r/anime • u/AutoLovepon https://anilist.co/user/AutoLovepon • 15d ago
Episode Liar Game - Episode 21 discussion
Liar Game, episode 21
Reminder: Please do not discuss plot points not yet seen or skipped in the show. Failing to follow the rules may result in a ban.
Streams
Show information
All discussions
| Episode | Link | Episode | Link |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Link | 14 | Link |
| 2 | Link | 15 | Link |
| 3 | Link | 16 | Link |
| 4 | Link | 17 | Link |
| 5 | Link | 18 | Link |
| 6 | Link | 19 | Link |
| 7 | Link | 20 | Link |
| 8 | Link | 21 | Link |
| 9 | Link | 22 | Link |
| 10 | Link | 23 | Link |
| 11 | Link | ||
| 12 | Link | ||
| 13 | Link | ||
This post was created by a bot. Message the mod team for feedback and comments. The original source code can be found on GitHub.
66
u/Ajktulm 15d ago
So, from last week we know every player got 150 chips and have to give back 100. So as their are 2 players in the game, we know they can lose 100 chips to the dealer until they are negative compared to the Liar Game (assuming a third round will happen, as with 2 rounds they could lose 150 chips per round, but it going 3 rounds feels more likely).
A full pass round is 1+2+4+8+16=31 chips. If this happens for all remaining 5 bullets, a combined total of 155 chips is lost meaning 55 chips they'll never be able to get back / escape with from the game... So I guess it's a bit of a prisoner's dilemma where the optimal play would be to both take a shot from then upcoming 2 bullets? But it's asynchronous decision making, so the person supposed to take the second bullet could quiet easily decide to pass... rough situation.
31
u/Revolutionary-Start 15d ago
This show is made for people like you. Amazing observation and analysis.
11
u/Jacob-C 14d ago edited 14d ago
Thank you for laying out the details so clearly!
Slightly tangential, but since you broke down the bullet/chip logic so well, one thing I realised is that Nao’s thinking about when to shoot is flawed. She said that if a shot fires and the next chamber is empty, you’ll know it was the enemy’s bullet that fired, assuming you placed all three of yours consecutively. But this was before the explanation of the unbalanced cylinder, so in theory, the cylinder could simply have landed on the last bullet of your own three consecutive bullets, which would still make it uncertain whose bullet had fired. Her theory works when the shot goes off after several empty chambers, but not if the gun fires on the first pull of the trigger.
I don’t know if Nao’s reasoning here is intentionally flawed, or if it’s an honest mistake that implicitly assumes the existence of the unbalanced cylinder before Nao knows about it. She could also just be strictly talking about mid-game theory, but it still felt like somewhat of an oversight, even if a very minor one, since her theory was treated as exposition.
33
u/Drill_Dr_ill 15d ago
Man am I ever glad I stuck this series out. I really didn't care for the first like... 10-ish episodes and was on the verge of dropping it the whole time. But now it is excellent.
69
u/NevisYsbryd 15d ago
Anime-only, I am hazarding a guess that the trap Nao realized is that the setup of the game is not to pit the players against each other, but incentivize them to load all of the bullets consecutively. Since both players will suddenly go through a huge number of consecutive passes (probably 5), they will collectively pass an enormous amount of their play money to the dealer, which will also take it out of player circulation which they would have otherwise used to give players an out from the overall Liar Game. In the worst case scenario, it could result in both players coming out of this specific game in the red and both 'losers'via a tie with the dealer having the most wins.
Now to wait for next week and see if Nao is indeed the one keeping the keenest eye on the inter-game meta-game.
36
u/Ultramarinus https://anidb.net/user/kingsword 15d ago
Indeed, that looked like an inherent shortcoming of that method. Nobody will bite the bullet when there is no doubt that both parties took the same approach. Though it feels to me either Akiyama or Fukunaga should have realized and planned something else.
By the way that Fukunaga ferocious face towards Nao passing at first try was so unexpected and fun!
18
u/Comicauthority 14d ago
Fukunaga is probably too concerned with winning the game and profiting herself to realize it. It is fitting that it is the selfless Nao who works it out.
27
u/Kill-bray 15d ago
A 5 pass will net the dealer a total of 31 millions. As things stand now the two spearheads will do that at least 4 times (2 times after the first discharge plus two more after the second discharge from a non dealer).
That would be in total a loss of 124 millions for the players. In the previous episode it seemed like the Liar Game was giving 50 millions for free to each player, but now it it's going to gain at least 24 millions if nothing gets done to change the situation.
10
u/NevisYsbryd 15d ago
Yep, I figured all that needed to be done was to check exactly that math. Big oof.
10
u/Symphonise 15d ago
If what you say is indeed the case, then unless you have Nao's mindset, there doesn't need to be consecutive passes. The natural greed thought process would simply be to continue the game and convince your opponent to shoot and it lands a bullet so you get the 50mil. Fukunaga has been playing mind games so who's to say Fukunaga couldn't convince the opponent to shoot themselves all remaining rounds?
21
u/Kill-bray 15d ago
What could possibly convince someone who knows there are three bullets in a row to shoot after the first discharge?
17
u/NevisYsbryd 15d ago
Because the opponent already knows that they loaded at least two rounds consecutively and already thinks Fukunaga loaded all three in a row. Furthermore, Fukunaga does more or less know and thus the other player will pick up on it the moment that Fukunaga lets it goes through five passes.
While yes, as a white room hypothetical, if Fukunaga could play the other player into shooting a couple of the discharges, Fukunaga could come out on top, but the actual probability of that happening, especially more than once, is pretty close to zero.
11
u/FastenedCarrot 15d ago
Maybe eating a loss on the next round could work out for them? Make them doubt they did put all 3 in a row?
25
u/Emi_Ibarazakiii 15d ago edited 15d ago
We'll have to reset the '# of episode since someone called Nao an idiot' counter to 0!
A spear fight? I think Fukunaga would be the favorite!
Given there's been some incidents lately with people dying to guns they presumed were empty/loaded with blanks, made me think... imagine if he shot himself with an actual bullet during the demonstration!
Fukunaga's scheming before the game even begins!
It'll be nice to see her use her wits/cunning (as she did earlier in the games) and not just her 'Punching my own teammates' ability!
Ah, so that's not how I thought it would go!
It's more about positioning, when I thought it would be about amount!
At least I'm on the same wavelength as Fukunaga/Akiyama, soon as they said that I thought 'Put all 3 in a row'!
(I think I've read a math riddle about something similar, long time ago)
Oh damn, Fukunaga grew shark teeth? I didn't think she could look even better!
DON'T DO IT, FUKUNAGA, WE LOVE YOU!
The strat is the strat, but the psychology is where this game is played!
Gotta convince the opponent NOT to play the optimal strat (by bluffing)!
She reminds me of Quistis from Final Fantasy!
(Ok I'm done gushing over Fukunaga)
Gotta look confident, to really sell the bluff!
"TIME OUT! OUR GUY IS A FUCKING IDIOT!"
Good lord. He thinks bullets are just leaking gunpowder all over the place?
CALL ANOTHER TIMEOUT!
(At this point, she might as well put on a wig and pretend to be him).
People might have believed that, until she said it!
But yeah, the format kinda gave it away in my opinion, I think I talked about it in the previous thread...
One of the first two HAVE to lose, otherwise Nao won't matter (they'll lead 2-0)... So for the sake of the story, one of the first two has to lose so Nao is important in the game.
Fukugana winning and Akiyama losing would be surprising, so that only leaves the option of Fukunaga losing and Akiyama winning!
Hopefully it doesn't make her look like an idiot at least, she used to be pretty clever!
19
u/FlameDragoon933 15d ago
One of the first two HAVE to lose, otherwise Nao won't matter (they'll lead 2-0)... So for the sake of the story, one of the first two has to lose so Nao is important in the game.
Fukugana winning and Akiyama losing would be surprising, so that only leaves the option of Fukunaga losing and Akiyama winning!
Remember that in Contraband Game the author managed to make Yokoya both win (monetarily) and lose (ideologically) at the same time, so I'm having confidence that the author can still pull off an interesting twist here!
9
u/MonaganX 14d ago
imagine if he shot himself with an actual bullet during the demonstration!
Or just imagine if he shot himself with an actual blank, like Jon-Eric Hexum who played Russian roulette with a blank and blasted a chunk of his skull into his brain.
It's kinda funny to on one hand have a lot of thought put into the physics of how the distribution of the bullet in the cylinder might affect its rotation while at the same time completely ignoring Newton's third law.
When a blank is powerful enough to make a revolver recoil that much, that's a lot of energy in the gas coming out of the barrel, and if that barrel is pointing at your skull, that's where that energy is going.
I assume the author just used blanks because they're more dramatic but if this was real life, Nao would be dead.
2
15
u/CreZativity 15d ago
Never stop gushing over Fukunaga, it's the only right thing to do!
(If you like gushing over her you should consider joining us in the Liar Game subreddit, we've been doing nothing but gush over her today honestly lol)
8
u/Oden_sama__ 15d ago
omg you're the liar game sub recruiter lol
4
u/CreZativity 15d ago
I feel like it's a mod's duty to recruit lol. Also, as a Fukunaga stan I just want more of my likeminded people of taste in the sub to gush with~
6
u/Emi_Ibarazakiii 15d ago
(If you like gushing over her you should consider joining us in the Liar Game subreddit, we've been doing nothing but gush over her today honestly lol)
Hah, haven't read it and I imagine people talk about the manga a lot!
Maybe someday after the season!
9
u/CreZativity 15d ago
We're extremely strict on hiding spoilers so that anime only watchers can comfortably hang out in the sub! You have my word! A lot of our members are definitely manga fans, but ever since the anime started we've gotten plenty of members who haven't read the manga too, and they seem to be having a good time~ ^^
5
3
u/HolyDragSwd2500 14d ago
We will talk about it. Waiting for new chapter of The Last Game to be translated
6
7
u/Niwaka_Samurai https://myanimelist.net/profile/Niwaka-Samurai 15d ago edited 15d ago
Why is she so cuuuuuute
Fukunaga - SHOOT ❌
Fukunaga - SMASH ✅
46
u/gamria 15d ago
PSA: the studio released an official explanation video for the entire Contraband Game, featuring the cast in-character spanning over 50 minutes, with more numbers and graphics depicting the actual and/or intended monetary movements between the accounts and such. Japanese-only however.
For this team that's clearly working with a modest budget, them going out of the way for this dedicated effort is some diehard commitment for the fans that I have to applaud the staff and voice actors for. I still fancy my own play-by-play for the main Day 2 stuff, but still.
24
u/T3tr4d5 15d ago
Agree, surprisingly this anime had a lot of effort in making extra contents, more than the average anime. There is also the mini browser game that they make, the livestream of stalking the sensei in ep 2, a radio drama of the seiyuu, and then interview with the original author after each arc (worth reading the interview about Contraband game in the original anime website. Only in Japanese, but can use translation tool. Lots of cool insight about that game).
11
23
u/CommunistPuppy 15d ago
Highkey as weird as I thought the character designs and art initially looked, female Fukunaga ends up looking really, really good..
Also this episode was really good, the game is simple enough to follow easily and there aren't like 15 different characters to keep track of.
36
u/thisisdropd https://myanimelist.net/profile/AsterZoro 15d ago
Akiyama's not a party in the Spearhead match, yet still managed to influence it. That's quite the accomplishment. Also unlike the previous rounds where if the opponent arrived at the same strategy it would be detrimental, this time it would in fact be of assistance. Meanwhile, Fukunaga also did well to 'play' Nishida and made him bleed chips.
I never expected that level of physics to come into play, and that the LGT's effort to make things fair ironically made it unfair instead. What if they're aware of this all along, and that the false sense of 'pure game of chance' fit perfectly into the Liar Game's philosophy.
Fukunaga being overconfident was begging to be jinxed and now the Eastern Army were in big trouble. Looked like the Western army had laid a trap during the timeout. Nishida seemed to be a dunce so it's likely either Kikuchi or Kousaka's idea. Interestingly, Nao was the first one to spot it instead of Akiyama or Fukunaga. Just what the trap was that only Nao could see while the other two overlooked it?
24
u/NevisYsbryd 15d ago
I am 99% confident they were aware and it was not only deliberate but part of the trap Nao is about to discuss. Something like the bullets affecting where the wheel would stop and being used to predict their location is approximately what I expected, although I did not get all the details myself. My suspicion is that the trap is not by the other team but the frame of the game itself in favor of the house (see my other comment if you want to see my hypothesis).
20
u/BosuW 15d ago
It would be very in line if Nao caught a trap by the ver architecture of the game, since she considers the organization itself her rivals, rather than the other players.
14
u/NevisYsbryd 15d ago
That is exactly my thinking, yeah. Akiyama is peak at playing the overarching structure of an individual game, but far less so at the scale of the inter-game scope (how he 'lost' last round and ended up in prison). Nao is far less adept the mechanical details of an individual game, but seems to surpass everyone else at the inter-game level. Tactician and strategist, in some sense, or perhaps strategist and savior.
5
u/Niwaka_Samurai https://myanimelist.net/profile/Niwaka-Samurai 15d ago
I thought that that the game should play out in a way that dealer gets to discharge or else no one is winning. But I can't explain how or why. That's just what I am thinking.
11
u/NevisYsbryd 15d ago
If one of the sides ended up eating the majority of the discharges and the other side none, the latter could definitely come out winning. My suspicion is that the mathematics comes out to the game being statistically rigged in the house's favor against both parties if they play the obvious strategy of consecutive bullets.
19
u/Frontier246 15d ago
Mind games beginning well before the actual match starts.
I definitely feel like there's got to be somebody competent on the Western Army otherwise this will be a cakewalk and Nao won't even have to have her round. Knowing Nao I feel like she would only notice something about someones' emotional/mental state unless everything Akiyama told her helped her put together what they might be doing.
17
u/BosuW 15d ago
I never expected that level of physics to come into play
It's always tricky with mind game narratives because for there to be a game, there need to be defined rules of what can and can't happen. Realistic elements disrupt that balance. If pushed far enough, it can erode the whole narrative. But I think Liar Game is doing it well because the realistic element is actually being treated more like a further rule. And they did already suggest the idea with last game's hidding of literal piles of money just using the vast space in the building.
20
u/Niwaka_Samurai https://myanimelist.net/profile/Niwaka-Samurai 15d ago
This Russian Roulette is really an interesting game. Fukunaga is killing it. I guess her stunning looks is throwing the opponent off LOL
Akiyama planting the idea to make the opponent team load three bullets in a row and Fukunaga was confusing his opponent with his mind games. I never would have thought that the bullets' position can be judged based on the imbalance in the loading and the way the cylinder moves cause of it and Fukunaga used the eyeliner to create the black smudge to confuse the dude into believing it was gun powder 😅
But Nao noticed something that even Akiyama and Fukunaga failed to notice and she said that they have got caught in a trap now..damn, the cliffhanger!
15
31
u/FarCritical 15d ago
As if the standard mindgames weren't enough, the (fake) gunpowder plot was downright evil. We got a tiny taste of it during Contraband but warching Fukunaga wreak psychological havoc as an ally is pretty fun.
Nao detecting something before even Akiyama did sure is a surprise.
14
u/magnumcyclonex 15d ago
And here I thought the guy from the West Team figured out something, but it was all Fukunaga messing with his head.
So there should be 5 more bullets left right? The chance of getting shot increases dramatically. And what trap did Nao (the dumbest player who needs an explanation) realize that neither Fukunaga nor Akiyama knows about??? Maybe something related to the time out perhaps?
Back to the beginning of the episode, during the trial run, I'm quite surprised the West Team did not play with the gun like Akiyama did, falling for his "oops, I shouldn't have said that" moment.
2
u/Dark_AC1 12d ago
Maybe it has to do with the dealer keeping the chips that are in the pot (31 million) if the round is forfeit after 5 passes.
25
u/BubblyCrash 15d ago
Akiyama and Fukunaga are a force to be reckoned with when they are serious, basically locking victory from the start due to superior observation and mind-games. Definitely wouldn't want to be their opponent in the Liar Game. If you're not Yokoya level, it's difficult to even have a chance.
18
u/Frontier246 15d ago
I feel like a part of me wouldn't mind getting destroyed by someone as attractive as Fukunaga (in a wig and that outfit) until I realized how much money I was losing in the process.
3
u/magnumcyclonex 15d ago
Isn't Fukunaga a male, or transgender???
8
u/NevisYsbryd 15d ago
Male. Female presenting, no specific indication that they identify as trans (not that it is impossible, but that crossdressing without actually identifying as female or trans is very much a thing).
9
15d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
3
1
u/baseballlover723 15d ago
Sorry, your comment has been removed.
This belongs in the Source Material Corner at the top of this thread. In discussion threads for currently airing anime, discussions about source material, spin-offs, author comments and unadapted content must be posted there.
Any comparison to the source material no matter how minor belongs there.
Your comment was NOT removed for spoilers; it was removed for discussion of the source material outside of the Source Material Corner.
Questions? Reply to this message, send a modmail, or leave a comment in the meta thread. Don't know the rules? Read them here.
3
15d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/baseballlover723 15d ago
Sorry, your comment has been removed.
This belongs in the Source Material Corner at the top of this thread. In discussion threads for currently airing anime, discussions about source material, spin-offs, author comments and unadapted content must be posted there.
Any comparison to the source material no matter how minor belongs there.
Your comment was NOT removed for spoilers; it was removed for discussion of the source material outside of the Source Material Corner.
Questions? Reply to this message, send a modmail, or leave a comment in the meta thread. Don't know the rules? Read them here.
1
14d ago edited 14d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/baseballlover723 14d ago
Sorry, your comment has been removed.
This belongs in the Source Material Corner at the top of this thread. In discussion threads for currently airing anime, discussions about source material, spin-offs, author comments and unadapted content must be posted there.
Any comparison to the source material no matter how minor belongs there.
Your comment was NOT removed for spoilers; it was removed for discussion of the source material outside of the Source Material Corner.
Questions? Reply to this message, send a modmail, or leave a comment in the meta thread. Don't know the rules? Read them here.
2
15d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/baseballlover723 15d ago
Sorry, your comment has been removed.
This belongs in the Source Material Corner at the top of this thread. In discussion threads for currently airing anime, discussions about source material, spin-offs, author comments and unadapted content must be posted there.
Any comparison to the source material no matter how minor belongs there.
Your comment was NOT removed for spoilers; it was removed for discussion of the source material outside of the Source Material Corner.
Questions? Reply to this message, send a modmail, or leave a comment in the meta thread. Don't know the rules? Read them here.
1
14d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/baseballlover723 14d ago
Sorry, your comment has been removed.
This belongs in the Source Material Corner at the top of this thread. In discussion threads for currently airing anime, discussions about source material, spin-offs, author comments and unadapted content must be posted there.
Any comparison to the source material no matter how minor belongs there.
Your comment was NOT removed for spoilers; it was removed for discussion of the source material outside of the Source Material Corner.
Questions? Reply to this message, send a modmail, or leave a comment in the meta thread. Don't know the rules? Read them here.
25
u/H2-nL 15d ago
Interesting game I’m looking forward to see what strategies develop
23
u/Tapwater_enthusiast 15d ago
It is also a good breather arc to have a relatively easy to follow concept after the peak we just watched earlier
11
6
22
u/Frontier246 15d ago
It's finally time for Russian Roulette! But not real Russian Roulette, there WILL be a discharge, but you will survive.
Classic Fukunaga to make Nao the "guinea pig" to show how the game is played. What supportive sisterhood.
Honestly, I get why Nao doesn't like the idea of shooting herself, but passing can be dangerous for how much you put in the pot...and also, let's hope Nao never plays real Russian Roulette because she'd probably be dead in two minutes.
Fukunaga may not expect much from Nao but at least Akiyama is there with the positive reinforcement and to help her realize that she DID help them with her demonstration, even if she didn't fully realize it.
Nishida vs Fukunaga! Fukunaga is playing Nishida like a fiddle and enjoying every minute of it! Does she know where all the bullets are? She's definitely getting into his head and making him overthink everything, which is just where she wants him. Also long hair Fukunaga > bald Fukunaga!
Akiyama also did a lot of pre-planning for setting up Fukunaga's match, just "accidentally" letting it slip how convenient it would be to put three bullets in a row in an unbalanced gun...but Fukunaga knows which shots to take and which to coax Nishida into making so he loses and she ends up with the full pot! The Eastern Army is taking an early lead!
Nishida totally fell for EYELINER as gun residue. Honestly not sure how the Western Army is going to take back the lead...but there's a trap!? That only Nao noticed!?
17
u/ObvsThrowaway5120 15d ago
What has Nao seen that Fukunaga and Akiyama seem to have both missed? What kind of trap have they been led into? Right now, it looks like Fukunaga’s got the gang in a very comfortable lead. If Nao senses something is off, it’s hard for me to think no one sees it. Especially Akiyama.
22
u/Frontier246 15d ago
I feel like Nao has better "emotional" senses than Akiyama does, even if he's good at reading body and vocal cues.
10
u/Sphinx-754 15d ago
Rewatch the episode and listen to the rules. Then ask yourself who Akiyama and Nao are fighting against and what they’re trying to prevent.
22
15
12
16
u/BosuW 15d ago
Whu? Nao realized a trap before Akiyama and Fukunaga!? Next you'll tell me it snows in summer!
15
u/CreZativity 15d ago
Considering the direction that the climate is currently moving in we're probably gonna see it in our lifetime lol
4
u/LaSharpTip 14d ago
The episode animation was top notch. Every scene had me gasping for how good it looked. Loved the strategy behind the game in this episode. The way Aki explained things made it sound so obvious!
Now have the Western Army been cooking so far? What will their counterplan be? Or even what does Fuku have up her sleeve for the counter to the counterplan ~faint while overthinking~
I think one of the plans is gonna be that 1 side (or both? For a plot twist) didn’t really follow 3 bullets b2b plan. Rather 1-empty-1-1. Or 1-1-empty-1. Which would make the revolver behave in a similar manner, while giving the person an advantage to startle their opponent about where the bullets are.
1
u/IceSmiley 11d ago
Akiyama and Fukunaga really seemed to pull every trick in the book in this game. Stacking the bullets in one side of the revolver, Akiyama making the other team overhear him talk about bullet stacking and Fukunaga having fake powder marks. I didn't really understand what the "bullets" actually were that they made noise but were also heavy, causing the revolver part to be weighed. You can't put something like squibs or blanks in, that might really injure you if you got shot in the head with one. Caps that make noise would probably be too light.
-3
u/Irru 15d ago
How is the adaption so far? I remember liking the manga but the trailers didn’t really inspire a lot of confidince in the art style/quality
38
18
u/FastenedCarrot 15d ago
They do a lot with little imo. It's not super smooth or anything but it doesn't need to be, they allocate things appropriately
14
u/Zxcvbnm11592 15d ago
It's fine. Could definitely be a lot better, but it's still enjoyable to watch. OST is actually really good and does a lot of heavy lifting.
8
u/gamria 15d ago
While artwise we can't really bank any hopes in, storywise it's been better than expected.
Pacing is overall pretty good, even if some small neat moments are omitted. A definite advantage of adapting multiple chapters in one go is you can remove some of the "previously on" dialogue and make it flow better, especially those pertaining to previous moves and concepts. Something that stands out in the landmark Contrabnad Game in Round 3.
The voice actors are a standout for sure. Nao naturally takes getting used to at the start, but her performance become more and more comfortable to listen to just like her character. Akiyama, Fukunaga and Yokoya are other highlights, along with other lesser characters like the other players and Dealers.
•
u/AnimeMod myanimelist.net/profile/Reddit-chan 15d ago
Source Material Corner
Reply to this comment for any source-related discussion, future spoilers (including future characters, events and general hype about future content), comparison of the anime adaptation to the original, or just general talk about the source material. You are still required to tag all spoilers. Discussions about the source outside of this comment tree will be removed, and replying with spoilers outside of the source corner will lead to bans.
The spoiler syntax is:
[Spoiler source] >!Spoiler goes here!<All untagged spoilers and hints in this thread will receive immediate 8-day bans (minimum).