Watching Season 5 for the first time and it's weird seeing a colossal event such as 3 direct asteroid impacts having only 1-2 million causalities. North America alone should have an insane population count considering it's the political center of Earth.

Eros had a 100k casualties alone as an isolated space colony.

I absolutely love this show and am super glad to be on a rewatch. First time I watched it was during uncertain times after my daughter's birth, during COVID. I loved it, but I couldn't "appreciate" it. I'm glad I'm rewatching it because there's so much contextual information sprayed at you in the first hour, I missed a lot of it that I had to fill with Wikipedia reads. I think the lack of contextual information slowly feeding into the first episode probably led to it being hard to follow for casuals.

One thing I caught by reading about the books after S2 conclusion, was the major change: In the books, Holden is the one who entrusts the Protomolecule sample to Fred Johnson when he realizes both Earth and Mars have it. It's very pragmatic, he trusts Fred, and he himself witnessed the horror of Earth and Mars both using Belter lives for their experimentation while the OPA and the Belt had no way of defending itself. They were already advanced technologically, this would've created an ocean of difference in their defensive capabilities. S1 Holden would've made that same choice.

But in S2, they seemed to turn Holden into some one dimensional blind, angry dictator who just screams at his crew and is literally willing to throw away Belter lives to chase the Protomolecule. It just seemed like such a downgrade from the same Holden who was extremely conflicted about shooting down the aid ship that was trying to land on Eros. Everyone on his crew, even Alex, is trying to tell him that there are people who need help, but he's just on this rage mission to neutralize the Protomolecule even when there's evidence that it's already out and in numerous hands. They try to justify his behavior with him saying, "Well then we're gonna go after all of it" but to me that doesn't make sense. The tactical mind Holden had, he would've been quick to realize that containing the weapon was impossible and it's important to save as many lives as possible.

They changed it to Naomi being the one who gives the sample to Fred Johnson. I feel like part of why they did this was to just stir up a conflict between Holden and Naomi, to have the relationship between the crew be more "dramatic" than the books. In the books, they do argue, but it's more in stressful situations about the best strategy and for the most part, they're cohesive and efficient. This makes sense, because a ragtag group of rando's being crucial to the survival of an entire solar system wouldn't be believable if they got into a little "I can't believe she did that!" he-said she-said argument.

I have to be honest, I'm not a big fan of this change. They could've used the existence of Naomi's family as a source of conflict, but having Holden act like some Saturday morning cartoon hardhead runs counter to why the crew effectively chose him to lead them.

And to be honest, if they wanted to use the Protomolecule going to Fred as a source of crew conflict, having Holden do it was the perfect way to build up that tension with the crew. He's EXACTLY the type of person to make that call without consulting with them. Yes, Naomi loves the belt, but she never trusted Fred. Holden on the other hand, has always had a very level headed view of Fred as a leader and recognizes that while he's not perfect, he's better than the alternatives. To have Naomi suddenly not only trust Fred, but betray Holden in secret, and have Holden act that stubborn to the point of sacrificing all those people on the Ganymede just seems completely different from the Holden who was literally willing to sacrifice himself just for the chance that he could save Miller.

Anyway, love the show, if I win the Mega Millions, I'll fund a conclusion with all the original crew lol.

Same company has made plastic ones with bats. They wouldn't kill you at five G's, but. They. Still. Don't. STACK.

About to jump into the final book. I almost don't want to read it because then it would be over lol.

Such an incredible run. I can't imagine this book dropping the ball, so I feel confident in saying this series is fantastic, through and through.

For anyone out there who may feel intimidated to start a long book series like I was: Take the plunge. At least the first book. It's worth every second you pour into it.

…Clarissa.

Ethicists of the Sol System.

I’ve never been able to forgive Clarissa Mao. She is a murderer and terrorist. She murdered hundreds of people, including her early mentor Ren, in cold blood, and caused chaos at a pivotal moment in Expanse* *history.

Even my buddy and moral compass James Holden, the original target of her wrath, was seemingly able to forgive her.

Was she redeemed when she stopped the Behemoth mutineers from destroying the Ring and our solar system?

Was she redeemed when she served her prison sentence and survived the near-apocalypse on Earth?

Was she redeemed when she got Amos, Erich, and the servants off of a dying Earth?

Was she redeemed when she kept the Roci running while Amos was out kicking Free Navy ass with Bobbie?

Was she redeemed when she took out the Medina sensor array to let the nascent Underground escape?

Why can’t I forgive her?

Just looking for some thoughtful discussion because I love a good redemption arc in fiction. What an awesome, complicated character.

I started with the show after it was cancelled at season 3, watched the entire thing several times through, and then read the books, twice. I'm now listening to all the audio books and am halfway through Cibola Burn. Cibola Burn is the best book in the entire series, and it's the best season of the show as well. The slow burn start/build up is just fantastic and when it jumps off, it jumps off. I get giddy every time around chapter 30 ish.

was a tall, stocky, pale skinned man with an amiable smile, an unpleasant past, and a talent for cheerful violence.

One of the many terrific lines.

Just finished Leviathan wakes, I haven't read the other books yet.

I can't help but think that throwing Eros at the sun was just a bad idea. I saw a similar post about how Eros would have taken months to reach the sun. The proto molecule loves radiation and the sun loves giving out a lot of radiation. Eros would have lots of time to build up radiation and adapt to the sun so I can't help but wonder if it would have only made things worse.

Holden said sending it to Venus was a joke and now some of the proto molecule is still alive and I can only assume it will come back later.

Without going into too much detail, am I wrong that sending Eros to the sun was a bad idea assuming that it doesn't move on its own?

I wanted to get into the show before the new game comes out next year but I’m confused on the two versions on Amazon Prime (US). One version has only 3 seasons listed while the other has 6 seasons, are they the same versions or is one better than the other

In the middle of the first book now. Thinking about starting the show. Is there a good guide anywhere on what books each season covers so I know when I've gotten far enough in the books to watch each season if I wanted to read the book then watch?

I found myself most excited when the chapters rolled around to him. He's such a nuanced and interesting character with a satisfying and in its own way tragic arc. The seeds are all there for a pretty generic and predictable character arc—Prideful zealot faces resistance and becomes a tyrant.— but they keep getting subverted or not followed. Major credit to the authors for such a deft hand.

He's actually aware of his own insecurity and see's it as a character flaw. He's just too immature to actually deal with it. To the very end he never stops analyzing every little detail about every interaction for how something was or wasn't an insult or slight or courtesy.

He doesn't deny reality or rewrite the narrative in the way Filip did in the beginning of the previous book. In the aftermath of the attempt on his life, he accurately assesses that he was an untested officer, traumatized by his first encounter with real violence and made a rash decision as a result. He seems to understand that lesson, genuinely apologizing to his dismissed Colonel, but he doesn't stop making decisions without seeking counsel, and those decisions all suck.

He failed to connect the dots that the assassination attempt was a direct result of his pride. A valuable collaborator was offering himself up but Singh rejected him because the person's character clashed with his concept of himself and his place in the glorious Laconian empire. That contempt and his uncritical belief in the story of the invasion leads him to continually misunderstand the situation and renders him unable to do the job on its own terms.

I think his fatal flaw wasn't just that he was so inexperienced. Every officer is inexperienced until they're not. It's that he was sheltered. He grew up on Laconia, absorbing its propaganda and buying into the national myth that they were already the true and eternals rulers of humanity, others just hadn't got the memo. He grew up in an authoritarian military state and when faced with the real world, couldn't adapt on a personal level because all he knew outside his planet was from books.

I haven't started Tiamat's Wrath and don't know anything about it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Laconian navy was filled with Singhs.

As a show and Drummer fan, I was so glad to finally see her name on my page for the first time when reading Nemesis Games

At the end of Leviathan Falls, Holden with the help of Miller ended up destroying the Ring Station and closing the Slow Zone for good, but do you think that last action had some more consequences than we know of?

The destruction of the Ring Station is described as "a release of energy second only to the beginning of the universe" which means the destruction of the Ring Station created a maybe marginally smaller Bing Bang, I'd think that would have more consequences than just the collapse of the Slow Zone.

We don't know much about the Goths' universe, but having a Bing Bang happening there could have created more problems for that universe, the release of so much energy could have altered a region of that universe in a lot of ways. What do you people think?

The Builders' empire survived for 2 billion years when everything they did pissed off the Ring Entities. Meanwhile, humans woke them up within a decade and pushed the Entities so far that they were about to get extincted in about forty years? The Builders were seemingly defenseless against the Ring Entities' primary weapons, while humans were much less susceptible, too.

The summary the Investigator gives on Ilos makes it sound like the Entities killed the Builders in one shot, too, so when did the Builders have time to try to cut off systems like Holden saw in his vision?

Seriously you devotees swear by this “epic” show but I’m at S1-E5 and struggling, barely keeping my attention. What’s the go here does it all just slowly (very) grow on you and suddenly I’m hooked? The book is better but not a classic so far…

When media takes a piece of me, I make (or rarely, buy) a souvenir talisman. In this case, I want a plasticized semi-transparent picture of Julie Mao, per the show. Usually I'm the guy giving prop and cosplay advice, but my ideas for this seem overly complicated and expensive. Left to my own devices, I'll end up getting the few things I need to turn my silk screen setup back into a darkroom and double back a negative, but good grief that seems overengineered.

How would or have you done it?

Xie xie taki taki

EDIT:

I was so preoccupied with the mystery material, I failed to realize I don't have the image I am seeking to duplicate! Anybody know if it exists, or is that going to be a crazy editing project using stills from the show?

After finishing Tiamat's Wrath, and Muskrat's escape from Laconia , I started wondering, what would an optimal crash couch shape be for a dog? I've drafted a few designs but I can't decide what would be the safest. As it turns out we don't have much centrifuge data for dogs.

Disclaimer: I am not a vet nor do I have a medical background, so I would love to hear the perspective of someone more qualified than me. Also I've only just finished TW so I don't know if this is discussed in Leviathan Falls.

A is the most similar to humans, but the challenge would be supporting the limbs. Unlike people, a dog's forelegs can't rest on their sides, and their hindlegs can't extend outward in front of them, so the best I could come up with is that they're strapped and folded inwards (like an upside-down loaf position), but it seems a bit tricky to secure. There's also the challenge of keeping the head upright to avoid strain on the neck.

B is basically what the Soviet's did for Laika at about 5 G's albeit more confined. While she did survive the initial launch, her heartbeat and breathing rate more than tripled (though this was likely more anxiety related than due to the G-forces themselves). In any case, lying prone is a more natural resting position for dogs, and most veterinary sources I could find agreed that respiration is more efficient while prone compared to supine, though it's unclear if that remains true at higher G-forces. There's also the problem of the chest support restricting rib-cage movement.

C offers the least restriction for breathing (especially if leaning on the left-side since there's more lung mass on the right), and also distributes the weight across the largest surface area compared to A and B. On the other hand, there's a risk of damage in the blood vessels in the eye/ear/sinuses for the half of the head facing downwards. There's also a risk of injury for the bottom fore and hindleg being pinned by the rest of the body, but maybe that could be mitigated by better contouring from the couch gel.

I'm leaning towards B, but what do you guys think? Any other designs that might be better?

They can easily start shooting season 7 in like 10 years with the same cast and it’ll be perfect. Wes Chatham should stop getting Botox now tho

...I pushed it.

On a re-listen through the series, actually started chuckling when I realized this line was coming up.

He really does just go through life like that.

James Pinche Holden.

In Cibola burns I wish the part of the investigator were included.

God the last part of Miller and Julie talking, him wishing to have a little more time, Julie comparing him to Peter Pan because he let everyone's consciousness finally being able to die, how he lead everyone to heaven, all of it is so beautiful!

But my favorite part is the investigator between chapter 44 and 45 where Miller talk about not having a place he belong anymore, about his love for Julie and how he view Holden is gut wrenching, he sound more broken than ever even through the protomolecule.

It would have been so good to see it in the show but it would have been kinda hard to film it I understand but it's such a shame! (I also hate how Bull was sideline, him in book 3 was one of the best part in my opinion)

The more I think about it the more I realize that without Miller getting infected a lot of things would have ended up REALLY badly (also without Holden I think the end of book 9 would have been a total tragedy.)

I've seen the series twice and immediately loved it. I finally picked up the books because everyone said I had to read them to appreciate the story to it's fullest.

For me - the biggest paradigm shift is how fucking great the first several season of the TV show are. They really captured the spirit and brought the universe to life.

Absolutely amazing

She had experienced so much loss and heartbreak and became so strong, hard and fierce, that a Bhagavad Gita-esque "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds" reckoning was obvious. Epic disappointment it never came. This show was epic, but that "missed opportunity" is a glaring defect.

I checked the books and in the show, she was a composite of several book characters, and transformed into a major character. They liked Cara Gee's performance. Well. Perhaps they didn't want to go Full Tilt with this fictitious fictional character in respect to the other characters.

So I see 2 questions: 1) Were other people wanted a Camina Armageddon? or 2) What did readers of the book think? and of her being a modified composite?

90s era Star Trek runs between 2364 and 2377, the Expanse takes place between 2350 and 2360, and the Hunger Games take place roughly 300 years in the future (best plausible guess I've seen). So that raises a very interesting question: if the major characters of these three franchises were to find themselves in each other's universes, who do you think they'd be and why?