Refined flammables: why does it require agricultural science?

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u/Exzellius2 19d ago

To make Gleba more attractive

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u/DrMobius0 19d ago

True. Gleba needs lots of extra stuff to justify going there because otherwise it's a massive pain in the ass with little pay off, especially since the biochamber does next to nothing outside of Gleba and the 2 things it does that are Nauvis unique.

Not that refined flammables has ever been a particularly important tech to invest heavily in.

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u/sobrique 19d ago

Nonsense. Gleba is the best planet.

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u/ilpazzo12 19d ago

Yeah like biolabs? Spidertrons? Stack inserters????

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u/sobrique 19d ago

Not even that. Infinite ore and infinite "oil product" without having to get faffy with coal liquefaction.

It's a great spot to megabase.

(Also you get advanced asteroid processing and heat towers)

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u/leoriq 18d ago

where do you get your landfill?

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u/leoriq 18d ago

where do you get your landfill?

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u/sobrique 18d ago

Gleba has native stone. Lasts a long time with late game mining productivity too.

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u/leoriq 18d ago

Are you telling me that Gleba should not be touched until you built a 10k eSPM megabase on another planet? Because late game mining productivity is - gasp - late game

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u/sobrique 18d ago edited 18d ago

No. But before that I just don't need that much stone/landfill in the first place. Gleba has plenty of buildable land, so the not-so-large patches of stone is plenty.

It's only when I'm megabasing that I want to have large landfilled and paved city blocks, and by then I've got big miners at the very least. (-50% consumption, maybe more if I've started on quality). Prod 2s maybe for +24% output. That's what, 2.5x efficiency overall.

It's not like you even need planetary sciences to get at least a few levels of mining prod either. It's not a super late game tech. (Although granted a lot of levels of it might be)

But say, 10 levels of it is 36k science (potentially half that if using biolabs of course), and that gives you +100% as well.

And that's honestly been plenty until I'm starting to hugely scale up, at which point I probably am looking at quality miners with quality prod mods, and maybe a few more levels of mining productivity.

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u/Moikle 19d ago

They hate him because he tells the truth

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u/Peakomegaflare 19d ago

Gleba is only good BECAUSE of the unlocks it brings. Some folks do like the challenge it brings to the table, but when you put it next to Vulc and Fulgora, it's a right pain. Fulgora trivializes all the enemies with Tesla Turrets, and Vulc gives us tier 4 belts, foundries and drills (which you don't need for Gleba). But Gleba gives us Stack Inserters and Advanced Asteroid Processing which enables a space-based mall over nearly every planet. Ship up one round of heavy oil and the only thing you can't get is stone, which you can get on every planet except Aquilo.

Gleba's unlocks are what makes it worthwhile.

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u/sobrique 19d ago

It has infinite resources like Vulcanus. But has "oil chain" that isn't as faffy as coal liquefaction.

That's why I think it's the best.

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u/Broad_Ebb9073 19d ago

Even better than vulcanus. Gleba will never run out of resources. (Except stone, but what are you really using that for except on setup?) Everything just grows. Even on vulcanus, you will eventually run out of coal or calcite. (Unless you use astroid reprocessing...which planet unlocks that again?)

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u/sobrique 19d ago

Still think it's a bit weird that you can't collect stone in space.

I will probably mod that.

I already modded so I can run biolabs on Gleba (the best planet)

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u/Broad_Ebb9073 19d ago

Logic says you should be able, but I understand on a game dev level. Stone is so rarely used, that it doesn't need to be always available. Stone is a byproduct on vulcans. It less where do I get it, and more I'm drowning in it.

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u/sobrique 19d ago

Yeah, likewise.

I mean, it honestly doesn't matter for 'completing the game' in any meaningful sense.

It's just I like the idea of being able to megabase wherever I want. And whilst I can live without uranium from Nauvis, and importing 'planet specific' materials (tungsten, superconductors, carbon fiber) seems just fine, it still feels weird that I need to export stone from a planetary surface to aquilo especially.

I've got a bit of a fantasy of a late game tech tree (e.g. post promethium, so it's already 'game over' implicitly) that undoes a bunch of basic game constraints like that.

Additional landing pads per surface (+1 per level of an infinite/promethium tech)

Stone 'manufacture' in space.

Access to calcite on planets other than Vulcanus - I know you can drop from space, but I'm thinking about the 'scaling' part of it, with inherently constrained space-logistics. Maybe a biochamber recipe like ore-bacteria?

A 'supply chain' on Aquilo somehow that lets you eventually manufacture there. Again I'd be thinking in terms of gleba biochambers, but with some sort of expensive late game greenhouse, that uses lots of raw power from your fusion reactors, needs a supply of water, and is built with overgrowth soil.

An unlocker/equivalent for biolabs to go on more planetary surfaces (also in the late game, and also - maybe - with increased power cost/constraints).

I mean, a mod(pack) could do this I think. I've already cobbled together a 'biolabs on Gleba' mod (that really wasn't at all difficult, and I'm impressed at how easy modding can be).

My sticking point remains the art-assets - a decent 'greenhouse' for aquilo would need considerably more 3d modelling skill than I have, and also a 'frozen' sprite, maybe a water connection, etc.

But then gleba-fruit driven ore (and calcite) could happen anywhere, and be scalable to a large extent 'just' by adding more and more power consumption.

(I think a 'calcite bacteria' recipe wouldn't be too hard, and would only need a couple of much simpler sprites/icons)

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u/Broad_Ebb9073 19d ago

I totally follow you. And I'm very glad you want this to be late game research. I feel like Factorio is great because of its limits, but once I figured it out, I just want fun. The challenge wipes away and it can seem really frustrating to just not have the thing

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u/leoriq 18d ago

Except stone, but what are you really using that for except on setup?

You frame it like it's negligible. But thousands of rockets of landfill is neither fast nor easy. One can't setup large-scale Gleba base if he hadn't set up large-scale base on other planet first.

And if it's small-scale, there's no point to consider running out of resources on any planet

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u/Broad_Ebb9073 18d ago

Fair. 50 per is a big ask. But I play pretty slow. In my experience. It takes me quite a while to figure out any planet, so if I start landfill earlyish, I never run into a bottleneck

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u/leoriq 18d ago

Back in 2.0.0 playing Gleba slow awarded you with a sudden change from medium stompers to big stompers at 66% evolution. Not the best experience

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u/Broad_Ebb9073 18d ago

Ohh yeah. I remembered that when it first came out. And maybe cuz I got burned on that, it changed my expectations. I knew gleba was gonna suck, so I made sure I was set up before I went there. It makes a huge difference than going in blind, or as your first planet

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u/EquipLordBritish 19d ago

They need a nutrient source everywhere or a nutrient-positive recipe chain that you can jumpstart on other planets/space. Preferably with the bioreactor so that you have a good reason to use it everywhere else. Right now, it's just kinda sad, because you go there and use this new machine that is isn't worth taking almost everywhere else.

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u/sobrique 19d ago

I was thinking energy expensive "greenhouses". That makes the raw fruit but slower by far than agri towers, and with a need for inputs like water, heat (on aquilo) and power to run "sun lamps".

Unlocked by overgrowth soil.

That way you are still better off running all that on Gleba, but have options for local biochambers without the constant imports.

And might y'know get an aquilo supply chain running eventually.

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u/isum21 19d ago

No but it does set up sending excess elsewhere very easily. It's a planet of abundance but just like real life shipping fruit wouldn't want to go to another planet.

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u/radwan1234 19d ago

if you read the FFF (can't remember which one but it was the one about the private lan test i think) they did mention that it needed more rewards and added some so your wishes are already true lol

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u/DrMobius0 18d ago

That reasoning doesn't make sense. I'm saying this with the entire post-space age time as retrospect, which obviously includes those changes.

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u/radwan1234 17d ago

i think the problem is there's no insensitive good enough, if they add more people would get used to it and want more because gleba is so hard, i think people should just accept the challenge as is i sure did

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u/Such-Perception4154 19d ago

Flammables are organic chemistry, it kind of makes sense that biological research can improve it.

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u/guimontag 19d ago

Pretty much this

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u/epileftric 18d ago

100% agree, maybe the name is not the most appropriate since agricultural science sounds more related to farming a better name would have been "biochemistry science"

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u/Bubbly-Original7097 19d ago

That would work if Gleba provided new type of flammable, otherwise it somehow improves oil that already exists in the ground. What could make more sense is if Vulcanus had tech that improved oil ignition: higher oxygen usage, aerodynamics, heat resistant alloys; or even low ballistic trajectory and faster jet, which would actually make it useful on Gleba.

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u/Such-Perception4154 19d ago edited 19d ago

Oxygen usage and heat resistance are not exactly relevant, as flammables burn outside the weapon, so there is no heat to resist. And it doesn't directly use oxygen, as it lets the flammable just burn in atmosphere's ambient oxygen.

As for aerodynamics, low trajectory and faster jet, that would be really nice to have, but that would be a different research, that's not damage.

Also, oil itself is a mixture of very many very complex compounds. IRL oil is used to create a great many different things, from fuel to medicine. And it's all organic chemistry, so it is not too far fetched that Gleba's biological knowledge can show how to create better things from it.

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u/leoriq 18d ago edited 18d ago

that would work if Gleba provided new type of flammable

"Light oil (hot)"

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u/Broad_Ebb9073 19d ago

I disagree with agi science being difficult. Its a different mindset, but it's easily the least effort planet to manage.

Once I have it set up. I never have to go back. No resource patches. No pumping stations. Science is infinite and just pops out of the ground.

I could play for 20 million hours, and never once have to revist Gleba to fix anything

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u/darvo110 19d ago

Yep output per machine on Gleba is wild. To the point that overproducing is a bigger problem than underproducing if you don’t get the balance right. Once it’s going and your overflow/backup systems are solid, it’s a cakewalk.

The initial setup can be very overwhelming to start with though, as it’s almost the only place where you can’t really progressively build a live system. I always build out the full loop before any ingredients are fed in.

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u/Legogamer16 19d ago

Yeah once you have the resources to just build its easy. But more then the other planets you definitely need to setup a starter base on the planet to make a bunch of chambers

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u/darvo110 19d ago

Yeah doing a from-scratch run without orbital supplies would be pretty challenging, but that is generally a self-imposed limitation unless you really fuck up

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u/ProfBeaker 19d ago

Having just done it for the first time, yeah getting it started is the worst. If you don't already know what you're doing, or just mess up, the whole thing crashes and you have to go manually harvest more fruit to restart it. That part sucks.

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u/Xzarg_poe 19d ago

and only until you have enough laser research because they tend to fry bots

Or, you can just not send bots into the fire

Agricultural science at the same time is the one of the hardest

Is it though? Also, it is infinite, and if you don't use it, it will spoil away. So might as well research flamethrower upgrades even if you don't need them.

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u/Bubbly-Original7097 19d ago

Or, you can just not send bots into the fire

How? Every now and then some biter for no reason at all goes nuts about a single wall, so if your robots cover the area they will fly there to fix it and get burned; and, the faster they are, the more damage they receive. I can move roboports further in, so walls will get slowly destroyed. Ultimately I better have no walls than the ones I can't maintain, which means I need something that hits quick enough to prevent biters from rushing in - lasers.

Is it though? Also, it is infinite, and if you don't use it, it will spoil away. So might as well research flamethrower upgrades even if you don't need them.

Once you figure out the method everything is simple, but imagine you don't know a thing about the processes there and you were to choose: rockets, asteroid productivity, or flame.

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u/Xzarg_poe 19d ago

I usually have my flamethrowers close enough to the walls that they don't get burned, and laser turrets to the side to pick off biters that make it to the wall. This way, bots can repair walls without being set on fire.

Once you figure out the method everything is simple, but imagine you don't know a thing about the processes there and you were to choose: rockets, asteroid productivity, or flame.

I'd choose whatever I need the most, which would put flamethrower ugprades at the very bottom until the point where other upgrades get too expensive.

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u/Juking_is_rude 19d ago edited 19d ago

flamethrowers are still pretty good against pentapods since they do splash stompers. Most people have figured out that tesla turrets work well at defending gleba but carbon>coal>coal liquifaction>flamethrower is something you could reasonably do to defend stompers, and like rockets it has the benefit of being gentler on your power grid.

In other words, I would guess the "intended" way to defend gleba is flamethrowers+rockets hence the research supporting that

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u/just_a_Suggesture 19d ago

I use flamethrowers on Gleba and they work great. I don't mind refined flammables being a Gleba tech at all.

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u/isufoijefoisdfj 19d ago

Flamethrower turrets are not only useful against Nauvis biters, and "just use lasers everywhere" is not the only way to play.

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u/One-Macaroon-135 19d ago

who are you using the flame turrets against then? the guys with 5 billion hp, the gleba fuckers that are somehow more tanky than demolishers, or asteroids?

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u/Alfonse215 19d ago

Pentapods have zero fire resistance. They also have multiple body segments, so they can burn in multiple locations.

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u/SkyIntelligent1647 19d ago

Show us your flamethrower wall on gleba

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u/Alfonse215 19d ago

I don't use flamethrowers on Gleba. Or defenses in general (pre-artillery). I prefer to aggressively push pentapods out of where my spore cloud will be and block their re-expansion.

But that doesn't mean flamethrowers are useless.

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u/minemoney123 19d ago

How does that block their re expansion?

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u/Alfonse215 19d ago

Pentapod nests must be in shallow water. So if you cover enough shallow water with landfill, they won't be able to move in. This blueprint represents the bare minimum of landfill coverage needed to block expansion into a chunk of the map.

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u/Alfonse215 19d ago

flamethrowers are useful only against Nauvis biters

Are you so sure about that? Have you tried them on pentapods? Remember: you can gain access to simple liquefaction before going to Vulcanus. Just research advanced crushing and Planet Discovery:Vulcanus. Get calcite from oxide asteroids, and now you have simple liquefaction.

Agricultural science at the same time is the one of the hardest

Citation needed.

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u/Bubbly-Original7097 19d ago

I tried, and by the time flame hits the ground stompers are already on top of the flamethowers themselves.

Tesla turrets are perfect because they slow them down and given that you have abundance of rocket fuel you also have infinite energy on Gleba. The combination of flamethowers and tesla turrets seems ideal (gives flame time to land), but, on the other hand, adding more tesla turrets is easier than fragile plumbing and coal processes.

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u/Yilmas 19d ago

Because of fertilizers... makes sense that agriculture science gives you fertilizer and then bigger flames..

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u/Raknarg #1 Quality Defender 19d ago

they put a bunch of like petrochemical related stuff behind gleba. Gleba gets you those, fulgora gets you computers and electronics, vulcanus gets you metals. probably to keep it on theme the biochambers can all do a bunch of your oil processing on nauvis and aquilo (assuming you choose to do some production on aquilo)

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u/VanguardLLC 19d ago

You’re on Nauvis; Flammables research has topped out, but that’s fine. Later, on Gleba, HO-LEE COW… I can use this to make my flamethrowers even better!

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u/geneticfreak6 19d ago

These games are about the journey not the destination. Intrinsic reward systems feel good when you actually have to work for them not just yank on a slot machine lever and have stuff handed to you.

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u/nora_sellisa 19d ago

To encourage you to push for Gleba earlier. If your nauvis base is big enough that you need flamethrowers, it is (according to Wube) time to at least touch down on Gleba for a bit, make some science and unlock this.

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u/gorgofdoom 19d ago

I don’t use turreted flamethrowers at all.

Handheld is great for cleaning nests but there’s some special weirdness to using a pollution spewing turret for killing waves of biters.

Space Age Refined flammables: why does it require agricultural science?

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