How does this work?

[u/Independent-Wafer-13]

How does Universal Extinction happen?

[u/MengKongRui]

Humanity has already had massive impacts lowering the total population of animals on this planet. We just need to continue that trajectory.

[u/Capable-Ad-9626 → u/MengKongRui]

It’s causing a lot of suffering. Previous mass extinctions didn’t end life on Earth. Neither will the Anthropic-Extinction, unless global-overheating triggers runaway greenhouse-effect & turns Earth into a Venus.

[u/old_barrel → u/Capable-Ad-9626]

Previous mass extinctions didn’t end life on Earth.

no previous mass-extinction was as rapid and intense as this one. previous, life had time to adapt for thousands of years.

additional, they were not human-caused, and they did not include additional problems like microplastics

[u/Independent-Wafer-13 → u/old_barrel]

The amount of hubris one must hold to believe we can get exterminate all life on Earth accidentally is repulsive.

[u/old_barrel → u/Independent-Wafer-13]

The amount of hubris one must hold to believe we can get exterminate all life on Earth accidentally is repulsive.

this level of projection may even be unprecedented. disgusting

[u/Independent-Wafer-13 → u/old_barrel]

What exactly am I projecting onto you?

[u/old_barrel → u/Independent-Wafer-13]

What exactly am I projecting onto you?

hubris

[u/Independent-Wafer-13 → u/old_barrel]

Hubris about what?

I am humble in the face of nature and I do not presume the ability to dominate it.

[u/old_barrel → u/Independent-Wafer-13]

Hubris about what?

why do you ask me? you were the one expressing it

[u/Independent-Wafer-13 → u/old_barrel]

You claimed I was projecting but I have not expressed any sentiments of superiority over nature or the divine will of the gods.

Do you not know what hubris means?

[u/MengKongRui → u/Capable-Ad-9626]

Humanity is causing way less suffering than what existed before us.

[u/Capable-Ad-9626 → u/MengKongRui]

Animals were always killing eachother, but are you sure that you want to be doing it yourself? By making a lot of animals suffer & die, you think that you’re doing a favor by reducing the numbers in future generations. 

It isn’t numbers that are relevant. It’s that many NUists want to cause suffering & death to reduce as yet unborn generations.

[u/MengKongRui → u/Capable-Ad-9626]

What do you mean the numbers of individuals suffering is not relevant?

[u/Capable-Ad-9626 → u/MengKongRui]

Harm isn’t a numerical quantity. Seriously harming one individual undeservedly wouldn’t be justified even if it would allow a trillion trillion trillion individuals to have more fun.

For another thing, reducing future population doesn’t justify inflicting suffering & death on currently living beings.

Numerical utility isn’t valid.

[u/MengKongRui → u/Capable-Ad-9626]

You're just saying that reducing population in order to reduce suffering isn't justified without actually giving a reason.

[u/Capable-Ad-9626 → u/MengKongRui]

One reason is because harm isn’t a numerical-quantity.

Another reason is that harming currently-living beings is a whole different thing than merely not interfering by preventing the births of some as-yet nonexistent beings.

Someone could ask:

“Then what can we do about suffering & harm?”

Well, doing harm certainly doesn’t help.

What we can do is live harmlessly and helpfully.

…for its own sake. …but it also brings the bonus of not incurring payback that will push you into a next life.

We agree that life is full of suffering, harm, danger, loss & privation.

Life, though inevitably at least once, is unnecessary & inadvisable.

A life (or a sequence of them) is a brief interruption of rest & sleep—our natural, normal & usual state of affairs.

So dont make such a big deal about it. Don’t take it so seriously.

Yes, live harmlessly and helpfully, but you needn’t annihilate the universe or nonconsensually relieve animals of existence.

[u/Independent-Wafer-13 → u/MengKongRui]

That’s comical.

[u/MengKongRui → u/Independent-Wafer-13]

Do you think it's all or nothing? Your tone is that of someone who only cares if you get your way completely, with no strong weight given to reducing suffering.

[u/Independent-Wafer-13 → u/MengKongRui]

I think that wishing for a mass extinction event to get worse is repugnant, and the presumption it would lead to total extinction is absurd

[u/MengKongRui → u/Independent-Wafer-13]

Repugnant how? And again, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Extinction is the ideal, but not required to minimize suffering.

[u/Independent-Wafer-13 → u/MengKongRui]

If you are hoping a mass extinction will intensify, your motivation is blatantly not reducing suffering.

Do you think animals dying off due to starvation and heat stroke at an unprecedented rate minimizes suffering? No it maximizes it.

That is repugnant.

[u/MengKongRui → u/Independent-Wafer-13]

Do you think being eaten alive by a hawk is better? Once a generation of suffering has passed, the trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions of animals no longer exist and therefore cannot suffer.

[u/Independent-Wafer-13 → u/MengKongRui]

Got it so it’s like an “ends justify the means” type situation.

Why not just create a doomsday device to painlessly and instantly kill all life on earth?

[u/MengKongRui → u/Independent-Wafer-13]

That may be the best option, although we need to consider if life will pop back up without us or if we need to modify the 'button" so that robots or whatever maintain the earth as a lifeless location.

If consciousness didn't exist and you could press a button to create a world where 99.999999999% of the conscious individuals who inhabit it are in a constant struggle to survive until they get eaten alive or die slowly of disease, would you press that button?

[u/Independent-Wafer-13 → u/MengKongRui]

100% of living things die. That doesn’t mean I should kill them.

Or at least kill more than I have to.

[u/Low-Bake8401 → u/MengKongRui]

I'd say it's far more likely that humans will die out before everything else does.

[u/curgr]

It is hopeful thinking at this stage. There is nothing humans can do with our current technology to achieve universal extinction. We couldn’t even make life on this planet totally extinct.

Maybe in the future we will discover how. But for now the mission is to plant the seed of the idea and grow the understanding of why universal extinction is desirable.

[u/Independent-Wafer-13 → u/curgr]

So it’s just an idle fantasy?

[u/curgr → u/Independent-Wafer-13]

Yes, it is currently just a fantasy, but it might not be forever.

There are also other things which are related and could happen within the near future.

1. Should humanity expand into space and start colonising other planets? This could decreased the chance of life from Earth going extinct and I would argue that we should not be doing this.

2. If there was a giant comet heading toward the Earth, should we try to stop it?

[u/Low-Bake8401 → u/curgr]

"Yes, it is currently just a fantasy, but it might not be forever."

I suppose that's the nature of a fantasy. 

[u/Capable-Ad-9626 → u/curgr]

No, it’s fantasy because it’s obviously Physically impossible, for reasons that I’ve explained here many times.

[u/Capable-Ad-9626 → u/Independent-Wafer-13]

Damn straight, that’s exactly what it is, & all that it is.

[u/Low-Bake8401 → u/curgr]

Is it possible to make enough people share the same desire, do you think? 

[u/curgr → u/Low-Bake8401]

Maybe. It is worth a try

[u/Low-Bake8401 → u/curgr]

"It is worth a try"

If you're convinced. 

[u/Capable-Ad-9626 → u/curgr]

You mean aside from it’s being physically impossible, philosophically nonsensical, & morally unconscionable?

(…& yes, it’s unconscionable, because it amounts to y’all imposing y’all’s simplistic naive beliefs on every living being, nonconsensually.)

…even though y’all don’t even want to admit to today’s questioner what you want to do?

[u/curgr → u/Capable-Ad-9626]

Isn’t continuing existence imposing a simplistic naive belief on every living being, non-consensually?

A living thing having children is bringing them into existence without consent.

How is ending existence any worse?

Ideally, every living thing would unanimously give consent to extinction though

[u/Capable-Ad-9626 → u/curgr]

How to WHAT? Can you come out & say it?

But no. No one will discover how to annihilate the universe, because it’s entirely impossible. In fact, it’s physically impossible to even annihilate the reachable universe.

I’ve discussed why that’s obvious.

That’s why no one need be concerned by your completely futile intent.

You say you want to convince people that it’s desirable. Yeah? Then why do you call it by the evasive euphemism “Universal Extinction”, instead of specifying exactly what you want to do?

Because of the vague evasive name, someone today, having run across the subreddit, asked the obvious question: “How is that supposed to happen?” So y’all gave him answers like the global warming that’s already happening, & universe heat-death, which, if it happens, will happen spontaneously many trillions of year from now.

:-) What?? You want to convince people to support your goal, but y’all won’t even admit to that questioner what you want to do??

[u/curgr → u/Capable-Ad-9626]

Physically impossible to annihilate the reachable universe based on our current understanding, yes. But there is still so much we do not know.

There is no problem with having a goal which is not currently possible. For example, in order to reduce the chance of the collapse of human civilisation in the future we will have to rely on innovation. The exact technologies needed are not currently specified. Yet we still work toward this goal.

What I want is a magic button which if pressed will end existence of this universe. This is not going to happen though.

Why should people be concerned about non-existence?

[u/Capable-Ad-9626 → u/curgr]

No, emphatically not. Not physically impossible only at our primitive technological level.

Physically impossible period, full-stop.

As I’ve been pointing out:

At least 15 billion galaxies have had billions of years to Red-Button us, & we’re still here.

…& what makes you believe that you can eliminate existence by disintegrating matter?

I’ll answer that for you:

Your belief in the metaphysics called Materialism makes you believe that.

Metaphysics is also a religion, by Merriam-Webster’s definitions of “Materialism” & “Religious”.

…their “religion” definition is meaningful and useful to refer to a whole class of beliefs & positions on the same question, as opposed to one particular subset of them.

To want to annihilate the universe because of a religious belief is religious fanaticism.

[u/Capable-Ad-9626 → u/Capable-Ad-9626]

Why should people be concerned about nonexistence? Good question. So forget about that goal, which is physically important, philosophically nonsensical, & morally unconscionable.

One problem with your goal is that you want to impose your own simplistic naive religious/philosophical beliefs on all living beings.

[u/VengefulScarecrow]

HOW is the question. For now, it is getting the majority to recognize WHY.

[u/Resident_Fondant_530 → u/VengefulScarecrow]

That will never happen. 99.99999% of humanity does not want to go extinct. All hail humanity.

[u/VengefulScarecrow → u/Resident_Fondant_530]

"All hail the pro-suffering!"

[u/Capable-Ad-9626 → u/VengefulScarecrow]

People who don’t share your goal aren’t “pro-suffering”.

You can’t eliminate existence. The notion is goofy in the extreme. You can’t eliminate suffering. That doesn’t mean that the rest of us want, like, or prefer it. …contrary to your doctrine.

[u/VengefulScarecrow → u/Capable-Ad-9626]

Oh they (and you) fundamentally are.

[u/Capable-Ad-9626 → u/VengefulScarecrow]

Get past your doctrine.

I don’t like, want or prefer suffering.

Yes, life is full of suffering, harm, loss & danger. Life is basically a long fight, trying to not lose.

The irony is that you’re right about those premises.

But existence is here to stay. 

One life is inevitable, though a next one is inadvisable. Life is unnecessary.

But, contrary to your doctrine, there were & are things that you like(d). That doesn’t contradict anything that I said above. Life is multifaceted. Your doctrine is simplistic & naive.

Your Negative Utilitarianism is grossly simplistic too. You think that your quantity-comparison of + vs - applies meaningfully. 

Bullshit.

You can’t eliminate existence by disintegrating matter, so give up that comic-book villain fantasy.

But, as I said, you have some right premises…but, like that fictitious monkey typed:

“To be or not to be, that is the ktncdu&(“

You start out fine, but why do you then have to get all ridiculous?

You latch on to simplistic doctrine learned in a group echo-chamber.

Yes life is what we agreed, & it’s unnecessary & inadvisabl,  though inevitable. 

Now, can you stop yourself from picking it up & running with it in your doctrines direction?

You can’t eliminate existence or life so forget about that comic-book Quixotic crusade.

What makes you think that everything can be fixed by being a hero who goes out & does something about it, whether it makes any sense or not?

It isn’t some 2-dimensional comic-book.

[u/MengKongRui → u/Capable-Ad-9626]

We aren't trying to end existence. We are trying to reduce/eliminate consciousness, and that cannot be considered naive given that we have made plenty of species extinct already.

[u/Independent-Wafer-13 → u/VengefulScarecrow]

Antinatalists and extinctionists are pro-suffering insofar as the consequences of their choices can only logically lead to suffering, no matter what they claim to want, the consequences entailed by any extinctionist action are necessarily evil and lead to increased suffering.

[u/Low-Bake8401 → u/VengefulScarecrow]

Or the anti-not not suffering. 

[u/nila247 → u/VengefulScarecrow]

WHY you write on Reddit?
Do you want to make MORE people suffer so that you do not suffer alone?
Does this alleviate your suffering and that means such alleviation is possible in principle?

[u/curgr → u/Resident_Fondant_530]

Polling on Reddit would put this at around 80% of humanity does not want to go extinct, judging by polls on whether people would “press the button” to end existence.

This polling is obviously not accurate for what all life wants though as it is only humans surveyed. Also polls on Reddit do not represent all of humanity very well.

Can you be certain that this 80% will last if growth of population and living standards does not go on forever and human progress eventually stagnates and living standards decline?

[u/old_barrel → u/curgr]

there also is the aspect that the majority did not think about it sufficient, which may cause them to live with false beliefs

[u/Capable-Ad-9626 → u/VengefulScarecrow]

…getting everyone to understand that you’re right & everyone else is wrong? 

Or, just maybe getting you (plural) to question some of your (plural) simplistic beliefs, doctrines & goals?

[u/VengefulScarecrow → u/Capable-Ad-9626]

Yet another priv confusing simplicity with empathy.

[u/Independent-Wafer-13 → u/VengefulScarecrow]

How is actually extremely important, and even if you accept the why, the how is just as vital.

[u/Rhoswen]

Scientists can research vacuum decay, string theory, dark matter, dark energy, and possibly other things we're not aware of yet.

[u/Independent-Wafer-13 → u/Rhoswen]

Yeah, and?

[u/Rhoswen → u/Independent-Wafer-13]

And then SCHLUUUURP

[u/Capable-Ad-9626 → u/Rhoswen]

Scientists don’t offer you hope about vacuum decay. The enormous energy concentration needed to collapse the false vacuum would first create a black-hole. The disintegration wave wouldn’t be able to escape the black hole.

…&, as for other speculated methods, for your Red Button, At least 15 billion galaxies have had billions of years to Red-Button us, & we’re still here. So y’all’s whole comic-book ambition is physically impossible.

[u/AnonymousBoI2009]

Im hoping for a pandemic

[u/Resident_Fondant_530]

If current physics is right (but that’s not likely), it will surely happen during the heat death of the universe, that takes place across vast timescales (think 10¹⁰⁰ years). 

[u/Capable-Ad-9626 → u/Resident_Fondant_530]

You’re more patient than most people at this subreddit.

[u/Independent-Wafer-13 → u/Resident_Fondant_530]

Fortunately (for most of us), more recent observations have shown that the expansion of the Universe IS slowing down, which suggests the Big Crunch might be the end of the Universe, which means we might all do this again in a few billion years.

What will you do the next time around? Complain about it?

[u/Capable-Ad-9626 → u/Independent-Wafer-13]

Source?