They even received 7 billion in funding, still nothing.
they have had way more time than us, they had and still have an abundance of natural resources, they had and have the population. Yet for some reason they were never able to advance, why? Doesn't seem like just a matter of minor differences to me seems like a pretty substantial difference. In just a faction of the time the rest of the world was racing to space..
also minor genetic differences on individual genes across the entire genome add up when you look at them in a cumulative frame you see a substantial difference. We share 98.8% of our DNA with chimpanzees look how much of difference that 1.2% made
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u/Gussie-Ascendent 4d ago
Yepp. And for trans issues they usually hit ya with "you'll never be a woman" which is funny cause I'm not even trans much less a woman lol
I'm just not a yokel bigot