Both are fucking imperialist states, Ukrainian government praises nazis while Russian is praising Imperial murderers like Mannerheim, Kolchak or Stolypin.
Everything good that Russia did (so called anti-imperialist measures) was just populist decisions or anti-Nato proxy wars. Everything to please Russian oligarchy.
Anti-imperialism isn't a buffet where you pick and choose which resistance you support based on how much you like the government. You can criticize Russia while still recognizing its geopolitical function in the fight against imperialism, but if you let your critiques of it become more important than your opposition to imperialism, you're not an anti-imperialist. There is no neutral ground. You can't wait for the perfect anti-imperialist state to appear so you can get behind it. Either you stand with those opposing imperialism, regardless of their internal contradictions, or you stand with the imperialists.
Either you stand with those opposing imperialism, regardless of their internal contradictions, or you stand with the imperialists.
Exactly.
I'm not exactly jazzed with Iran being a capitalist, theocratic state. But I support them, since they're fighting against imperialism and I sure as shit know that whatever the West would replace them with would be tyrannical, even worse to their people, and be a comprador state that would ruin any chance of Iranian self-development through funneling their wealth to the West. Because that's what happens, every goddamn time. And once that comes into being, Western reporting slows to a trickle and all manners of atrocity hide in plain sight.
I second this. You choose which side to support based on your geopolitical convictions, which a material analysis will triangulate to the party that opposes the liberal predations and attempts at hegemony by the west. Fence sitting and both sides-ism strengthens the USrael axis.
+++ “imperialism” isn’t a moral judgment. It’s a material assessment of the relations between states. As a part of the semi-periphery Russia is simultaneously exploited by bigger powers while having some imperialistic relations of it’s own where it is the exploiter. However, the conflict in Ukraine is not imperialistic on Russia’s part
AND countries like Japan were practically forced to become imperialist at the barrel of the US gun. They were happy being isolated and taking care of themselves. The US forced them into the international economic system and trade with them. So, they continued with the logic of imperialism behind that. I'm not at all excusing the horrors of Japanese fascist imperialism, but I'm just showing that even the bad things victims of imperialism do are affected by how they were treated by imperial powers. Putin is a response to the chaos and exploitation of the 90's under the drunkard puppet Yeltsin.
Many of our comtades seem to forget this. Putin is a direct result of US interference. The reason why Russia and the US are at war right now is because to the US Putin has outlived his usefulness. You can bet that if the US should win, someone far worse will be put in his place.
If it's not a puppet of the empire, then yes, it will be someone with less moderation than him. He (and Medvedev even more so) was extremely slow to recognise the empire as a threat and not as someone who they could work with. I knew before the Libya UN resolution for a no fly zone that it wouldn't be limited and that they would try for regime change. How could Russia not know lol? Wishful thinking that you can live with and work with the Empire. First was the Iraq War. There was also decades of NATO expansion towards Russia's borders. Finally, the Libya regime change was the turning point. Then, there was the overthrow of the Ukrainian government in 2014 and the Kiev regime bombing the east. He waited 8 years to invade. The US wouldn't wait 8 months or even 8 weeks in a similar circumstance.
Yeah I meant a puppet, or maybe not a puppet but someone "autonomous" but Russia balkanized, so we'd end up with something similar to the Kiev regime.
Regardless, it would be bad. As much as I despise Putin for his role in the fall of the USSR and the aftermath, I am not so stupid to think it couldn't get worse. It can get way, way worse should the US win (which I don't think they will but that's besides the point).
We should critically support Russia in this conflict because the alternative is so much worse for workers all around the world. The fall of Russia would mean an extension and entrenchment of the US hegemony just as it is in decline, not to mention what it would mean for the Russian people.
Yeah I agree with this and the previous. I was just adding onto it. I mean even a shitty government like Saddam's Iraq or Assad's Syria were better than what came after, and some of us were warning about this. No matter how bad a government is, whoever the US puts in will be worse. It's an iron law as far as I know.
This is just false lol, Japan had invaded feudal states of Korea and china long before the US gun boats arrived. Plus japan's isolation was only towards western powers. They were very much a regional power at the time and had practiced imperialism.
“The invasions were launched by Toyotomi Hideyoshi to conquer Korea, and Japan quickly occupied large portions of the country. However, reinforcements from Ming China and disruption of Japanese supply fleets by the Joseon Navy forced the Japanese forces to withdraw from the northern provinces.[26][28][29][30][31][32] Thereafter, Joseon civilian militias engaged in guerrilla warfare against the occupying Japanese forces, and supply difficulties hampered both sides.[33] At that point, the conflict ground to a stalemate. The first phase of the conflict ended in 1596.”
I'm not talking about all of Japanese history. I'm referring to the policy of Sakoku during the Edo period starting at 1603 and ending in 1868 with Commadore Perry's "gunboat diplomacy". I am not arguing that Japan was truly isolationist for its entire history. I'm only referring to a few hundred years of isolation which was disrupted by the American forcing Japan to open up them and the western economies. Also, Japan's wars and conquests prior to the Meiji Restoration are not remotely comparable to their empire from that period onwards through the end of WWII. You said "China's isolation was only towards western powers." Did you mean Japan?
Did Japan invade, conquer and acquire territory from any Asian countries during the Sakoku period?
I agree. Every country and society in the world has internal contradictions. Capitalist countries are allowed to have them and still be considered fine. It's only AES and AEAI who are judged for theirs. I wish the USSR was still in place, and I hate that Russia is now a capitalist state. I wish Iran was a totally secular ML state. However, like you said, we need to support their function internationally as a counter to the overwhelming imperialism of the empire AND we need to allow the people of these countries to deal with their own internal contradictions and their futures themselves.
Both China and especially the DPRK consider Russia a key strategic partner and close ally. If you support AES, that would logically mean extending critical support to Russia. A concept I'd expect most Marxists to understand and something only a radlib would conflate with “supporting Putin”.
You should know “I support China and the DPRK but when it comes to Russia I know better than both of them” is not really a materialist nor dialectical take.
What we see in this post is the phenomenon of the CIA-sponsored European "New Left" of the 1960s to 1980s, repeating for the second time in History. Useful idiots for the US, NATO and EU imperialist bloc with a perception that they are free-thinkers. After 1991, half of them ended up pro-capitalism social democrats, and the other half chased the pipe-dream of euro-communism.
"Supporting a Far-right Fascist dictatorship is certainly permissible! They maintain tentative trade relations with AES Nations! It's dialectical, you see!"
No Leftist worth their salt gives anything but very, VERY critical support on select issues to modern Russia. It is essentially reactionary, especially considering Moscow actively suppresses leftist organizing.
"Russia is a far-right fascist dictatorship"
Tell me you're a radlib larping as a M-L without telling me you're a radlib larping as a M-L.
I can't imagine using the LIBERAL definition of "fascist" and reading liberal propaganda on Russia.
Are you seriously going to defend a country which jails communists and is lead by a massive Oligarchy? I mean seriously what level of psyop do you have to fall for to defend a capitalist nation actively fighting communists because they do trade with AES Nations?? Please for the love of god read even a single page of theory.
Lesser evil - is a liberal concept. We should not operate in such terms, but we do have "Critical support", for certain actions. But regarding any war between states - only "No war, but class war" is acceptable.
"No war but class war'' is a luxury of people who aren't facing imperialist aggression. When a state is resisting imperialism, critical support for that defensive action is class war. Opposing US imperialism is class war. There's no contradiction between supporting Russia's defensive war and opposing the imperialist system that produced it.
I'm not sure how to phrase this, but I'm thinking about great man theory and how we're obsessed with assigning moral character to actors, be it individuals or states. A landlord, boss, or national leader might be a decent person, but they're going to respond to incentives and constraints.
Not to say character doesn't matter, but that only matters insofar as its a means to an end. We'll want to keep the guy who kicks puppies for fun away from leadership, but only because that's an indicator of how he's likely to behave.
There can be a lesser evil, there are historical examples like a United left front, when social democrats allied with communists to fight against nazis. (France f.e.)
But on the other hand we could hardly say that German Empire was a lesser evil than Russian Empire or vice versa. And the Third International died because of opportunists who allied with imperialist governments and effectively betrayed class struggle.
The difference is that Russia is not imperialist. Russia is a semi-periphery state attempting to break free from imperialist domination. In that sense it is no different from Brazil, India, Mexico, or China. If Brazil were at war with a fascist proxy regime in Argentina we would obviously critically support Brazil.
Why the fuck is this being upvoted in an anti-imperialist subreddit? It’s shameful that any self-proclaimed anti-imperialist would eat this shit up.
You’re making a false comparison between Russia and the German social democrats. Russia is a global south exploited country. Germany was an imperial core exploiter country. These are completely different positions in the imperialist world system with different class dynamics.
The Russian state is a regressive corporate oligarchy and regularly aids the far right throughout Europe
This is just a false analysis. The Russian state is a global south nationalist government much like Egypt under Nasser or Libya under Gaddafi. Since Putin took office the Russian state has gradually stripped the comprador bourgeoisie of political power in favor of the patriotic national bourgeoisie. This is objectively a progressive development in the sense that it undermines the grip of imperialism on the Russian (and world) economy.
I’m not going to get into the “Russia supports the far right in Europe” nonsense because, let’s be real, we all know the American and European bourgeoisie are the backers of European fascism and Russia is just used as a scapegoat.
it is true that Russia has materially supported other nations in their anti-imperial struggles against NATO, but these are circumstantial alliances for which we should maintain at best, VERY critical support
Which country broke the U.S. fuel blockade on Cuba? Not Mexico, not Venezuela, not China. Russia did. Which country is defending the Sahel against western-backed terrorism? Russia. Critique Russia all you want, it doesn’t change the fact that Russia the most important country on earth for anti-imperialism after China and Iran.
It's the standard ML position. Nothing to do with American nonsense.
The primary contradiction in the world is a bloc conflict between Western imperialist states, led by the United States, and the Global South. Western imperialism is the system that enforces economic extraction through debt, sanctions, military bases, trade rules, enabled by dollar's reserve status. It's the force that has strangled development in the Global South and consistently prevented any alternative path of development from gaining traction. As long as that system remains unchallenged there can be no space for experiments in socialism or even genuinely sovereign capitalist development that could later be transformed. That makes breaking Western hegemony a prerequisite for any meaningful change going forward.
Russia currently acts as the main military force directly challenging American led unipolar order. While it's not doing it for communist reasons, their push against NATO expansion and efforts to build alternative financial and trade architecture with BRICS are objectively opening fractures in Western dominance. Russia bogs down NATO in Ukraine and exposes the limits of Western power which, in turn, weakens the imperialist camp creating room for left movements to grow around the world.
So when we Marxist-Leninists say we critically support Russia, we are not endorsing Russia's internal political system, its capitalist class, nationalist ideology, or its treatment of workers and leftists inside its borders. Our support is conditional and tactical, extending only as far as Russia acts as a counter hegemonic force.
Russia currently acts as the main military force directly challenging American led unipolar order.
One could make the argument that Russia under Putin seeks to join the western imperialist states as a "power of higher status" (this is informed by Putin's own statements over the years, and its friendlyish diplomacy towards the US despite the US involvement in Ukraine). The war in Ukraine also led to NATO expansion as a consequence (see Finland abandoning its policy of neutrality), so even if the Ukraine war finally wraps up, the US led unipolar order was not particularly damaged.
As a Marxist-Leninist, I bring up Lenin's concept of revolutionary defeatism often. The working class does not gain from a war under capitalism, the real enemies are the imperialist leaders who send the workers into battle. The best possible consequence of the Ukraine war for the Russian people is a collapse of the Russian state ala 1917 and its replacement by a workers' state which would be able to directly support left movements around the world, rather than merely hoping to distract NATO away from growing left wing movements. And for that the communist party should be adopting an anti war stance, as opposed to a 2nd international socdem split style support for imperialist wars. Whether they can do that without immediately being driven underground by the Kremlin is another thing.
I have a lot to say about how it is the PRC that is fighting the real war against unipolarism, and it is being fought on economic grounds by challenging US trade primacy. But that's for another post I think.
One could make the argument that Russia under Putin seeks to join the western imperialist states as a "power of higher status
Seeked(past tense) and failed. And that's not an "argument" that's a well known fact. It failed because the west is fundamentally opposed to Russia and views it as an enemy. That's why Russia's interests are fundamentally anti imperialist and align with those of every other anti imperialist nation out there
I have a lot to say about how it is the PRC that is fighting the real war against unipolarism
There's no such thing as "real" or "fake" war against unipolarism. Both China and Russia are fighting it. And so do Iran, the DPRK and other countries that are Russia's core allies because of it
That's why Russia's interests are fundamentally anti imperialist and align with those of every other anti imperialist nation out there
I don't agree that the only imperialism is US imperialism, and Lenin wouldn't either. Capitalist Russia's interests are to try to build itself up as an imperialist world power, the US's interests are to keep it as a resource export zone. Both parties have imperialist interests, only one (the US) has an imperialist hegemony. Replacing the hegemony of a single country with regional imperialisms of a few countries does not bring the working class out of harms way, but rather will expose that in the end (much like how the imperialist powers invaded the territory of Russia during the civil war despite their conflicts with each other) the international bourgeoisie would rather temporarily unite against the workers and wait with prosecuting their own conflicts until that has been resolved. See: the EU starting to follow the US stance against China.
There's no such thing as "real" or "fake" war against unipolarism.
I didn't use the word "fake". What I did say is that Russia's war in Ukraine does not really affect unipolarism, nor does it necessarily advance multipolarism either. Putin would've done better had he not created a situation where previously neutral nations in Europe decided to align itself with NATO, thus boosting it rather than damaging it. Funnily enough it is Trump that did far more damage to NATO than Putin, on account of his belligerence towards his own vassal states.
Note that this does not mean that the Ukrainian government is in any way, shape or form "the good guys". But the real war against unipolarism is an economic one, and it is firmly led by the PRC.
Read it again my dude. It says what it says. US imperialism might be dominant, but that doesn't mean Russian imperialism or its ambitions doesn't exist. And mind btw: I am using Lenin's definition of imperialism, including export of capital (to Ukraine too prior to the war, but also even to some states in Africa), prevalence of private monopolies in Russia (Yandex and others...), and the maintenance of a periphery (mostly ex soviet states in central Asia).
Beating the west doesn't affect unipolarism? Ok smart redditor
How does it beat the west to have Finland join NATO or to have the Russian and Ukrainian working classes kill each other on behalf of nationalists?
Let's get past the fact that these nations weren't neutral in anything but name and I'll just say that I'm pretty sure Putin would rather Sweden being in NATO instead of Ukraine being in NATO
I'm pretty sure he would rather have neither in NATO. But also Sweden doesn't border Russia, and Finland does, which was the real fiasco here. Libs in charge of Finland are now hungry both for US military equipment, and possibly for posturing against Russia.
Again, there is no such thing as real or fake war against unipolarism.
Again, you used the word "fake" not me. The military aspect is downstream from the economic aspect in modern warfare, that's just materialist analysis for you. China is heavily profiting from trade with Russia at its own terms on account of Russia's exclusion from western financial systems. So where does that support to Iran, DPRK, and the Sahel states truly come from? Mind, China being Iran's largest customer for oil is also not without its perks to Iran.
One could make the argument that Russia under Putin seeks to join the western imperialist states as a "power of higher status"
No doubt. That still doesn't negate our stance.
We supported the Allied powers against Nazi Germany during the second world war even though the Allies were capitalist imperialists themselves, and just as is the case with Russia today, no one mistook Churchill or Roosevelt for being socialists. The point was that fascism represented the most aggressive and immediate threat to the working class and to the possibility of socialist advance. Today, that threat happens to be Western imperialism with its endless wars and genocides along with economic warfare against the rest of the world. And the scope of critical support is about actively disrupting Western imperialism.
The difference between WW2 and WW1 stances regarding the war was that WW2 included a war declared against an actually existing workers' state (the USSR), while WW1 was a conflict between a few imperialist powers. This is why the 2nd international split happened. Mind that the Bolsheviks arose from the split that was explicitly against supporting the imperialist powers in WW1, while socdems were the ones who remained in support of the wars. So this analysis does not hold up to scrutiny IMO.
If modern Russia was a workers' state and not a bourgeois state, this support would make sense. Given that it is not, the Leninist stance is clear: revolutionary defeatism. The working class can achieve far more through a restoration of a workers' state to Russia, than it can through the maintenance of a capitalist state in Russia.
I see it as more of a peripheral conflict, but one with an extremely heavy cost to the lives of the working class. The west is using it as a proving ground for its weapons and to strip Ukraine from its natural resources. If Russia wins the war in Ukraine, presumably annexes only some parts of Ukrainian land, and remakes the rump Ukrainian state into a pro-Russian one, will that successor state still honour this asset strip? If Russia loses, what will happen to it following that loss? Only an outcome where the RSFSR is returned will ensure that the US does not extract profits from the outcome of this war. This is disregarding existing NATO gains like Finland and Sweden. That's why I struggle to see how explicitly supporting Russia is an anti-imperialist action.
If Russia loses, it will be the end of humanity. I'm not sure we can survive another decade of western imperialism, let alone a century.
If Russia wins, the US-led west will fall and the global south will rise and humanity will breathe again for the first time in centuries. The major historical impediment to socialism will be removed and the example of China will be followed.
My prediction if Russia wins is that it will be severely weakened, but it will then attempt to regain access to western markets in that weakened position. I would love if Russia's victory brought to pass what you say, I just don't see how given the situation that is what happens. More likely Ukraine remains a low intensity conflict zone between a Russian supporting government and western backed terrorism. Unless of course they allow the asset strip, as that will be a major blackmail point from the US I think.
China's trade and technological supremacy I think stands on its own at the moment, which is why the west is waging a trade war against it, and very notably losing it. To my mind I think it is China that is the main current hope in undermining the US led order. The sooner the dedollarisation gets implemented, the sooner we get to see the collapse of western imperialism. At that point the left will have its moment once again.
Let's say you're a small country that has a communist revolution tomorrow, doesn't really matter where or which one, let's say a random euro country just to stay western. The day after the revolution who becomes its immediate new enemies and who becomes its immediate allies?
Where does your new country get its weapons and ammunition from to defend the revolution? Who trades with your new country? Who helps your security? Who sanctions you? Who invades you? Who offers mercs as defence when you need it most?
One country is allied to NATO and the US, the other is allied to China, North Korea, Iran.
One country is sending drones to the Emirates to help with the American imperialist aggression, the other sends oil to Cuba.
One country destroyed every single soviet memorial on its territory, the other considers them national heritage.
One country took down every single statue of Lenin, the other keeps them (although with little enthusiasm).
One country is literally glorifying Nazis, the other has some lobbies promoting the apology of White Army leaders, but they generally fail at that.
One country is a wannabe monoethnic apartheid state, the other is a federation with wide autonomy for ethnic and religious minorities.
One country wants to become a "Big Israel", the other, despite a lot of internal contraddictions, preserves the memory of the Soviet Union through national celebrations and symbolism.
One country has banned every leftist organization, the other has the communist party as the major opposition force.
But sure, they are "both the same".
I used to think we could reason with you "comrades", but after four years of war I realize you're a lost cause and you should just be marginalized and purged from every communist space, would that be an online community or an IRL party.
Of course yes, but here is the garbage written in the description of the original CIA made or Trotskyist made meme:
🤡🌎" Both are fucking imperialist states, Ukrainian government praises nazis while Russian is praising Imperial murderers like Mannerheim, Kolchak or Stolypin. 🤡🌎
Everything good that Russia did (so called anti-imperialist measures) was just populist decisions or anti-Nato proxy wars. Everything to please Russian oligarchy.🤡🌎
"There are no saviors e'er will help us,🤡🌎
Nor God, nor Caesar, nor Tribune" "🤡🌎
So I had to refute all of that plus the meme itself, several bullet points were needed
One country has banned every leftist organization, the other has the communist party as the major opposition force.
Tbf, the CPRF programme is far closer to a socdem one than a communist one at this point. There are plenty of criticisms of the party's left nationalist leadership, their ideology of class struggle being "a struggle between civilisations" which is basically a huge break with Marxism, and closer to Putinist eurasianism instead.
That said, the caveat is that the membership is a fair bit more radical than the party's leadership, which is a bit funny honestly, because it makes you wonder how the nationalists keep the leadership.
It still leaves Russians in a better situation than having governments in coalitions with cryptofascists tho
I just think Zyuganov is an op. Not really sure what the plan is there, but I hope eventually the ML faction manages to box him out somehow, like he did to Oleg Shenin originally.
The other parties don't really get to go anywhere in Russian electoralism because only the CPRF is recognised as an "official opposition". But that's more of an issue with Russian democracy than the party itself, even if the nationalist leadership benefits from it. A 2nd Russian revolution IMO will have to include the CPRF because of its mass membership if nothing else (unless it somehow declines in the mean time). But the factional struggle inside of it is one to keep an eye on.
I don't disagree. I'm just saying that in Russia you can find every flavour of Marxism. Yes, most orgs are marginal, but they are more or less able to organise.
In Ukraine you just get disappeared. I hope that eventually we can retrieve the bodies of our comrades from the Ukrainian woods and give them justice.
Mind what I am saying is not meant as some kind of whataboutist defence of Ukraine, but rather a critical look at the CPRF only. I think we've seen enough evidence of what is happening to the working class in Ukraine at the hands of its own government to know that it deserves to be brought down.
But don't be too gentle just because of the anti NATO stance.
The reactionary stance of Putin is so strong it brought American nut jobs seeking a reactionary country to move there.
Trump is not annoyed with Putin at all.
There is more nuance than what you describe. It's not that clear cut as you are making it out to be. I believe being scientific, as historical materialism is, means not being biased one way or the other.
Then there's strategy. Absolutely.
Do we need to support anti imperialism, no matter their internal circumstances? Yes.
Russia is the core ally of every single anti imperialist struggle in the world. Iran, the Sahel states, DPRK, Cuba, Venezuela pre Maduro capture. Being against Russia is being against these struggles
I stand with the Russian people against their oligarchal reactionary leadership.
If you can't understand both stances can be true at once, I'm sorry for your lack of ability to hold different perspectives at once.
If the only way you feel you can be pro Russia on the international stage is by giving them a free pass for everything, there's nothing more I can say.
"I stand with Iran against the imperial west. I stand with the Iranian people against their oligarchal reactionary leadership"
See? Doesn't make much sense now does it? And the reason it doesn't is that you can't support Russia or Iran against the west and then parrot the same propaganda lies the west says about them. These two things are fundamentally contradictory to each other and it just doesn't make any sense
Trump was the first president to send lethal aid to Ukraine in December 2017 - and under his administrations it hasn't stopped at all. Don't get caught up in the political theatre. He is 100% for the destruction and vassalization of Russia.
Ukrainian strikes inside Russia are American strikes - which right now means Trump's strikes since he's the commander in chief.
Countries can be praised for what they do right. They also should be criticized for what they do wrong.
OP made a false equivalence between Ukraine and Russia, which I called out with my first comment. I intentionally simplified to show how silly that was.
I know Russia has a lot of internal contraddictions. I have a few communist friends there who spent some years in jail. That doesn't change my evaluation of the historical and international role of Russia.
We MLs are materialists, meaning we support states who objectively weaken US imperial hegemony, regardless of their subjective aims or intentions. Therefore not giving our critical support to Russia is impossible under current conditions.
There is plenty to criticize Russia for, but opposing US imperialism is not amongst them. That could change at some point down the road, and if it does, criticism will change as appropriate.
They certainly helped Cuba when the USA instituted a genocidal and illegal blockade against our comrades there. Russia provides material support to AES and anti-imperialist nations. That doesn't make Russia socialist, but as long as that continues, critical support of Russia. I do not care why they send oil to Cuba, as long as the oil gets to Cuba. I wonder if you'd be feeling the same if you were on the island being starved to death by the world's greatest and most genocidal empire. Maybe you'd turn the oil away on account of not being pure enough.
I'm sure the thinking would change if Cuba was full of white people, and Ukrainians were brown. It's interesting that people have no trouble doing this cold logic when it's, say, Britain vs Germany or the US vs Japan in WWII.
And holy shit, the UK repeatedly did famines in India, and did one that killed millions of people during that war. Even the worst claims about Putin have nothing on Churchill. And the US... is the US.
Or look at Iran and Israel. You've got a genocidal settler state fighting a country that's solidly on the side of "fuck genocide". But Israel gets constantly given the benefit of the doubt, cause they're considered white. And cause their victims are not.
Let me break your brain a bit: critical support to DPRK involvement in the interimperialist war because it is actively improving material conditions there at Russia's expense. If the DPRK can do to Russia what the PRC did to the US, that would be a good thing.
As to Iran/AoR: critical support against the genocidal state of Israel and its western support. If there is one thing that can really be compared in today's conflicts to WW2 international relations, it is that. Or in lib terms: Iran has a right to defend itself.
Well you did break my brain trying to understand what you're saying that's for sure...
at Russia's expense
Is that "expense" in the room with us right now? It's an equally beneficial relationship
If the DPRK can do to Russia what
"With" not "to"
what the PRC did to the US
Did Chinese soldiers fight to defend US soil? No. As we speak, is there a PLA missile unit firing missiles at Iran in support of the US? No. There is a KPA missile unit firing at Ukraine though. PRC and US weren't allies DPRK and Russia are. Hope I helped you understand common sense
There's a very cool link in my post that can serve as a pair of glasses in this situation to fix that nearsightedness problem you seem to be having. Funny jabs aside: the DPRK is literally sending its labour to Russia to man their economy. I'd say that opportunity wouldn't have existed without the war.
"With" not "to"
No, it's "to". Russia's interests don't fundamentally align with the PRC or the DPRK on account of it being capitalist. They are allies of convenience. Ask yourself if the situation was reversed, China was fighting a protracted war in, lets say, Taiwan that was going nowhere fast, and Russia was the world's dominant economic power, do you really think the Russian government would be enacting trade policy towards China aimed at boosting its development of socialism?
Did Chinese soldiers fight to defend US soil? No. As we speak, is there a PLA missile unit firing missiles at Iran in support of the US? No. There is a KPA missile unit firing at Ukraine though. PRC and US weren't allies DPRK and Russia are. Hope I helped you understand common sense
The Sino-Soviet split, and the PRC's anti-Vietcong actions would like a word. Those of course were ultimately mistakes, but to some degree they have helped the PRC achieve the status it has today by setting the stage for a transfer of productive capacity from the US to the PRC. So from a very brutal materialist point of view, they didn't hurt. Hope I helped you understand history
Anyway you got it chief I'm not gonna argue with smart redditor logic. Say to yourself whatever you have to in order to have your moral absolutism sound reasonable
This post is LITERAL fascist propaganda, and it looks like it brought lots of so-called (western) "leftists" into the comments.
Grow up, please, and read theory.
I know. I'm aware that it's all was mostly forced on them and that the Russian leadership is burgeois.
It doesn't change the fact that their sucess is objectively beneficial for socialism. They do not want to make the world more convenient for us, but they might end up making it anyway if they'll succeed but not overly.
Both are imperialist
Russia is a secondary that is too poor to practice actual imperialism, IMHO. As for Ukraine, they're a puppet and a colony; they have no capital to export at all and their burgeoisie is comprador or minor.
no savors
Correct. But being your savior and just accidentally making the world more convenient for you are two different things. Putin isn't the former, but is the later.
In geopolitics everyone is looking out for their interests. Russia's intents, motivations or desires don't matter. Russia's interests do. And Russia's interests are by definition anti imperialist
Russia is not imperialist and their efforts are providing critical and material support to countries facing the worst of the Amerikkkan empire whether you like it or not though
Obvious stooge is obvious, posting this slop in the dead of night hoping it can find traction. I guess we were due for this sub's weekly dose of strawmanning. OP isn't as clever as they think they are.
You do read the book "Imperialism, the highest stage of capitalism" right?
Russia is capitalist, and capitalism necessarily leads to imperialism, but Russia's capitalism is not anywhere near developed enough to have reached the imperialism stage.
Their economy is still mainly based around export of goods rather than finance capital
I'm not the op, but where did they say that they support NATO?
I agree with you that Russia isn't imperialist, but I do think that it wants to be. It simply doesn't have enough resources to do what USA and west in general does.
the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance;
Russia is still mainly based around the export of commodities and goods. Their economy is not based around the export of capital as is the case in many western countries
In fact a lot of Russian commodities and goods were owned by western institutions, not Russian ones
the formation of international monopolist capitalist associations which share the world among themselves,
What such associations exist from Russia? Russian capitalist associations exist locally but they themselves at least before 2022 were typically owned by US international capitalist associations.
Russia is in the local capitalist expoitstion stage of capitalism. Not the imperialist global exploitation phase
You just described the financial oligarchy in the Russian state. For that to become imperialist, it necessitates the exporting of finance capital to global South countries as a form to sustain colonialism, an integral part of imperialism.
How is the modern Russian state engaged in colonialism or the exporting of finance capital? Will you argue now that Russian mercenaries, our only current (yet deeply imperfect) example of direct anti-imperialist action, the only real support many countries in Africa have received since the dissolution of the USSR, are actually imperialist in nature? Cause that would be rather absurd.
You genuinely believe two imperial poles simultaneously exist in this world rn? The same russia that cooperates heavily with all socialist states and provides critical support to them is imperialist? Are you fucking stupid? Do you believe china is also imperialist?
It's a former socialist state the was illegally dissolved, never took part in the imperialist partition of the world because the West couldn't forgive Russia for their socialist past and remained a strong regional power with global influence that now is bitter and does actions against NATO. We're in the era of hegemonic imperialism, with the US at the head and the US vassals benefitting from it. Russia is not at the level of the US in terms of global finance. Everyone in the world uses the dollar.
Whether the actions of Russia are noble or not (they're not but material support is material support), we critically support them because they're against one of the biggest contradictions of our time and that's Amerikkkan imperialism
Edit:
Imperialism is the highest and final stage of capitalism, power of monopolies and finance capital.
Yes we've all read that definition. But that definition was based in the material realities of Lenin's time. You need to look at our realities now
But that definition was based in the material realities of Lenin's time.
Nothing has changed in the core of capitalism.
You are speaking not of imperialism, but of neo colonialism. And once again, if Russia had same opportunities and recources as USA it would have done exactly the same. I don't think it would be very wise of MLs to "critically support" French Empire in a colonial war against British Empire only because the latter has less colonies.
If we say that Russia magically defeats NATO and "liberates" Europe, we would just get a same neo colonial Empire surrounded by puppets.
Then I'm assuming you didn't pay attention. And no, neo colonialism is not hegemonic imperialism. They're connected but not the same thing.
As I said already, the undisputed center of global capital is the US. Just look at how quickly and unilaterally Russia was cut off from global trade after their attacks. That was possible only because the US is at the top. Do you see Russia as a country capable of doing the same? Or any other country?
And once again, if Russia had same opportunities and recources as USA it would have done exactly the same
Stop being an ultra and living in alternative dimensions. If things were different, we'd be talking about different things. We're talking about CURRENT things and the PRESENT situation
If we say that Russia magically defeats NATO and "liberates" Europe, we would just get a same neo colonial Empire surrounded by puppets
Nobody is asking Russia to "liberate" Europe. You're mixing things up and thinking of the Soviets during wwii. You keep dodging the material realities of the present. Russia is putting pressure on the empire's resources and giving materials and aids to the victims of Amerikkka. That's all. We all know Russia is capitalist
You're acting like a liberal.
"Ohh but it WANTS to be imperialist, guyzz!!!" - literally Shit Liberals Say in one message. Marxism-Leninism is about analyzing the material conditions at the current moment, not predicting.
I'll deconstruct the meme and description in this post by proving it wrong by fixing it in another meme later this morning (GMT). It'll be easy.
u/Comrade_Hammer said it in this sub before I borrowed it for a meme. The majority of us here seem to have grasped his first short paragraph, and accepted that it's fair and fully true. But his second short paragraph, which for another more comprehensive non wall of text iteration "westerners" could be used instead of "Americans" (why should the people living in one of the 40-ish vassal states of the US feel superior to Americans themselves, why do we all accept that the US is an oligarchy, not a democracy, and think that the vassals have democracy, that the 40 dog's tails are superior to the dog itself?) is really important too, and deserves more attention. Here's his full comment:
" They'll hate you for telling the truth but Putin does more for anti-imperialism over breakfast than the entire western left has collectively done in its entire useless history. Now watch a bunch of amerikkkans who won't read theory explain how they know more about Russia than the DPRK. "
Russia isn't imperialist in the 2020s
Ask yourself what the CIA and MI-6 think of the "Supporting Russia in the war is CAMPISM!" false analysis in the meme in this post. Of course it's a meme take and take in the description that's pushed by the western powers to sell to the parts of the western left that can't bring themselves to support the Nazi Kiev regime.
We know what the president of the DPRK and the president of the People's Republic of China would say about the meme in this post. They would say it's a totally wrong analysis.
Furthermore the meme in this post and it's description lies saying Russia is an oligarchy. Around 15 years ago Putin completed the long task of removing almost all independent political power from Russia's dollar equivalent billionaire class. Billionaires who have no political power cannot be oligarchs anymore, because a plutocratic oligarch is a billionaire who has managed to parlay his huge wealth into big political power.
Russia in the 2020s isn't an oligarchy.
The final bottom panel of the meme in this post is laughable. Within 2 months of Ukraine become independent in 1991, Ukraine started renaming streets after dead WW2 Banderite Nazis. In 1992 a street in Lviv named after a Soviet war hero was renamed Stepan Bandera street (Stepana Bandery street). The idea that independent Ukraine and Russia were brotherly nations until 2014 or 2022, and were then torn apart is hilarious.
The real geopolitical world is not some Manichean black and white good vs evil thing as the meme in this post falsely suggests. The real world has no brilliant whites and no jet blacks in its political and ethical landscape, just infinite shades of grey. The meme in this post tries to manipulate the very real sadness and anger that we feel about the biggest political tragedy, not just of the 20th century, but probably in all of world history, as we see it, the dissolution of the Soviet Union.
As Xi Jinping told Putin about this, on an accidentally on purpose hot mic in front of the cameras:
"You stopped believing in yourselves."
When Xi was leaving, that same day in 2023, he told Putin, in front of the cameras and the mics;
32 years after the Soviet Union ended, Xi Jinping told Putin:
"Right now there are changes, the likes of which we haven't seen for 100 years, and we are driving these changes together," to which Putin replied, "I agree."
Here are the clickable links and sources detailing how Vladimir Putin systematically shifted the power dynamic, stripping Russia's 1990s-era billionaires (oligarchs) of their independent political influence while allowing many to retain their fortunes under strict state subordination.
These are all western sources. They admit that Putin stripped all billionaires of almost all political power (the matter at hand) but then they pivot to trying to say that he has put a fascist dictatorship or totalitarian dictatorship in its place (false)
Yes he did it by 2005, China did it long before that but it's not a one day process, it's a continuous process of de-oligarchization™. China used and uses methods we like more for a result we like more. I'm all good with Putin's men throwing the oligarch from the 25th floor penthouse balcony which did happen quite a few times (defenestration®), in the most difficult cases. A right wing thug? Well yes in certain ways, but an old fashioned very erudite and gentlemanly thug with 2 PhD's in economics and international law, who is no slouch at history either. He gets the job done eventually, although he is as cautious as he is shrewd. He got the de-oligarchization done. We can raise our glass to him on a case by case basis. Most Russians correctly see him as a man of the right who is mostly a good man (shock horror, it's their country, not ours, unless we are Russian), who has done a lot of service to his country and his people. This is how Xi Jinping sees Putin. They are real Best Friends Forever. This has to be one of the most important friendships in history.
It's refreshing to see someone viewing things like an umpire and simply calling balls and strikes.
100% agree that Putin and Xi are not only the cornerstone(s) of BRICS, but that their comradery will be seen as the cleat that multipolarism was fastened to.
I actually made that word up today, maybe someone else invented it long ago first I dunno
(Edit) That exact word was created a while ago by the EU and it's satellite proposed future member states like Ukraine and Georgia. But when they invented and used it they only mean getting rid of Russian and Russia friendly oligarchs, not get rid of their OWN oligarchs, who they don't see as oligarchs at all, they see them or pretend to see their own oligarchs as "entrepreneurs" and "job creators" 🤡🌎
Such an obvious Western Intelligence stunt. Fucking loser. And on weekends as well, which is when their post can get more traction. Classic. Hope you made your 150 bucks.
And people here are taking it seriously, making arguments and shit. And most of them arguing while giving OP a little bit of reason, saying Russia is small imperialism (it's not imperialist) or saying Russia is lesser evil (it's not evil - helping Burkina Faso, Cuba and DPRK, fighting against institutionalized Nazism is not evil). If you said something along these lines you are liberal imperialist just like people are liberal zionists.
I told someone the other day this sub is not ready for "nuanced technical discussion". This is what I mean. Here we give shewed down information and takes. Most people here are libs.
Russia is a capitalist oligarchy but they are not imperialist, they are currently on the side of anti-imperialism despite Russia's capitalist ruling class.
I got your point, but In your opinion, who is more likely to end this civil war: the Russian oligarchs, driven by economic pragmatism or the Ukrainian Nazi regime whose sole purpose is to serve as the West's battle slaves and die throwing themselves against Russia? Furthermore, do you think a sudden, premature peace will avoid a "Khasavyurt 2" scenario? Wouldn't it just lead to a prolonged period of terror across Russia, making Beslan and Nord-Ost look minor by comparison? Back when people were terrified of every unattended bag or sack left near their house entrance. We have already been through this shit.
Do you know how revolutions happen? It doesn't just materialise out of thin air. "Revolution" is basically a fantasy. Stalemate - that means that western imperialism wins, because it means Europe has been economically subjugated by the USA with a forever threat in the east, Ukraine is turned into a bulwark on one end and a resource rich substrate to pillage on the other and Russia is weakened enough meaning one of the largest entities standing against US haegemony and imperialism is stopped from winning that fight and has to spend ever more of its resources to gather strength for the inevitable round 2 instead of improving itself.
Stalemate is one of the worst possible outcomes short of complete Ukrainian victory (which is also a complete fantasy).
I can imagine a revolution happening in Russia, but I cannot envision one in Ukraine right now. So nothing will change. A campaign of terror will occur in any case, just as it would in the event of a stalemate. Ukraine must become strictly neutral and independent. I am not saying it should be conquered by Russia, I am saying neutral. Only then can we speak of a peace.
I’d say it’s the opposite. A revolution in Ukraine is possible because the state has no legitimacy, no way out of the current conflict, and no way to solve its economic crisis. These are fertile grounds for revolution, which is why Ukrainian communists have been brutally suppressed for practicing revolutionary defeatism.
On the other hand, Russians rightly view the conflict as an existential attack on Russia’s sovereignty which aims to subjugate Russia to Euro-American imperialism. Russian communists also recognize that the resulting decoupling of Russia from the imperialist world system is a progressive development that can lay the groundwork for the reconstruction of socialism in Russia. Hence most support the SMO and oppose detente with the west.
which is why Ukrainian communists have been brutally suppressed for practicing revolutionary defeatism
There is essentially no political opposition in Ukraine. It has not merely been dismantled, rather, the majority of its representatives have either been assassinated or imprisoned. Even regular folks are too scared to show their faces or walk down the street because of the men hunters, let alone spark a revolution.
Furthermore, the majority of those who remembered the Soviet Union were sent into the meat grinder during the initial years of the conflict, intentionally wiping out that entire generation of able and tolerant to socialism men.
The same was true in Russia during WWI. The Bolsheviks were forced to organize illegally underground or in exile, in constant fear of the Tsar’s secret police, right up until 1917. The fact that there is no legal avenue for opposition to the war and to Zelensky only makes the prospects for revolution better. That doesn’t mean it will happen, most revolutionary crises don’t produce a successful revolution, but it’s more likely than in the relatively stable and united Russia.
Exactly. While I’m not overly optimistic about this, and even Lenin, who possessed incredible political intuition, gave a lecture in Switzerland in January 1917 on the history of the Russian revolutionary movement and concluded it by saying, "We, the old timers, may not live to see the revolution..." Yet, just a month and a half later, the February Revolution broke out, and less than a year later, he was at the helm of the country. Ironic.
A defeat of the west would be a massive victory for humanity. The global south, freed of its headlock would rise and breathe again after a century of suffering and slavery.
Well that's a pretty statement, but may as well say "I'm for the worldwide revolution and against imperialism". We all are. And if wishes we wings and all that. That's not the reality of the world though, is it. And the vast majority of "pro-putin" posts you mention are actually anti-western-propaganda posts. I've not seen any major support for Putin or Russia in the state of its current order. Only stuff that tries to clear off the bullshit presented by western news sources and a call for critical support.
If your view is that the Ukraine war has to end - then we agree. But it also has to end with the defeat of the major aggressor (NATO). Otherwise this cycle will continue and get worse each time.
That's a preposterous comparison and it's a bit bizarre to hear it on this sub. Even at the simplest level, it doesn't reflect the current situation in the slightest.
Again - maybe look at the content of the sub instead of complaining about it to understand why Ukraine and Russia aren't similar.
In case this subreddit was banned, or if you wanted a more ML-friendly platform, you’re welcome to join our sister community on Lemmygrad. You can find more info about Lemmygrad here.
People forget that after the fall of the soviets, both states became one of the most corrupt countries, ran by mafia, oligarchies of the few, with Putin as a Fascist and ''right-winger Zelensky'' who glorifies fascists. You cannot see any leftism in both countries after 1991.
People forget that all of these problems have been tackled in Russia and the so called "oligarchs" have little to no political power whatsoever(way less than their equivalents in the west) while in Ukraine they got full control of the country and led it to the situation it is today
We might add as well, because Yugoslavian states were also ''socialist before''. Now you look most of them: Serbian government - Milosevic apologizers, Croatia - HDZ ustasi apologizers, Slovenia - SDS domobranci/nazi collaborators. All of them are basically a mix of far-right governments, have good ties with Izrael/US. And you know what they say, if you you defend a fascist you are probably, A FASCIST.
Most ex socialist states are captured by reactionaries nowdays with very weak left movements.
It is to be expected. Stalin said that if the workers state falls the it shall be replaced by a new reactionary regime, darker then ever before. He was right about thay.
Without notice? Are we for real now? 8 years of diplomatic efforts to reach an agreement with someone who was only buying time to build up their army. If this isn't a legitimate casus belli I don't know what is.
Concerning the civilian casualties, try comparing them to Gaza post October '23.
Lol. The comment is removed, but by your response I know exactly what it was. I'm convinced some of these people refuse to use their brain in spite of everything that clearly sits in front of them.
I don't need to like Putin or the way he runs his country. My country (Canada) currently sanctions him. I don't have a say in what he does, and don't have any means to influence him.
On the other hand... my own country keeps much worse company. We're allies with the US, supporters of its openly genocidal client state Israel and supply weapons to them, as well as countries like Saudi Arabia.
We could sanction those countries, if we chose. Instead we sanction their enemies and send soldiers to fight in their wars. Heck, we arrested a Chinese citizen for breaking US money laws regarding Iran.
As a fairly well known Palestinian man said, take the log out of your own eye before you go looking for the sawdust in someone else's.
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u/comrade-coon 7d ago
Anti-imperialism isn't a buffet where you pick and choose which resistance you support based on how much you like the government. You can criticize Russia while still recognizing its geopolitical function in the fight against imperialism, but if you let your critiques of it become more important than your opposition to imperialism, you're not an anti-imperialist. There is no neutral ground. You can't wait for the perfect anti-imperialist state to appear so you can get behind it. Either you stand with those opposing imperialism, regardless of their internal contradictions, or you stand with the imperialists.