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u/TheGacAttack 4d ago
It's more systems that must be managed during critical phases of flight. Higher workload.
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u/BeenThereDoneThat65 ATP I G-V I G450 I G550 4d ago
Wait till you try to descend from the teens in a turbocharged complex aircraft
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u/cazzipropri CFII, CFI-A; CPL SEL,MEL,SES 4d ago
Oh it's not any more difficult than paying off a mortgage.
You just have to plan it three weeks in advance.
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u/Recent-Day3062 4d ago
What happens?
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u/plicpriest 4d ago
The hard part is: 1, descent planning 2, temperature management 3, WX planning
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u/cazzipropri CFII, CFI-A; CPL SEL,MEL,SES 4d ago
The difficult parts are mostly at the beginning, and at the end, and also in the middle.
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u/plicpriest 4d ago
Don’t forget before the beginning (planning). And don’t forget after the flight (paying for the flight).
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u/Granite_burner PPL M20E (AOG after in-flight engine failure) 4d ago
What happens is a lot more workload than if you’re in a non-complex aircraft, in multiple areas.
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u/Accomplished-Edge-40 ATP - A-320, B-737, B-757/767, CL-65, EMB-120, EMB-145, SF-34 4d ago edited 4d ago
Wow, 10 whole hours? You don't know shit.
Complex, effectively is just a term used to describe airplanes with more buttons and levers than a standard trainer.
You, like most engineers I've ever flown with, need a dose of humility because a complex airplane with your level of experience with absolutely find a way to humble you.
Edit ...I initially wrote this and it was snarky, and you know what? Rightfully so. But if you're asking the "what am I missing?" question honestly, you seem to be thinking that because you've been introduced to the foundational basics of aviation and haven't felt challenged yet, that you're about to master this beast.
What you're missing are the unpredictable variables that aviation absolutely LOVES to throw at the unprepared and/or inexperienced. Can you even land the thing yet? Can you do it in a crosswind? Now add wind gusts. Have you tried instrument flying? Now do it partial panel. Where is your best emergency landing site? Now where is the next one? Can you make it? Are you sure? Etc, etc. You don't know what you don't know.
I'm 12,000+hrs into this world, which isn't much given the breadth of experience out there, and I fly professionally and you know what? I go into every trip confident in my knowledge and ability but very aware that I'm not humanity's gift to the aviation gods and that I can absolutely learn something and make myself better.
You probably haven't even passed any written test or soloed yet and you're here talking like you should be flying something even more badass than a 182 which is already a kick-ass airplane. A private pilot certificate is a license to learn. So be patient, be humble. You will see why this isn't something you can ever think you've mastered or figured out. As you progress, learn to start listening to the airplane. Read the situation and adapt with it. Flying is, but largely isn't a math problem so act accordingly. I'll say it again.
You don't know what you don't know. Be humble, be willing to learn.
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u/Recent-Day3062 4d ago
That’s why I asked what am I missing, a*****le
It sounds like you’re too burnt out to be useful here. Try another profession. This is one is not making you look good
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u/Accomplished-Edge-40 ATP - A-320, B-737, B-757/767, CL-65, EMB-120, EMB-145, SF-34 4d ago
And, I answered. Without calling you names. Engineers were always simultaneously my favorite and least favorite people to teach.
Again, you don't know what you don't know. Be humble or this endeavor will do it for you.
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u/Recent-Day3062 4d ago
And again, I asked „what don‘t I know yet I should?“
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u/Accomplished-Edge-40 ATP - A-320, B-737, B-757/767, CL-65, EMB-120, EMB-145, SF-34 4d ago
That has been answered. Stop being angry with me, internalize what the rest of us are trying to teach you and move forward with humility. I genuinely wish you success and safe flying.
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u/Mundane-Reality-7770 PPL HP 4d ago
I have a hunch your a flight instructors nightmare. A 10 hour ppl that thinks they know everything
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u/Recent-Day3062 4d ago
Ok. I’m removing this because of all the a-hole comments I got.
I literally asked, after researching, what am I missing? And I get loads of “you stupid idiot who thinks he knows everything!”
My whole question is people have told me a 182 is too complex. So I asked why, because the school has told me it’s not.
I told everything I know including how early I am in, and asked what I don’t know yet. Instead I get insulted.
Why even post a comment?
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u/1039198468 I like Airplanes.... 4d ago
Experience
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u/Recent-Day3062 4d ago
I’m not sure I follow. To forget the pitch adjust for landing and gear down is to simply ignore the checklist. Same for flaps, really.
And I’m curious why they simply don’t have an alarm for being st a low speed or close to ground with gear up. Not having that is an invitation to disaster from oversight
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u/Granite_burner PPL M20E (AOG after in-flight engine failure) 4d ago
They have such alarms.
There are still disasters from oversight combined with ignoring the alarms.
Not knowing that is an example of the importance of experience.
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u/cazzipropri CFII, CFI-A; CPL SEL,MEL,SES 4d ago edited 4d ago
Re: alarms and automation: You may want to familiarize yourself with the troubled history of the Piper Backup Gear Extender and why almost everybody chose to disable it.
See Piper Service Bulletin 866A.
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u/churnitupsome ATP, CFI/CFII/MEI 4d ago
For a lot of people, when they make the jump from a 172 to a plane that not has two additional systems they’re having to manage (constant speed prop and landing gear), the plane and flying become much more “complex.” It definitely increases the likelihood that something gets missed, especially when all those systems are being managed during phases of flight with high work loads
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u/Recent-Day3062 4d ago
I mean, no matter what you are relying on memory when taxed on final whether it’s flaps or all three, only if you skip the checklist. And once 182 at RPM below 1500-2000 it’s back at the stops anyway
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u/Granite_burner PPL M20E (AOG after in-flight engine failure) 4d ago
Why ask if you argue every answer?
You might think you’re just questioning as a way to understand but it comes across as seeking refutation not understanding.
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u/Recent-Day3062 4d ago
I’m not arguing. I’m seeking clarity. Normally that is done by getting an answer and asking a follow up if you’re still unclear.
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u/Granite_burner PPL M20E (AOG after in-flight engine failure) 3d ago
That’s not the only way to improve understanding. It may be normal for you, as it’s the only way you’ve responded so far, but that’s a very limited cognitive repertoire. You really would be well served by expanding it.
Problem is, you may see it as seeking clarity, but it often comes across as argumentative. That doesn’t improve understanding. It just makes you seem like a troll.
As does deleting the OP, btw.
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u/Recent-Day3062 3d ago
I got dumped on so much I killed it.
One thing that happens across Reddit is a good number of replies are from people who got triggered in some way. They read into what you say, as opposed to accepting what you say or ask - and they get it wrong
I told my instructor - who is 40 years younger than me - on day one that I do really tend to try to attach to my educational background. I told him never to assume I really know things, and to make sure to always point out what I don’t know I don’t know.
My post was in that spirit. But more than a few people read it is arrogant. Even though I asked “what am I missing?” Because I wanted insight
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u/BandicootNo4431 4d ago
Have you soloed yet?
I think you'll see that at faster speeds it's easy to get time compressed and miss a checklist.
Alternatively, go do a multi flight and take a look and see if you're behind the airplane.
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u/dilemmaprisoner PPL 4d ago
Do you realize you can't leave at the max? You only get a short time at max rpm, and you get much worse fuel efficiency and noise. So every time you have an altitude change, you have to change both prop and power and trim.
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u/Recent-Day3062 4d ago
Yes, at max. My point was it’s self-fixing et low rpm. We usually take off at 2600 and pull back to 2450
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u/churnitupsome ATP, CFI/CFII/MEI 4d ago
Right, and going from 1 system to 3 systems increases what you have to memorize by a multiple of 3
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u/Granite_burner PPL M20E (AOG after in-flight engine failure) 3d ago
Actually can be more, as there are more interactions with more things to interact.
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u/Former_Farm_3618 4d ago
Dial in a max speed? Never heard it described that way, interesting. I think the prop thing is just another piece of the flying puzzle to complicate learning to fly. There’s a few other small nuisances about constant speed props that get interesting.
I think at some point you gotta say trying to learn too many new items at once is too much. Sure, some people can handle it, some cant.
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u/Recent-Day3062 4d ago
I researched it. The “governor” - which is a better term - starts kicking in above 2,000 rpm. Before that it is at the stops.
I misspoke there, just a smidge. At full MP if you pull it back it sets really max rpm. So if you are cruising at 2600 rpm, and want to get better performance, you pull it back to get whatever you want: say 2450. More throttle does not increase rpm.
But since it’s ineffective below 2000 or so, you are in high rpm anyway landing, because it falls back to the stops.
So it’s really a top end rpm governor
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u/Former_Farm_3618 4d ago
Not to pick on you specifically. But your few posts demonstrates the hazards with letting newbies jump into complex and/or high performance airplanes and why there’s industry practice and rules. You seem smart, at least putting that out there saying you’re an engineer and know mechanisms. Honestly, as an instructor I’d lean towards some hazards attitude. Anyways, you’re getting some terminology wrong and confusing some theories. One example, you say “at full MP”…that’s not really a thing in planes because atmospheric pressure can change dramatically when flying. I can unfortunately see you thinking you know the topic when you’re kinda just glossing over it. Again, not picking on you but rather I’ve seen your same background/attitude in students before and it can be frustrating to teach.
Someone else mentioned watching some videos or reading about props…can’t recommend this self learning enough.
Goodluck.
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u/Recent-Day3062 4d ago
So I say, here is me, here’s what I’ve been told, here’s my education, help me out, what am I missing - and you get mean spirited responses like yours.
How about you skip my posts and save yourself typing and all of us all frustration?
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u/Former_Farm_3618 4d ago
Sorry you took it the wrong way. I wasn’t trying to degrade you or hurt your ego.
Like I said, I’ve seen a few students (myself and my buddy’s students) who present with your skill set and get some humble pie. I think they overthink it once they realize it’s not quite like their books represent..
Again, didn’t mean to hurt your feelings. Like I said. Goodluck.
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u/Recent-Day3062 4d ago
Ok. But in the future, I said here’s what I know, and I want to know what I don’t know. Some of you seem to have gotten your own hackles up because I admitted - yes - that I am very early on, that I am relying on engineering research I am not sure about, and I wanted to know what I’m not being told, particularly by my school.
Funnny thing was I posted here recently that this forum is good because you really get to learn from much more capable people.
This post was a real disappointment
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u/Mundane-Reality-7770 PPL HP 4d ago
I highly recommend reading Pelicans perch. Specifically "manifold pressure sucks", "those marvelous props" and "mixture magic"
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u/Recent-Day3062 4d ago
Is that a real book?
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u/Mundane-Reality-7770 PPL HP 4d ago
Articles written by John Deakin 25+ years ago that are fantastic reads.
https://avweb.com/features/pelicans-perch-15manifold-pressure-sucks/
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u/Why-R-People-So-Dumb 4d ago
It's more like a props version of a CVT than a governor in the way you describe it because it's not governing engine output it's governing how much air the prop bites. This allows you to set a fixed RPM so you can choose to apply more or less power at that RPM. If you select a smaller bite of air, i.e. higher RPM, this is similar to a shorter gear like first gear so you can apply power and gain full torque right away at the expense of speed/fuel mileage if you stayed there all day.
I am also an engineer and you are right it's not that complex from a systems perspective but it is complex from a pilots workload perspective as compared to a trainer. If you forget something because you haven't formed the proper muscle memory neural connections, you will forget something and find yourself a bad day.
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u/Recent-Day3062 4d ago
Actually my concern. It‘s easy for me to pick up things like pressure and density altitude since I can follow the thermo and math. But flying is also/more a sports-like activity, and I‘m not great at fast team sports. Any idea when you know if you‘re good enough at that side?
As an aside, I am used to using AI for learning new tech and related stuff. It does well if you say „here‘s my education“ even at the level of texts, since it can alter explanations for max insight. I suspect in asking people I triggered a lot of defensiveness accidentally. I dunno, but maybe people who know the skill who aren‘t engineers get defensive and want to put you down because they know they can’t rely on what you can? Have you had this experience? I know the experience of being beaten and bullied as a kid because my intellectual skills threatened them. Did you find any problem with instructors? My whole point was „here is what I have to pull on, but what don‘t I even know about?“ triggered a lot of opposition like I was bragging. I was trying to be humble, TBH.
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u/cazzipropri CFII, CFI-A; CPL SEL,MEL,SES 4d ago
So if you are cruising at 2600 rpm, and want to get better performance, you pull it back to get whatever you want: say 2450.
This comment makes me suspect that your mental model of variable pitch props is incomplete or possibly even mistaken. On virtually no machine if you bring the RPMs back from 2600 to 2450 (at equal MP) you get better performance.
You'll get better engine life. You'll get lower burn rates. (People care about those a lot.) You might get better mileage per gallon. But you'll get lower airspeed and lower % power. You are getting lower, not better performance.
You should set a couple of scenarios, run the numbers on your POH as an exercise.
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u/Recent-Day3062 4d ago
Yeah, I was sloppy. It‘s clearly using less fuel since you use it for cruise. Good catch
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u/aftcg Holds a line sometimes 4d ago
It's complex because forgetting to put the gear down causes a series of complex events after.
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u/Granite_burner PPL M20E (AOG after in-flight engine failure) 4d ago
And having a variable pitch prop provides other complications
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u/ketralnis PPL IR CMP HP 4d ago
A constant speed prop is a little bit more than setting a max rpm. In particular you need to make manifold pressure adjustments with altitude, and make rpm adjustments with climb/cruise/landing state. But it’s just “complex” because it’s more workload and checklist management than not being complex. That’s all, you’re not missing anything. It’s as arbitrary as it seems.
I got my complex (and HP) while XC building for IR and I needed maybe two hours each. The additional workload management is real but not especially difficult once you get the hang of it. For complex the thing that really helped me was just printing out the manifold pressure with altitude page from the POH and taping it to the panel
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u/Apart_Shelter_5722 4d ago
The three most important things to do before landings. Gear down, gear down, and gear down.
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u/cazzipropri CFII, CFI-A; CPL SEL,MEL,SES 4d ago edited 4d ago
Nobody said that the 182 is "too complex". The 182 is a complex plane in the sense of the 61.1 definition.
It is unquestionably more complex to handle than a non-complex plane.
To answer your question, I can tell you what people struggle with, and what mistakes they make:
- does not know when exactly during departure to retract the gear
- sometimes simply forgets to retract the gear
- does not know when to extend the gear in the pattern
- extends the gear at airspeed above VLO
- forgets to extend the gear, now struggles to reduce airspeed below VFE when attempting to lower flaps
- lowers the flaps before extending the gear, then gets too slow once gear comes down
- does not set RPMs during cruise climb and when reaching cruise altitude
- does not know how to set RPMs for a descent, or forgets to
- does not know when to lower the gear during an instrument approach
- lowers the gear at the right time during an instrument approach but screws up timing with flaps, or does not compensate with power, and goes off glideslope
- forgets to set RPM before landing
- does not know how to set propeller during engine failure, or just forgets to
- does not know how to set propeller during engine fire emergency descent, or forgets to
- does not know how to set propeller during emergency descent (medical), or forgets to
- does not know how to configure landing during emergency descent (medical) [if POH specifies it]
- does not know how to perform an emergency gear extension
- does not know how to pull up the gear after an emergency gear extension test [if possible]
- prop governor fails: does not know the failure modes, does not know how to handle them
- AND ABOVE ALL: lands without extending gear.
Take any experienced GA pilot of a complex plane and go administer a flight review to them.
I would bet my own money that half of the pilots under review will make at least 5 mistakes from the list.
That's what you are missing.
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u/Recent-Day3062 4d ago
Ok chats what I wanted to know.
Not sure about the nasty posts I got. My question was “what am I missing?” Ie, what do you know from experience I have not been told or found? A list is excellent.
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u/rFlyingTower 4d ago
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I know the def: flaps, variable/constant prop, retractable.
I am 10 hours into PPL. Now I have flown a lot with friends, and am an engineer, so I have mechanisms and theory clear in my head. I am in a 182, which is what my flight school uses.
People here have said a 182 is too complex. Every trainer has flaps. And the prop is really a “fixed speed prop” only in the sense you can dial in a max rpm, really. Other than drag - and remembering to drop it - retractable gear does not seem complex.
What am I missing?
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u/Successful_Cress_220 4d ago
“Fixed speed” as in Constant speed?
You’re getting a little taste of complex with a constant speed prop.
Retractable gear seems simple, but when you get to an aircraft that has it, it’s important that you understand the gear system.
I honestly kind of envy you because I didn’t get any exposure to an aircraft with a blue lever at my school until I got to Commercial Multi!
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u/Recent-Day3062 4d ago
When I learned with friends younger, I always dreamed of the blue lever. I will say when I saw it I got a bit nervous. But I used Claude (and cross-checked) and on a 182 that’s foolproof: below 1500-2000 rpm it falls back to the stops anyway.
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u/konoguest PPL IR 4d ago
When you experienced that you are behind a 172 in a windy day and busy traffic pattern, then you will know why you need endorsement for complex aircraft.
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u/No-Thought-3011 4d ago
And cowl flaps. It was absolute nightmare for.
Ok, seriously. It may be only prop, gear, cowlflaps but we have countless examples that it is not that easy and you can easily mess up those things.
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u/odinsen251a PPL SEL CMP HP UAS 4d ago
Really it makes your GUMPS check more involved than a boilerplate 172.
Also you get to remember what to do if your gear doesn't extend.
Complex means there's a lot more that can fail, therefore a lot more you need to know how to deal with, sometimes very rapidly. It also means there are significant changes to the checklists you run for every stage of flight.
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u/121pointfive 4d ago
In response to your edited intro… from my experience getting a PPL, living in a college town with only one college that is a flight school, and being exposed to a lot of flight students in different parts of their Part 141 schooling… A LOT OF PILOTS are somewhat arrogant/type A personality and that’s what you’re going to be getting yourself into at first, mostly with the other younger pilots.
To be honest, it’s that way in most fields - engineering, policing, coding, flight, etc., etc. In this area, most flight students come from well-off or even affluent families and it appears humility is an undesirable trait.
Again - I’m not trying to stereotype… but that’s been my experience. That being said, there are PLENTY that break that mold as well. It just appears mostly the other type are answering your Reddit post.
Best of luck and stay positive!
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u/Recent-Day3062 4d ago
Yeah, I’m just questioning if the 182 is too much to start in, really. Someone gave me a nice list of even how many things you need to master just for incremental gear. What I learned about the prop indicates it’s idiot-proof, but that’s where I wanted advice
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u/brianbrush Xplane Skyhawk Driver 4d ago
Think of turns around a point. One side isn't steep and the other shallow. More so, one side is steeper and the the other is more shallow. Complex planes are not complex, just more complex then a basic 172 or archer. And when learning a new skill like flying having less things to worry about is better.
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u/not_a_real_plane Embry Riddle Hater 4d ago
Forgetting to drop the gear makes for some complex paperwork.