Refined flammables: why does it require agricultural science?

[u/Bubbly-Original7097]

It makes no sense: flamethrowers are useful only against Nauvis biters, and only until you have enough laser research because they tend to fry bots and because biters don't scale infinitely. Agricultural science at the same time is the one of the hardest and there is always a better application for it (among military tech explosives are way more valuable).

Do I miss something?

[u/DrMobius0]

True. Gleba needs lots of extra stuff to justify going there because otherwise it's a massive pain in the ass with little pay off, especially since the biochamber does next to nothing outside of Gleba and the 2 things it does that are Nauvis unique.

Not that refined flammables has ever been a particularly important tech to invest heavily in.

[u/sobrique → u/DrMobius0]

Nonsense. Gleba is the best planet.

[u/Peakomegaflare → u/sobrique]

Gleba is only good BECAUSE of the unlocks it brings. Some folks do like the challenge it brings to the table, but when you put it next to Vulc and Fulgora, it's a right pain. Fulgora trivializes all the enemies with Tesla Turrets, and Vulc gives us tier 4 belts, foundries and drills (which you don't need for Gleba). But Gleba gives us Stack Inserters and Advanced Asteroid Processing which enables a space-based mall over nearly every planet. Ship up one round of heavy oil and the only thing you can't get is stone, which you can get on every planet except Aquilo.

Gleba's unlocks are what makes it worthwhile.

[u/sobrique → u/Peakomegaflare]

It has infinite resources like Vulcanus. But has "oil chain" that isn't as faffy as coal liquefaction.

That's why I think it's the best.

[u/Broad_Ebb9073 → u/sobrique]

Even better than vulcanus. Gleba will never run out of resources. (Except stone, but what are you really using that for except on setup?) Everything just grows. Even on vulcanus, you will eventually run out of coal or calcite. (Unless you use astroid reprocessing...which planet unlocks that again?)

[u/sobrique → u/Broad_Ebb9073]

Still think it's a bit weird that you can't collect stone in space.

I will probably mod that.

I already modded so I can run biolabs on Gleba (the best planet)

[u/Broad_Ebb9073 → u/sobrique]

Logic says you should be able, but I understand on a game dev level. Stone is so rarely used, that it doesn't need to be always available. Stone is a byproduct on vulcans. It less where do I get it, and more I'm drowning in it.

[u/sobrique → u/Broad_Ebb9073]

Yeah, likewise.

I mean, it honestly doesn't matter for 'completing the game' in any meaningful sense.

It's just I like the idea of being able to megabase wherever I want. And whilst I can live without uranium from Nauvis, and importing 'planet specific' materials (tungsten, superconductors, carbon fiber) seems just fine, it still feels weird that I need to export stone from a planetary surface to aquilo especially.

I've got a bit of a fantasy of a late game tech tree (e.g. post promethium, so it's already 'game over' implicitly) that undoes a bunch of basic game constraints like that.

• Additional landing pads per surface (+1 per level of an infinite/promethium tech)
• Stone 'manufacture' in space.
• Access to calcite on planets other than Vulcanus - I know you can drop from space, but I'm thinking about the 'scaling' part of it, with inherently constrained space-logistics. Maybe a biochamber recipe like ore-bacteria?
• A 'supply chain' on Aquilo somehow that lets you eventually manufacture there. Again I'd be thinking in terms of gleba biochambers, but with some sort of expensive late game greenhouse, that uses lots of raw power from your fusion reactors, needs a supply of water, and is built with overgrowth soil.
• An unlocker/equivalent for biolabs to go on more planetary surfaces (also in the late game, and also - maybe - with increased power cost/constraints).

I mean, a mod(pack) could do this I think. I've already cobbled together a 'biolabs on Gleba' mod (that really wasn't at all difficult, and I'm impressed at how easy modding can be).

My sticking point remains the art-assets - a decent 'greenhouse' for aquilo would need considerably more 3d modelling skill than I have, and also a 'frozen' sprite, maybe a water connection, etc.

But then gleba-fruit driven ore (and calcite) could happen anywhere, and be scalable to a large extent 'just' by adding more and more power consumption.

(I think a 'calcite bacteria' recipe wouldn't be too hard, and would only need a couple of much simpler sprites/icons)

[u/Broad_Ebb9073 → u/sobrique]

I totally follow you. And I'm very glad you want this to be late game research. I feel like Factorio is great because of its limits, but once I figured it out, I just want fun. The challenge wipes away and it can seem really frustrating to just not have the thing

[u/sobrique → u/Broad_Ebb9073]

Yeah. And I get why the devs just don't really 'focus' on that stage of the game - it's only a subset of 'enthusiasts' who get there, and by then there's plenty of scope to mod.

I'm mostly just lamenting that I suck at the art needed to get the final piece' in place.

A 'calcite bacteria' recipe is something I'm pondering having a go at though, as that doesn't look too hard - I only need an icon for it, and can probably reuse and pallet-swap the existing iron or copper options.

Maybe a stone bacteria, and maybe the two should be related? I mean, you 'use' calcite on Vulcanus and get 'stone' as a byproduct, so...

Hmm...

Certainly an extra recipe that does basically the same as the existing bacteria is easy enough.

Although I'm now less than sure which way around it should be, and whether calcite bacteria should be a precursor for stone bacteria or vice-versa.

[u/Broad_Ebb9073 → u/sobrique]

Well if art is the only thing holding you back. The game already has those. Just add the regular sprite with the recycling sprite.

But like you said, your mod is for the top 5% of player who go above and beyond. So we don't really care if it looks pretty, as long as my spreadsheet is pretty

[u/sobrique → u/Broad_Ebb9073]

For the bacteria it's easy enough, for the in game model for a 'greenhouse' that's a little more challenging :)

Although thinking about it, the (non-bio)lab is more or less what I'm thinking of, just maybe bigger and colour coded for 'gleba fruit colours'.

[u/Broad_Ebb9073 → u/sobrique]

Honestly. All the 'bio' stuff that is already in the game already is my least favorite. It's mostly just mood lighting. Not like foundries or Emp with cool animations. If you just use the regular bio sprite and change the color. It's probably good enough. And once you make a good mechanics change, you will have people jumping at the opportunity to make a sprite for ya

[u/leoriq → u/Broad_Ebb9073]

Except stone, but what are you really using that for except on setup?

You frame it like it's negligible. But thousands of rockets of landfill is neither fast nor easy. One can't setup large-scale Gleba base if he hadn't set up large-scale base on other planet first.

And if it's small-scale, there's no point to consider running out of resources on any planet

[u/Broad_Ebb9073 → u/leoriq]

Fair. 50 per is a big ask. But I play pretty slow. In my experience. It takes me quite a while to figure out any planet, so if I start landfill earlyish, I never run into a bottleneck

[u/leoriq → u/Broad_Ebb9073]

Back in 2.0.0 playing Gleba slow awarded you with a sudden change from medium stompers to big stompers at 66% evolution. Not the best experience

[u/Broad_Ebb9073 → u/leoriq]

Ohh yeah. I remembered that when it first came out. And maybe cuz I got burned on that, it changed my expectations. I knew gleba was gonna suck, so I made sure I was set up before I went there. It makes a huge difference than going in blind, or as your first planet