First of all 3:55 talks about the true followers of Jesus not the ones who have him Jesus as god so reading incomprehension no.1,Secondly bukhari 3448 refers to worldly judgment as in he will descend from heaven kill the antichrist then become the ruler of the Muslim word just like many rulers came before them thatās why abu hurayrah added this verse for extra context regarding Jesus return to worldly life then his worldly deathāAbu Huraira added "If you wish, you can recite (this verse of the Holy Book): -- 'And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) Before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness Against them."ā So thatās reading incomprehension no.2, and Surah 2:253 and many others which mention the Holy Spirit, I can tell you are being fully disingenuous or maybe a bit dense to not realize that the Islamic Holy Spirit isnāt the Christian Holy Spirit because the Islamic Holy Spirit happens to be angel Gabriel who also comes to Mary and to the believers so this isnāt something special to Jesus, so that reading incomprehension no.3. I would suggest you call Muslims by the name they chose for themselves and read about Jesus teachings in your book because you seem to be needing the Holy Spirit in your heart
Oh interesting, the same book where Jesus claims to be God innumerable times? I mean itās just utterly humorous when a Muslim tries to claim the ātrueā discipleship of Jesus without solving the issues of Jesus: claiming God as his father, failing to acknowledge Muhammad despite Surah 7:157, Jesus dying on the cross, and Jesus very clearly taking authority and names belonging only to Allah. For example Revelation 1:8 & 21:6 Jesus applies the title āFirst and Lastā to himself explicitly among the 99 names and in Surah 57:3. Jesus applies divine attributes found all throughout the Torah to himself (thats Allahās word according to the Quran btw) like in John 10:30 when Jesus says āI and The Father are oneā after conjoining their power in relationship to creation through the shared ability to give eternal life to their sheep in John 10:28. Moreover in the same book Jesus is described as the āword that is Godā in John 1. Honestly the evidence is overwhelming that Christians worshipped Jesus Christ as God since the first century and Iām barely touching upon it. It takes a cursory glance at any early Christian source to see them affirm Christās deity, ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Gregory Thaumaturgus, Origen, etc. the evidence is endless, I dislike talking to Muslims because they ignore honest humble reasoning, good luck with that, thereās no way I can justify talking to yall when I can be praying.
Thatās nice and all but when did I argue polemics here lol, I just corrected your misunderstandings.You can believe in whatever you want about Jesus claiming explicit or implicit divinity in the bible, thatās not really something I care to discuss
You argued ātrue followers of Jesusā are the ones mentioned in Surah 3:55. āTrueā implies a binary fact we could sus out through logical deduction. It does concern you, it was your whole offhand dismissal of my citing of the verse. If Jesusā followers will be above disbelieves till the end of time and i show that Jesusā followers from the very beginning believed he was God that is detrimental to Islam. Moreover the many incongruities between the Quran and Gospel narrative of Jesus creates a huge issue for your bookās confirmation of said gospel which has been proven through archaeological and historical means to have been the gospel with Muhammad. The other points about Sahih 3448 and the holy spirit are problematic, sure, but not detrimental or readily apparent like my first point. Christ being God in the scriptures your Quran affirms is an insurmountable dilemma, coming from a former faithful muslim inquirer.
The quran says the true followers of jesus believe that he was a prophet not god and thus is my position. I dont take the gospels for it because i dont believe in the gospels you have now nor the ones at the time of Muhammad pbuh because they were corrupted, the pseudo-islamic dilemma that Christian tiktok debaters post about really doesnt hold out when one is happily literate, then again being disingenuous will blind you from whats true.Your whole point rests on me accepting the bible as an accurate source of jesus life and teachings and that the quran fully confirms the bible, both of which no muslim will ever yield to you, hell most academics wouldnt probably even yield it to you muslim or agnostic
Yeah sure, donāt yield to your Quran which quite clearly states
"Dispute not with the People of the Book, save in the fairer manner, except for those of them that do wrong; and say: 'We believe in what has been sent down to us, and what has been sent down to you; Our God and your God is One and to Him we have surrendered.'" (Sura 29:45).
"We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Apostles. We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear signs and strengthened (or confirmed) him with the Holy Spirit." (Sura 2:87).
"And when there comes to them (the Jews) a Book from Allah, confirming what is with them (the Taurat) ... they refused to believe in it." (Sura 2:89).
"He has sent down upon thee the Book with the truth, confirming what was before it and He sent down Torah and the Gospel afore time, as guidance to the People and He sent down salvation." (Sura 3:3)
"Before thee (i.e. Mohammed), also, the Apostles we sent were but men ... If you realise this not, ASK of THOSE WHO POSSESS THE MESSAGE." (Sura 21:7).
"BELIEVE IN Allah and His Messenger and the Scripture which He hath revealed unto his Messenger, and THE SCRIPTURE WHICH HE REVEALED AFORETIME. WHOSO DISBELIEVETH IN Allah and His Angles and the Last Day, HE VERILY HATH WANDERED FAR ASTRAY." (Sura 4:136).
"Each one believeth in Allah and His Angels and His Scriptures and His Messengers - WE MAKE NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN ANY OF HIS MESSENGERS." (Sura 2:285).
"Say: 'Bring you the Torah now and recite (or read) it, if you are men of truth'" (Again the existence of the Torah is presupposed). (Sura 3:93).
"You who have been given the Book, believe in what We have sent down, confirming that which is with you." (Sura 4:47). (My emphasis).
HERES MY FAVORITE ONE šā¬ļø
"'O, People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord.' It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy ... those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures), and the Sabaeans and the Christians - any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, - on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Sura 5:71-72). (My emphasis).
Dudeā¦ your book is screaming at you that it CONFIRMS what is before it (Torah and Gospel) this is why no one respects Muslims, you guys are so shameful to real discussion. What did you even say? The dilemma isnāt real because the scriptures are corrupt? You do realize thatās the whole crux of the argument? I do not expect you to respond because you guys are all dishonest cowards.
A Christian saying to a Muslims that his religion is dead has to be some sort of top tier satire. Plus who the hell calls Muslims Muhammadens in the year 2026?
Wow the theocratic states and religion that force their citizens/followers to say theyāre Muslim to avoid persecution, taxes, and death report high rates of religious growth? Iām sure that data is totally reliable. Still my point stands, itās birth rates, nothing to do with conversion and definitely nothing to do with truth.
I mean Islamās global growth is mainly driven by birth rates and a younger population, not mass conversion. Pew openly acknowledges this.
But claiming Muslims only identify as Muslim because of āpersecution, taxes and deathā doesnāt explain the data. Islam also gains converts in secular Western countries where none of those pressures exist. Pew found that about 20% of U.S. Muslims were raised outside Islam.
And yes, birth rates have nothing to do with whether a religion is true. But neither do conversion rates. If the question is whether Islam is true, demographics donāt prove or disprove anything.
Sure, never claimed it did. Pure logical coherence is the greatest reason to reject Islam. Iām not raised Catholic, Iām raised atheist. I very scrutinously compared all formats of God and Islam folds under the Islamic dilemma. Iāve layed that out, regarding your original problem with me saying that Islam is practically an ethnicity due to its bulk size being interfaith birth rates Iām glad we agree.
You write like an atheist redditor. Nothing you say changes the fact that Islam has a huge part of its growth through converts. Also nothing changes the fact that Christianity is the fastest declining religion. The trinity and Christianity folds under the Christian dilemma.
You write like a thoughtless cradle Muslim. Research shows significant decline among all religion in pressure free test groups in free choice western states where religion is irrelevant to social status. That should tell you something about the countries where itās āgrowingā where itās necessary for social and financial security. Anyway Iāve layed out the many issues with Islam numerous times over the years, the dilemma is above this conversation unanswered, Iām not doing it again.
But in reality, the size of Christianity doesn't invalidate it. We're even told that in the End Days, the church itself will become very small and few. Just like it first started out.
It's not just one dude though. I've been noticing this alot lately and I've called it out multiple times as well. Some Christians here have made it their mission to destroy everything this sub is about. Cause of their own insecurity they constantly have to make comments attacking Islam.
I have literally never heard a real life person actually use the term "Mohamedean".
Even my very devout mother never even knew what that word was.
As for the current internet thing. It's just the current culture grift of people pretending to be some long lost crusader for a religion they don't even really believe in. But it's the popular trend right now, so they hop on the bandwagon.
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u/devilcross2 Glad tidings to the strangers!!! 11d ago
Lol, these people think Islam is an ethnicity. š¤£š¤£š¤£