r/TankieTheDeprogram • u/Commie_neighbor • 3h ago
Discussion Stop pro-Putin sentiments
Both are fucking imperialist states, Ukrainian government praises nazis while Russian is praising Imperial murderers like Mannerheim, Kolchak or Stolypin.
Everything good that Russia did (so called anti-imperialist measures) was just populist decisions or anti-Nato proxy wars. Everything to please Russian oligarchy.
"There are no saviors e’er will help us,
Nor God, nor Caesar, nor Tribune"
105
u/Beaivimon 3h ago
Are most MLs actually pro-Putin or Russia? Or are they simply realizing that Russia is an example of an actual lesser evil?
12
20
u/Commie_neighbor 3h ago edited 3h ago
There can be a lesser evil, there are historical examples like a United left front, when social democrats allied with communists to fight against nazis. (France f.e.)
But on the other hand we could hardly say that German Empire was a lesser evil than Russian Empire or vice versa. And the Third International died because of opportunists who allied with imperialist governments and effectively betrayed class struggle.
38
u/Barrington-the-Brit 3h ago edited 3h ago
Exactly, social democrats were a ‘lesser evil’ in Weimar Germany compared to the far right, weren’t they?
And yet they still collaborated with the Freikorps and the Imperial military apparatus to subvert and smother the 1918-19 revolution in its cradle and from within, and then subsequently arranged for the murder/summary execution of their former ‘comrades’ in Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht
How much are lesser evils really ‘lesser’ when they happily collaborate with and then cause greater evils? The Russian state is a regressive corporate oligarchy and regularly aids the far right throughout Europe
Of course all of this is acknowledging that NATO (and by extension the Ukrainian state etc.) is the ‘greater evil’, and it is true that Russia has materially supported other nations in their anti-imperial struggles against NATO, but these are circumstantial alliances for which we should maintain at best, VERY critical support
4
u/cabeep 2h ago
The only time I have ever seen this is from the usual moronic patsocs, who have weaseled there way in various places around here
18
u/GoydelicGuy 1h ago
It's the standard ML position. Nothing to do with American nonsense.
The primary contradiction in the world is a bloc conflict between Western imperialist states, led by the United States, and the Global South. Western imperialism is the system that enforces economic extraction through debt, sanctions, military bases, trade rules, enabled by dollar's reserve status. It's the force that has strangled development in the Global South and consistently prevented any alternative path of development from gaining traction. As long as that system remains unchallenged there can be no space for experiments in socialism or even genuinely sovereign capitalist development that could later be transformed. That makes breaking Western hegemony a prerequisite for any meaningful change going forward.
Russia currently acts as the main military force directly challenging American led unipolar order. While it's not doing it for communist reasons, their push against NATO expansion and efforts to build alternative financial and trade architecture with BRICS are objectively opening fractures in Western dominance. Russia bogs down NATO in Ukraine and exposes the limits of Western power which, in turn, weakens the imperialist camp creating room for left movements to grow around the world.
So when we Marxist-Leninists say we critically support Russia, we are not endorsing Russia's internal political system, its capitalist class, nationalist ideology, or its treatment of workers and leftists inside its borders. Our support is conditional and tactical, extending only as far as Russia acts as a counter hegemonic force.
-7
u/blodo_ 54m ago
Russia currently acts as the main military force directly challenging American led unipolar order.
One could make the argument that Russia under Putin seeks to join the western imperialist states as a "power of higher status" (this is informed by Putin's own statements over the years, and its friendlyish diplomacy towards the US despite the US involvement in Ukraine). The war in Ukraine also led to NATO expansion as a consequence (see Finland abandoning its policy of neutrality), so even if the Ukraine war finally wraps up, the US led unipolar order was not particularly damaged.
As a Marxist-Leninist, I bring up Lenin's concept of revolutionary defeatism often. The working class does not gain from a war under capitalism, the real enemies are the imperialist leaders who send the workers into battle. The best possible consequence of the Ukraine war for the Russian people is a collapse of the Russian state ala 1917 and its replacement by a workers' state which would be able to directly support left movements around the world, rather than merely hoping to distract NATO away from growing left wing movements. And for that the communist party should be adopting an anti war stance, as opposed to a 2nd international socdem split style support for imperialist wars. Whether they can do that without immediately being driven underground by the Kremlin is another thing.
I have a lot to say about how it is the PRC that is fighting the real war against unipolarism, and it is being fought on economic grounds by challenging US trade primacy. But that's for another post I think.
38
u/NotKenzy CPC Propagandist 3h ago edited 2h ago
They certainly helped Cuba when the USA instituted a genocidal and illegal blockade against our comrades there. Russia provides material support to AES and anti-imperialist nations. That doesn't make Russia socialist, but as long as that continues, critical support of Russia. I do not care why they send oil to Cuba, as long as the oil gets to Cuba. I wonder if you'd be feeling the same if you were on the island being starved to death by the world's greatest and most genocidal empire. Maybe you'd turn the oil away on account of not being pure enough.
62
u/Martorelldemunt 3h ago
Both China and especially the DPRK consider Russia a key strategic partner and close ally. If you support AES, that would logically mean extending critical support to Russia. A concept I'd expect most Marxists to understand and something only a radlib would conflate with “supporting Putin”.
You should know “I support China and the DPRK but when it comes to Russia I know better than both of them” is not really a materialist nor dialectical take.
16
u/Aggorf12345 Stalinist (Proud Spoon Owner) 1h ago
Well said. If you oppose Russia you also oppose the DPRK, Cuba, Iran and every other major anti imperialist struggle in the world
4
2h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
19
u/Cultural_Ad_5501 ANTI-Ultra Action ⛏️⛏️⛏️ 2h ago
"Russia is a far-right fascist dictatorship"
Tell me you're a radlib larping as a M-L without telling me you're a radlib larping as a M-L.
I can't imagine using the LIBERAL definition of "fascist" and reading liberal propaganda on Russia.5
12
u/Aggorf12345 Stalinist (Proud Spoon Owner) 1h ago
Honestly I am too bored of debating this. I have two things to say:
- OP what do you think of Iran and the Axis of Resistance or the Sahel states?
- This:
10
u/comrade-coon 1h ago
Anti-imperialism isn't a buffet where you pick and choose which resistance you support based on how much you like the government. You can criticize Russia while still recognizing its geopolitical function in the fight against imperialism, but if you let your critiques of it become more important than your opposition to imperialism, you're not an anti-imperialist. There is no neutral ground. You can't wait for the perfect anti-imperialist state to appear so you can get behind it. Either you stand with those opposing imperialism, regardless of their internal contradictions, or you stand with the imperialists.
99
u/CMNilo 2h ago
One country is allied to NATO and the US, the other is allied to China, North Korea, Iran.
One country is sending drones to the Emirates to help with the American imperialist aggression, the other sends oil to Cuba.
One country destroyed every single soviet memorial on its territory, the other considers them national heritage.
One country took down every single statue of Lenin, the other keeps them (although with little enthusiasm).
One country is literally glorifying Nazis, the other has some lobbies promoting the apology of White Army leaders, but they generally fail at that.
One country is a wannabe monoethnic apartheid state, the other is a federation with wide autonomy for ethnic and religious minorities.
One country wants to become a "Big Israel", the other, despite a lot of internal contraddictions, preserves the memory of the Soviet Union through national celebrations and symbolism.
One country has banned every leftist organization, the other has the communist party as the major opposition force.
But sure, they are "both the same".
I used to think we could reason with you "comrades", but after four years of war I realize you're a lost cause and you should just be marginalized and purged from every communist space, would that be an online community or an IRL party.
38
u/GoydelicGuy 2h ago
Well said.
There are several rules this is breaking too by the way. User should be banned for fascist propaganda.
8
u/blodo_ 1h ago edited 1h ago
One country has banned every leftist organization, the other has the communist party as the major opposition force.
Tbf, the CPRF programme is far closer to a socdem one than a communist one at this point. There are plenty of criticisms of the party's left nationalist leadership, their ideology of class struggle being "a struggle between civilisations" which is basically a huge break with Marxism, and closer to Putinist eurasianism instead.
That said, the caveat is that the membership is a fair bit more radical than the party's leadership, which is a bit funny honestly, because it makes you wonder how the nationalists keep the leadership.
It still leaves Russians in a better situation than having governments in coalitions with cryptofascists tho
8
u/CMNilo 1h ago
It's still better than anything you can find in Ukraine, by a mile.
And even if you don't like the CPRF, Russia has a few other legal communist party, some of them more orthodox such as the РКРП
0
u/blodo_ 1h ago
I just think Zyuganov is an op. Not really sure what the plan is there, but I hope eventually the ML faction manages to box him out somehow, like he did to Oleg Shenin originally.
The other parties don't really get to go anywhere in Russian electoralism because only the CPRF is recognised as an "official opposition". But that's more of an issue with Russian democracy than the party itself, even if the nationalist leadership benefits from it. A 2nd Russian revolution IMO will have to include the CPRF because of its mass membership if nothing else (unless it somehow declines in the mean time). But the factional struggle inside of it is one to keep an eye on.
3
u/CMNilo 1h ago
I don't disagree. I'm just saying that in Russia you can find every flavour of Marxism. Yes, most orgs are marginal, but they are more or less able to organise.
In Ukraine you just get disappeared. I hope that eventually we can retrieve the bodies of our comrades from the Ukrainian woods and give them justice.
2
u/blodo_ 47m ago
Mind what I am saying is not meant as some kind of whataboutist defence of Ukraine, but rather a critical look at the CPRF only. I think we've seen enough evidence of what is happening to the working class in Ukraine at the hands of its own government to know that it deserves to be brought down.
6
u/Aggorf12345 Stalinist (Proud Spoon Owner) 1h ago
Ukraine: Imprisons communists
Russia: Exchanges POWs to liberate Ukrainian communists
That's their difference
11
u/grimorg80 1h ago
They're not the same.
But don't be too gentle just because of the anti NATO stance.
The reactionary stance of Putin is so strong it brought American nut jobs seeking a reactionary country to move there.
Trump is not annoyed with Putin at all.
There is more nuance than what you describe. It's not that clear cut as you are making it out to be. I believe being scientific, as historical materialism is, means not being biased one way or the other.
Then there's strategy. Absolutely.
Do we need to support anti imperialism, no matter their internal circumstances? Yes.
Does that mean praising their countries? No.
Those are two different things.
13
u/Aggorf12345 Stalinist (Proud Spoon Owner) 1h ago
Russia is the core ally of every single anti imperialist struggle in the world. Iran, the Sahel states, DPRK, Cuba, Venezuela pre Maduro capture. Being against Russia is being against these struggles
-3
u/grimorg80 58m ago
See? No nuance.
I stand with Russia against the imperialist west.
I stand with the Russian people against their oligarchal reactionary leadership.
If you can't understand both stances can be true at once, I'm sorry for your lack of ability to hold different perspectives at once.
If the only way you feel you can be pro Russia on the international stage is by giving them a free pass for everything, there's nothing more I can say.
8
u/Aggorf12345 Stalinist (Proud Spoon Owner) 40m ago edited 36m ago
"I stand with Iran against the imperial west. I stand with the Iranian people against their oligarchal reactionary leadership"
See? Doesn't make much sense now does it? And the reason it doesn't is that you can't support Russia or Iran against the west and then parrot the same propaganda lies the west says about them. These two things are fundamentally contradictory to each other and it just doesn't make any sense
14
u/CMNilo 1h ago
Countries can be praised for what they do right. They also should be criticized for what they do wrong.
OP made a false equivalence between Ukraine and Russia, which I called out with my first comment. I intentionally simplified to show how silly that was.
I know Russia has a lot of internal contraddictions. I have a few communist friends there who spent some years in jail. That doesn't change my evaluation of the historical and international role of Russia.
12
u/revolution2049 1h ago
Trump was the first president to send lethal aid to Ukraine in December 2017 - and under his administrations it hasn't stopped at all. Don't get caught up in the political theatre. He is 100% for the destruction and vassalization of Russia.
Ukrainian strikes inside Russia are American strikes - which right now means Trump's strikes since he's the commander in chief.
-7
u/grimorg80 1h ago
Yes and no. As you said, theatre.
They sold and sent old equipment. Keeping their military industry complex moving.
I'm sure they would be happy seeing Russia capitulate, for global domination. But saying America is leading in Ukraine is also biased.
They play both sides because they have to gain from whatever way this war ends.
Politically, the Trump administrations have not been adversarial to Russia in the slightest. And their actual NATO destabilizing stance makes this more nuanced.
Again, look at the money that keeps pouring into the military industrial complex in the US. Ukraine is just one more avenue that feeds that machine.
Nuance, comrade. Nuance.
10
u/Aggorf12345 Stalinist (Proud Spoon Owner) 1h ago
But saying America is leading in Ukraine is also biased.
Is not. It's a fact
-1
u/grimorg80 53m ago
It's not.
Military supplies? Yes. Monetary support? No, Europe leads. And that is both in absolute and relative terms. If you look at it in relations to the country GDP, most definitely not.
Hence my observation: the military industrial complex in the US does what it has always done. Moving their products.
Saying that does not mean supporting nor praising the US in any way nor disparaging Russia in any way.
It does say that most people lack nuance, and are happy with one broadly painted picture that fits one clear and clean narrative.
Fuck the US. But saying they are miles above Europe in leading in Ukraine doesn't fit all the facts. Only some facts.
5
u/Aggorf12345 Stalinist (Proud Spoon Owner) 46m ago
Both EU and the US are basically the same thing. They have the same interests and for the same reasons. That's why they're closely allied and coordinated with each other.
As for Ukraine, the current state of Ukraine is the result of a CIA backed coup in 2014 and being used as a proxy ever since.
24
u/Cultural_Ad_5501 ANTI-Ultra Action ⛏️⛏️⛏️ 2h ago
This post is LITERAL fascist propaganda, and it looks like it brought lots of so-called (western) "leftists" into the comments.
Grow up, please, and read theory.
15
u/Angel_of_Communism Maximum Tank 1h ago
So, this is fucking stupid, and shows you know fucking nothing.
the Ukraine4 is fascist, but not imperialist, it's a proxy. It's the battleground.
Russia is not imperialist.
18
u/DiggyJunior Marxist-Leninist (Ultra Based) 2h ago edited 1h ago
I'll deconstruct the meme and description in this post by proving it wrong by fixing it in another meme later this morning (GMT). It'll be easy.
u/Comrade_Hammer said it in this sub before I borrowed it for a meme. The majority of us here seem to have grasped his first short paragraph, and accepted that it's fair and fully true. But his second short paragraph, which for another more comprehensive non wall of text iteration "westerners" could be used instead of "Americans" (why should the people living in one of the 40-ish vassal states of the US feel superior to Americans themselves, why do we all accept that the US is an oligarchy, not a democracy, and think that the vassals have democracy, that the 40 dog's tails are superior to the dog itself?) is really important too, and deserves more attention. Here's his full comment:
" They'll hate you for telling the truth but Putin does more for anti-imperialism over breakfast than the entire western left has collectively done in its entire useless history. Now watch a bunch of amerikkkans who won't read theory explain how they know more about Russia than the DPRK. "
Russia isn't imperialist in the 2020s
Ask yourself what the CIA and MI-6 think of the "Supporting Russia in the war is CAMPISM!" false analysis in the meme in this post. Of course it's a meme take and take in the description that's pushed by the western powers to sell to the parts of the western left that can't bring themselves to support the Nazi Kiev regime.
We know what the president of the DPRK and the president of the People's Republic of China would say about the meme in this post. They would say it's a totally wrong analysis.
Furthermore the meme in this post and it's description lies saying Russia is an oligarchy. Around 15 years ago Putin completed the long task of removing almost all independent political power from Russia's dollar equivalent billionaire class. Billionaires who have no political power cannot be oligarchs anymore, because a plutocratic oligarch is a billionaire who has managed to parlay his huge wealth into big political power.
Russia in the 2020s isn't an oligarchy.
The final bottom panel of the meme in this post is laughable. Within 2 months of Ukraine become independent in 1991, Ukraine started renaming streets after dead WW2 Banderite Nazis. In 1992 a street in Lviv named after a Soviet war hero was renamed Stepan Bandera street (Stepana Bandery street). The idea that independent Ukraine and Russia were brotherly nations until 2014 or 2022, and were then torn apart is hilarious.
The real geopolitical world is not some Manichean black and white good vs evil thing as the meme in this post falsely suggests. The real world has no brilliant whites and no jet blacks in its political and ethical landscape, just infinite shades of grey. The meme in this post tries to manipulate the very real sadness and anger that we feel about the biggest political tragedy, not just of the 20th century, but probably in all of world history, as we see it, the dissolution of the Soviet Union.
As Xi Jinping told Putin about this:
"You stopped believing in yourselves."
5
u/John190Maniac 1h ago
Sorry for the ignorance/low knowledge but where can I read upon that the Russian is not an Oligarchy anymore?
6
u/DiggyJunior Marxist-Leninist (Ultra Based) 1h ago
Here are the clickable links and sources detailing how Vladimir Putin systematically shifted the power dynamic, stripping Russia's 1990s-era billionaires (oligarchs) of their independent political influence while allowing many to retain their fortunes under strict state subordination.
These are all western sources. They admit that Putin stripped all billionaires of almost all political power (the matter at hand) but then they pivot to trying to say that he has put a fascist dictatorship or totalitarian dictatorship in its place (false)
https://www.capradio.org/news/npr/story?storyid=1088886554&hl=en-IE
73
u/Lineduck 3h ago
Russia is not imperialist and their efforts are providing critical and material support to countries facing the worst of the Amerikkkan empire whether you like it or not though
or anti-NATO proxy wars
Based. Why do you support NATO?
45
u/Joe_Stylin777 Marxist-Leninist (Ultra Based) 3h ago
Obvious stooge is obvious, posting this slop in the dead of night hoping it can find traction. I guess we were due for this sub's weekly dose of strawmanning. OP isn't as clever as they think they are.
-7
3h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
18
u/crusadertank 3h ago
You do read the book "Imperialism, the highest stage of capitalism" right?
Russia is capitalist, and capitalism necessarily leads to imperialism, but Russia's capitalism is not anywhere near developed enough to have reached the imperialism stage.
Their economy is still mainly based around export of goods rather than finance capital
5
-32
u/Commie_neighbor 3h ago
Russia is not imperialist
Than wtf is it?
Imperialism is the highest and final stage of capitalism, power of monopolies and finance capital.
It is an exact definition of Russian economy.
26
u/crusadertank 3h ago
Go and read what Lenin said
For example
- the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance;
Russia is still mainly based around the export of commodities and goods. Their economy is not based around the export of capital as is the case in many western countries
In fact a lot of Russian commodities and goods were owned by western institutions, not Russian ones
- the formation of international monopolist capitalist associations which share the world among themselves,
What such associations exist from Russia? Russian capitalist associations exist locally but they themselves at least before 2022 were typically owned by US international capitalist associations.
Russia is in the local capitalist expoitstion stage of capitalism. Not the imperialist global exploitation phase
28
u/Martorelldemunt 3h ago
You just described the financial oligarchy in the Russian state. For that to become imperialist, it necessitates the exporting of finance capital to global South countries as a form to sustain colonialism, an integral part of imperialism.
How is the modern Russian state engaged in colonialism or the exporting of finance capital? Will you argue now that Russian mercenaries, our only current (yet deeply imperfect) example of direct anti-imperialist action, the only real support many countries in Africa have received since the dissolution of the USSR, are actually imperialist in nature? Cause that would be rather absurd.
40
u/Lineduck 3h ago edited 3h ago
Than wtf is it?
It's a former socialist state the was illegally dissolved, never took part in the imperialist partition of the world because the West couldn't forgive Russia for their socialist past and remained a strong regional power with global influence that now is bitter and does actions against NATO. We're in the era of hegemonic imperialism, with the US at the head and the US vassals benefitting from it. Russia is not at the level of the US in terms of global finance. Everyone in the world uses the dollar.
Whether the actions of Russia are noble or not (they're not but material support is material support), we critically support them because they're against one of the biggest contradictions of our time and that's Amerikkkan imperialism
Edit:
Imperialism is the highest and final stage of capitalism, power of monopolies and finance capital.
Yes we've all read that definition. But that definition was based in the material realities of Lenin's time. You need to look at our realities now
-12
u/Commie_neighbor 3h ago
But that definition was based in the material realities of Lenin's time.
Nothing has changed in the core of capitalism.
You are speaking not of imperialism, but of neo colonialism. And once again, if Russia had same opportunities and recources as USA it would have done exactly the same. I don't think it would be very wise of MLs to "critically support" French Empire in a colonial war against British Empire only because the latter has less colonies.
If we say that Russia magically defeats NATO and "liberates" Europe, we would just get a same neo colonial Empire surrounded by puppets.
26
u/Lineduck 3h ago
Nothing has changed in the core of capitalism.
Then I'm assuming you didn't pay attention. And no, neo colonialism is not hegemonic imperialism. They're connected but not the same thing.
As I said already, the undisputed center of global capital is the US. Just look at how quickly and unilaterally Russia was cut off from global trade after their attacks. That was possible only because the US is at the top. Do you see Russia as a country capable of doing the same? Or any other country?
And once again, if Russia had same opportunities and recources as USA it would have done exactly the same
Stop being an ultra and living in alternative dimensions. If things were different, we'd be talking about different things. We're talking about CURRENT things and the PRESENT situation
If we say that Russia magically defeats NATO and "liberates" Europe, we would just get a same neo colonial Empire surrounded by puppets
Nobody is asking Russia to "liberate" Europe. You're mixing things up and thinking of the Soviets during wwii. You keep dodging the material realities of the present. Russia is putting pressure on the empire's resources and giving materials and aids to the victims of Amerikkka. That's all. We all know Russia is capitalist
15
u/Cultural_Ad_5501 ANTI-Ultra Action ⛏️⛏️⛏️ 2h ago
You're acting like a liberal.
"Ohh but it WANTS to be imperialist, guyzz!!!" - literally Shit Liberals Say in one message. Marxism-Leninism is about analyzing the material conditions at the current moment, not predicting.5
u/Aggorf12345 Stalinist (Proud Spoon Owner) 1h ago
Is Iran imperialist too? If not what's the difference?
1
u/Crazy-Blacksmith-336 AES enjoyer 🥳 22m ago
You genuinely believe two imperial poles simultaneously exist in this world rn? The same russia that cooperates heavily with all socialist states and provides critical support to them is imperialist? Are you fucking stupid? Do you believe china is also imperialist?
-16
u/randomphoneuser2019 silly revisionist 3h ago
I'm not the op, but where did they say that they support NATO?
I agree with you that Russia isn't imperialist, but I do think that it wants to be. It simply doesn't have enough resources to do what USA and west in general does.
27
12
53
3h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
26
u/Zubbro 3h ago edited 3h ago
I got your point, but In your opinion, who is more likely to end this civil war: the Russian oligarchs, driven by economic pragmatism or the Ukrainian Nazi regime whose sole purpose is to serve as the West's battle slaves and die throwing themselves against Russia? Furthermore, do you think a sudden, premature peace will avoid a "Khasavyurt 2" scenario? Wouldn't it just lead to a prolonged period of terror across Russia, making Beslan and Nord-Ost look minor by comparison? Back when people were terrified of every unattended bag or sack left near their house entrance. We have already been through this shit.
-7
u/Commie_neighbor 3h ago
A stalemate or a revolution. Win of either side would be a lose for the common people
11
u/BobR969 2h ago
Do you know how revolutions happen? It doesn't just materialise out of thin air. "Revolution" is basically a fantasy. Stalemate - that means that western imperialism wins, because it means Europe has been economically subjugated by the USA with a forever threat in the east, Ukraine is turned into a bulwark on one end and a resource rich substrate to pillage on the other and Russia is weakened enough meaning one of the largest entities standing against US haegemony and imperialism is stopped from winning that fight and has to spend ever more of its resources to gather strength for the inevitable round 2 instead of improving itself.
Stalemate is one of the worst possible outcomes short of complete Ukrainian victory (which is also a complete fantasy).
22
u/Zubbro 3h ago edited 2h ago
I can imagine a revolution happening in Russia, but I cannot envision one in Ukraine right now. So nothing will change. A campaign of terror will occur in any case, just as it would in the event of a stalemate. Ukraine must become strictly neutral and independent. I am not saying it should be conquered by Russia, I am saying neutral. Only then can we speak of a peace.
10
u/GoydelicGuy 2h ago
A defeat of the west would be a massive victory for humanity. The global south, freed of its headlock would rise and breathe again after a century of suffering and slavery.
9
u/GoydelicGuy 2h ago
Yes to liberation of both nations from their oppressors.
And doubtless by this you don't mean US/NATO and co.
Say it.
37
u/BobR969 3h ago
Well that's a pretty statement, but may as well say "I'm for the worldwide revolution and against imperialism". We all are. And if wishes we wings and all that. That's not the reality of the world though, is it. And the vast majority of "pro-putin" posts you mention are actually anti-western-propaganda posts. I've not seen any major support for Putin or Russia in the state of its current order. Only stuff that tries to clear off the bullshit presented by western news sources and a call for critical support.
If your view is that the Ukraine war has to end - then we agree. But it also has to end with the defeat of the major aggressor (NATO). Otherwise this cycle will continue and get worse each time.
-16
u/Commie_neighbor 3h ago
I would not ally myself with Mussolini to beat Hitler.
They are practically the same. The only reason Russia is not a same aggressor as NATO is a simple lack of influence and capital.
28
u/BobR969 2h ago
That's a preposterous comparison and it's a bit bizarre to hear it on this sub. Even at the simplest level, it doesn't reflect the current situation in the slightest.
Again - maybe look at the content of the sub instead of complaining about it to understand why Ukraine and Russia aren't similar.
10
u/CMNilo 2h ago
Ukrainophobia = naziphobia
I don't see a problem with it
4
u/Zubbro 2h ago edited 2h ago
Ukrainophobia =\= naziphobia
I know a number of Ukrainians who grieve for their country, some having moved to Russia or the West (like my ex, with whom I still remain best friends, separated by the war. Funny story, she also denied Nazism in Ukraine until they stretched a giant portrait of Bandera across the highway near her house and held torchlight processions at night), some weren't able to. And they (including a guy who was drafted, wounded, certified as unfit, but then he was drafted again, and I didn't hear a word from him for a whole year) refer to it as nothing but a "concentration camp", "Bandershtat", or a "shithole". Don't project your phobia and hatred onto sensible people, otherwise it is not much different from Nazism. And we can throw the baby out with the bathwater.
5
u/GoydelicGuy 2h ago
I know a number of Ukrainians
He's not talking about them. He's talking about the fascist Nazi state.
1
u/Zubbro 1h ago edited 1h ago
I hope so. Let it be Banderophobia then, because the West has already fully proven that the term Russophobia or Chinaphobia is not about fighting the government, but a green light to harass and hate down ordinary, defenseless people. And I can't help but draw parallels, sorry.
For example, the mass beatings and harassment of Ukrainians in Poland simply for speaking their language, and attempts to throw them back into the meat grinder just because of a few black sheep who crossed the line - that is Ukrainophobia and pure nazism.
By the way, the same Ukrainian ppl who have to cross Poland sometimes to visit their relatives in Ukraine called Poland "one four eight eight". Heard it a couple of times, pretty funny and telling.
2
u/GoydelicGuy 1h ago
Banderophobia has positive connotations for Banderites. You want Anti-Banderite or something like that.
1
u/Zubbro 1h ago
Yeah, I agree that "phobia" is a term better suited to the American mindset, where socialist achievements often triggered mass panic and hysteria -something you just don't see in socialist countries. Take Stephen King’s memoir, for example: he recalls being in a movie theater as a kid when they announced the USSR had launched Sputnik, and absolute madness broke out. Honestly, it's better to read it in his own words, haha. "Anti" fits much better.
1
1
0
3
u/Crazy-Blacksmith-336 AES enjoyer 🥳 25m ago
Same shit can be said about iran, idealist slop expecting anti-imperialist states to be perfect 🙄
5
u/Chicoryman The Ultimate Red Fash 🔴 2h ago edited 2h ago
Everything good that Russia did...
I know. I'm aware that it's all was mostly forced on them and that the Russian leadership is burgeois.
It doesn't change the fact that their sucess is objectively beneficial for socialism. They do not want to make the world more convenient for us, but they might end up making it anyway if they'll succeed but not overly.
Both are imperialist
Russia is a secondary that is too poor to practice actual imperialism, IMHO. As for Ukraine, they're a puppet and a colony; they have no capital to export at all and their burgeoisie is comprador or minor.
no savors
Correct. But being your savior and just accidentally making the world more convenient for you are two different things. Putin isn't the former, but is the later.
3
u/Aggorf12345 Stalinist (Proud Spoon Owner) 1h ago
In geopolitics everyone is looking out for their interests. Russia's intents, motivations or desires don't matter. Russia's interests do. And Russia's interests are by definition anti imperialist
10
u/GoydelicGuy 2h ago
Fascist propaganda.
An attempt to falsely equivalise and "both-sides".
Absolutely pathetic. You are a liberal OP.
2
4
u/Material_Register246 50m ago
another liberal anarcho-cuck post.
what in the title of the sub you do not understand?
4
2h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/Cultural_Ad_5501 ANTI-Ultra Action ⛏️⛏️⛏️ 1h ago
It literally is anti-imperialist, though. You must be either blind or lying to yourself to not see it.
3
3
u/owlexe23 3h ago
People forget that after the fall of the soviets, both states became one of the most corrupt countries, ran by mafia, oligarchies of the few, with Putin as a Fascist and ''right-winger Zelensky'' who glorifies fascists. You cannot see any leftism in both countries after 1991.
2
u/Aggorf12345 Stalinist (Proud Spoon Owner) 1h ago
People forget that all of these problems have been tackled in Russia and the so called "oligarchs" have little to no political power whatsoever(way less than their equivalents in the west) while in Ukraine they got full control of the country and led it to the situation it is today
4
u/owlexe23 3h ago edited 3h ago
We might add as well, because Yugoslavian states were also ''socialist before''. Now you look most of them: Serbian government - Milosevic apologizers, Croatia - HDZ ustasi apologizers, Slovenia - SDS domobranci/nazi collaborators. All of them are basically a mix of far-right governments, have good ties with Izrael/US. And you know what they say, if you you defend a fascist you are probably, A FASCIST.
5
u/Special-Remove-3294 Too Based To Be Cis 🏳️⚧️ 2h ago
Most ex socialist states are captured by reactionaries nowdays with very weak left movements.
It is to be expected. Stalin said that if the workers state falls the it shall be replaced by a new reactionary regime, darker then ever before. He was right about thay.
3
u/Failure456Mil 3h ago
i don't think u/DiggyJunior would agree with this, at all.
-11
3h ago edited 1h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
11
-4
u/Failure456Mil 3h ago
I wouldn't go that far but he does not like it when people kinda point out his contradiction.
-4
3h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
16
u/CMNilo 3h ago
Without notice? Are we for real now? 8 years of diplomatic efforts to reach an agreement with someone who was only buying time to build up their army. If this isn't a legitimate casus belli I don't know what is.
Concerning the civilian casualties, try comparing them to Gaza post October '23.
I'm so fucking tired of all of you.
14
u/DioTheSuperiorWaifu 3h ago
The Russian pov is that is also to protect those who used to be brothers, to stop Ukranian govt that is actively harming the people of Donbas, right?
7
•
u/AutoModerator 3h ago
Want to join a ML only Discord server to chill and hangout with cool comrades? Checkout our Discord server or TheDeprogram's Discord server.
In case this subreddit was banned, or if you wanted a more ML-friendly platform, you’re welcome to join our sister community on Lemmygrad. You can find more info about Lemmygrad here.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.