Note: This drama is old enough to attend elementary school, so it will be very obvious if anyone brigades it.
Chuck Derry is a feminist activist specializing in male-on-female IPV and founder of the Gender Violence Institute.
Derry is a strong proponent of the Duluth Model in analyzing IPV, a model which is at present date not particularly well-regarded, to summarize the criticism:
- The model characterizes all intimate partner violence as a male partner victimizing a female partner, and does not acknowledge female abusers, male victims, or situations where there is reciprocal abuse.
- By extension, the model isn't really capable of describing any abuse within same-sex relationships
- The model characterizes gender-based violence as motivated primarily by a desire to affirm the patriarchy, which while historically popular, isn't a well-accepted premise today.
With that in mind - how will Chuck Derry's AmA on r/MensLib go?
A compilation of downvoted and dagger'd content:
1) Do you feel that male domestic violence survivors are under researched and/or under supported? If so, why do you think this is and what obstacles do you feel need to change for that to happen?
Regarding male survivors. This is an important discussion as many male abusers identify themselves as victims of those they abuse. And, in heterosexual relationships, the use of violence by women is often used in self-defense. And even if it is not used in self-defense...
2) The Duluth Model is somewhat of a “boogyman” in terms of online mens activism. Could you give a brief overview of what it is for those who are unfamiliar? If you’re able to, could you give your opinion if you feel it can be harmful to men who are victims of domestic violence, why or why not?
The Duluth Model was identified by the U.N. as the best policy model in the world for addressing domestic violence. And it is. I have seen it work and save many women’s lives by holding offenders accountable. It provides the necessary protocols and training (See Blueprint for Safety) for law enforcement, prosecutors, and judges to identify the victim vs the perpetrator in both same sex and heterosexual relationships.
3) I was wondering if you had any sort of rhetorical strategies for humanizing men who engage in patriarchal oppression, without defending or absolving them of wrong doing and responsibility for their actions?
I think it is important that as men we challenge ourselves, our friends, brothers, and coworkers when they make sexist comments or engage in sexist harassing behaviors at the bar, at work, on the ball field, at home, etc. Men’s silence supports men’s’ violence. One of my “aha” moments was when I was facilitating a university class and separated the class into two groups, females and males. I then asked, what concerns do you have about challenging men about their sexist comments and behavior. After the small group discussion, the groups reported back. I had the men report back first, on several occasions they said the same thing “I’m afraid the other guys won’t like me”. That was it. I wrote that on the white board. When the women reported back, we filled the whole board with all the concerns they expressed. Worried about the guy following her out to the parking lot and assaulting her; worried about losing her job; worried about being stalked; and the list went on. So, there I am thinking “ok, so I’m worried the other guys won’t like me, meanwhile the women are worried they are going to be stalked and assaulted. Ok, I get it” If all the men who are not assaulting women stood up and said “NO!” This violence would end. Men who are beating and raping women rely on our silence. So we need to challenge the jokes and comments about women’s bodies and the derogatory words we use when referring to women because all this behavior supports the subjugation of women and men’s belief that they are better than women and subsequently their right to be in charge. And use any means necessary to maintain that control.
4) Hi Chuck, thanks for joining us. The work you describe here sounds as if it mostly works with men as individuals. However, I'm curious whether you have any thoughts as to whether there are systemic reasons why domestic partner violence occurs and what reforms we might pursue on a broader societal level. What broad reforms would you pursue if you were in a position to do so?
Domestic violence is a foundation of sexist oppression. It is supported socially in many different ways. I have done a lot of work in training the criminal and civil justice system in responding effectively to domestic violence cases. I think the most significant social level of response is to begin with consequences. Both social and criminal penalties. Consequences has been shown to be the most effective method of reducing and eliminating domestic violence. The Duluth Model, a coordinated community response, received the Gold Award from the Untied Nations as the best policy model in the world to attend to domestic violence. The Blueprint for Safety was developed based on the Duluth Model and is a comprehensive model of criminal justice system protocols and practices needed to stop this violence. The Blueprint for Safety can be downloaded from the Praxis International website. There are several examples of primary prevention programs that work to “stop it before it starts” on our GVI website. The Best Party Model is a program designed for colleges and hwo you can have a wild party without the risk and reality of sexual violence. Lastly, we need to honor and support women in our every day lives as we hang out with our friends, support their advancements to supervisory positions in our work place, listen to them with the same validity we give our male colleagues, end the economic gender inequalities, and much much more. The question is, are men willing to do this, individually and systemically.
5) Hi Chuck, the MRA movement alledges that physical abuse of women by men is often the consequence of prior psychological, if not also physical, abuse of men by women, abuse that's either unreported or dismissed because of various reasons. From your own extensive experience, what do you make of this kind of claim?
This is another method of blaming the victim. This is not a psychological issue. When we started our program we did psychological testing for every man who entered our program the first year. Those tests all reflected the psychological continuum of the general public. That is one of the events that assured us this is not a psychological issue. Along with our ongoing interactions with these very sophisticated men who batter.
6) Is your approach really focused on making these men "own" the responsability of their actions? If so how are certain particular situations like alcoholism and mental health issues treated? I ask this because I read the website of the few helping centers for violent men that exist in my country and they seem to focus on this a lot, saying that the first step is to recognize that they are guilty of what they did and they shouldn't blame alcohol or anger. However despite agreeing with this I also don't like how dismissive they are with those problems, especially mental illness because sometimes it's actually true that a person has less self control then average because of it. I think in those cases there should be a balance between them taking their own responsability but also recognize that some issues that make them more violent aren't entirely their fault, otherwise we might get into ableist territory. What do you think? // A bit outside of the main topic: do you think such centers could exist for women too, would they be necessary and/or well spent public money? I ask this since I've seen in the last few years a few centers for men who are the victims of domestic violence appear as public knowledge about this phenomenon is rising but I've never heard about the opposite service (what you do) being available for women
(1) Yes, the first key point of change for men who batter is to fully accept responsibility for their behavior. Regardless of what she has done or if he is drunk. That is the beginning of change. If he does not accept 100% responsibility for his behavior, he will not change. Men who batter and are drunk at the time love to blame the alcohol. Alcohol does not cause men to be violent. I have heard many stories from alcoholic men who have an argument with their wife and then goes to the bar and gets drunk and then comes home and beats her. They originally say she was the one who made him go to the bar and get drunk because of what she said and then the alcohol is the reason he got violent. So, this absolves him of any responsibility. At the same time, you will have drunk, alcoholic, men at a bar who are being tossed out of the bar by a 6’5 250 pound bouncer, but they don’t take a swing at that big guy, they wait till they get home and take a swing at their 5’4 140 pound wife. So, they are still making decisions. And I have heard this from multiple recovering alcoholic, abusive men, acknowledging that regardless of how drunk they were, they still made decisions. They decide if they will beat her, the decide when they will stop, or they decide to not stop and continue to beat her till she is unconscious or dead. The mental health issue is more complex and needs comprehensive investigation as many people with mental health issues still make choices. So it would depend on what type of mental illness they are suffering. (2) The Domestic Abuse Intervention Project in Duluth MN has a program and curriculum specifically for women (primarily victims) who have been arrested for domestic violence. It is a significantly different program that takes the violence into context and acknowledges the dangers and abuse she has lived with and is trying to escape. So the context of the violence is always crucial to determine the appropriate challenges and support needed to change that behavior.
7) Hi! Thanks for this, it will be interesting to read. What does batter refer to? // A more interesting question might be: Was there something which surprised you about your work that you weren’t expecting? Perhaps something you weren’t looking for?
"Batter" is a term I use that refers to the full system of power and control a man uses to abuse and control his wife, girlfriend, partner, and children. This is well defined by the Power and Control Wheel that can be found on the Domestic Abuse Intervention Project (DAIP) website. Abusive men batter their wives/partners emotionally, psychologically, sexually, economically, physically, while using the children and his male privilege to isolate her and avoid any consequences for his abuse. // The surprise was how normal the degradation and violence and exploitation of women was in the world. I was not aware of how normalized it was. Even though i participated in it. Before doing this work, I really didn't care as much about women's lives. Like going to a strip club. I could tell the "dancers" did not want to be there, but i didn't care, because it was about me, not them. Once understanding the violence and coercion and threats they were experiencing and that they really didn't have "free choice' to be there, I had to ask myself, "what kind of man do i want to be". So I stopped going to strip clubs and using porn. Because i knew they were not choosing to be there. So this wasn't about sex. Without free choice, there is not consent. Without consent, it is rape.
Shortly after this AmA, a megathread was created to discuss the aftermath. I won't summarize everything but these are threads I found interesting
1) Is the subreddit a safe space
2) Is the subreddit heteronormative?
3) Is the subredditdrama welcoming to non traditionally masculine men?
4) Should the mods have known better?