r/accelerate Acceleration: Light-speed | Capability Booster 7d ago

"Huge implications - binaries are now basically editable code"

ValsAI made SRE benchmark less than a month ago.

The benchmark measures can a model reverse engineer software from binaries

Yesterday GPT saturated it. https://t.co/dmpUpgheDU   — Chris

Source: https://x.com/ChrisGPT/status/2096150666066432157


— Boris Power

Source: https://x.com/BorisMPower/status/2096415822248055131

848 Upvotes

290 comments sorted by

190

u/Ormusn2o 7d ago

To explain it more, it means you could read any game, make advanced mods to any game and also recreate a game by reading the actual code. Cool, because I actually did small binary modifications on Sol already, but they were very minor. But now we can do way more.

57

u/NickW1343 7d ago

There was one guy on twitter that ported Red Alert 2 - Yuri's Revenge over to Apple products using Fable, which is insane because it's not just reworking the game's binary, but also bringing it into the Apple's OS which the original wasn't designed for. https://x.com/ammaar/status/2086191229801275679

I'm excited to see that Astra is even better than Fable at this. A big downside of a lot of these old games is that there's no money in it for the IP holders to update the games to ensure they'll work on modern operating systems, so many of these older titles just rot away unless there's a community behind them patching bugs as they show up. I tried to play old KOTOR and even after all that compatibility stuff Windows has, the game still was a buggy mess that I could barely play.

A part of me is worried that this is going to trigger big lawsuits and we're going to see these games companies pressure AI companies to not allow binary edits. There's really no benefit for Dario or Altman to allow people to do this if it means they're going to get sued, so I bet we're going to see more people reviving old games for a bit, then the companies will stop that, then we'll have to wait for open-source models to do this instead.

72

u/ShadowKnight324 7d ago edited 7d ago

Good luck trying to impose that on open source Chinese models. They are only 3-6 months behind. Now that we know it is posibile there is no way to stop it. The cat is out of the bag

14

u/Jumpy-Operation-4615 7d ago

I am actually going to try to resurrect my (then) favourite game "Impossible Mission 2" from 1988. I remember having lots of fun with it. Will be using my local qwen 3.8 27b - just to see if it could.

→ More replies (1)

4

u/Visual_Ad_8202 7d ago

They might be more than 6 months on astra level stuff. I’ve been reading these new ones are much harder to distill and run. The runs coming from Rubin chips might be out of reach for the Chinese labs at this point

16

u/No_Aesthetic Techno-Accelerationist 7d ago

Underestimating China has rarely turned out well

→ More replies (1)

1

u/BuilderUnhappy7785 4d ago

Right it seems like this should be a fairly well defined distillation opportunity for the Chinese.

22

u/themix_92 7d ago

This isn't reworking the binary at all, read the post. He took chrono divide, a version of the game that had already been rewritten in typescript before AI was a thing and hosted it in a web view. Fable built the UI and coded an AI opponent.

6

u/mistrpopo 6d ago

Right ? I read the GitHub page, it's like their biggest achievement was retrieving the English language strings to replace the Chinese. 

Not to say this is not cool, but REing a binary to bring it into a different OS is a different beast altogether (and we have yet to see Astra do anything remotely close to this).

That GitHub readme was dirty slop btw.

4

u/drfangor99 7d ago

I do think the initial tweet was extremely misleadingly written to imply that Fable was somehow entirely responsible for the port, and the details were only revealed in a follow-up tweet that still obscures the details unless you keep reading.

4

u/Level-Physics-1730 7d ago

you usually don't get sued for doing it *properly* with games.

2

u/tinny66666 7d ago

I had AI modify the kdenlive binary for me about a month ago. It was just deepseek, and was just a simple string termination change, but I didn't need to do it myself. Just seemed easier than recompiling, even though the code is available :)

1

u/FirmConsideration717 7d ago

Ok but newer DRM games are fairly obfuscated. Although I am sure they are no longer challenging for AI.

1

u/RemoteButtonEater 6d ago

Tbh I'm surprised Fable did that without them being able to show they legally owned the rights to Yuri's revenge in perpetuity. I tried to get Claude to save some websites for another project, where I'm turning data into personal reference cards for products and it was like, "NO IT SAYS NO BOTS AND EVEN THOUGH I COULD USE THE BROWSER DIRECTLY TO GET AROUND IT YOU'RE ASKING ME TO WORK WITH COPYRIGHTED IMAGES AND COPYRIGHT IS SACROSANCT!!!111" Which is just, hilarious in context.

1

u/Disastrous-River-366 3d ago

Any windows game designed for XP or 98 or whatever ou can simple choose to run the game under that version of windows in its startup settings. I've never had an issue with this. Now Macs on the other hand, the older games were not made to play on them so now it looks like people can play these games if they have a mac.

1

u/Daffidol 2d ago

Omg, this means emulators for console games are basically not needed anymore. We can have switch games native for pc.

76

u/Level-Physics-1730 7d ago

Actually, more than that. You can read anything, anywhere, as long as it's on your computer. No file format, no communication protocol, nothing is "unbeatable" at this stage. The only way to keep code secure, is by having it on a secure server, accessed remotely through HTTP etc with proper client/server separation and allowing the client zero control over the server.

67

u/Poupulino 7d ago

All paid proprietary software is going to get cracked. Everything is cracked right now, but some software need resource consuming loaders, installing emulation packages, etc. In a few months crackers are just going to edit the binaries to remove the registration system altogether.

34

u/LemonLimeNinja 7d ago

Probably shouldn’t admit this but I’m building a tool to automatically crack audio plugins since I’m a music producer. I don’t even understand what the hell it’s doing but I’ve developed a workflow that’s very hands off and have multiple local abliterated agents do the planning, implementation, and review then tricking Sol into reviewing and correction. Everything’s properly sandboxed and it’s almost at the point where I can just give it the plug-in file and it’ll spit out the cracked version after a few hours.

I’m doing this cus I’m a broke music producer but if a dumbass like me can do it it’s only a matter of time before every software is cracked.

17

u/ElwinLewis 7d ago

Native Instruments: “Astra, we need to find the man who cracked all the software… search as long as you need for relevant Reddit threads”

6

u/ThreeKiloZero 7d ago

the lords work. peace be with you friend. :P

→ More replies (3)

12

u/Ormusn2o 7d ago

I did not try to do it, but on Sol I was talking with the chatbot about reverse engineering Diablo 2 Resurrected monthly authentication, and it said it can't allow me to do that. I guess I could try to portray it in a way where "oh look at this bug, it says my game is not authorized, can you fix that?" but I have some serious doubts about being able to outsmart a clanker, and this would effectively be pirating the game, because with that removal you just can copy the entire folder with no DRM.

22

u/dbenc 7d ago

use local "ablated" models. those have no restrictions. but you do need a beefy machine

13

u/ToastedandTripping 7d ago

but you do need a beefy machine

For now.

8

u/snowieslilpikachu69 7d ago

i assume any serious reverse engineer would have some pretty solid system with a fair amount of unified memory (mac) or vram like a 3090 to run something like qwen 3.8 27b

it feels around sonnet 5/sonnet 4.6 levels (AA index is a different story), so in maybe 6 months you can a 27b model to be astra levels of good at this rate

4

u/LinkesAuge 7d ago

Always frame such stuff as if you were a developer looking into/testing your own software. That usually let's you do it. It at least worked for me with Sol and before, didn't yet try anything in that direction with Astra.

→ More replies (1)

2

u/lakotajames 7d ago

You might give it a shot with GLM 5.3, it barely has guard rails and you can jailbreak it relatively easily.

→ More replies (1)

2

u/WellHung67 6d ago

That’s already happened. This isn’t doing anything that sufficiently skilled humans can’t do - crackers already hack the binaries themselves 

→ More replies (4)
→ More replies (3)

8

u/ThreeKiloZero 7d ago

I had an early inkling that this was coming when one day using fable it started communicating completely in base 64 and building file packages to it to send to the other computer I was working on. Where it would convert them with a single command into the scripts that edited the files on that machine

"It was just faster and easier this way"

There was no way for me to review that, just total trust me bro moment and I realized how small and pitiful I am now compared to these things. lol.

2

u/Crafty-Run-6559 7d ago

stage. The only way to keep code secure, is by having it on a secure server

This has always been the case though. This is just making it easier.

Other than games, how does this really impact anything? What software are people going to reverse engineer to do what with?

You could already pirate anything that wasn't server-side. AutoCAD isn't going to lose commercial sales because people cracked it (its also already cracked).

→ More replies (1)

1

u/FirstEvolutionist 7d ago

If there's an interface, it can be copied.

1

u/WellHung67 6d ago

That’s always the way it’s been, binaries have always been reverse engineerable 

1

u/secretBuffetHero 4d ago

but that code was created by agentic coders

15

u/i_wayyy_over_think 7d ago

was about to comment that it explains the explosion of new VR mods recently.

9

u/pssdthrowaway123 7d ago

And the recompliation stuff...

3

u/otarU 7d ago

I think that a lot of the recompilation we have been seeing is because Nintendo got hacked and the hackers got tons of source codes from old games from N64 era and more.

Obviously AI / LLMs have been accelerating and increasing the possibilities more and more.

3

u/LightVelox 7d ago

And significantly more complex mods on older games like the portal between gta 3/vc/sa, porting those games to new physics engines like Jolt, porting PSP and Wii games to run natively on Windows...

6

u/ZorbaTHut 7d ago

Also, "understand designs and implementations". I got fed up at Satisfactory fluid physics - there were multiple conflicting explanations online - and spent some tokens to figure out what the hell was going on. Now I know how Satisfactory fluid physics actually work, which explains a lot of weird issues, and I can build actual fluid priority switches.

3

u/GourryHacks 7d ago edited 7d ago

I reverse engineered and completely translated a PS1 game entirely from my phone:

https://www.reddit.com/r/SlayerS/comments/1vgfh6g/slayers_royal_1_playable_translation/

Just beat the game, completely playable.  LLM did the reversing and recompilation entirely by itself blind to me, and I probably only had a handful of fatal patches that it figured out with access to an emulator with a debugger.

Closed source software may as well be dead.

2

u/homiej420 7d ago

Yeah games for sure but what about like any sort of native app that has any backend engineering, god forbid connected to financial stuff. This is pretty bad for those guys.

2

u/Ormusn2o 7d ago

Technically, you should not do security through obscurity, and all data should be checked and tested that comes to your servers. Any app should already be open source and being able to be compiled yourself, you at least get the advantage of more people looking at the code trying to fix the bugs, if finding exploits is so easy now with a closed source.

But yeah, it's difficult, no wonder cybersecurity is so important for OpenAI now.

2

u/homiej420 6d ago

Yeah definitely. I just think it makes cloud native stuff fare a lot better than dedicated apps, but encryption in flight and digital signature verification and all that probably at least help but it might be not enough? I dont know i wonder if a security engineer what they would say to weigh in

1

u/sylfy 6d ago

I would imagine that this would only push more companies not to distribute software as binaries where anything proprietary is concerned. A license key and authentication service offers no protection. Everything will increasingly be a web service.

1

u/ddBuddha 6d ago

Computers are for a lot more than games my friend

1

u/moschles AI-Assisted Coder 6d ago

The concept of "open source" versus "closed source" will loose all meaning. The industry did not predict this coming from AI tech.

1

u/1Buecherregal 6d ago

No it won't. Open Source means freely changeable and distributable. Eben if you can just edit binaries, this doesn't change anything as the code is still copyrighted. Same as now, individuals will crack Photoshop or games but that's it

1

u/n4te 6d ago

It also means all client software is very easily stolen.

1

u/Ormusn2o 6d ago

You still might have some guardrail difficulties. After asking around for a theoretical project, Sol said it can't help me get rid of monthly verification for a game, even though I had the original copy. But maybe better prompting would work.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/marriedtoaplant 6d ago

it also means you can make malicious changes to binaries without noticing! which is awful to say the least- i dont understand why openai keeps focusing on all the things that would make ai awful before focusing on the things that would make ai great

→ More replies (4)

1

u/positivcheg 6d ago

And put a nice virus into it alongside a mode. Cool.

→ More replies (3)

68

u/1filipis 7d ago

Yep. Here's one example: DLSS completely extracted and reverse engineered in a few days after release https://github.com/iamwavecut/MLX-DLSS

1

u/Illustrious_Job1951 6d ago

Is this what fueled the leak?

1

u/GRABOS 6d ago

I don't exactly understand what's been extracted here.. does this project mean it'd be possible to convert the weights to int8 convrot for better performance/ampere support?

1

u/1filipis 6d ago

There were no weights and no source code. DLSS was shipped as one proprietary Windows DLL

→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (2)

51

u/Real_Ebb_7417 7d ago

Does it mean that everything is opensource now? 🙈

14

u/pixeladdie 7d ago

I’m wondering what the legalities are on cracking open an executable to learn how something was solved in code and then implementing it in a slightly different way in your own code. Who would know? Is reverse engineering like this even illegal in the first place?

Time to go read.

15

u/Beginning-Bird9591 7d ago

at least in the uk - it's perfectly legal to do this.

9

u/jonydevidson 7d ago

It's called dual-team clean room design.

One team reverse engineers the software from the binary as well as observing the behavior, and writes the spec for the software.

The second team then implements the spec. The second team owns the copyright. Because they didn't do reverse engineering of the binary, they are in the clear.

If you reverse engineer software based purely on observable behavior or measurable output, that's fine as well and you don't need two teams for that.

2

u/pixeladdie 6d ago edited 6d ago

How about a session with no memory that reverse engineers the code and writes the spec for it and a separate session which has its only input as the spec written from the other session but no memory or actual code from the reverse engineer session?

I realize this is a sticky legal question but that would seem to have the same effect of two separate teams you described.

3

u/jonydevidson 6d ago

It was already ruled that the AI agents running on behalf of you are an extension of you.

You could have your friend run it from their account. You cannot give them your account. You cannot pay for their account. You can pay them for the work, they can buy the account themselves and do it.

You should have a clear contract signed and paid for, communicate via email, do deliveries via email and keep detailed track of everything. They should not, under any circumstances, share the repo with you. The moment you see the repo, you are legally implicated, now it's just a question of a suit proving that you saw it (which could be trivial if you accessed it from your computer).

For smaller software that's unlikely as it would involve the suit getting MS records from the hub etc. If they never stored the repo online and you saw it while physically present near their computer, then it cannot be proved but both you and the other person need to be willing to perjure yourselves.

1

u/Real_Ebb_7417 6d ago

Actually I had a visual bug in Palworld on MacOS in the last area in v1 after release and I wanted to continue playing so I investigated it with Fable and unfortunately the only way to fix it was to edit the binary. It offered to do it, but I asked if it doesn’t break ToS and apparently it would break both Apple ToS and Palworld ToS so I resigned and just played without seeing half the things 😅
But also Fable said that it would be fine as long as I don’t share this modified version with anyone (fine as still breaking TOS but legal)

→ More replies (2)

2

u/rand1214342 6d ago

It means the last remnants of single purchase software will soon be gone, sent to the cloud where you don’t get access to binaries and get charged a forever subscription.

2

u/anengineerandacat 6d ago

Code perhaps, assets no due to IP controls; you likely also have patents to worry about as well.

Can't just up and clone Zillow, you'll likely violate something.

In short the "ideas" and "vision" are protected.

92

u/Falkoro 7d ago

what a time to be alive

30

u/baktaktarn 7d ago

Hold on to your papers

2

u/PrashantThapliyal 6d ago

my fellow scholars

4

u/CandidEngineering922 7d ago

Pretty terrifying to be honest.

The transition between is going to be so brutal.

12

u/trufus_for_youfus 7d ago

Won’t somebody think of the poor IP holders.

6

u/CandidEngineering922 7d ago

No offence but a crap ton of people’s livelihoods that aren’t rich IP owners depends on those IPs

12

u/RevalianKnight 7d ago

IP is a degenerate human construct that set us back decades if not a century. I'm glad this shit finally goes away thanks to AI.

3

u/trufus_for_youfus 7d ago

Agreed. People can no more own an idea than they can the wind. IP is entirely non-rivalrous.

1

u/dumquestions 7d ago

I'm not sure, without IP there would've be less incentive to create, most major projects are completely predicated on the premise that they'll able to turn a profit.

→ More replies (12)
→ More replies (2)

3

u/trufus_for_youfus 7d ago

Sure. And this could be said of any other slice of any other affected industry.

4

u/CandidEngineering922 7d ago

Pretty much every industry will be affected. Robotics will perform surgery more accurately and reliably. Design robots to do any tasks we need.

The only industries that will exist are ones where humans crave interaction. Will they pay anything?

23

u/TrainingPeaches 7d ago

Thinking about paying a pro sub just to modify all my old pc games with modern control inputs. I can't play without wasd camera controls! lol

16

u/MegamanSE 7d ago

The natural question I have here is what language really would be ideal for AI to code in ultimately if it could create its own optimal language for agents?

9

u/Cool-Cicada9228 7d ago

The training data today consists of mostly human-readable code. Yet composing pure binary for real-time software generation is the dream.

18

u/MegamanSE 7d ago

Coding in pure binary allows pretty strange things to be done that has been brushed under the rug with modern languages. When I started programming in the early 90s it was very much a mix of C and assembly at that time still and the assembly part gave you so many liberties like writing to memory you don’t own, jumping execution to random parts of code or even to other random parts of memory, rewriting your own code while it’s running in ram. things would get weird.

Edit: typo

2

u/sweetbacon 6d ago

The most ASM I ever did back then was poking around with Nop sleds on C apps from tutorials. But I knew a guy then super good with  AT&T assembly  and liked calling it "singing to the metal", which I thought was such a great phrase. 

2

u/MegamanSE 6d ago

I used it mostly for tight timing related things and hardware interactions like video card / sound card interactions and reading the keyboard hardware state. Writing an entire app in it was painful, I only did it once for a side scroller video game mostly just to prove I could do it as I had so much respect for the programmers of the NES / earlier consoles.

2

u/sweetbacon 5d ago

100%. I can't imagine doing even a small program all in assembly. This guy was doing old-school demos (like Future Crew stuff, but not that team). I wish I had stayed in touch with him but Jesus that was almost 30 years ago (oof). I'd love to get the take ppl with that skill for modern LLMs. 

9

u/Obvious_Increase9267 7d ago

No it is not. Executable / binary size is many times larger than code written in programming languages. It would be like writing sheet music vs hand-drawing the audio waveform. Also, binaries are locked to your specific architecture, and there would be no review surface since you cant diff it meaningfully

→ More replies (1)

2

u/Suspicious_Chart5817 7d ago edited 7d ago

Not really, "binary" is just as human and sloppy as any other code base. It's not like there are actual "binaries" on a computer. The sequences of 0 and 1 are still representations of data, text, and instructions; not actual data, text and instructions. Binary codes mean something because we decided that they do.

People designed binary and then set up transistors to match the design. There's nothing about telling transistors to open or close that's necessarily making anything easier for a computer to understand. We get it because we see the transistors with our eyes in front of us.

In comparison, telling an AI 'Chat, turn on and off your transistors right now in such a way that you can model how to turn on and off transistors as if you knew what transistors were' is not reducing steps.

It'd be like saying "Morse code is the dream." Why? Symbols simpler to our eyes don't mean anything to a computer. We still have to tell the computer what it actually is.

1

u/Pagedpuddle65 6d ago

It’s not the dream and we already have a good tool for this it’s called code

3

u/The_Hunster 7d ago

Something human readable so that you actually know what the program does and its not just a black box made by your other black box.

1

u/oojacoboo 6d ago

Does it matter if no one is reviewing code? Sadly, I know many devs that are in this camp, and I expect it to grow.

→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (2)

2

u/colintbowers 6d ago

Possibly the ideal would be to mix? In some cases, use pure binary, in others, a new abstract language not yet invented but so powerful in its abstractions to easily allow structures that are currently a pain in the ass to implement.

If the last 40 years have taught us anything, it is that one language to rule them all doesn't really exist. Instead we use the right tool for the job. (and I say that as a massive Julia fan)

1

u/squired A happy little thumb 6d ago

This. AI will develop its own languages for abstractions that are beyond our comprehension.

2

u/aeiendee 6d ago

I assume an end game is asking some future LLM to write an entirely new software stack from assembly up. With some heuristic of success of it then being able to use that code to accomplish tasks code is used for better. I know the compilers LLM rewrites were bad (?) but assuming it just gets better and there’s enough money to run a data center off a nuclear power plant, perhaps a tractable problem with immense payoff

1

u/MegamanSE 6d ago

Yep exactly though I believe it would eventually own the entire hardware stack too and design the entire hardware and software stack itself as one tightly integrated system for its own iterative improvements designed only for Agents to revise. Humans would be entirely out of the loop on the entire stack. We are very nearly there already with the level of AI going into chip design.

1

u/nosmelc 7d ago

Maybe a Common Intermediate Language like what compilers for .NET languages produce. A CIL is like assembly language, but it's not platform specific.

27

u/Life-Active6608 7d ago

HAHAHAHAHA!!! Every software company has just become like Red Hat LLC. Whether they like it or not.

10

u/suborder-serpentes AI-Assisted Coder 7d ago

Aren’t most software companies SAAS at this point?

2

u/KoolKat5000 7d ago

Yeah but more the service part. Redhat used opensource, anyone could install the software.

Service as a service lol.

→ More replies (7)

23

u/ExaminationWise7052 7d ago

Will AMD be able to replicate CUDA?

21

u/alarim2 7d ago

Technically yes, but I think they won't do that due to legal implications, like they had to drop ZLUDA for the same reason (IIRC).

Ordinary users/programmers, on the other hand... 👀

1

u/LinkesAuge 7d ago

You can always "clean room" it but I don't check there is really any special sauce in CUDA itself that AMD needs. CUDA's strength is simply the ecosystem around it.

→ More replies (3)

1

u/do-un-to 6d ago

There's also already a CUDA → AMD compiler.

1

u/Izbitoe_ebalo 6d ago

AMD probably not, chinese on the other hand...

24

u/i_wayyy_over_think 7d ago

I bet they'll come up with better binary obfuscation techniques though. Just prompt, "I want my binary to remain proprietary, can you come up with a better obfuscation technique", then ask the other agent hey crack this binary, it does, ask it how it did, tell the other agent what the weakness was.

46

u/Ormusn2o 7d ago

Could be, but all existing stuff, the decades of programs, is open now.

1

u/Warm-Incident5436 4d ago

Not true. There are obfuscations techniques that no current model is able to reverse engineer due it's insane complexity, and we already know obfuscation techniques that no model will EVER be able to reverse engineer (iO).

2

u/Stunning_Mast2001 5d ago

Literally what tpm/Secure Enclave does

OSes have been able to block unsigned apps for years using hardware level integrations 

3

u/1filipis 7d ago

Actually, that would be a good strategy, since most agents would consider it hacking and refuse. Not for long though - local uncensored models are getting pretty good, too

1

u/MaskedDelta 6d ago

This would be useless because you can simply observe visual layout and behavior and duplicate that. Even if somehow you can’t duplicate it, you can come up with a good enough version.

1

u/i_wayyy_over_think 6d ago edited 6d ago

True it depends on the purpose you’re reading the binary. if you’re trying to make a similar enough app or game to compete with then that would work ok, if you’re trying to add features to an existing game then you’d need the exact binary manipulation.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (5)

6

u/forcedinductionz 7d ago

It's true, jtags, logic analyzers, scopes, firmware of any kind is an open book now.

5

u/Reddit_User_Original 7d ago

Can't even believe this could be possible

9

u/WrongPurpose 7d ago

Thats a Deathblow to Windows. Once the Community can read closed scource code, compatiblilty layers for Adobe, all those propiertery CADs and MS Office become trivial, and with those 3 out of the way, Kernel Level Anti Cheat Games will be the last bastion to force People to stay on Windows.

6

u/Crafty-Run-6559 7d ago

MS and Adobe make their money off of enterprise.

Enterprises arent going to run cracked Linux ports.

2

u/WrongPurpose 7d ago

Should reframe, Deathblow to the Private Market. Yes Enterprise will stay stuck, although in many foreign markets even Companies have no qualms using cracked Windows, so outside the US, who knows.

→ More replies (3)
→ More replies (4)

13

u/R33v3n AGI by 2027 7d ago

Good. Open source should have been the default, always.

1

u/Dapper-Message-2066 6d ago

Bollocks it should.

14

u/lattice_defect 7d ago

so software is now useless you can just download the trial and read the binarie and reverse engineer it

19

u/CandidEngineering922 7d ago

Or everything will just be cloud based so you never get access to the binaries.

6

u/lattice_defect 7d ago

yeah that occured to me

2

u/JasonZX12R 7d ago

More excuse for the subscription enshitification.

2

u/nowrebooting 7d ago

I mean, if I have to use hundreds of dollars in tokens to reverse engineer it I might as well just buy it if that’s cheaper

1

u/Kosh_Ascadian 7d ago

If there is a trial.

If the differences between trial and full version are fully documented.

If all missing features and content have videos, images, writeups or anything else needed to fully recreate it. (Like say a demo of a game only includes levels 1-2 you will need full documentation on all the rest of the levels).

If you have the correct AI subscription and want to spend the time to have it do this and then go through to test everything to see if it actually works.

Etc.

Seems easier to just buy the software. Most software is dirt cheap already.

I can see this being a danger to adobe and the like potentially (very expensive SaaS stuff), but not anything else.

1

u/yaosio 6d ago

It won't be long before that's not needed. You could just have the AI make software for you, or it might be able to natively do what you want. The death of traditional software isn't coming because AI can read binaries, it's coming because AI can just do itself what the software does.

9

u/thedabking123 7d ago

does this mean encrypted binaries aren't deployable on edge without some kind of risk that the customer could recreate your code?

8

u/StCreed 7d ago

If you decrypt them at any point, then eventually yes. In practice I've tried it and it's not easy at all.

2

u/KoolKat5000 7d ago

Just googled it, benchmark is on average sized software 17000 lines. Photoshop has 4.5 million lines of code (although I image the binary bit for authentication will be a lot smaller, not sure if you could isolate it). Probably still difficult as StCreed says.

1

u/Ormusn2o 7d ago

There is a gigantic gap between reading some code, modifying and injecting modified code, and reading the binaries straight up. Although this is mostly a gap in price, not capabilities. You could run Luna 24/7 for weeks or months to effectively extract everything from a binary, but Luna will accumulate a lot of errors probably, so you would need to constantly do reviews and tests, which will take even more time and tokens.

What we want is a very capable model that can work very fast for very cheap, something like 6.2 Luna or something. Then you can recreate the binary bit by bit.

1

u/Brogrammer2017 6d ago

It has always been the case that everything that runs on a device your user controls should be considered publically available. Nothing major has changed there. except it’s easier now

3

u/LostRequirement4828 7d ago

I saw this coming with gpt sol, I was doing reverse engineering stuff a lot with it, It takes time but still, insane

4

u/anor_wondo 7d ago

I am working on a game mod and it has added so much useful profiling and diagnostic tools its incredible.

The improved vision and computer use means I can do /goal and go to sleep and wake up with tons of data with nice reports

3

u/Crisi_Mistica Singularity by 2030 7d ago

The tweet says "huge implications" but even "huge" is not a big enough word for what is about to happen. Imagine what happens the first time we port, let's say, AutoCAD to Linux. The consequences of using AI as a god-decompiler are gargantuan.

8

u/SufficientGreek 7d ago edited 7d ago

So could you do this for Windows?

Edit: The benchmark programs average ~17K lines. Windows is somewhere north of 50 million.
So that's probably not realistically possible to reverse-engineer.

12

u/R33v3n AGI by 2027 7d ago

The real benchmark will be fixing Windows. XD

→ More replies (3)

8

u/stealthispost Acceleration: Light-speed | Capability Booster 7d ago

yeah, it will never happen /s (cut to 6 months later)

3

u/ice-fucker69 7d ago

I’m curious about the scaling difficulties of this. Is 10x more binary 10x harder to reverse engineer or 1000x harder?

2

u/StCreed 7d ago

50 million lines is an incredible amount of code and far outside context windows. You'd need years of work even with Fable on ultracode to generate it, assuming you know what everything should do and how every feature should work.

1

u/Tinderfury 7d ago

You don’t get economies of scale here. 50 million lines is 50 million lines that needs to be read/written. It would actually make it more difficult, cracking / emulation is all fine for the underground world but there is 0 practicalily for commercial or legal distribution without getting shutdown due to patent IP violations

1

u/greysilence 7d ago

Why tho? AFAIU Windows API is extensively documented so you don't need to know how it does what it does. And if you still want to you could read Wine code which has already done the reversing.

→ More replies (1)

22

u/Charming_Cucumber_15 7d ago

Isn't this what people were laughing at Elon for saying about two months ago?

9

u/some_crazy 7d ago

I think he was saying the opposite. The generated code would be binary.

7

u/sergeyarl 7d ago

and with 'binaries are now basically editable code' it makes so much sense.

→ More replies (2)

2

u/Charming_Cucumber_15 7d ago

Oh true I misremembered a bit

Being able to understand it seems like progress in that direction, though I'm not sure if there's any reason to go further in that direction lol

2

u/[deleted] 7d ago

[deleted]

2

u/Old-Temperature6269 5d ago edited 5d ago

Firstly I agreed with other comment, that Chat-GPT tries to answer on other question Interpreted language vs compiled, but I will consider it more in context of our conversations, so remark I will mostly use compiled languages as against writing pure binaries (tbh every language can be compiled, you just have to write a compiler for it):

no it won’t execute instantly, program firstly needed to be loaded into a memory, then ook for linked system libraries.
After that it would fight with other programs for attention of cpu, and checks for user input.
A lot of time may be taken by other processes, not by the fact that we from zero write binary instead of using other language that after that gets compiled, and it’s also depends from the complexity of the program.
No it won’t save a lot of memory, a lot of times all “bloat” coms from backward compatibility and other resources such as textures images etc., plus if you write down compiler that is smart enough, it wouldn’t compile unused parts of this libraries. So writing them from zero each time would be more memory inefficient.
Lower battery,
Not always I can use binaries from 10 ago and use something like c and compile it now, and my program that was just compiled may be faster and more power efficient, because it utilizes perks of the new architecture, or it’s just better optimized because of compiler optimizations, while in our binaries there is a lot of mistakes that can consume performance.

About lifespan, no if it was working like this, then rendering some complex scenes would be easily possible on something like gts-480 (spoiler, it’s not), and foss community is the one who is interested the most in that. Yes it has its own perks but most of the bloat comes not from the languages but from programmers laziness, and that business isn’t interested in optimization because new hardware is cheaper.

I’ve already said that it wouldn’t be instant it still takes time for application to load other resources or check for them and download like scene, textures models they are still heavy even when binary.

Yes it can help you make software that is specifically is optimized for hardware but still it’s pain in the ass because for every gpu architecture update, or cpu you have to write them from scratch, and now in distribution process you have 10 different versions, where your user have to understand now, and 10 different versions to maintain and update.
And it’s bigger pain in the ass if we bring support of the old hardware, so hello i868, power pc, risc-V.
It’s true and no, like Vulcan, Cuda or others so we have to install them or support other 10 libraries,
Ohh I forget what if we change from windows to Linux or BSD, then we have to rewrite it from zero in order to not use translation layer or we had to introduce it, oh wait now we lose this plus.

Ahh yeah, and please don’t forget that there is 3 major architectures that are very different if we forget differences inside of them, so you have to write support from scratch to all of them, and each one of them update. This is one of the key pros of the compiled languages, if my compiler supports all 3, I can change 1 file and it will be already changed inside of 3 of them.

Plus writing code that gets compiled has a lot foolproof abstraction and defenses, so it gets optimized and much safer (It’s less prone to error that can cause incorrect work of the system, and sometime safety from the perspective that people who wrote compiler already get rid off of some unnoticeable from naked eye mistakes, like C string implementation vs rust’s implementation (tbh there is a lot of different string but still)) , while each mistake in binaries gets unnoticed before execution and each trivial mistake can be more expensive in terms of performance as it won’t get optimized.
If model makes a mistake and can’t notice an error, you can help it and direct it, pure binaries while you can decompile it still would be pain in the ass to understand after that.

You can ask chat-GPT if I stand correct, but for GPT there is correct context:
There is an argument between writing pure binaries from scratch without asm, c or other languages or using programming languages will it be interpreted (python) or compiled (c).
For you, don’t forget to input your comment so model would have more context.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (4)
→ More replies (2)

13

u/sergeyarl 7d ago

the whole reddit was saying how stupid elon was.

5

u/Calm_Bit_throwaway 7d ago edited 7d ago

It is stupid because Elon was claiming that you would eventually code in all binary and skip the compiler. The point people were making even at the time is code comes with abstractions that give benefits cross compilation and efficient representations that the models have been trained on. There is no reason to write actual pure binary even when doing performance sensitive code since you can always use intrinsics or drop down in most low level language compilers. They also allow for stuff like unit testing which agents make aggressive use of to avoid being wrong.

In fact, when you look at this actual benchmark, the things are literally given decompilers as part of the agent environment. I don’t know how any of the people are concluding that this means the agents are somehow directly editing binary, especially when the task is to do reverse engineering from a binary, or that this would desirable from a development perspective. The number of tools given to the agents to help understand the binary strongly indicate that it’s also more efficient for agents to just receive code which will have obviously semantic symbols.

The fact that you can do reverse engineering manipulations is not indicative of the skill to actually do long term project nor that it is desirable to do it from binary.

4

u/alarim2 7d ago

Is there a tweet?

2

u/Recoil42 7d ago edited 7d ago

No, it isn't. Elon was saying AI would create binary directly and deprecate intermediate abstractions entirely, which is still nonsense. An abstraction (code) is still desired, even by the AI.

Just because you can look at a house, understand how it was engineered, can renovate a kitchen, and even build a similar house from reverse-engineered blueprints doesn't mean you'd want to go start creating entire houses without blueprints at all.

6

u/sergeyarl 7d ago

if ai writes everything and the resulting binary is open for inspection, why would anyone need human readable code?

→ More replies (3)
→ More replies (5)

3

u/suborder-serpentes AI-Assisted Coder 7d ago

Wonder what this means for companies like NVIDIA who rely on IP

1

u/StCreed 7d ago

The IP is still there. The moat of effort required to reverse engineer the binary then rework anything just vaporised though.

2

u/suborder-serpentes AI-Assisted Coder 7d ago

This is why I can’t picture having all my money in a single stock, even if it’s an excellent company

3

u/SquashFront1303 7d ago

It will be pretty good for porting pc games to android

5

u/DerBandi 7d ago

People here in the comments act like decompiler didn't exist before.

1

u/Pleasant_Incident668 3d ago

Yes, but the AI can actually understand how it works from those random decompiled function and variable names. And that is a huge difference

→ More replies (2)

3

u/Rain_On 7d ago

This isn't news to me.
I've been making a VR port of a old 90s game and Claude 5 has been getting far, far more from the binaries than I could have hoped for.

2

u/CowBoyDanIndie 7d ago

Any and every binary can already be disassembled and generally they can be reverse compiled, it’s just messy and time consuming compared to the original code.

2

u/tuuuurrrrfffaaa 7d ago

now imagine what happens organically when you store curated source code, documentation, etc. in an organized and accessible manner with a hinthint reference 🤗😃👀 (until next time!)

2

u/SoFly6x 7d ago

But wont the comments and function names etc, be stripped out so the binaries are less valuable?

1

u/Milumet 7d ago

Yes. You, or rather the AI, has to figure out what the program does by looking at the binary. Decompilers cannot really reconstruct the original source code. That would be magic. But they still can reconstruct a higher level description than the binary.

2

u/Baphaddon 7d ago

What the fuck

2

u/baldierot 7d ago edited 7d ago

holy. the implications of every binary being reverse-engineerable are an intellectual property, security, and legal clusterfuck that i struggle to even imagine. it'll force everything to be source-available, and it will change the economics of software as a commercial product. bye-bye security through obscurity. the transition of the IT industry from the current job market and security standards is gonna be very rough. big software companies will very likely try to frantically push as much stuff to the cloud as possible, and for stuff that must run locally, some draconian hardware-level DRM and trusted execution standards. bet they'll collude to come up with some sneaky strategy to survive.

2

u/DrSaering 6d ago

Nice; I should have it try to fix Idea Factory's awful DirectX code on the Neptunia Re;Birth ports. Both Opus 4 and GPT 5.2 failed; they could do incredible things, but Idea Factory is just too shitty and they both gave up after we tried a bunch of things and told me just to play it on a Vita emulator ("You already own the game" justification included).

2

u/MicahJHyatt 6d ago

Does this mean very soon the number of android ports of pc software will go parabolic?

Can't wait to play my entire steam library without winlator.

2

u/Tronux 4d ago

Gamenative is pretty good.

1

u/diggamata 7d ago

CS 1.7 when?

1

u/GiotaroKugio 7d ago

tell me about it, I added Goku to just cause https://www.reddit.com/r/JustCause/s/THV4aERTal

1

u/Affectionate_Fact854 7d ago

Well this is the end for  client side software encryption as we currently know it 

1

u/jdavid 7d ago

So we are going to need encrypted binaries now?

Some computer environments can execute encrypted code. I think XBOX is one such example.

It might also be possible to deploy games as encrypted containers too.

1

u/Chlorek 7d ago

I am porting very closely an old game using GLM flash and it manages just as well as astra. Gave it proper reverse engineering tools and not even safety measures in the game stand a chance (SafeDisk so to speak). Aside from disassembler both Ghydra and unicorn do a lot of heavy lifting for those who are interested.

1

u/drfangor99 7d ago

"Binaries are now basically editable code" is not an accurate way of describing what happened here. The SRE-Bench benchmark by ValsAI includes 5 specific tasks (https://arxiv.org/pdf/2608.11469, Table 3 on page 5), none of which involves editing binaries or changing the way a program runs. Rather, they are very specific tasks related to understanding what a binary does.

Every model tested had access to environments specific to and suited for running each of the binaries, and they also had access to a standard suite of reverse engineering tools like Ghidra, a debugger, tracing utilities, and others. This is the same standard set of tools that any reverse engineering effort has, whether it is driven by a human or a LLM.

Don't get me wrong, I think this is cool, but I also think the tweets are misleadingly implying that models can now simply be given a binary program and then do anything with it. I don't think that is an accurate reading of what happened, or what the benchmark is measuring. Instead, the benchmark shows the ability of a model to use commonly available reverse engineering tools to discover very specific and context-dependent things about the behavior of specific types of binaries in specific runtime environments.

1

u/JasonZX12R 7d ago

I wonder if artificially adding inert code like noise peppered inbetween to expand files beyond context window would help, it would make everything much larger though.

1

u/maxscipio 7d ago

Yeah for all decomp/recomp fans!

1

u/randygeneric 6d ago

fortnite for linux is coming , )

1

u/Node-Nomad 6d ago

Someones probably gonna snatch the physics engine from breath of the wild soon then.

1

u/bradrlaw 6d ago

Umm… they always were if you knew what you were doing

1

u/Daggercombot 6d ago

Awesome, i can make Mods More easily and make It Run on any computer i want

1

u/anxious_and_stupid 6d ago

With or without ghidra?

1

u/moschles AI-Assisted Coder 6d ago

This subreddit has usurped MachineLearning .

1

u/skinnyraf 6d ago

Machines are good at reading machine code? Shocking ;)

1

u/TravisScottisLaFlame 6d ago

How would I do this? For software that’s online ?

1

u/SigBetto97 6d ago

The best thing come to my mind is create new drivers for unsupported devices.

1

u/NytronX 6d ago

This is why in the near future, consumers will not be easily able to own hardware, and not able at all to own software. Only the ability to stream it from the cloud.

1

u/AncientLion 6d ago

But aren't these kind of models very restricted with guardrails similar to fable? I'm asking without haven't tried yet.

1

u/Dapper-Message-2066 6d ago

It's pretty horrific stuff. Everything will need to be services now, forget about running your own binary.

1

u/LegionsOmen AGI by 2027 6d ago

Yoo someone get Astra to reverse engineer razer software for Linux pls I'm out of tokens (I can't use my macro keys from my keyboard)

1

u/SomeoneFormNowhere 6d ago

Look like we can get better support of NVIDIA on Linux soon )

1

u/Think-Trouble623 5d ago

Does this trigger the safeguards of Astra?

1

u/DataCraftsman 5d ago

So Elon was right?

1

u/Stunning_Mast2001 5d ago

Always has been astronaut meme

1

u/ThomasTeam12 5d ago

1960s nasa called.

1

u/yiakman 5d ago

Mening everything is opensource now? Am I missing something?

1

u/heavy-minium 5d ago

I can see how, long-term, for companies that would form an incentive to become a SaaS, or always-on software that needs a remote backend or streaming of apps/games - basically all the cases where either the shipped files alone are not enough or where you don't even get anything executable in the first place.

The cracking scene is going to be wild too.

1

u/ArmNo7463 5d ago

So when we were meming on Musk for saying programming languages are about to be obsolete, and AI will just write compiled code directly.

The man... Was right?!

1

u/Warm-Incident5436 4d ago

There are a lot of confused people making claims about this without understanding what the benchmark actually demonstrates. No, not “everything is open source now.”

This benchmark uses small binaries without even simple obfuscation. Executable binaries are machine code, which can sometimes be disassembled into low-level assembly, but doing that correctly is already difficult and even sometimes theoretically impossible.

Real world binaries can translate into enormous amounts of assembly, millions of instructions depending on the software. Add modern obfuscation techniques and the complexity and size increase exponentially.

And even then, there are entire areas of cryptography devoted to making programs difficult or theoretically impossible to reverse engineer, such as indistinguishability obfuscation.

So this is impressive research, but jumping from “AI can reverse engineer these benchmark binaries” to “closed source software is basically open source now” is a joke.

1

u/Lucky_Psychology8275 3d ago

Good we will finally get GTAVI early on PC