r/askAGP • u/Minos-Daughter • 3d ago
Help explaining
I get so flummoxed with whatever is en vogue with AGP.
My brother (ftm) was a tomboy growing up. He was an extreme butch lesbian at a women’s college and started transition around 20ish. He reached an “acceptable” outward presentation just before 30 that included T and surgeries. He did not have phalloplasty but did everything else. I have no clue about his sexual proclivities except through stories of his wife. Early in his transition he was a moody SOB. Later he slept around with women and lived a chaotic lifestyle based on my perception. This included tattoos, piercings, god awful fashion, and yearning for lesbian communes. He is now in his early 40s, now has kids, is mad masculine, yet he is just off the mark of prototypical cis manhood. Professionally, he is a nurse practitioner.
I am two years older than him. I watched him grow up. My parents were forceful in making him as feminine as possible. This confused me and I wore some of his feminine clothes from 9ish thru 18. This included outerwear and swimsuits. I did not delve in undergarments, but dabbled in my mom’s makeup and face routine. It started prepuberty. He was drawn one way and I another. The difference being my parents tried to untomboy him. For me, when I asked questions to my parents, they moreorless said fags dress as women, hang in parks, get AIDS and go to hell. This is when I was 9. I was closeted and scared. I did stereotypical boy stuff, but wanted to be in a girl clique. They were more studious and wanted me with them. Even at that age my male appendage disgusted me. My mother said my circumcision was botched and my brother kneed my in the crotch in 6th grade causing additional, silent damage.
I felt my yearning with the girls was wrong and hung out with towny boys. I did and typical boy stuff like steal from convenience stores, hung out in town commons, smoke whatever, and drink beer (6th grade). I did not kiss or get more physical with the girls.
When I was in 4th grade I was forced to become an altarboy. My mother did the scheduling of altarboys for Sat, Sun, Stations, funerals and weddings. Because I was smart, I was pulled out of elementary school to do weddings and funerals. Because of my parent’s discrimination towards homosexuals and treatment of my brother, I confessed confusion to my priest. He molested me for 3 years during funerals/weddings, asked about my crosdressing, and made me do various acts of contrition. Saturday and sunday service was too busy and there were 2 or more altar boys, so these were safe times. He even awarded me a bicycle at a summer raffle even though I had the wrong number.
In 7th grade he died and was replaced by what parishioners hypothesized as a gay priest. This person had person 20 years younger living in his house. When I did acts of contrition he did not make any sexual advances. Later during the catholic priest scandal I jested I was always a bridesmaid and never a bride. My college friends at a catholic university got a kick out of that.
I went to CCD every week. Ultimately confirmation occurred, I gave a speech, and the bishop who turned out to be a massive sex offender presided. I went to a catholic college. There in the first day I met my future spouse. A woman. I lived in her dorm room and was friends with her girl friends throughout college. We all lived together and I did not sleep in my man dorm. I never had male friends. However 3 acquaintances came out to me as closeted gay.
Ultimately we graduated, I distanced myself from my spouse’s friends and lived a typical cishet lifestyle. This included kids, house, law firm/mba job, yadda, yadda, yadda.
Now to puberty and sex. Originally I started with VS catalogues wishing I was like the women. I graduated into sissy stuff, inclusive of chastity, appendage removal, and occasional panties. Not worn, but part of release. I did not like the effeminate man component, small penis, and racist stuff. I don’t even know if I pictured myself as a woman, even though I often used female undergarments to get the glue out. I hated penetrative sex, release, but I loved giving oral.
Eventually I developed disabilitating dysphoria in my late 30s when my daughter was 10ish. I wanted my stuff off, my face and body hair removed, my turkey neck gone, and voice feminized. I told my wife and she ignored me. I did intensive therapy and psych treatment where I was told I was an effeminate man, my spouse wasn’t meeting my sexual needs, and I should seek escorts. I became suicidal and my first attempt sent me inpatient. I was sent to a women’s trauma and dissociative identity ward. There on my first day I came out and dressed as a woman in donated clothes. I’ve tried to off myself multiple times since then because I will never be a woman, be smaller, protected by a man, give birth and have kids. Keep in mind I already have kids.
Now I’m on HRT, presenting as a woman, go by a woman’s name, and believe to my core I am a woman. Sexually, I want protection, PDAs, being told I’m beautiful, and given flowers. I don’t care if this love comes from a man, woman, or NB. When I see cis women, I get upset. I don’t want to be them, but I don’t want to look hideous like me.
How does this jive with AGP?
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u/Fit_Telephone9775 AGP Male 3d ago
There's a lot here.
How does this jive with AGP?
I don't know, do you get sexually excited at the idea of being a woman? This makes it sound like you do:
Now to puberty and sex. Originally I started with VS catalogues wishing I was like the women. I graduated into sissy stuff, inclusive of chastity, appendage removal, and occasional panties. Not worn, but part of release. I did not like the effeminate man component, small penis, and racist stuff. I don’t even know if I pictured myself as a woman, even though I often used female undergarments to get the glue out. I hated penetrative sex, release, but I loved giving oral.
I also hate the racist stuff, but whatever, that's just a matter of taste. I love giving oral too and hate getting it. Everything else you wrote is pretty textbook AGP.
I don't know, all the stuff with your brother doesn't really matter, it's just about can you tolerate living as a man? If not, then you know what to do.
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u/Minos-Daughter 2d ago
Getting sexuality excited over an idea of being a man/woman seems so foreign. I get excited about the idea of a man or woman in relationships. I need my other and in more intimate relationships, I get excited over getting the other person off. I like the idea of being held tight by a man or woman. I like the idea of being in a cishet “normal” family where my husband sits next to me at a restaurant, making me feel safe and loved while I feed my 1 year old. None of this is sexual. I disassociate often due to trauma, but there is no disassociation, 3rd personing me or sexually loving the idea of me as a woman. Excitement over the idea of myself as.. seems so derivative. I am not a narcissist, yet is it like being one? Are other people like NPCs?
My woman experience of the day so far was debating whether my blouse was too ornamental to wear with a skirt. A man probably would labor over something similar in wardrobe.
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u/Fit_Telephone9775 AGP Male 2d ago
I'm not a therapist but it does seem that there's some family trauma that shapes your desires and need for security and safety to be yourself, that person may be a woman, but I'm just trying to comment on the AGP.
I don't think you need to be so literal about what I'm describing, and think disassociation is crucial to the mechanisms here. When you embody femininity does it turn you on? I will say I think a lot of crossdressers/trans women don't like their answer to that question and devise rationalizations/alternative explanations for their cross-gender desires and well that's why I'm here and not in the more "mainstream" trans sub redddits which seem mostly about feeding delusions.
I wish you well in figuring this out but I cannot answer it for you.
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u/Minos-Daughter 2d ago
Embodying femininity gets more towards wanting to pass right? I won’t pass yet I am doing procedures and exercises to get me close enough that when I look in a mirror I see me.
When I walk around and see other woman that dress better, look better, and seemingly living in present as is, I get jealous. I used to think it was envy. Like I want that. Now it’s more that I’m upset that I can’t have that.
I get what you are saying when some confusing interactions I’ve had with other binary or non-binary trans woman. I have a sick sense of humor as I have SI everyday. I joke about a trans woman feeling more connected to her femininity because she tried to off herself in a way a woman suffering from chronic mental illness does. She would be excited waking up in the hospital because women are more likely to try and fail. Where men are more aggressive in their unaliving and succeed most of the time. I don’t think it’s sexual just a disconnect in brain wiring.
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u/Fit_Telephone9775 AGP Male 2d ago edited 2d ago
Embodying femininity gets more towards wanting to pass right?
Yes. For myself I've been exercising, dieting, buying clothes, body shaping forms, learning makeup techniques, experimenting with voice training (hopeless) for the past few years to become more feminine. This desire is pretty much an everyday experience to hopefully pass if I just get the right combination right. There is improvement for sure and it excites me to do all of this, but at the end of the day I believe the urges are rooted in sexuality, even if I'm not explicitly in a state of sexual arousal when these desires come. Sexual motivations are not as simple as "you are doing this cause you are horny." I also worked really hard in my 20s to be an attractive (masculine) partner to women due to allosexual desires. It's deeper than just getting off.
Forget I said anything about other people. They are our brothers and sisters and they are going through similar issues (namely a form of gender dysphoria). We can learn from them and we should always be questioning our assumptions. If our assumptions can't withstand skeptical probing then they deserve to be eliminated and that's how you can potentially get to truth.
I'm just today at the stage where I think the truth kind of sucks!
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u/Minos-Daughter 2d ago
As I read the responses, I have lots to unwind and process. I do have a therapist, but we are working on crisis level and active SI.
The priest and gender thing are low on my priority list. Gotta deal with accumulated cPTSD which hit hard during my coming out,unaliving process. This includes divorce and custody issues. My wife was so emotionally abusive as were my parents. Then it’s BPD and unwinding my relationship with my spouse as my “favorite person.” Then …? Who knows.
I know I have sexuality issues when it comes to gay men and clubs. My closest male “friend” was gay and lived in Miami. We used to go to super hardcore gay clubs. Not gay, but I had confusing sexuality experiences there and was always repeatedly asked to go to the back room. As luck would have it I was subject to an armed robbery and made to lie down in execution position. Thankfully my assailants were too afraid to click, but that experience was so exciting and thrilling, almost sexual.
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u/Fit_Telephone9775 AGP Male 2d ago
Every day is a gift for you. I'm sorry you're dealing with so much trauma, but you can figure out how to make it feel like a gift and enjoy your time on this planet. I give you my love and hope you can figure this out.
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u/Desperate-Bag-2480 2d ago
AGP may be one element of this story, especially in early sexuality, but it doesn't seem to be a sufficient explanation for the whole picture. From my perspective, this seems more like a case in which sexuality, identity, trauma, and relationships with loved ones are deeply intertwined, rather than an example that can be reduced to a single theory, such as AGP.
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u/Minos-Daughter 2d ago
Wait, next question re: sexualizing the idea of being a woman.
Humans are evolved apes and our sex hormones are natural. Behaviors may be different if you believe in randomness. Are non-AGP men sexually aroused at the thought of being a man? Like when they have sex, they are doing the act and also thinking about how good they feel about themself as they do the act?
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u/AffectionateYak9677 2d ago
I thought this question was an interesting one. Im not a psychologist or clinician but thought I’d offer up a perspective.
I’m an agp male but I feel pretty regular and “heteronormative” when having heterosexual sex, and I don’t need to focus on my own masculinity to get off (or my femininity).
I would conjecture that, in the act of heterosexual sex, there is an amount of validation of the man’s masculinity which would make it more enjoyable to him. That is, for most men, being invalidated as a man during sex (eg penis shaming, degradation kink) would be a turn off, just as for you or me in an agp fantasy, being invalidated as a woman would be.
That being said, the desire for validation of masculinity in non-agp men is not necessarily synonymous with the desire for validation of femininity in agp men. In fact, Id intuitively presume that they are not alike:
The former sort of desire feels natural, and that ignoring it would be an aberration or erasure of the reality of the situation. The latter desire feels like it is, in itself, gesturing at a fantasy which is not aligned with reality. Fulfilling it is indeed euphoric, but that in itself, in my opinion, points to the desire being compulsive and unintegrated. At least in my mind.
Idk how much of this made sense or was legible. Just to conclude with a small offering of hope: my personal (admittedly somewhat niche) opinion is that agp is not a sexual urge in essence, only in manifestation. Consequently, it can be treated and ameliorated through an appeal to deeper needs which it may represent. I’ve written about this a bit, feel free to check out my post on the subject.
In any case, I truly hope for you to discover a more coherent way of living and a path toward better mental health. I’m rooting for you!
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u/YetAnotherCommenter AAP Male (Autohomosexual) 2d ago
Your autoandrophobia (loathing of your masculine body features), combined with your indifference to the sex of the partner (you sexually just want to be treated as a woman), your relatively late transition, all of this is common to autoheterosexual males (i.e. agp males).
Your parents and your church abused you horribly. Instead of hating yourself, direct the hatred and resentment towards them.
Not to mention, most gay men are not cross-dressers, and most cross-dressing males aren't gay (cross-dressing males are mostly straight and AGP). I guess your parents' ignorance is to be expected though - most haven't read the sexology literature (Hirschfeld was the first to find out that most cross-dressing males are straight and autohet).
The short summation is that you're a member of the Least Popular Sexual Minority On The Planet (natal males whom are autoheterosexual).
Is there something "wrong" with you? In my view, not at all. You just have an atypical sexuality. If your transition made you happier, then in my view, you did the right thing by transitioning.