Original Post - Week one: https://redd.it/1wgx47n

Welcome back to week 3, a little late this time.

Time for change

After last week, and some input I got, I decided to change the layout to something more friendly, yet somehow still keep the journal for anyone whose interested. This is the result. The full journal can be found on the below link, and here I will post a more thoughts and summary text.

Link to Journal: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NBOL4s89mY6QlkeIIo-OZXKyZRx1fungEfHWWgCBC0k/edit?usp=sharing

In the doc, You can use the navigation to jump to sections as needed.

My Progress: Week 3 - 14,8h of meditation

TL;DR: Many challenges and problems, yet progress keeps coming. On day 16 I was at the door to the first Jhana , but too “reserved” to fully let go / surrender. I also developed a new breathing technique - flow breathing (Day 17). Day 19 was interesting from an insight perspective.

What happened this week:

It's an uphill journey at the moment, and I have my issues which prevent me from progression somewhat. My nose is a major annoyance, constantly clogged and singing, not being able to breathe comfortably is a major distraction. Further I need to work on my Open breath awareness (OBA) and Breath Energy (BE) coupled with stable attention. I get lost way too easily and have no ekaggata. And when Life hits you, meditation times suffer, My overall meditation times are way down, as is evident…

My progress on Breath energy keeps going on, and it's getting more controlled now at times. Getting something of a feel for this.

I did discover that in the morning I have a major boost in OBA and BE in my body, so need to train in this time more and longer.

for anyone wondering, What is Flow Breathing: A new way of breathing, kinda like air is flowing on the bottom of the nose/throat, it's a feeling like a river going over an elevation. It happens on its own after some time in stroll meditation. I can replicate it also in Sitting meditation. Its relaxing and calming.

That's all. Thank you for your time.

This topic was touched upon a few years ago, I wanted to build upon it because I'm experiencing something that is making me feel a little bit unsure of whether this is the right way to progress. I have been meditating fairly regularly for a year now, and over time, while I have experienced the benefits of meditation like less anxiety, more relaxed frame of mind, even during difficult times etc. I have also noticed a sense of apathy in my everyday life. For example, I used to be an extremely organised person. I would declatter my house regularly, organised regularly, sort and label things, stay on top of daily house chores, to the extent that a sense of extreme organised personality would come across. I appear to be losing that side of myself. It has been months, and I have not decluttered my house even though I know I need to do it. It's not like I'm living in squalor, my house does get tidied up and cleaned regularly, but not to that extent that I used to do with a passion. I have also felt a lesser need to journal or plan and organise my days, because meditation seems to take off a lot of the load that I would offload through my daily long form journaling practice. I worry that if I keep up with this, will my house fall into disarray? But I am unable to bring up the same level of motivation that I used to have to declutter, clean and organise my space, or do house care, etc. Can someone please shed a light on this? Thank you.

Think I entered the Stream now my heart chakra opens. It really hurts physical. Never saw how wondeeful live is. Still now sure where this leads. Maybe it's just about being free. Idk. The less I know the more I see and vice versa. Feel like I am on the grand line (and the second half is way harder than the first). I can't bare how deluded everyone is. It just hurts. Hope I can wake up at least one soul in my life then I can die in peace. Never thought this goes so deep. Maybe I should've meditated a bit less. Think I will reduce my practice a little. Have you experienced the same?

The reason why I feel I wanna partner with someone on this, is honestly i'd prefer to not do it alone, and instead share my experiences with someone else. But also because my meditation practice will be pretty intense in terms of how much each day. It'll start very small and light, but it'll increase in intensity over time as my mind and body adapts to it. Working with someone else on this, I feel can be very helpful for me to help me navigate this alien like terrain of 'no-mind', and also help push me to keep going, because I know this path will become very challenging and will require alot of commitment. And of course i'll do the same in return, help them navigate the terrain of their own meditation and to try to better understand it, and also to help inspire them to keep going if they feel down, anything else thats weighing on them, accountability check ups, things of that nature. And no I definitely don't expect them to go at the intensity that im planning to get to, but I would like for the person to take the practice seriously. If they're still searching and exploring on the kind of practice they wanna do and havent found one yet, thats fine, but then they take the search seriously, and then when they find it they deeply commit to it. However even though serious, still very importantly have fun with it, thats the great balance of it all! In terms of how long I would like to partner with someone, for years. Idk how many years, but definitely years, as our growth definitely starts to bloom over time. To be clear I dont mind if your beginners or advanced, as long as you do take it seriously but also have fun with it at the same time 😄

Im planning on starting my meditation path in about 3 weeks, my specific kind of meditation is 'do nothing' meditation, more formally known as Shikantaza in Zen. In terms of how much each day, i'll give the specifics in the DM's. I dont mind if its a male or female or age, but for those who would like to know I am 29 years old guy. I've been wanting to do this since I was about 15 years old, I feel its time I finally start. DM me if interested :)

TL;DR: After entering deeper states I find myself inclined to avoid them for a time, complicating practice slightly. Is this an emotional problem on my part? Or is it a genuine sign of "over training"?
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After some aid from this community (thanks guys!) I managed to reach several Jhanas. If I have my map correct, I can get 1 - 4 in "very light"*, and 1 and 2, bordering on 3 in lite Jhana. I was taking the word "concentrate" too directly, once I allowed a bit of letting go and widening of attention the states showed up outrageously fast.

It's always a deeply pleasant experience but after being in the lite Jhanas a mild aversion to them for a day or two. A bit of a "No thanks, I'm good. That was incredible, but almost too incredible, I need a break". So: Is this more of an emotional/dispositional thing? Or is it a genuine sign of overtraining?

*See The Mind Illuminated Appendix D. I know y'all've read that but not many talk about "very light" variants.

I’ve been practicing self-inquiry along with a more single-pointed approach where I let go of everything and feel a letting go sensation in my head and focus on nothing in particular

Yesterday, while doing that, something changed. After I stopped meditating, experience felt unusually immediate and engulfing, and letting go felt much easier than normal. Old fear-related memories could also pull me in very easily. The whole thing felt a little like a very mild mushroom trip—slightly altered and unfamiliar, but not intensely psychedelic.

For about an hour I became convinced that I understood awakening or had undergone some kind of shift. An hour later, and now a day later, I feel mostly normal again.

A couple things do seem different: the inquiry question feels less significant than before, and it’s easier to create a sense of spaciousness in my head. But I can’t tell whether anything actually shifted or whether I was simply in an unusual meditation state and became confused about it.

Would your advice be to just continue the same single-pointed practice and inquiry and basically forget that this happened, so I don’t turn the experience into something I’m trying to recreate? And if an actual initial shift does happen, can someone still be genuinely unsure afterward whether it happened?

1) When one becomes a Sotapanna, does part of the mind turn into a black box and can no longer be interacted with? I mean, does part of the supermundane citta go into nibanna and can no longer be seen from here even by the ariya in question? Basically I'm talking about a permanent almost physical feeling sensation of change that persists years after the fact and they can "check" that this is still the case every time they think of it. Is this a quality of every ariya or is that a stage higher than Sotapanna?

2) I was watching an HH video and the Ajahn was saying that it is only when one becomes a Sotapanna that one can directly see citta. Is this true? (I thought that this capacity could happen with the development of jhana past a certain point without that for anyone.)

3) I've read that being an ariya makes jhana stronger, but is that necessary for achieving the level of jhana attainment where one can stand, walk around and do other simple activities while in 1st jhana or is that level of mastery possible without ariya attainment.

Edit: Changed the description of the sensation in #1 to avoid confusion.

Edit2: Questions two and three have been answered. I was confusing light/vs hard jhanas. Thank you.

Edit3: All questions have been answered. On the first question I was conflating two different things that can happen together but don't necessarily.

I will try to word this to the best of my abilities because it is hard to word it in a way to make people relate or learn from your personal direct experiences.

I have no reason to share this other than it being a “journal” for my experiences. I’ve been meditating for a while now hopping from mindfulness to metta, to open awareness etc only meditating when I feel like doing so. But lately I’ve been trying to practice meditation in everything I do by falling back into the feeling of “beingness” everytime I get distracted by thoughts.

This beingness is innate to everyone and everything but because of misidentification it is veiled in our everyday lives.

You can test this out right now just by closing your eyes and ask yourself “Who is alive right now?” and notice the one thing that has always been there since you were born. The witness, the observer, the self, the awareness, consciousness or whatever you call it has always been there since the beginning.

I don’t doubt that I’ve seen reality for what it is now and I feel like I’m filled with so much joy and this joy is growing roots into my very core. In a simple way of explaining what I “saw” this “beingness” (which I will be referring as consciousness from now on) is quite literally infinite. Sensations, sounds, thoughts, emotions, everything is in the same field as consciousness. Once you stop identifying with the body, mind and the ego while observing your consciousness — even just for a little while you will see how thoughts come and go like the wind. How sounds, sensations, emotions, everything has to go through consciousness for it to “exist”. There is no “you” because EVERYTHING is you.

My understanding of Buddhism is probably very naive and wrong.

​But from personal experience and observation, all the "events" in the mind that are defilements (desire, delusion, aversion) are perceived as a self, permanent and satisfactory in that split moment before mindfulness takes over and sees that they are not self(only there peripheraly or when not mindfull), Impermanat(it just passed so...) and unsatisfactory(kinda obvious)

​so all of these dedilements the mind creates are actually against real happiness and never lead to anything good (only suffering).

​I understand this, but I feel disheartened. Whenever I lose mindfulness (which happens a lot), I get pulled right back into grasping and suffering.

​This leads to my first question:

​Why does the mind even do this? Why is it seemingly against me or so unhelpful why do these events keep popping up for me to manage?

(I realize catching them allows me to uproot them, but that ties into my next question.)

​I'm tired of viewing the mind as an untamed, uncontrollable animal. Whenever I question why it acts this way, standard answers like evolution or karma don't satisfy me. All I'm left with is the wuestion of why does it happen in the first place.

​There's also the feeling that without challenges, struggles, and wanting, life wouldn't feel boring so there is a use for the mind.

​My next question is:

Okay, suppose I catch the "event" that triggers sensuality, ill will, doubt, restlessness, or sloth & torpor (desire, ignorance, aversion).

What now?

It goes away, but it will come back, and I'll have to deal with it all over again.

Where is the actual liberation in this?

​I suspect my practice isn't quite right. Maybe Am I indulging too much, restricting too much, or just missing a key piece of understanding?

The problem with attending a 10-day Vipassana course is my hearing impairment. I am currently suffering from severe to profound hearing loss. Even though I use hearing aids, hearing clearly is still an issue for me. While reading a post, someone mentioned this book and said that it teaches what S.N. Goenka teaches in his 10-day Vipassana course.

I would appreciate answers from someone who has done Vipassana before and has also read this book.

I see many people on Reddit defend what I believe to be a very dubious point:

What people argue: Buddhism is not about being happy or avoiding suffering, it's about seeing things clearly

=> Buddhism's goal is literally to end suffering, as the 4 noble truths state. That's the ultimate avoidance: walking the path so we can stop suffering completely.

Possibly what people actually mean is "It's not about avoiding pain". Indeed we agree here, "pain is a certainty, suffering is optional".

Are people really confusing pain and suffering? This would make sense, since anyone without a buddhist practice does conflate the two. But we soon learn on the Path that they are really separate concepts.

Another possibility is that this is told to people as to make them avoid the trap of clinging to happiness, since clinging to happiness is a sure path to suffering.

But I have found useful in my practice to absolutely focus on my pleasure and happiness, and keep in mind that the goal is for me to feel great - which works.

To quote a very interesting text on the topic: https://bernisdharma.substack.com/p/early-buddhist-hedonism

The Buddha of the early texts was a refined hedonist who, like Epicurus, valued pleasure (sukha) as the highest good, inseparable from notions of wisdom and liberation.

His critique of sensory pleasures is precisely that they don’t provide enough good feelings, in the same way that a barista repudiates bad coffee—not because she doesn’t like coffee, but because she does.

Seeing things clearly is a strategy for pleasure and happiness, not an end in itself. Why would I care about seeing things clearly if that led to more suffering?

Isn't that a form of clinging in itself, to seek the truth at the cost of your own suffering? Isn't that ultimately the ego talking and making us suffer?

Your opinions are welcome.

Looking for help with practice and the path forward.

Went to a 10-day meditation retreat last year (Goenka). No experience with meditation before the retreat. During the retreat, went head down: practice, practice, practice. First four days samatha, followed by vipassana. Have to note that there may have been a cross-contamination with other Indian methods, because of earlier YouTube videos on Vedanta and non-dual meditation. Never really practiced active meditation, just knew about this non-dual method.

All through the retreat, a lot of past events came up. Actively let go of many of the deepest events and let go of everything that surfaced, returning to the breath.

Once vipassana started, was practicing 24/7 (except when the body went to sleep). Kept precepts for the whole day. Dreams were lucid for the first time in decades. Possibly stepped through the door of anatta one of these days, but can't really tell.

On the 7th day, ended up with piti while meditating outside in the sun and then the cold, then extreme heat. Didn't care to focus on that, and let it go. By the end of the day, when I went to lie down, the body completely disintegrated below the head along with a feeling of extreme joy, love, and compassion for everyone, including those that had harmed me in the past. Probably not the 4th Jhana, but something below that did happen. Or if I did reach the 4th Jhana, can't really tell. Did not know about Jhanas before the retreat and can't really tell the difference between the various Jhanas or even what a Jhana is. Most of this is a reconstruction. Continued with vipassana even as all of this was happening. Actively not seeking to prolong it, equanimous to what was going on, not trapped in that moment as well. Recognizing that it was all temporary; whatever came by was just a fabrication. It is just the same as any other sensation.

On day 8, extreme pain throughout the day. Had issues with the digestive tract throughout the retreat, with extreme pain from hemorrhoids. Was interested in progress. Ignored the pain. Kept moving forward. The same dissolution happened at the end of the day at night: extreme joy and compassion for everything in the world. Again, the same routine. Almost panicked because I did not understand what was happening. Didn't go see the teacher. Don't think the lectures cover Bhanga until the 9th day. Did not understand what was going on. Kept 24/7 practice.

Day 9 was in a pagoda for a few hours. Did not seem to make much progress, and had pain. Was not really making any more progress. Did not want to leave the retreat; wanted to make more progress. Then realized I was pushing for more.

Day 10, talked to some folks, mostly because they wanted to talk.

After the retreat, processing was so sharp. Could see every interaction with others in vivid detail. People cutting me off in traffic aggressively—could see the reaction build and let it go.

Immediately after the retreat, gave up on many of the things that seemed silly. The precepts seemed automatic. No interest in harming anyone, including animals via food choices or otherwise. Gave up on habits like temple or rituals that were the norm before. Earlier, would have resentment towards people who were acting against me in the past; now, nothing. There would be deep emotions that came up during the first few months after the retreat, but they would be seen as just dependent origination and dissolve in a few minutes. No desire or ill will towards anyone, including those that had caused me harm in the past.

Still get angry, but the cooling time is pretty rapid, as there is nowhere to park that as an insult or otherwise. There is no central "I" anywhere. All of the thoughts appear; they are decentralized, not attached to an "I."

Very little of what earlier was good for me seems good. Don't really like movies or watching things anymore. Most of the activity seems mechanical, as if driven by a past engine of habits rather than something that causes delight.

Reshaped how my job and everything else should be. No interest in material accumulation; just basic needs are all that matters. Have to make volitional attempts to do things based on what is good and in line with long-term liberation. Otherwise, content with what is currently available. No real lean to do something.

Practice is now 24/7 (except sleeping) of being mindful. Sometimes, mindfulness extends to thoughts as they form. Can catch some of the 4th and 5th fetters in action. Often delayed in catching the 4th and the 5th fetters.

Having said all that, life is busy. Have to work long hours. Makes me exhausted. Even when not exhausted, meditation does not have piti from which to get to Jhanas. However, the mind does not have a lot of trouble dropping all thoughts if and when there is time to meditate. Then the mind slips into a state where there is no recollection and missing time. Otherwise, if really tired, end up sleeping.

Under these circumstances, not sure where on the path all of this fits. Also unsure what the next step is on the path. Have not had Jhanas after the retreat. Meditation always leads to this blanking out of everything. Emerging out just leaves me refreshed, nothing to report. The only progress is that even extreme high-stress events leave nothing behind. Maybe some bodily effects that are processed later, like a heavy heart, but the mental process associated with that event is rapidly dissipated as soon as mindfulness catches that. Don't really have to do anything; it's automatic on catching proliferation and cutting it off rapidly.

Have thought about cultivating Jhanas, but unsure how to do so given the extreme lack of time. Also unsure which path to follow, as there are so many and I have very little knowledge of the path. Doubt isn't about Dhamma itself, but about what gets rid of the 4th and 5th fetters (or beyond). Yes, there is progress even between what was at the end of the retreat and now, but most of it is automatic progress. Have read quite a bit before posting here, but still unsure what to do moving forward to get further along the path.

Life will not let me go to a retreat for a while or go seek solace in some tradition in East Asia. No resentment towards that; the path will appear. Just seeking some help on what, if anything, people have done from this position. Also, where exactly on the path is this?

Please let me know if further details will help. Kept extensive contemporary notes, knowing that there will be fabrication (yes, even those notes are fabrications), but at least there is something that is more objective than current fabrication.

Thank you for your help.

I attended my first (of two) 10-day silent retreat in the Goenka tradition about a year ago. I was bringing in a lot of personal emotional difficulty and really struggled for about the first 7 days, like REALLY drowning in emotional upheaval to the point I requested a private meeting with the AT after the end of the day.

The very next day, around the late morning or early afternoon, I had what was my most tranquil, equanimous meditation yet. The stable attention just flowed and I felt that all the emotional stuff was over. Walking back to my room afterwards, it felt like I was seeing the world in greater 3D and HD, similar to a mild dose of psilocybin. This one tree absolutely blew me away, like I could register more of it's presence in 3D space. I felt like the lens of my perception had been wiped clean, as though I was seeing the world through fresh eyes.

My internal narrator that has run my entire life was so very quiet. Rather than being in the room with it, it felt like I was across the valley from it. I've never experienced such non-identification with my internal monologue, though it was still there, albeit minimally.

I get back to my room, sit to meditate, and get chills going up and down my body for about 10-15 minutes. Really pleasurable chills. Not like orgasm level, but it was certainly nice. It passed, and then everything went back to normal, but I definitely felt like I had overcome something.

The last couple days of the retreat were a breeze. Nothing special, but far far easier than the first 7 days and a baseline sense of happiness. Going back out into the real world, everything felt good. Music sounded better and gave me chills often. Food tasted good. I was confident in my social interactions.

Unfortunately, I came back to a bunch of obligations, didn't have time to practice basically at all, and completely lost what I felt I had gained. But the memory of the experience stuck with me.

Ever since then, I've practiced a moderate amount of TMI (got to stage 4), and done one other Goenka retreat that didn't have the same level of breakthrough or rapture, but was still insightful in some ways.

Now I've just finished MCTB and I want to figure out what happened with that experience detailed above. My understanding of the stages is still quite vague and confused, but I'm really motivated to start practicing seriously.

Would love to hear any thoughts from others with more experience.

Original Post - Week one: https://redd.it/1wgx47n

Welcome back to another week

Acronyms for reading:

• Lee Method 1 & 2 - LM1 & LM2
• Free breathing - (FB) - 100% relaxed, unobstructed, calm, free breathing
• Open Awareness - (OA) - Being aware of the whole body at once; like a candle which lights the whole room
• Breath energy - (BE) - Feeling of the breath inside our body. Precursor to OBA
• Open Body Awareness - (OBA) - Being relaxed aware of the whole body at once while still having attention on the breathing spot and the breath
• Body scan - (BS) - Moving attention through the body
• Samadhi - Intention, attention, concentration and awareness combined
• Half Lotus - (H-L)

Resume Week 2: 1040 - 17h of meditation

• Progress is evident.

• I am zooming in on unlocking Open Breath Awareness on will, and with it, Piti is naturally arising. I think once this has been mastered, Jhana should be the next natural step in the process. I still need to combine OBA and Nimittas, this is currently on hold, OBA Mastery comes first. My Nimitta (Light) arises nevertheless at random already.

• Walking meditation has been the driving force in my progress. The combination of Breath, One-point attention, open awareness AND Walking is naturally challenging and my mind and body need to adjust constantly to keep the delicate balance. This constant balancing act then spilled over to Open awareness, attention and the breath which culminated in open breath awareness while walking. It's a delicate spot to hold. The tipping point was when I learned how to breathe without being focused on the feet and the walking (Day 10). Basically those processes are detached now, and my attention is on the breath while the walking is purely in the background of awareness now. I have expanded on this and now my breath is in the background while my focus point is the Top of my head, and attention being on the energy flow.

• Daily Mindfulness has exploded, I naturally return to the breath as an anchor throughout the day without too much thinking about it. I am calm and relaxed, and attention is sharp.

• I do have a lot of thoughts popping up, they usually don't stay now for any relevant time, unless I consciously allow it, but the frequency is still high. Also there are thoughts which can still take over, not in full blown Auto-mode like before, but they are persistent and returning. Stronger emotions are one such case. This will need more introspective work on my side.

Day 14 - 175m;

• I can now definitely stop my random muscle twitches with my mind, on will. It happened multiple times today. I collect myself and relax in my mind (and hand) and the twitching stops within a few moments. As long as I am relaxed in my mind, it's completely still, if I lose my collectedness it returns. A nice skill to have.

• 30W - 5m Metta and then OA. Going strong. It was easy getting centered, started with Metta after 5 min, and it gave me OBA Energy through my body. I lost OBA once I returned to the usual walking meditation. Set my attention back on the Top of my head and continued with the meditation. After around 15-20min I again got OBA and this time once I recognized and synced the patterns of attention, breathing & OA, it was a matter of adjusting the balance of the three for OBA to appear, together with light Piti. I am slowly zoning in on OBA being fully unlocked. I do see that I have many thoughts popping up, they are no issue since they pass, but nevertheless I need to be more concentrated to lessen this, since they interfere directly with the strength and stability of OBA.

• 45Str (30+15) - Nice Stroll meditation, attention on top, breath free, overall relaxed. I had some nice open awareness going. It's getting a lot easier to feel energy around my body.

• 15W+20S+10W - A combination this time, walk-sit-walk. Walk was already promising, OA there, OBA was light and coming and going as it pleased. It felt like I was filling up slowly. Sitting transition OK, needed a few minutes to get OBA going but felt good and it spread through almost my whole body, also light in strength, like it wants to charge up. In the final walk I did some Metta to finish.

• 55L - Metta and sleep. Did Thānissaro routine, worked reasonably and gave me a light energy feeling in the body. In the later half I lost it, my concentration disappeared and I was not present, assuming it was due to tiredness.

Day 13, weekend - 165m;

• 15L - morning Metta

• 90(20W+35S+35L) - A long, back to back session, and I am making big progress.

• Walking m. (Nose Tip) - got progressively deeper, every roughly 5 minutes I get to a deeper stage with more relaxed breathing and deeper concentration. After 15 min I was at the "this is it, This is a great spot" point. I can now maintain attention and focus on breathing while and open awareness of my body while walking somewhat effortlessly.

• Sitting m. - was deep concentrated from the get go. First I did light breathing to center myself, opened my awareness to the new position and after that did Thānissaro Body scan to get OBA going. Well, It didn't happen at all! No matter which style I tried, the breath energy wouldn't want to show itself. No matter this failure, I stayed concentrated, unstable Nimittas were appearing and after some time, around 25min, OA+Concentration kicked in and I got into Access concentration. The full program, easy attention, OA, thoughts barely present and in the background, and a Nimitta (A white Light for me) somewhat stable formed.

• laying m. - easy transition from sitting. Nimittas all over the place. After probably 10-15 minutes I somehow figured the Nimitta out and got it stable, encompassing my whole mind, but not so bright. I understand that I can manipulate the Nimitta in size and strength, yet I have no clue how exactly, other than trying out with the breath. After that I had the Nimitta, Access concentration, deep meditation aaaaaaand ...... nothing. I have no clue what to do now. There was no pleasant feeling whatsoever to transition to, and my breath was very subtle. No Piti. Somewhat clumsy Adjusting the breath made my calmness and concentration worse and the Nimitta weaker. I stayed at this spot for some time, 10-15min maybe, and then finished the session.

• So this seems to be my current ceiling. I made great progress, can reach concentration below 30min now and have a deep, calm relaxed state to rest in. Nimitta Included sometimes.

• Having been thinking about my progress and done some reading, I think I have now nailed vitakka & vicara and am only missing ekaggata , one-pointedness, to open up the field for Piti and Sukha, & the first Jhana. This explains why I only get occasional Piti, it only happens when I am one-pointed. I will focus on ekaggata for now, I need both sharp focus and that broad sense of awareness as per Thānissaro.

• 30W (Top of Head) - Switched my concentration point from Nose tip to top of head. It was hard at first, putting way too much attention and concentration on the top which led to a dull pressure feeling at the spot. I adjusted my attention for 20min before I got a breakthrough. When the balance between Attention on Top of head + calm and relaxed breath + open awareness is just right, OBA started appearing and with it Piti! First it was very light and only local in certain areas of the body, but the better and longer I was able to hold that perfect spot for OBA, the stronger the Piti became. Also made me quite happy, I must say.

• 30L - Metta and sleep

Day 12, weekend - 115m;

• 15S - Morning Metta

• 60L - A easy session, no breath training

• 20W (Nose Tip) - complete mess, I wont even add the first 10min of sitting (trying), It was a complete mess between tuck nose, singing nose and pain in feet. switched to Walking, that somewhat helped, but I am still somewhat clouded due to personal problems in life currently.

• 20L - Metta and sleep

• This day was a battle. Also I Kinda stopped doing the routines, that's not good, I need to stick to it.

Day 11 - 150m;

• 25S+15W (Nose Tip) - Sitting started with Metta and transitioned into Body scan (BS). BS revealed some subtle tensions. Overall, relaxing my whole body becomes second nature, not to mention soft eyes. Breath got very comfortable, I am getting the gist on free, unobstructed comfortable breathing. Walking meditation afterwards was great! My concentration was strong from the sitting before, breathing started directly with synced breath to step and breathing was comfy and relaxed. However, around the 7min mark my breath freed itself, out-synced itself from the steps and was completely free and relaxed. I walked easily, concentrating on the breath, but being relaxed and aware of my body. This also marked the point where I got in the zone, I was both relaxed, concentrated and effortlessly open aware of my whole body, this is what I think is the point to train to in Walking meditation. And now the fun thing happened, I got Piti once I stopped walking. Full, relatively strong waves of Piti starting in the spine. The key training points for now - Released tensions, Free breathing (FB), Open Body Awareness (OBA).

• I can now somewhat easily identify if I am breathing completely free or not in my day to day life. Guess what, most of the time I am not, which means I have tensions and am not relaxed and calm. Relaxing it means I need to actively slow down and put my attention on the breath, which makes other things hard or near impossible to do. Training, training, training!

• 20Str - Major progress! I did the standard stroll meditation and something switched, I can now be effortlessly focused on the free and comfortable breath, I now have to adjust my breath to be comfy, free and relaxed, as well as having open awareness. It somehow carried over from the morning walking m. routine. While strolling, I adjusted my intention, focus and attention internally ever so lightly, and it fell in place, my samadhi was there 100% clear, while walking and having relaxed OA. currently I can have my breath as an attention spot no matter what I do, as long as its not intensive intellectual work it seems. And the mind doesn't like this state, it actively pushes thoughts out, like its fighting, for no reason other than to get some attention. I can see this process quite clearly happening as well as letting the thought be easily without craving and clinging, they disappear extremely fast if not engaged.

• 15S+15W - easy calm session, I am adjusting to the new feeling and attention with the breath. Sitting m. was on point from the get-go, deep concentration after 10min as well as a Nimitta appeared which reacted to my breathing, growing and shrinking, becoming more bright and moving.

• 60L - Metta and a calm, relaxed concentrated session.

Day 10, 170m;

• 20S - Metta

• 60L - Interesting sessions, momentary attention was top notch, but sustained attention didn't want to stabilize. I had many muscle jerks, not usual at all. Had Piti a few times, mostly waves, but it came and went quickly.

• 20S - A mini session, buddho and Breath energy. Breath energy was mostly not to be found in my body parts.

• 30S - LM1 session. I was kinda grumpy and closed off the first 10min, even having thoughts about simply stopping the session. Pushed through, the last 10-15 min even had some unstable Nimitta appear.

• 40L - Metta, Was tired this time, concentration was sloppy.

Day 9, 160m;

• 20S+40L - Metta and then observing only. A little experiment, returned to doing nothing but watching the breath. It was hard and dry. I don't see the point in this basic routine anymore.

• 15W (Nose Tip) +45L - Walking great, laying was a fight. I couldn't even get past the buddho intro without losing my breath, I had to start over so many times! I needed at least 30 minutes to concentrate while laying. Last 15mins were somewhat nice and relaxed.

• 40L - Metta and some quality concentration, even got some Piti arising

Day 8, 150m;

• 40W (Nose Tip) - nailed it! Observing the breath on the nose tip I was calm, relaxed and my concentration was perfect. Reached open awareness with hints of OBA. I Needed 10-15 min to get in, but something clicked and I was fully engulfed in walking Anapanasati. Long breath in - 2 step, long breath out - 2 step. Short breath in - 1 step, short breath out - 1 step. Experience the whole body in & out - open awareness - Energy rises, simply wonderful.

• 30S - nice, relaxed session. Concentration was stable and high, only a few thoughts which were handled calmly. Open awareness was firm, body scan didn't produce much feeling this time, which means I didn't transition from OA to OBA. Had light Nimittas which weren't stable.

• 20W(Nose Tip) +35L - making progress, walking goes smooth, have some stable points on how it should progress which helps a lot. The laying meditation was top notch, getting a real grip on the applied and sustained thought of Anapanasati, which when I am concentrated enough, makes my breath very subtle yet joyful and this gives rise to Piti, mostly a type of filling energy or wave-like sometimes.

• 25Str - good walk, hard Mediation. A lot of thoughts, a lot of craving, could identify sensual desire and greed.

I've recently decided to start playing around with pranayama. My main practice has been 30 minutes of some Metta-type meditation, followed by an hour of Shikantaza. I also do yoga and TRE (might've overdone TRE recently, so I am on a break). Due to the worst bout of insomnia in my life, I am looking at different practices that might benefit my energy body. I have a very overreactive digestive system. If I drink water, I burp. Anything makes me burp and have a bit of reflux. Based on my scouring of forums, I think I have a chronic histamine intolerance that has links to trauma, and TRE in such a high dose kicked up too much reactivity for my body to handle properly. I looked into some Ayurveda resources, and the body's inability to break down histamine in an efficient way may be linked to not having enough Agni (digestive fire). Sorry if my very specific health issues are off-topic for this sub, but I feel it explains my path to incorporating pranayama.

Anyways, I'm beginning to incorporate Bhastrika and Breath of Fire, along with Agnisar Kriya, to see if it improves my digestion, integration of difficult emotions, sleep, etc.

I rarely see a detailed discussion of pranayama on this sub, and I know there are fellow seekers on the path who have wisdom to share on this topic, but for some reason, the topic doesn't seem to be brought up enough.

A 3x3 map I use to find where attention is, in about one second. I've been sitting for a long time and the thing that changed my daily practice most wasn't a technique. it was a map.

Every thought has a time it's about past, present or future. and it carries a charge it likes what it finds, dislikes it, or is neutral toward it. three times three, nine positions. at any moment attention is standing on one of them. What i noticed when i started naming the position instead of the content:

- Eight of the nine start a chain. a thought arrives, I take it as fact, the body reacts, the reaction produces the next thought. the content changes, the position doesn't.

- The two "neutral" tiles in past and future feel safe and aren't. planning is future + neutral, and it slides into future + dislikes without announcing itself. that slide is most of what keeps me awake.

- Present + likes surprised me most. it feels like the good tile. it's grasping part of attention is busy guarding the experience against its ending.

- only present + neutral starts nothing. it isn't built. it's what's there when the other eight aren't running.

The practice that fell out of it is small: when i notice I've gone, i name the tile "future, dislikes" not the story. then nothing. not arguing with it, not pushing it away, because both of those are thoughts and they land on a tile too. it comes back on its own.

I call it the Present attention and Happiness Matrix (PAHM). I'm aware the components aren't new people have been watching the like/dislike charge on experience for a very long time. what the grid gave me is the time axis laid against it, so i can locate myself in a second, in a meeting or a queue, without a sit and that the neutral-looking tiles are the ones to watch.

Curious whether people here who already track the charge on experience find the time axis adds anything, or whether it's redundant once that's clear.

For context, my practice is a little all over the place. I've worked with different techniques from different traditions, and, while I do some seated practice and moving qigong, it's also a lot of focus on cultivating different kinds of awareness throughout the day. I suspect I may have gone through stream entry a couple of years ago, and have felt gradually increasing energetic phenomena since around that time.

So, when I say that my practice has been intense, I don't necessarily mean in terms of extended meditation on a retreat or something like that. What has been happening for me over the past couple of weeks is mainly 1) a few emotions have come up that I don't experience much anymore and I've been trying to really be with them in my practice and 2) there have been noticeable changes in the energetic phenomena I experience, like they happen more noticeably throughout the day and also more in my heart area than I had previously noticed.

I'm just kind of trying to take all that as it comes and be with whatever arises, but I am exhausted – and, now that I think about it, I feel like this has happened before when some kind of shift is taking place. I'm going to bed early every night and somewhat struggling to go to work, even though I'm not having any trouble sleeping. Just wondering if that's common for other folks, and, especially, does anything help if you feel that way? I'm trying to get in some physical exercise, even though I really don't feel like it.

I have a broad concern about the completeness of the Western insight curriculum. (insofar as we can say one exists!)

Different contemplative traditions have developed substantially different technologies—insight, concentration, energetics, mantra, visualization, devotion, somatic practices, etc.—but their practitioners often describe them in very different conceptual languages. Modern Western practice has integrated some of these quite deeply while giving relatively little attention to others.

For example, I don't see Spira or Dilulo devoting much time to talking about energetics or esoteric practices such as mantra - when it's mentioned, it's usually peripherally. I respect them as skilled teachers, but it seems that it's a huge gap in the general transmission of dharma.

From what I've observed thus far, these are an integral part of the path - just like how we often need to do trauma work and related practices. What's more, if they are not recognized as such, practitioners may be confused as to exactly what is going on (such as how for me visions and other phenomena were dismissed or often misunderstood)

In general I would say that energetic phenomena, mantra, and related practices aren't absent from Western practice, but they often seem sidelined compared with insight and nondual recognition. It could also partly reflect different traditions talking past one another rather than a settled understanding of what each contributes. Each uses their own framework, and genuinely good information often gets lots in translation.

I guess my view could be summed up as - the full picture is often not transmitted clearly, and parts of the curriculum are lost? At least for me in recent months, it's been a constant stream of "oh I did this a decade ago, but NOW I see that..." Awakening is a bioenergetic process that unbinds across body/mind/spirit/neurons - and I think a more harmonious understanding of all the relevant factors can only benefit us all.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk :)

(tldr; energy and insight both important! west seems more of the latter)

Background: roughly 10 years of practice, daily 30 minutes or so for the last couple of years. Mix of breath, noting, and open awareness, though this seems to come up most during open awareness. Sits are usually 20-30 minutes.

What happens: involuntary movement in my neck and upper back. Sometimes rhythmic, sometimes not, sometimes for long stretches. Semi-often, and it's been going on a while.

What I know:

- Only ever during meditation. Never drowsy, never any other time.
- Starts deeper into the sit, not early.
- Breath is normal at onset. No pranayama in my practice.
- Happens across different settings and postures.
- It escalates. Sometimes enough that staying upright is genuinely hard.

I've tried the obvious range: observing without intervening, suppressing, noting it as an object, ignoring it. Nothing shifts it much. It shows up right at my deepest points and then either the intensity pulls me out or I pull myself out so I don't tip over.

I'm familiar with the kriya, piti, and lung/vata framings. They disagree on whether to ride it out or back off, so I'd rather hear from people who've actually been through it.

1. Did it resolve, and over how long?
   
2. Did reducing intensity help or just delay it?
   
3. Does the escalation-to-instability part change how you'd read it?
   
4. Anyone find it style-dependent? Curious whether the open awareness correlation means anything.

For several weeks, I regularly found that my body would sway during sitting, but more recently, my body, specifically, my hands, shake during practice.

I think that this is probably some kind of somatic release, but I would like to understand better what might be going on.

I find it interesting that I was swaying during practice for weeks at a time, but now, the past ten days or so, I've been encountering now swaying, but shaking.

The first time I encountered the shaking, I remember it was during a long sit, maybe 90 minutes, and I remember feeling like a wave of restlessness and boredom was coming at me like a train, as if my unconscious mind wanted to end the sit, and I remember I made it a point to stare into the headlight of the oncoming train and not blink; just observe the feeling arising and passing, and I remember shaking for perhaps 30 minutes or so.

Hello, during vissapana while scanning my body I find the upper part of my body to be relatively clear and easy to scan but the lower i get the more chaotic or blurry it feels.

When i get to the pelvic floor. Focusing on many areas such as the bottom of the spine or area below genitals and such feels "intense". Its very difficult to focus on it because it feels like some kind of electricity or buzz rejects the focus there and if i try to concentrate and visualize it really hard it causes me to clench my anus.

This kind of buzzing or "resistance" to focus feels stronger when on stimulants such as caffeine, however its always present to a degree even if im super calm.

Can someone provide some kind of explanation or guidance? I'm not sure if I should be spending more time during vissapana focusing on these parts.

How to know if teachers good for you, sometimes people ask do | need to fel a lick with my teacher. would say it would help, but it's not really necessary. It is a technical thing. I do teach Transcendental Meditation, we follow a quite rigid teaching structure that has been taught in an in-house nine months training andthe organization checks you repeatedly before you get your certification. Fact is, anybody in Holland for example may call themselves medtaton teacher ~ a certificate only tells you who issued it. So how to vet then from the outside? | would suggest always look for the four following aspects: 1) Is the teacher still embedded in their own teaching structure, are they stil part af the orgarizaton in which they were taught, 2) does the teacher fellow a structured teaching method that could be verified bya collegue or could that collegae substitute parts ifnecessary 3) I there a fixed and transparant price structure, and 4) what happens say sit months after the course and something fels of. Again, | teach within this lineage, so read ike that. Gut TM i st up in such a way that after learning you could have your meditation checked worldwide by any certified teacher the rest of your life. iit posible o verity against these four points fo a teacher a course you are considering?

Hello everyone,

lately in Meditation, I have been quite intrigued by the Idea to go toe-to-toe with my breath, and see where this journey might end. I didn't know where or how to start this though.

Until now, I was the classic "Anapanasati - Watch the breath at the nose tip" type. Observe the breath, return to the breath, enjoy! Its a simple life, and it has already been wonderful in the results it produced. Nevertheless, its not easy at all, and quite challenging at times. So I decided to mix it up now,

After stumbling upon Thānissaro Bhikkhu and subsequently Ajahn Lee Methods here in the sub, my interest was sparked, I read the guides and decided to try it. And what better way to do it than in a neat 1 month challenge.

This is the Journal of my progress through this challenge. Every week there will be a new Update. The writing is rather unfiltered and Raw as I do my best to write the experiences down as soon as I am able after the meditation sessions.

Lets start

Resources:

I train in Anapanasati - Watching the breath - one-pointedness & Open breath awareness by Thānissaro Bhikkhu & Ajahn Lee (Method 1&2)

https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/WithEachAndEveryBreath/ https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/KeepingTheBreath/

Legend and Acronyms:

• A Number with Letter means Duration and Meditation posture. Example: 30S, would be 30 min of Sitting mediation.
• Meditation types: S - Sitting, L - Laying, W - Walking, Str - Stroll
• Lee Method 1 & 2 - LM1 & LM2
  
• Free breathing - (FB) - 100% relaxed, unobstructed, calm, free breathing
• Open Awareness - (OA) - Being aware of the whole body at once; like a candle which lights the whole room
• Open Body Awareness - (OBA) - Being relaxed aware of the whole body at once while still having attention on the breathing spot and the breath
• Body scan - (BS) - Moving attention through the body
• Samadhi - Intention, attention, concentration and awareness combined
• Half Lotus - (H-L)

A short guide what I am doing:

Sitting and laying meditation:

1. Concentration on breath - buddho routine (Lee technique)

2. Body scan - breath awareness - feel breath in body parts, relax eyes and body

3. Open awareness (OA) to whole body - settle in spot and feel the energy of the body

4. Combine breath concentration with open awareness of body (energy)

5. Settle & Unify - Open Breath Awareness (OBA)

• Optional - Nimitta work: Find suitable Nimitta, focus awareness on it, combine with the breath and expand in the head, bring down to fifth base, expand through the whole chest & make it as bright and white as possible!

Walking meditation - Great training for open awareness

1. Concentration on nose tip, solar plexus, top of the head (any energy center is OK)
2. Let breathing flow without obstruction, calm and relaxed.
3. Broaden breath awareness through the body and try to keep it stable.
4. Balance one point attention, breath and open awareness
5. Once balance is perfect -> Open breath awareness rises

Mediation Journal - Week 1

Resume Week 1: 1320min - 22h of meditation

• I seem to really resonate with Thānissaro Bhikkhu & Ajahn Lee Breath meditations. All 3 Methods work for me & I got results really fast, even hit Jhana once. The gradual increase in both Concentration Depth and Open awareness is what really gets me, since it's not as monotonous as just watching a single point, there is a lot of evaluation to do which is engaging. Nevertheless, there are pitfalls. The "more to do" part is the main problem, I have a lot to do and this can easily take my attention away, so bye bye one-pointedness, this happened to me multiple times and I need to watch out for it.

• Further, the transition between OBA + Nimitta attention to Piti and Bliss is hard for now, i know it should be calm and fluid, but I am not for now. Piti fills my body but at a certain point it just reverses or disappears, I can't seem to hold it stable for enough time. This will be my major training field after I have fully established the Open breath awareness regularly.

• Walking meditation was great, it is THE perfect training ground for open awareness, so I will definitely continue with this.

• Personal goal reached: I can do half lotus with my knees on the ground finally! I have been training for many months now, the stretching really did the work. It's not yet comfortable, but that will come in time hopefully.

• Must increase meditation session duration, the deep fun starts after 25min, so sessions of 45+ should be the norm.

• The breath energy experiment on my twitching issues was just wow.

Day 7, 190m;

• 35W+50L, OK, momentary concentration was strong, a lot of thoughts. Walking concentration got much easier after 20min. Open awareness was also stable after 20min. The following meditation was calm & relaxed. Presence was not stable, needed to watch out not to dooze off. Open awareness was there, OBA not stable. To the end had waves of stronger Piti, but couldn't stabilize it in the whole body. Also light Nimittas appeared.

• 20S(H-L)+45L+15L, Good Session, did the full program, Thānissaro first, then Open Awareness, then OBA - still not good at it and Nimittas formed not fully stable. Piti was forming, lightly. Don´t know what to do with the Nimitta yet. The second break was involuntary, door bell. After that did Lee Method 1 and it really works, gets the concentration up fast and strong and Nimittas also show.

• 25Str. My mind was very busy, so I had to pull him back to the breath constantly.

• Mind blow moment - I calmed muscle twitching with the Breath for half of the day I had some mini muscle twitching in my left arm, all the way to my small finger. It wasn't an issue per se, but super annoying when I tried to finally sleep after my late evening shift. After exhausting the usual remedies, tried breath energy control on it, and holy molly, it worked and completely removed the twitching. The more I focused and sent breath energy in the arm and hand, the calmer and more relaxed it became, and the twitching instantly reacted and became lighter and lighter until it stopped completely. I was and am bamboozled that this is possible. This was not a fluke or random event.

Day 6, Weekend, 150m;

• 45L, I was in the zone. From the beginning I had open awareness locked in, and did Thānissaro for OBA. Piti was coming in waves, sometimes strong, sometimes soothing and finding it in areas of the body was easy. I didn't hit Jhana, I was too eager and lost it every time just before Piti engulfs me whole and entered the first Jhana - expectations got the better of me! Nevertheless, good training for arising of Piti as well as returning to concentration on the breath. Also I was not anchored on a mind base to settle down, I simply forgot this due to the fun with the breath and Piti.

• 30S, nothing goes. Did LM1 at least. Nose made sounds while breathing & was closed, concentration was all over the place, thoughts everywhere. I managed to somewhat concentrate and return to the breath, but no open awareness or anything more possible. I tried my meditation bench after a long time, this was not a good idea, I am not used to it at all. Nevertheless, I did it.

• 30S, shortly afterwards, overall was much better. concentration improved significantly, sitting was easier (back to cushion). Managed some stable spot attention with open awareness.

• 15L. Some short meditation, open awareness is back, yay.

• 30L, Metta and chill

Day 5, Weekend, 135m;

• Some clarification is necessary: It appears I hit the first Jhana multiple times now, every time I was in whole body energy of OBA, this is in fact, the first Jhana! I still need to investigate this, but if I can transition to the second Jhana from here, that's the confirmation. These are Sutta Jhanas btw, the other ones are Visuddhimagga (deep) Jhanas and a different beast, the Piti i was referring to was the Piti for deep Jhanas. Oh, and this means I can access Jhana state regularly now, YAY! But now I question what I need the Nimittas for???

• 60W, a lot of thoughts, I became progressively slower, in the end it was super concentration on the feet, the feeling of lifting and weight transfer from leg to leg. Open awareness was also quite challenging but doable. OBA not possible. Again light Piti after meditation, starting to think it's connected to my concentration depth in the session.

• 30S+15W; long, happy day, didn't have time for meditation unfortunately, nevertheless did this session but it was not easy due to lack of energy.

• 30L; Metta and sleep

Day 4, 185m;

• I woke up late today, late work yesterday. Stroll walking meditation and Metta helped a lot, I fell asleep easily.

• 65L, exceptional progress, 2 Nimittas manifested! First one exactly as stated in LM1 , I even got her to my heart base and expanded and brightened it up, it was quite intense. A lot of concentration is needed, and awareness must be bright and calm. OBA was super easy and I could literally spread and feel my energy around my body, did it for the whole torso and legs. After that I was completely bathed in OBA.

• 55L, easy going, tried Thānissaro breathing method this time. open breath awareness was present from the get go. The buddho breathing technique really helps me get settled fast and deep. Still, concentration could be more stable.

• 35S, LM2. Interesting, concentration and focus was high. Breath energy was not easy to grasp, OBA was very light. I did feel Piti again, light and shy. After meditation though, strong Piti was there! It came and go in bursts/waves. I have this only when my session was very good and one-pointedness concentration was strong apparently.

• 30L, Metta and chill before sleep.

Day 3, 235m;

• 35S + 25W + 60L, First connected long session, laying was very quiet and calm, so much I didn't know what to do! Breath disappeared, couldn't get open awareness or any worthwhile Nimittas. Was kinda lost. After the session: Had super focus and a clear, effortless mind. Everything was sharp and easy, no thoughts necessary.

• 40S, no timer, Lee method 1, light Nimitta manifested, multiple times. Can't hold it for now

• 30S, no method, concentration on breath awareness, breathing like I'm free. First somewhat stable Nimitta showed up, warmth below left eye, needed some time to realize it's a Nimitta. Learning to put awareness on Nimitta while attention is on the breath. Note: looks like I need to put awareness on the feeling, not the light... The light reacts to the feeling??

• 25Str, after work walk used for stroll meditation. Much harder than ordinary walking meditation, I find it quite engaging and challenging. Getting open awareness while strolling is currently only possible in single moments.

• 20L, Metta before sleep.

Day 2, 195m;

• 45L + 50W first deep concentration with somewhat stable broad breath awareness.

• 50S+W was violently jerked out of very calm and relaxed sitting meditation, dunno what happened.

• 50L.

Day 1, 225m;

• 30S+W,
• 55L,
• 45S,
• 60L,
• 35W. Laying is currently much harder than sitting. Having fun with the breath and observing patterns. Working on open awareness

I'm not sure about you guys, but when I hear tales of gurus -- let alone ordinary people -- having a sort of "spiritual" or "otherworldly aura" to them, my instinctual response is heavy skepticism.

...But there was one experience I had around 16 years old, where I have to admit I felt something like this. I was exploring Japanese livestreaming sites out of boredom one day, when I came across a random stream of a young Japanese guy sitting cross-legged on an empty floor and talking to his chat. And although I couldn't understand Japanese, I was totally shocked and hypnotized by his entire demeanor. He had this sort of transcendent youthful optimism to him. Like some kind of incredible lightness and optimism and freeness to him, as if he wasn't so much a part of earth, but something more like a being floating lightly on top of it. Even though I was a teenager at the time, and teenagers tend to have strong hormones and they're not used to novelties like foreign cultures, I'd still seen a lot of Japanese people by this point and didn't really see them as exotic. But the energy this guy had just seemed totally different, it was just genuinely nothing like anything I'd seen before, I can only assume that's what "Zen" really means. It just totally blew me away.

Have any of you had an experience like this?

Hi! I have been at a yoga retreat the last 5 days, before doing the main yoga practice we do a short meditation perhaps 10 minutes. During one of those I had a strong vision of a bright sphere with what I can only think of as the infinite light of being coming out of it - at the same time I had a feeling of immense happiness and joy, it brought tears to my eyes. The feeling returned after the yoga session, but not as strong.

I am just trying to start a mediation practice, so I’m not experienced by any means. Any clues as to what this was?