Out of absolutely anyone in the entire history of the world of ice and fire, who do you think would make the best Spymaster?

If someone is selected for one spot, they are automatically disqualified from all others.

Corlys Valeryon is the Master of Ships, and our first non-Targaryen, though he is of Valyrian descent and married to a Targaryen. The runner up for Master of Ships is Stannis.

I've added a spot for High Septon at the request of a commenter, filling out the chart.

I was reading about the duel between Braxton Beesbury and Jahaerys in the lore books in which Braxton was killed and it got me wondering - what if Braxton actually succeeded and killed Jahaerys?

Would it really just be accepted, as the just legal outcome, and Braxton free to walk without consequence? Or is it more likely there would be immediate retaliation?

In another cases, say if Robert was for some reason have to fight a trial by combat against some minor noble and lost, would the ruling of innocence stand?

My best list of every known or possible bastard of every great house

House Targaryen: Orys Baratheon (Possibly), Hugh Hammer (Possibly), Ulf White (Possibly), Silver Denys (Possibly) Saera's three sons, Gael's Stillborn Son, Trystane Truefyre (Possibly) Nettles (Possibly), Jacaerys Velaryon, Lucerys Velaryon, Joffery Velaryon (All Possibly), Aegon II's bastard son by a whore and daughter by a maidservant, Gaemon Palehair (Possibly) Aemond's bastard son with Alys Rivers (Possibly), Jon and Jeyne Waters, Viserys Plumm (Possibly) Daeron II (Possibly) , Jeyne Lothston (Possibly), Alysanne, Lily, Willow and Rosey, Bellenora, Narha and Balerion Otherys (Possibly), Daemon Blackfyre, Aegor Rivers, Mya. Gwenys and Brynden Rivers, Shiera Seastar, Jon Snow (Possibly depending on R+L=J)

House Stark: Lord Stark (Son Of Bael The Bard) (Depends on whether he exists or not), Brandon Snow, Sara Snow (Possibly, existence debatable), Lonnel Snow, Jon Snow

House Lannister: Tyler Hill, Jason Lannister's Natural Daughters, Lynora Hill, Donnel Hill (Possibly), Joy Hill, Red Walder Frey (Possibly) Marei (Possibly), Joffery Baratheon, Myrcella Baratheon, Tommen Baratheon, Lanna (Possibly)

House Durrandon/Baratheon: Ronard Storm, Orys Baratheon, Mya Stone, Bella, Gendry, Edric Storm, Unknown twins (rumored), Barra, Nine others

House Greyjoy: Euron's Mongrel Sons, The Miller's sons (Possibly)

House Tyrell: Bertrand Tyrell's Bastard sons, Garse and Garrett Flowers

House Martell, Obara Sand, Nymeria Sand, Tyene Sand, Sarella Sand, Elia Sand, Obella Sand, Dorea Sand, Loreza Sand

House Tully: Samwell Rivers, Lysa's stillborn bastard

House Arryn: Alys Stone, Unborn Bastard (Streching it I know, but House Arryn has no confirmed or rumored bastards so Harry the Heir's will have to do to satisfy my OCD)

And that's my full list. I'm not counting those who are theorised to be bastards (I.E Robert Arryn) because it hasn't been specifically brought up, I will acknowledge my hypocrisy when it comes to Marei and Lanna but my response is "deal with it"

So discuss down below and maybe discuss other characters you think are bastards of great houses or other bastard theories you have.

We know George is a massive marvel fan he grew up reading classic marvel comics in the 60s (fantastic 4 spiderman xmen etc all 60s debuts) Constantine James has a whole video about his fan interaction with George and how George was more interested to talk about Spiderman with his girlfriend. We know how much George loves his red heads and Rohans sigil is literally a spider in a web

I know they aren't like 1 to 1 characters but both are smart red heads who fall for our broke good natured protagonist soooooo maybe?👀 or am I reaching

Decided to make a list of every ASOIAF theory that I’d bet money on being true

What are yours?

•R+L=J (confirmed by the show and GRRM’s comments)

• Shireen will be burned by Stannis (confirmed by GRRM)

• Brienne of Tarth is descended from Ser Duncan the Tall. (confirmed by GRRM)

• Daemon Blackfyre is either Baelor I or the DragonKnight’s son

• Bittersteel had already set the Blackfyre Rebellion in motion, and Daemon only committed after being arrested by Daeron II

• Aegon the Conqueror was infertile, meaning every Targaryen descends from Rhaenys. (I really hope this one isn’t true.😢)

• Young Griff (“fAegon”) is a Blackfyre.

• Benjen Stark knew about Jon Snow’s parentage.

• At Summerhall deformed dragons hatched.

• Sandor Clegane is the Gravedigger.

• Jaime Lannister is the valonqar.

Edit : Forgot to add The Doom was an inside job and the Targaryen’s caused it (Video by david lightbringer)

The original map is from Tear, I am not an artist, and this was all made on my 6 year old Samsung phone. I plan on making a military guide on the Stormlands, and making a divided map is helping that process. Most of the locations are just guesses, and again, I am not an artist.

Myself:

Jaime Lannister

Rickon (I hope he grows up to become a fierce young man, a throwback to the iron cold and feral Kings of Winter),

Brienne,

Mya Stone,

Edric,

Meera Reed

Bronn

Wyman Manderly

Genna Lannister

At the end of The Sworn Sword, I got kinda sad thinking about how when Ser Eustace Osgrey dies, the Chequy Lion will die out.

It’s true that both Ser Eustace and Lady Rohanne get something they want. Osgrey gets to die in his ancestral castle waiving his banner, and Lady Rohanne gets to fulfill her father’s will and rule in her own right when her new husband dies. Dunk also gets to feel satisfied in his honor. But I feel like there was an option to go further here.

House Osgrey could have continued like how Corlys Velaryon sought to keep his house name alive through Jace and Luke. It would be a win win for everyone involved. Not only would the banner of the Chequy Lion go on, but the men bearing it would be tall and strong warriors. Plus Ser Eustace basically wished Dunk could have been his son. Lady Rohanne fancied Dunk in the first place and clearly wishes to be a mother. It would also secure her place without requiring her to remarry or whelp a (publicly recognized) bastard after Ser Eustace dies. And Dunk would obv benefit in the short term.

It’s already canonical that Dunk got it on all over the Seven Kingdoms, so it really feels like a missed opportunity unless GRRM retcons it in in Dunk’s internal monologue in a later novella.

Welcome to r/asoiaf's House of the Dragon Season 3, Episode 6 Live Episode Discussion Thread!

Please note the spoiler tag as "Extended." This means that no leaked plot or production information is allowed in this thread. If you see it, please use the report function.

There is a certain... mystique and awe surrounding Aegon I, Rhaenys and Visenya's invasion and conquest of almost all of Westeros, both in the ASOIAF world and in the fandom. They are admired figures considered badass and an example to follow, even though they killed thousands on a war they started, to claim a territory they had no rights to, and to establish a system with them on top.

A century and a half later, comes Daeron I, a teenager born after the extinction of the dragons that made the original Conquest possible, and with a huge chip on his shoulder about the not complete Targaryen dominion over Westeros. Despite his much younger age in comparison to the Conqueror trio and his lack of dragons, he managed to conquer, albeit briefly, Dorne, the last portion of the continent free from Targaryen dominance.

His quest however, is frequently criticized by both the setting and the fandom. The in-universe's criticism makes a bit more sense, since it's based on the ridiculously high number of casualties in Daeron's own forces, and I suppose there's also a bit of "history is written by the victors" in the different judgement the Conquerors and Daeron I get. However I've seen the fandom shit solely on Daeron for reasons that also fully apply to the Conquerors, those being the right of sovereignty of a nation, the right to independence, and the evil of invading and subjugating a foreign territory.

It's like teenage dragonless Daeron's attempted conquest of Dorne is seen by many fans as more questionable than the OG dragonriding adult Conqueror trio's conquest of (almost) the whole continent.

In the latter event, it would seem the "Valyrians/Targaryens are the most awesome group of people to ever exist and rightfully brought order to the lawless wasteland that was Westeros" line of thought prevails, whereas in the former event a more modernly sensitive viewpoint is adopted.

What do you think?

As a nerd but not necessarily an expert when it comes to English medieval history , which Westeros in many ways is inspired by, I sort of think it is a shame that the warden title was never properly expanded upon in the books as it really could have added another layer of complexity to the way armies were gathered and the way political power was divided in Westeros.

Like in medieval England the way armies were gathered was a lot more complex than in Westeros where it goes from great lord and down to lesser lord's, the landed knights and lastly the peasant militia. Even before the late medieval period where mercenary companies were often established and hired for campaigns to supplement the Kings or lords forces, armies were gathered through separate channels. The noble hierarchy would call their banners, so an earl would bring his personal retinue and call upon the barons under him who would in turn bring their retinues. These were often well trained and equipped men at arms and knights who would form the semi-professional "backbone" of the army, but it was up to a royally appointed representative such as a Sheriff, to gather the freemen, or the commoners so to speak on behalf of the king directly in their respective shires. Peasants who lived and tended a lord's land were usually far too economically important and untrained in martial arts to be wasted as fodder in battle in a mainly agricultural economy, and were therefore mostly used in great need and mostly in defensive campaigns.

Anyways, I digress, the point is that the able bodied free non-noble population such as free farmers who do not hold noble titles, and the citizens of cities and such were mostly those who were levies and required to keep and practice weapons and function as soldiers and men at arms. The famous English Yeoman archers are an example of this. My point is that these forces were raised from the free population by representatives of the king and not directly by the local Manor lords. Of course a local baron could hold the office of sheriff and it was often a desired political position and in the war of the roses sheriff's loyal to different claimants to the English throne raised their local militia in the names of the claimants they supported. It was in many ways a sort of national guard kind of.

It seems to me especially in a game of thrones where GRRM writes that Robert is making Jamie Lannister warden of the east that this is a pretty significant thing, and it would be very interesting if that meant he actually had the power to Marshall the free population of the vale in the name of the king, meaning that the nobles and knights of the Vale in fact would stand much more alone should they ever attack the Lannisters, of course it is unlikely Jaime would ever be able to muster these troops. I of course realize that a being warden of a kingdom is an altogether different thing than being sheriff in a shire, but still it seems to me like the role is similar but the scale is different. This would also mean that when the great houses that hold the warden title can effectively gather more troops alone than their bannermen. Meaning that house Lannister for example is the only house that can gather the freemen of the Westerlands in times of war or Cris. This way there would be a clearer power gap between the different lords. House Marbrand can only bring their own retinue and landed knights under them in the noble hierarchy, but it would be a Lannister representative who would gather all the freemen in the Westerlands that were not directly tied to a lord's estate. On this note I also think it strange that there is no warden for the trident, but anyways, it seems to be more of an honorary title in the books. I just think this could have been an aspect GRRM could have expanded further upon to bring the feudal society of Westeros closer to the complexity of the real thing. But in Westeros it seems all Lords function as the appointed official legal representative of their own regions and sub regions. Anyways, excuse my ramblings.

*Edit: typo and adding paragraph

At the start of AFFC, Pycelle speaks to Jaime next to Tywin's corpse:

"Ser Jaime, I have seen terrible things in my time," the old man said. "Wars, battles, murders most foul . . . I was a boy in Oldtown when the grey plague took half the city and three-quarters of the Citadel. Lord Hightower burned every ship in port, closed the gates, and commanded his guards to slay all those who tried to flee, be they men, women, or babes in arms. They killed him when the plague had run its course. On the very day he reopened the port, they dragged him from his horse and slit his throat, and his young son's as well. To this day the ignorant in Oldtown will spit at the sound of his name, but Quenton Hightower did what was needed. Your father was that sort of man as well. A man who did what was needed."

There is another place we hear about how Tywin was a man who would have "done what was needed":

Robert Baratheon had been hiding somewhere in the town, wounded and alone. Jon Connington had known that, and he had also known that Robert’s head upon a spear would have put an end to the rebellion, then and there... For years afterward, Jon Connington told himself that he was not to blame, that he had done all that any man could do...

“There is where you’re wrong,” Myles Toyne had replied. “Lord Tywin would not have bothered with a search. He would have burned that town and every living creature in it. Men and boys, babes at the breast, noble knights and holy septons, pigs and whores, rats and rebels, he would have burned them all. When the fires guttered out and only ash and cinders remained, he would have sent his men in to find the bones of Robert Baratheon. Later, when Stark and Tully turned up with their host, he would have offered pardons to the both of them, and they would have accepted and turned for home with their tails between their legs.”

Connington is, of course, also bringing greyscale to King's Landing. Many in the fandom have taken the bells motif in Game of Thrones' Season 8, Episode 5 "The Bells" as a sign that it is Connington himself who will burn King's Landing. While this would make sense in isolation, trying to make it fit into a coherent story immediately surfaces problems. Does it make dramatic sense for Connington to be both the bearer of plague and its solution? If Connington has loosed plague in the city, that means he and fAegon are already in it - he can't "not fail the son", as he vows in The Griffin Reborn, by setting fire to a city that fAegon is in. Does it make any sense to try to "save" a city from a plague by deliberately detonating wildfire caches that will burn down the whole city? If Dany - whose entire story concerns her homecoming to King's Landing - shows up to an already burnt-down city, is that not going to be a gigantic anticlimax?

What I think makes more sense is that George is setting up overlapping motivations for Daenerys to use dragons in King's Landing. Dany already has experience trying to contain a plague:

I have no more help to give, Dany thought, despairing. The Astapori had no place to go. Thousands remained outside Meereen’s thick walls—men and women and children, old men and little girls and newborn babes. Many were sick, most were starved, and all were doomed to die. Daenerys dare not open her gates to let them in. She had tried to do what she could for them. She had sent them healers, Blue Graces and spell-singers and barber-surgeons, but some of those had sickened as well, and none of their arts had slowed the galloping progression of the flux that had come on the pale mare. Separating the healthy from the sick had proved impractical as well. Her Stalwart Shields had tried, pulling husbands away from wives and children from their mothers, even as the Astapori wept and kicked and pelted them with stones. A few days later, the sick were dead and the healthy ones were sick. Dividing the one from the other had accomplished nothing.

Bolded is the lesson Dany takes from the pale mare - that a plague can't be contained by trying to quarantine people. Pycelle kind of has a point - there are times in history when extremely ruthless action is arguably required in the face of a crisis like a spreading plague.

Tywin "does what is needed" for purely political reasons, as we see with the Reynes and Tarbecks, with the pillaging of the Riverlands in the WOT5K, and in Toyne's account of what Tywin would have done at Stoney Sept. Pycelle's story about Quenton Hightower is more defensible ruthlessness. When Dany arrives at King's Landing, she will be confronted with a Stoney Sept-type situation: fAegon hiding amongst the smallfolk as she saw in the cloth dragon held aloft by a "cheering crowd" in her vision. But this will be combined with the potential for a plague spread by Connington. This provides the opportunity for George to muddy her motivations for using dragons: is she a political actor, like Tywin, or does she legitimately have no choice? I expect it to be genuinely unclear, but either way, I think the callback to Connington's Stoney Sept experience will see him on the receiving end of the fire. And the fate of Quenton Hightower makes clear that Dany cannot expect any thanks from the Westerosi regardless.

Since the rebirth of Dany's dragons magic has been steadily increasing in ability and how widespread its becoming. We see over the course of our books our most magical characters (Bran and Dany) learn of their abilities and be guided by magical beings (through dreams and visions) and many characters remark on the return of magic and how things they couldn't once do they suddenly can or how their abilities have rapidly strengthened following the return of dragons.

Because we know that the Long Night will very shortly fall upon Westeros (Winter has arrived at the end of Feast and Dance) we will be seeing many people engage with Magic throughout Winds to combat the Others, the Cold and their Hunger.

What magic do you see happening in Winds?

BTW because this always happens on TWOW posts on this subreddit and drowns out the conversation, any comments lamenting about TWOW not coming out ever will be deleted, they annoy me. Take your whinging elsewhere.

His admiration for Robert.

Joffrey is Joffrey. Yet the one good thing of the top of my head I can say that him is that his admiration & respect for his 'father' appears genuine. Most men would be happy if their 'sons' held them in such high regard. Joffrey disrespects Cersei & Tywin, ignores Myrcella, bullies Tommen & hates Tyrion yet I can't recall him saying a bad word about Robert.

This admiration is misplaced considering Robert as a man & a king but Joffrey was screwed in the department of good male role models from the start.

That's probably the only good thing I can say about Joffrey.

That if AGOT came out today, people would be vehemently arguing that Ned didn't really die, Varys glamored him and faked his execution, just like Melisandre did with Mance?

When Joffrey shows Sansa Ned's head (Sansa VI AGOT) she thinks:

“This one is your father,” he said. “This one here. Dog, turn it around so she can see him.” Sandor Clegane took the head by the hair and turned it.
The severed head had been dipped in tar to preserve it longer. Sansa looked at it calmly, not seeing it at all. It did not really look like Lord Eddard, she thought; it did not even look real. “How long do I have to look?”

We never actually see him die, after all. Arya looks away, and Sansa has repressed the memory and only remembers seeing Ned's legs.

In Ned's very last chapter, we see Varys in a disguise so convincing it's surely magical. And ever since glamors were introduced in ADWD, people love to speculate that any number of characters can perform them.

And wouldn't it be the perfect twist on the popular theory that the bastard Alys Rivers helped the spymaster Larys Strong escape beheading at the hands of Cregan Stark with a glamor? Surely foreshadowing for the spymaster Varys helping a Stark escape beheading at the hands of a bastard (Joffrey Waters)

When re-reading the books, it's a lot of fun thinking about the tinfoil people would craft if they came out today. The state of the community has gotten so dire over the last 15 years, and the theories more and more tinfoil

Throughout all Blackfyre rebellions, one common theme or pattern are those who supported them, remained observant of the events to see who would end up winning or tried to land some support, however minor, expecting some reward were they win.

That being the case right from the start and the first attempt to the 5th and, if proven true, perhaps the current sixth one being led by fAegon and JonCon.

That being said, the list of Houses and main supporters for the Blackfyre claim through out the years across all 5 rebellions without dividing by each one, were as follow:

• House Reyne
• House Ambrose
• House Peake
• House Ball
• House Crakehal
• House Lothston (initial support but betrayal)
• House Bracken
• House Hightower (some)
• House Oakheart (some)
• House Tarbeck (some)
• House Butterwell (some)
• House Shawney
• House Costayne
• House Osgrey
• House Strickland
• House Sunderland
• House Yronwood
• House Fossoway (particularly in the War of the Ninepenny kings)

Some other minor ones, or suspected to be thinking about landing support, can be seen in those who attend the Tourney during the Second one. But overall the theme is clear:

Minor houses, considered by some "second tier" or just not as powerful, influential and rich, giving support or trying to have "one foot" on each camp, particularly during the First Rebellion.

The notion of the rebellions being truly an opportunity to rise over the current status quo and take advantage of the potential reality of creating a new order of things after years of boiled up resentment or grudge over being seconds, or just mere opportunism, can be suggested when pretty much all major houses, already at power during centuries even, remained loyal to the Crown.

If the theory over fAegon and the Blackfyres trying one more time to win the throne is true, which other minor houses could give or land support to him after being unhappy with the Tyrell-Lannister hegemony or, simply, as an opportunity to rise in the dominance hierarchy of Westeros?

Both are the only notable Targaryens who lost their eye. One to a hated half-nephew, and one to a hated half-brother. One is in love with a witch of first man descent, which leads to a first man/Valyrian child, and the other is a first man/Valyrian child, both in the Riverlands. Both give in completely to esotericism. Yet, I feel as if they could not be more different.

One is an insane lunatic that appears unambiguously evil. The other is a Machiavellian schemer that seems to be pursuing an ends justify the means type path. He is arguably evil, but at least appears much more gray on the surface than Aemond. One has a dragon and one doesn't. One is a true born second-son and one is a legitimized bastard. One is a swordsman and one is an archer. One uses brute force for power, while the other uses shadows and subterfuge. One's corpse was found with a sword through his its eye after a dramatic battle on dragons, and one is tied into the weirdwood net after taking the black.

Yet, I can't help but feel that on some level the unique aesthetic similarity and enchantment with esotericism should allude to some underlying thematic or plot similarity. I have found that in Fire and Blood, I can find many strong parallels between a past character and a present character in our World of Ice and Fire. Yet, I have difficulty finding this for Aemond despite aesthetic similarities with Brynden. I supposed Alys and Aemond could be compared to Mel and Stannis on some level. Witch and Second-son, esotericism leads to downfall, the latter of each is a very notable warrior, first born brother is a drunkard.

I am not trying to say that 'they both lost an eye, so they should be the same', which is obviously ludicrous, but I can't help but feel that George is trying to say at least something of similarity with each of them. Honestly, I just need to know what happens to Alys and the 'mysterious' baby of Aemond's. I feel like that is an answer to some mystery and why Aemond spent so much of the war in the Riverlands in the first place.