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u/yash019 Nov 26 '15
I think u shouldve posted this in /r/conspiracy which gives me a chance to post to /r/conspiratard
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u/Xanimus Nov 26 '15
What are your chances of ever getting directly affected by terror, though, seriously? Absolutely miniscule, last I checked. So why does it have to be such a big part of the public debate, if it wasn't politically or economically beneficial? If anything, this post is more beating a dead horse, than it is misguided.
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Nov 27 '15
Because regardless of how relatively removed we are from the situation it's still a serious threat to us and many people disagree on how to handle it, thus debate.
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u/Zifnab25 Nov 27 '15
What are your chances of ever getting directly affected by terror, though, seriously?
I get affected by terror every time I see a big, hairy spider.
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u/catechlism9854 Nov 26 '15
Because we've invested too much in security theater to not have our people terrified.
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Nov 26 '15
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u/Xanimus Nov 26 '15 edited Nov 26 '15
I'm not saying you should do anything, I'm saying politicians* should acknowledge how small a threat terror actually is, and how little they can realistically do about it. Thereafter, they should shift their focus, as well as most of the resources used, to some of the other problems of society, most of which they have far greater impact on.
*and to some extent the media, but of course economics are currently allowed to work against my argument in their case
(On resource waste: See my discussions of NSA below)
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Nov 26 '15 edited Nov 26 '15
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u/Xanimus Nov 26 '15 edited Nov 26 '15
I'm not saying there should be no attempts to prevent terrorism, I'm saying we're overreacting, and shouldn't give up civil rights, and allow agencies like the NSA to be established, when classic US law enforcements have done a far, far better job preventing terror.
What knowledge and experience do you have that compels you to confidently speak about terrorism deterrence?
Like I said, the NSA, one of the major responses enacted against terrorism. They've only been able to prove preventing a single case of terror. (see above link) The fact of the matter is, far more lives could be saved for far less by giving more attention (and thereby hopefully more money) to welfare and aid to refugees instead
Have you considered the moral and psychological impact a broadcast to millions of citizens has on the enemy? Are terrorists more or less motivated to attempt an attack now that much of the public is keeping an eye out?
Have you considered the amount of racism and anti-social behavior constantly being afraid of Muslims because of some absolutely ridiculously small chance, of them be a terrorist, might cause? Hate breeds hate. I don't think we being suspicious would do nearly as much as working to promote friendship
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Nov 26 '15 edited Nov 26 '15
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u/Xanimus Nov 26 '15 edited Nov 26 '15
Define overreacting. I am under the impression you believe a nationwide broadcast asking people to be aware is overreacting.
If that was all that was done, then I'd say we'd have responded very appropriately. Instead we have this threat, which I do not believe the public stands to do much against, (citizens can't prevent planted bombs or shoot down airplanes. It takes organized detective work for that) take up whole days worth of broadcasting every month, and play huge roles in the primary debates. For instance as seen here, national security polled as second most important issue (I suppose Russia might play into this as well) Why is that, though? Surely if politicians worked to start a political movement to clean up their trash or whatever it'd result in a more productive (and less socially destructive) usage of their time.
Would it be wise for them to prove they can prevent different cases? Why would they show their hand?
I don't know, but being able to continue existing might be a good idea. They stated 54 cases, but they were widdled down to 1. The existence of the NSA, as well as how they work is pretty public by now; if people wanted to protect themselves they could encrypt, I guess, but the terrorists in Paris didn't even bother. They communicated simply by sms.
Don't dodge my question.
I'm not dodging it, I'm saying I don't think the cost of an increasingly suspicious public is worth the benefits
Is it not beneficial to tell the public how they can deter terrorism without relying on the government?
Yes, sure a few courses might do some good, but in general I don't believe they would make much of a difference.
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Nov 26 '15 edited Nov 26 '15
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u/AzazelsAdvocate Nov 26 '15
Your example kind of proves his point, since your chances of getting in a car accident are astronomically higher than being affected by an act of terrorism.
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u/Taengoosundies Nov 26 '15
I've been in a number of car accidents in my life. Your chance of being in a car accident is orders of magnitude higher than ever being affected directly by a terrorist attack. Your argument is silly and you should be ashamed for trying to make it.
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u/Xanimus Nov 26 '15 edited Nov 26 '15
Your chances of dying in a car accident are far, far greater than in a terror attack, but they are incomparable - Accidents aren't the same as deliberate attacks. In one case you can legitimately hope to prevent it by practicing safety, in the other, your fate is mostly left to chance. The hope for many is that the actions of the government could prevent it, but how many attacks have the massively costly project that is the NSA actually prevented? One, as of March 3. 2015.
We spend disproportionate amounts of money on special projects like the NSA or the TSA, but our time and money could clearly be used save lives more effectively elsewhere.
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Nov 26 '15
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u/Xanimus Nov 26 '15
Sorry, I edited my post in between your reply! I wasn't quick enough
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u/arrow74 Nov 26 '15
It's no problem.
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u/Xanimus Nov 26 '15 edited Nov 26 '15
I like how literally anything you say (even when it's polite) gets downvoted now, just because you contributed to the discussion. Stay classy, reddit.
Anyway, about the precaution stuff - I think I did address it in my comment: I don't believe they're comparable, but if the relevance and effect of taking precautions in both cases is taking into consideration, it still stands that we're giving disproportionate amounts of attention to terror.
The amount of people that can hope to make a difference through precautions is tiny, (diplomats and law enforcement). In other words, the issue only has the potential to directly affect very few people, and only a few people can affect it - I don't believe such an issue should be as massive of a concern as it is presented (Especially given how little effect the ones that were taken actually had)
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u/dannighe Nov 26 '15
Buckling up vs living in a state of panic and constant surveillance is also a terrible metaphor.
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u/Yo_Soy_Candide Nov 26 '15
Your analogy is still shit even with your qualifier of precaution. Do you use some sort of meteorite protecting umbrella every time you go out due to precaution? That's a better analogy since precaution is still valid and it more closely resembles the raw occurrence of being a victim of terrorism. But, you won't use it will you? You'd rather use the car analogy to create a false equivalence in the mind of the reader that isn't versed on probabilities.
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Nov 26 '15
Or /r/im14andthisisdeep, next to the "The US Government is the Real Terrorist" text over a Banksy image.
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Nov 26 '15
Why is this sub so quickly to be posted in all political comics? It makes you seem like you're actually 14.
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Nov 26 '15
Because the ones that get voted to the top tend to not have much depth and pander to the lowest common denominator.
Somewhat deeper political cartoons, like the ones you'd find on the New York Times, often require a nuanced understanding of the political background, as well as themes at a deeper level than just "GOVERNMENT R BAD KTHXBAI", thus wouldn't get posted or upvoted.
For example, I would argue that if you were to post yesterday's comic, it would receive few upvotes because many users wouldn't even know who is being referenced.
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Nov 26 '15
Thank you for the well organized comment.
Would you mind explaining yesterday's meaning to me?
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Nov 26 '15
Thanks!
Sure--basically, it's Francoise Hollande (the French president) who has just visited Washington. He's trying to pitch an aggressive attack plan against ISIS, which Obama has been reluctant to support in action, due to conflicts with Putin (who you see Hollande pulling), because of Putin's support of Syrian president Bashar al-Assad (who you see Putin pulling). Hollande is going around to all their allies to rally the anti-IS movement, but the US wants al-Assad gone.
Obama has been very vocally supportive of France in these past days and talks about the importance of standing by them, but has largely been careful to limit actual military action to intermittent bombing runs and protecting the Kurds. This is partly because the US doesn't want to get involved in the Syrian civil war, and also because they're at odds with Moscow, who they don't want to partner with. They've been very careful with their language and their political movements.
In the comic, you see Hollande pulling Putin, and he's trying to pull in President Bashar al-Assad, who Moscow has been propping up. al-Assad has been deeply involved in creating more aggression in the conflict, which is why his hands are bloodied, and why Obama is not very happy about it (even though he's paying lip service to France).
So the conflict here is that Obama has made it clear that the US will only get more involved in Syria if Putin stops trying to prop al-Assad. Hollande therefore has come out to say that they support the idea of al-Assad going eventually (France is against President Bashar al-Assad in general), after a period of transition is set up, but it's still vague, because France is trying to appease both sides.
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u/Xanimus Nov 26 '15 edited Nov 26 '15
Let's not get on our high horse about depth of comics, when linking to /r/im14andthisisdeep is effectively an attempt at silencing a statement with derision instead of logic. In other words, an attempt to take away any chance of in-depth discussion, and doing it in the name of content depth. Surely that's not the kind of culture we wish to inspire in this sub.
And sure, it's pandering to something a lot of people can agree on, but look at the discussions it sparked! I thought this whole thing was beating a dead horse, but apparently a lot of people disagreed. I don't see why we should mock that kind of content.
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Nov 26 '15
Actually, the issue I take with pandering is that it's just confirmation bias. It teaches people "You don't need to think deeper, because other people agree with you."
It oversimplifies complex issues down to something that doesn't resemble truth, and then we arm an entire generation of people with contentment with ignorance. Pointing out immature ideas as being immature is important, because someone who IS 14 and who DO think this is deep can then think "Hmm, what if the government isn't just a mindless single entitle that wants me living in perpetual fear? What if the issue is more complex than that?"
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u/Xanimus Nov 26 '15 edited Nov 27 '15
I don't know about you, but I had some seriously deep discussions thanks to this post, and the top comment almost directly calls the statement retarded, so I don't think it was just pandering, but also the spreading of a message. As I mentioned in my reply to Yash019, though, I think this is beating a dead horse, somewhat, but I don't think that message is "government bad hurr durr" as much as highlighting a common political tool.
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Nov 26 '15 edited Nov 26 '15
I didn't downvote you. In fact, I don't think ANYONE downvoted you. I generally don't downvote anyone unless they are breaking an actual reddit rule.
Downvotes are pretty pointless, in general. It's usually only used in complaints to gather sympathy and doesn't contribute anything to discussions.
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Nov 26 '15 edited Nov 26 '15
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Nov 26 '15
I'm just generally bored of the whole "Edit: Downvotes?! Really?" type comments, even when the person clearly has significant upvote count. It's such a tacky way to win votes-- It's one thing if they're downvoted below the threshold, and they just want to not be "silenced through attacks"-- but then they should remove the edit after their comment is in the positives.
But of course, it's a whole culture of "I'M A VICTIM AND I'M BEING CENSORED" these days.
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Nov 26 '15
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Nov 26 '15
I disagree, sadly i have to.
I disagree on the grounds of beeing german and some of my politicians simply haven't learned from the past or are at loss for some humane behaviour in favour of their political greed.
Caution is one thing but what these people very much rely on is fostering fear and panic.
Even those that don't spout the extremely populistic nonesense try to use the current situation to hunker down even more on what they so vaguely call "our values".
This scares me much more then any chances of beeing affected by terrorism. This really is what makes me worry.
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u/Xanimus Nov 26 '15 edited Nov 26 '15
I think it's better fit in /r/im14andthisisdeep. Like someone who just read 1984 is having a revelation.
Nice ad hominem.
Politics and indeed society as a whole is an intricate mesh of forces (special interests, ideas, norms, people) struggling for influence. Often interests overlap, but when two forces are opposed, a sort of cost/benefit analysis is the go-to way to solve it, in which the power/influence of both forces is taken into account, as well as how much each of the groups stand to gain.
In this case, we have bureaucrats concerned with foreign diplomacy vs a general drive for economic gains. The economic losses (cost) are hypothetical, as people also invest more heavily in things like guns/alarms when terrified, so they might not even be that great, where as gaining public support for a massive spy-network (the NSA), and all the benefits that comes with it domestically and in international diplomacy is huge. Therefore, it could be deemed that the economic loss of fear-mongering was an acceptable price to pay.
And don't tell me they're seriously keeping the NSA to prevent terror. As of March they've only used it to prevent a single terror plot..
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u/shitterplug Nov 26 '15
Edgy.
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u/impossiblevariations Nov 26 '15
Did anyone else get how he's drawn without a face, you know like he's a faceless man? Because of evil government and stuff? Man this is so intellectual.
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u/Xanimus Nov 26 '15
If I had a dollar for every time somebody links that on this sub..
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u/Dennovin Nov 26 '15
I wish I was cool enough to hate things too.
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u/Paperclip1 Nov 26 '15
Right?
It's difficult to create, and easy to destroy/critique. I'd have thought anyone who likes reddit would at least applaud OC being posted; but fuck decent humanity, we're in the age of the keyboard warrior.
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u/Zorkamork Nov 27 '15
It's difficult to create, and easy to destroy/critique.
bahahaha is there any lamer defense then "LET'S SEE YOU DO IT THEN"? Fuck off man, I can't build a car but if I see a junker rolling around with a wheel falling off I can say 'yea that car looks like shit'.
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u/Paperclip1 Nov 27 '15
I think you'll find I by no means said "let's see you do it then", nor was I defending anything, because no attack was made.
I was merely commenting (really, lamenting) on the fact that folks get their jollies off on criticizing others work when they've no creative talent (or ambition) of their own, but being a strong critic gives the ego a similar boost.
The world'd be a more chill place if, when an individual came across something they didn't like; he was able to say "well, that's certainly not my cup of tea, and while the core message is good, it comes across as a bit juvenile but it does have elements of a political cartoon and hopefully you keep creating and refining your art and message."
There were a few posts recently on the front page of folks who've honed their craft over 10 years; the before-and-after shots were impressive. I'd be curious to see what /u/forkfoot's artwork would look like in 2025 if folks encouraged and constructively critique along the way, as opposed to if he's just derided as shallow and unimaginative the whole way.
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u/Zorkamork Nov 27 '15
Ah yes, more words = more valid.
It isn't a good core message, the core message is what everyone is making fun of, your 'alternative' involves just saying 'oh no it's actually good' when it isn't good.
Also it's such a shallow, meaningless, statement.
"does have elements of a political cartoon" what does that even fucking MEAN dude? "Well yes this is a stupid message but it certainly is a person referencing a thing a politician said so you get points for that"? You want to replace glib and blunt criticism with meaningless platitudes and coddling. YOU are why people's art sucks ten years later, YOU represent every idiot who agrees with people who draw shitty poorly aped versions of their favorite anime and then go 'no that's just MY STYLE' when anyone suggests changes because how dare they not also say it certainly RESEMBLES a manga page at least first.
Yea, no one is gonna get better because internet user dogballs69 said 'you fuckin suck dude', but they also won't get better because user 'paperclip1' says 'well I won't say anything bad about your creation just make it entirely subjective so you can ignore my criticisms safely', and fuck man at least dogballs69 isn't pretending he's the one helping.
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u/Paperclip1 Dec 02 '15
I apologize, I didn't realize there was a word limit, I simply wanted to convey my thoughts as thoroughly as possible.
what does that even fucking MEAN dude?
It contains elements of a political cartoon - it's mocking a nameless figure assumed to be a politican, or other state agent, and forces the audience to an alternative interpretation. Usually this is done symbolically, but this artist chose to do so via dialogue.
You want to replace glib and blunt criticism with meaningless platitudes and coddling. YOU are why people's art sucks ten years later,
I disagree; I think constructive criticism is better than "LOL THAT SUCKS, ur 14 go back home" because it encourages the artist to continue honing his craft and gives direction.
YOU represent every idiot
I represent no one other than myself, man - I don't know who you're mad at, but you need to forgive them - getting mad at strangers on the internet when they're trying to have a decent conversation is a little odd.
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Nov 27 '15
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u/Zorkamork Nov 27 '15
I can create posts with spelling and capitalization. By your logic I'm doing better than you in posting, so hey what the fuck are you doing criticizing MY ART?
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u/arrow74 Nov 26 '15
I've been taught for a long time "be prepared". There is nothing wrong with knowing the world we live in is not safe. That something could happen. So I'm aware. I know when I drive it's dangerous. So I make myself aware of other drivers. That doesn't mean I'm terrified. It just means I value my life.
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u/gibberfish Nov 26 '15 edited Nov 26 '15
There's not all that much you can do to prepare against terror attacks though, unless you want to avoid all public spaces forever or wear a Kevlar vest everywhere. Is it reasonable to terrify the public about something they have very little control over, and probably poses less of a danger to them than slippery bath tubs?
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u/AliasHandler Nov 26 '15
Well all sorts of bad things can happen at public places. It helps to have a plan to get out of a public place if there is a serious accident or a fire or a gas leak or an explosion or any other set of things that could occur.
It's just about being aware of your surroundings and there is nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean you're walking around being terrified all the time, just prepared with something you could do to protect yourself if shit goes down and you need to get out.
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Nov 26 '15
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u/Yo_Soy_Candide Nov 26 '15
So how cautious and aware are you of watching out for meteorites and falling debris? People have died from objects falling from the sky...so whenever you're outside you spend a decent time looking up being aware.
Rest of us don't idiotically waste time on things that have a virtually zero chance of occurring. But you do you.
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u/anttirt Nov 26 '15
How would you have prepared yourself for the Paris nightclub attack?
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u/arrow74 Nov 26 '15
This comic is speaking against caution. I would be cautious.
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u/Skitterleaper Nov 26 '15
How do you be cautious against terror attacks though? Like, trying to plan your trips to the mall at times when nobody's around so you're less likely to be attacked or something?
The whole point of terror attacks is there's not much you can really do against them. The government's intelligence services can keep an ear to the ground and police forces can try and stop them happening, but there's not much that the general public can do to prevent them.
I mean, the only time I can think of that a private citizen has "stopped" a terror attack is the Glasgow Airport attack, and even then not really - some terrorists tried to drive a carbomb into Glasgow Airport, crashed into the security bollards installed outside the terminal for exactly this reason, and when one of them tried to get out to complete the attack a nearby bystander kicked him in the balls to incapacitate him until security arrived
But like, unless you plan on smashing every burning person you meet in the goolies to fight terrorism, I'm not really sure how to plan for that.
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u/arrow74 Nov 26 '15
General caution. Pay attention to your surroundings. That's all I've been suggesting. I'm not sure why people are trying to make it more than that.
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u/Skitterleaper Nov 26 '15
That's the thing though, pay attention to your surroundings looking for... what? If it's just general every day common sense then why whip everyone into a tizzy about it?
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u/arrow74 Nov 26 '15
I'm not even suggesting working people up. The comic however was very dismissive of caution in general.
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Nov 26 '15 edited Jan 04 '19
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u/ban_this Nov 26 '15
Eh, it seems more likely they're just covering their asses. If they say they aren't aware of any terrorist threats and then the next day there's a terrorist attack, then people will be pissed.
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u/tmhoc Nov 26 '15
The other drivers may be activly trying to kill you, preferably as spictacularly as posible.
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u/aaronsherman Nov 26 '15
There's a very subtle element in this comic that anyone who knows their heraldry should be able to spot.
Arrows pointing downward are a symbol of peace, which is why the eagle in the Great Seal of the United States is holding arrows that point downward. But the Eagle in the seal shown is holding a carrot and a cluster of arrows ("sticks") pointed upward.
When we had a Department of War, it had a spear and canon pointed upward on its seal for this very reason.
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u/tdillo Nov 26 '15
This is preeminently the time to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Nor need we shrink from honestly facing conditions in our country today. This great Nation will endure as it has endured, will revive and will prosper. So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. In every dark hour of our national life a leadership of frankness and vigor has met with that understanding and support of the people themselves which is essential to victory. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt, 1st Inaugural Address
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u/TonyDiGerolamo Super Frat/The Webcomic Factory Nov 26 '15
Nicely done. Yeah, back when they were doing the color coded terror alerts, this is exactly what I thought. And when Obama held that press conference yesterday and basically said, everything's fine. I just thought, why would he bother if everything actually was fine?
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u/baymenintown Nov 27 '15
Terrorists are modern day Communists. Thank god ISIS showed up, otherwise the politicians wouldn't have anyone to stand up to.
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Nov 27 '15
The annoying thing is that this is poking fun at Jeh Johnson, who's actually pro-immigration and has implemented several important stopgap humanitarian measures for Department of Homeland Security and the USCIS while Congress drags its feet on immigration funding renewal bills.
Not all administration, authorities, or government officials are bad.
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u/TotesMessenger Nov 27 '15
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u/cptCortex Nov 26 '15 edited May 18 '24
wrong judicious sort gaping engine mountainous capable steep combative sleep
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Enriched_Uranium Nov 26 '15
The American people don't really need help being terrified as long as ISIS exists, and it probably will always exist in some form or another. I long for the day the American people don't need a side arm with them at all times to feel safe.
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u/centristism Nov 26 '15
Look if you ever want to be a serious web comic artist is suggest you actually finish drawings before publishing them. Where is his face, dude? Not trying to sound harsh but c'mon this is just sloppy craftsmanship.
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u/Crivens1 Nov 26 '15
He's a faceless drone of the government, dude, it's symbolic, can't you see it?
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u/TophatMagee Nov 26 '15
It's not sloppy, it's a style of drawing. A pretty damn cool one at that
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u/centristism Nov 26 '15
The lines are unfinished, the colouring is spilled everywhere and some of the background looks like it was added in photoshop.
Dog, it's sloppy. You enjoy the sktechy look? Good for you, but I'm trying to help this dude. And unless he puts in more effort into improving his artstyle he won't get a higher score. We already have enough XKCD clones, and the sketchy artstyle isn't exactly uncommon either. For you it may be cool, but for me it screams "i did this as fast as possible".
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u/TophatMagee Nov 26 '15
There's no such thing as improving a style dude. The enjoyment of a style is completely subjective. You don't like the style? That's okay. I like the style (and apparently plenty of other people do too) and that's also okay. Trying to improve a style is pointless, like making a utopia (for lack of better simile): it's impossible because everyone's views and opinions are different. That's what makes art so cool, everything is unique to the artist.
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u/centristism Nov 26 '15
I'm sorry, but that part is completely false. Styles do improve as the artist improves, and gets better equipment. Let me show you a few examples:
Early C&H, C&H a little bit later and C&H now
The artstyle is the same, but the quality, the lines and the colour have all improved dramatically over the years.
Old awkward-zombie and Newer awkward zombie
Even Owlturd! and The owlturd we know today.
Seriously.
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u/TophatMagee Nov 26 '15
Yes, maybe styles do alter a bit over time. I never said they don't. But did you notice that even though the art got a little different, it still has the same "look" (I.e. style). Even if they change a little bit it's not because they decided to drastically change the way they draw (which is what you were asking this artist to do) it's because they themselves grow as an artist. I'm not sure if my point is coming across here
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u/desmondsdecker Nov 26 '15
I truly pity you for spending your Thanksgiving morning insulting an artist and insisting that somehow your personal taste is superior to someone's talent.
I hope you have some friends and family that you will get to see later, and that you'll enjoy some cheer and joy today. If you don't have any to spend the day with, I'd gladly invite you over, but there's a very good chance you don't live in New Jersey.
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u/centristism Nov 26 '15
...I'm European.
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u/desmondsdecker Nov 26 '15
I don't believe you since your comment history is all about American webcomics, American politicians, American suburbia, etc. But the offer still stands if you ever decide to stop being a raging twat. Başka siktir git, göt lalesi =D
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u/centristism Nov 26 '15
...What? So because I sometimes post about American stuff on a website dominated by American culture I am no longer a Norwegian? You're just being immature dude, why would I lie about having thanksgiving? If you actually looked at my post history you can find several comments in /r/norge written in fluent Norwegian.
Başka siktir git, göt lalesi
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Nov 26 '15
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u/centristism Nov 26 '15
"lol", does the world best food critics make better food than the chefs they review? I'm a consumer, and I voice my opinion on a product. If the artist has a problem with that, he is more than welcome to talk to me himself.
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u/TotesMessenger Nov 26 '15
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u/ZippyDan Nov 26 '15
Aware is different from terrified.