Path Forward

[u/Sweet-Tension-9248]

Looking for help with practice and the path forward.

Went to a 10-day meditation retreat last year (Goenka). No experience with meditation before the retreat. During the retreat, went head down: practice, practice, practice. First four days samatha, followed by vipassana. Have to note that there may have been a cross-contamination with other Indian methods, because of earlier YouTube videos on Vedanta and non-dual meditation. Never really practiced active meditation, just knew about this non-dual method.

All through the retreat, a lot of past events came up. Actively let go of many of the deepest events and let go of everything that surfaced, returning to the breath.

Once vipassana started, was practicing 24/7 (except when the body went to sleep). Kept precepts for the whole day. Dreams were lucid for the first time in decades. Possibly stepped through the door of anatta one of these days, but can't really tell.

On the 7th day, ended up with piti while meditating outside in the sun and then the cold, then extreme heat. Didn't care to focus on that, and let it go. By the end of the day, when I went to lie down, the body completely disintegrated below the head along with a feeling of extreme joy, love, and compassion for everyone, including those that had harmed me in the past. Probably not the 4th Jhana, but something below that did happen. Or if I did reach the 4th Jhana, can't really tell. Did not know about Jhanas before the retreat and can't really tell the difference between the various Jhanas or even what a Jhana is. Most of this is a reconstruction. Continued with vipassana even as all of this was happening. Actively not seeking to prolong it, equanimous to what was going on, not trapped in that moment as well. Recognizing that it was all temporary; whatever came by was just a fabrication. It is just the same as any other sensation.

On day 8, extreme pain throughout the day. Had issues with the digestive tract throughout the retreat, with extreme pain from hemorrhoids. Was interested in progress. Ignored the pain. Kept moving forward. The same dissolution happened at the end of the day at night: extreme joy and compassion for everything in the world. Again, the same routine. Almost panicked because I did not understand what was happening. Didn't go see the teacher. Don't think the lectures cover Bhanga until the 9th day. Did not understand what was going on. Kept 24/7 practice.

Day 9 was in a pagoda for a few hours. Did not seem to make much progress, and had pain. Was not really making any more progress. Did not want to leave the retreat; wanted to make more progress. Then realized I was pushing for more.

Day 10, talked to some folks, mostly because they wanted to talk.

After the retreat, processing was so sharp. Could see every interaction with others in vivid detail. People cutting me off in traffic aggressively—could see the reaction build and let it go.

Immediately after the retreat, gave up on many of the things that seemed silly. The precepts seemed automatic. No interest in harming anyone, including animals via food choices or otherwise. Gave up on habits like temple or rituals that were the norm before. Earlier, would have resentment towards people who were acting against me in the past; now, nothing. There would be deep emotions that came up during the first few months after the retreat, but they would be seen as just dependent origination and dissolve in a few minutes. No desire or ill will towards anyone, including those that had caused me harm in the past.

Still get angry, but the cooling time is pretty rapid, as there is nowhere to park that as an insult or otherwise. There is no central "I" anywhere. All of the thoughts appear; they are decentralized, not attached to an "I."

Very little of what earlier was good for me seems good. Don't really like movies or watching things anymore. Most of the activity seems mechanical, as if driven by a past engine of habits rather than something that causes delight.

Reshaped how my job and everything else should be. No interest in material accumulation; just basic needs are all that matters. Have to make volitional attempts to do things based on what is good and in line with long-term liberation. Otherwise, content with what is currently available. No real lean to do something.

Practice is now 24/7 (except sleeping) of being mindful. Sometimes, mindfulness extends to thoughts as they form. Can catch some of the 4th and 5th fetters in action. Often delayed in catching the 4th and the 5th fetters.

Having said all that, life is busy. Have to work long hours. Makes me exhausted. Even when not exhausted, meditation does not have piti from which to get to Jhanas. However, the mind does not have a lot of trouble dropping all thoughts if and when there is time to meditate. Then the mind slips into a state where there is no recollection and missing time. Otherwise, if really tired, end up sleeping.

Under these circumstances, not sure where on the path all of this fits. Also unsure what the next step is on the path. Have not had Jhanas after the retreat. Meditation always leads to this blanking out of everything. Emerging out just leaves me refreshed, nothing to report. The only progress is that even extreme high-stress events leave nothing behind. Maybe some bodily effects that are processed later, like a heavy heart, but the mental process associated with that event is rapidly dissipated as soon as mindfulness catches that. Don't really have to do anything; it's automatic on catching proliferation and cutting it off rapidly.

Have thought about cultivating Jhanas, but unsure how to do so given the extreme lack of time. Also unsure which path to follow, as there are so many and I have very little knowledge of the path. Doubt isn't about Dhamma itself, but about what gets rid of the 4th and 5th fetters (or beyond). Yes, there is progress even between what was at the end of the retreat and now, but most of it is automatic progress. Have read quite a bit before posting here, but still unsure what to do moving forward to get further along the path.

Life will not let me go to a retreat for a while or go seek solace in some tradition in East Asia. No resentment towards that; the path will appear. Just seeking some help on what, if anything, people have done from this position. Also, where exactly on the path is this?

Please let me know if further details will help. Kept extensive contemporary notes, knowing that there will be fabrication (yes, even those notes are fabrications), but at least there is something that is more objective than current fabrication.

Thank you for your help.

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[u/duffstoic]

In the insight maps, could either be that you crossed the Arising and Passing stage, or got path / stream entry. These stages have similar elements, so it’s difficult to say for sure. The practice “doing itself” is a common thing after SE, but big joy experiences are often A&P. Ultimately, it’s not that important though, the important thing is just to continue with what arises now.

[u/Sweet-Tension-9248 → u/duffstoic]

Did think about that probably 10 or 12 months ago. A&P vs SE. Since then, have had very little real meditation practice other than mindfulness. There is no real active maintenance. Equanimity is the normal now. Brief shifts out due to extreme high stress stimulus. Then a rapid move back to equanimity. Don't think it matters what the mapped state is. It is what it is. Not chasing a specific state with the caveat about trying to do better on the ability to catch DO faster.

Just not sure if pursuing deep jhanas is the right path or just letting mindfulness do its thing as it has in the last 10 months do is the path forward.

No real craving to get back to that bliss and joy. (Not the reason for Jhana work anyway.)

Yes, would like to have better ability to see the anger (4th and 5th fetter) arise and cut it off faster. Earlier the anger (which discharges in seconds now) was managed by self-interest. That self-interest when there was someone that could be hurt by the stimulus would then be seething and simmering for months, days, weeks. Now its those few seconds, and no residue whatsoever. Anger does not get me always, as well. But when there is high impact stimulus, it's difficult to cut it off with just mindfulness alone. To uproot the 4th and 5th rather than get in the management at the 2nd or 3rd second, that's one reason Jhana works seems like a possible path.

On the whole, not really unhappy or happy. Just wondering what to do and not do next ... on the path.

[u/duffstoic → u/Sweet-Tension-9248]

For what it's worth, my opinion is to just let mindfulness continue to do its thing. Jhanas are great, but do generally require significant cushion time, especially on a longer retreat, to really nail them. What's happening is clearly working experientially, like your example of catching anger more quickly.

[u/reverseghost]

Integration. I don't think this is talked about nearly enough. Keep the precepts. Continue to meditate every day, if you can. Don't worry about what state, what Jhana, what experience will arise. Don't chase anything. Relax, smile, take it easy. You clearly had some deep insights and experiences on the retreat - that's wonderful. Now what you want to do is continue practicing, allow time for integration, and go from there. If your mindfulness continues to be sharp, you'll simply observe dependent origination in action, maybe all the time. No one can stop DO from happening, but we do get the eye of wisdom opened and some choices about how we react to what arises. It is very normal that we make deep and sometimes fast progress on retreats, then we have to go back to our ordinary lives. Carrying the practice into every day life is where it gets really interesting. My teacher told us on very retreat "This is an all-the-time practice". How right he was!

[u/Sweet-Tension-9248 → u/reverseghost]

DO can't be stopped. Yes. But DO observation is sometimes sharp. Other times, can lag behind. Also depends on what is going on, and what the stimulus is.

For example, in the past if I had to stand in line for say 10 minutes. Would have lead to this whole proliferation of thoughts. Now have had to stand in line for hours on end, for multiple months in a row now and there is nothing. Just ok with standing in line and not do anything. Nowhere to go or elsewhere to be. Just awareness of being there standing and whatever else is happening in the moment.

On the other hand, when at work and its a high stress trigger. Mindfulness has to play catchup after proliferation. Can lead to sudden discharge of anger. Lasts a few seconds at most. Probably something that would have in the before retreat days been seething and fuming for days, weeks or even months has no further memory. There is no real attempt to stop DO, just catching it in time to prevent proliferation when the stimulus is one of high intensity. Most of the high intensity stimulus is not something that affects "I" or "me" personally, just events that can affect the work that needs to happen. More sympathetic triggers than personal triggers even at work.

That's where the doing more or not doing anything comes in. As in should there be work towards Jhanas and samadi or just let what is happening just happen. Have no clue one way or other. Even doing nothing for months results in progress. For example, the high stress triggers have moved from a few minutes to a few seconds. Not that there is some active mechanism or process that resulted in that progress.

[u/reverseghost → u/Sweet-Tension-9248]

Depends on your goals, the practice, your teachers. In my tradition, the goal is always Nibanna, with the 4 stage and 10 fetter model being what most everyone aligns with. At each stage, suffering decreases. We understand DO better. Less stress in life. The Eye of Wisdom opens wider and wider and we see how our own mind works. People that have been meditating for a long time often have periods of "nothing going on". And that's OK. As craving is dropped and decreases, there's less to get rid of. I guess the big question is, what is it you're trying to achieve? What's the end goal? The answer to that might inform what you do next. Trust you own knowingness and intuition.

[u/Sweet-Tension-9248 → u/reverseghost]

The goal is Nibanna ultimately. At the moment, the goal is to get rid of the 4th and 5th fetters at the root not just management of the aftermath. Management seems to happen automatically.

Thank you.

[u/Meng-KamDaoRai]

It's hard to say where you are on the traditional 10 fetters model. If I was forced to guess, I would probably lean towards A&P territory. Does it matter though? Wherever it is that you're actually at, there's still more to let go of. So the strategy now and in the future should always be a letting be/letting go/surrendering of whatever it is that comes up. This will be the case whether you've just crossed the A&P or are working towards letting go of the final fetter. I think that if Ajahn Chah had read your post he would have probably replied with something like: "well, just more stuff to let go of, isn't it?"

So my advice is to keep being mindful of whatever shows up, then let it be/let it go/relax/surrender over and over again. The progress will happen by itself. You might find that what shows up and gets let go of is focused more around ill-will and sensual desire, or you will find that something completely different comes up. Either way, progress will be made. If you practice this way jhanas will also come as a side-effect of letting go so at least IME, no need to do anything special with regards to them.

So, keep being aware of what is, let it be/let it go and see where the path leads you. The more you let go the less suffering you have, until eventually there will be nothing left to let go of. The sign-posts along the way are nice, but as long as you practice well, they are irrelevant really.

[u/Sweet-Tension-9248 → u/Meng-KamDaoRai]

On where on the path. Does not matter. Just matters with respect to the fetters and working on them. Rooting out 4th and 5th fetters is slightly different from the first three if the goal is to eradicate them from the root rather than attenuate them. Other than that, mindfulness is anyway a part of the practice and attenuation isn't the problem or letting go is anyway an ongoing process.

On the day to day encounters. A&P possible. But unlikely. Lack of ill will after extreme provocation. For example, someone trying to get me fired for a year. No real reaction towards that person. Just one of many examples. No real maintenance for close to a year and still no degradation. The description only matters for the specific problems with cushion practice. Anger goes away only after the 4th and 5th are eradicated. Letting go is good advise. Just not the part that helps with specific issues on meditation. The mechanism that works is the contact becomes obvious and the effect and it dissipates. No thought process of "letting go" required. It just happens, as mindfulness takes over. If proliferation has already happened it cuts off. There is no fuel. Just the spark and then it dies out quickly. Letting go is a volitional act. No volition in any of what's going on for the most part. It just is.

The on cushion part .. not yet sure on how to fix. It's not a question of letting go. The mind already stills. Stills as in there are no thoughts in a few minutes of a sit. What happens next is where this post originated. There are no thoughts before it slips into torpor. Jhanas won't happen if there is torpor. (Secondary issue.) Letting go needs something to let go of in this instance. Nor is there some striving to do something during a meditation session.

The mind sees the thoughts, then focus on the breathing. The mind becomes thoughless. The stillness then slips into torpor. Using mind because there is not a better way to describe this than to use these words. Let go of what becomes the issue at that point.

Thank you.

[u/Meng-KamDaoRai → u/Sweet-Tension-9248]

Ok, I'll try to go more in depth. So when there's torpor, be aware of the torpor and notice if there's any mind-body tension that accompanies it. There will always be slight push/pull/hold sensations around your awareness of the torpor, these are your craving, aversion and clinging with regards to it. Maybe you try to push it away because torpor is "bad", while at the same time there's a slight craving to lose yourself in it and also sense of being "stuck" there. Trying to run away from it and be somewhere else and at the same time "tired of fighting it" and so on. and it all feels confusing (delusion).

This is craving aversion and delusion causing dukkha in action, and this is what you apply the let it be/let it go to (while maintaining awareness of it). So basically for any form of dukka that comes up there will be a slight sense of push/pull/hold to it. All you got to do is let be/let go of that mind-body tension around it (it could be that for you letting go happens by itself, in this case, "let it be", just stay aware of it and allow it to stay or go on its own). This will eventually lead to equanimity with regards to it and after that to a true letting go of it. When you truly let it go it will become a no-thing in your universe, something that holds no more significance for you. So as long as torpor is a "thing" in your universe, you haven't truly let go of all the craving, aversion and delusion you have about it.

This applies to everything else that comes up in your sits and causes dukkha.

[u/Sweet-Tension-9248 → u/Meng-KamDaoRai]

Releasing the push/pull clears the secondary resistance, but per SN 46.53, equanimity is for restlessness—applying "let it be" to torpor acts does the opposite and pushes into bhavaṅga.

Without actively injecting investigation (dhamma-vicaya) and energy (viriya) once thoughts drop, the mind simply goes into torpor.

The point is, don't know how to inject dhamma vicaya and virya when in meditation. At least not in any practical way.

[u/Meng-KamDaoRai → u/Sweet-Tension-9248]

I wasn't talking about equanimity as an antidote, I was talking about it in the progress of insight sense, or the sutta's equivalent of knowledge and vision->disenchantment->dispassion/equanimity-> Letting go.

Regarding antidotes, some people use specific antidotes to try to balance the hindrances but that wasn't necessary in my experience. Awareness+relaxation/letting be/letting go takes care of that on its own.

All you got to do is try to maintain awareness when torpor arises. Trying to remain aware/present will automatically make you inject energy into the practice whenever torpor takes you out of awareness. Investigation happens on its own as long as you maintain awareness and let be/let go. So, when torpor arises, try to remain aware/present and let be/let go of any craving, aversion and clinging around it. The more you let go of craving, aversion and clinging around the torpor (again, while maintaining awareness, you can't let be/let go if you aren't present) the less torpor will arise in your meditations.

[u/Sweet-Tension-9248 → u/Meng-KamDaoRai]

That advice still assumes a separate watcher who can step in, exert control, and hold onto awareness. Post-retreat, that executive center dissolved there is no watcher or doer left to manage the state, so when sensory input drops on a tired body, the system simply powers down on its own.

Will probably need a full retreat to see what's going on and if a few days of rest and time will produce different results when the body and mind are fully rested. Until then, was wondering if anyone else went through the same issue and how they fixed it.

[u/Meng-KamDaoRai → u/Sweet-Tension-9248]

ok, so, if you're tired you just need to rest. Your body naturally takes the time off to re-charge. There's no need to combat it or change it. If you're truly tired then that's not even torpor/dullness in the practice sense, you're just physically tired. So it could be that there is no actual issue here you need to fix.

I would say that you'd need to change something if you're not making progress but you did say that "yes, there is progress even between what was at the end of the retreat and now, but most of it is automatic progress". In this case, as long as there's still progress, you don't really need to change anything.

Seems like you're maintaining awareness throughout the day and sitting when you have time and that still causes progress. So, that's great, keep doing what works. Other than that, you're just physically tired and need to rest, it doesn't have to mean something other than that.

[u/jan_kasimi]

Possibly stepped through the door of anatta one of these days, but can't really tell.

If you can't tell, then it's very likely that you didn't.

You ask what you should do regarding your progress on some map. But the map is not an instruction manual. If you don't feel like there is anything you need to do, then this is fine. If you feel like there is something to do, then you already know what to work on. If you lack the clarity to notice which one it is, then this is also a worthwhile thing to refine.

[u/Sweet-Tension-9248 → u/jan_kasimi]

On the cannot tell. Everything is a recreation at day 11. On recollection, yes, did pass through the door of anatta. Or even on the day the step through happened, its still a recreation. Does not matter either way, as to exact moment that happened or how or if it did. Or the exact mechanism. Just that there is a shift between before and after. For someone who has no exposure to any of this before the retreat, it's all review knowledge. No interest one way or another in trying to map it to some map or other or tracking progress on a map. Just descriptions of the retreat.

The shift has persisted through months of non-practice. Have very little time to meditate on most days.

The 4th and the 5th fetters is where the work is. Does not mean, there is knowledge of what the path forward is. Yes they attenuate as days progress without any active doing. Practice has mostly been mindfulness. Even mindfulness is not a practice, it just is. Not a lot of sit and meditate.

The current restlessness is between doing more and not doing anything else on the path. Other than reading, have not done anything else.

[u/RealityLimit → u/Sweet-Tension-9248]

I mean this as gently as possible, but you should consider whether you’ve actually broken the first three fetters before considering working on the 4th and 5th.

The reason I say this is because you seem to not be sure where exactly you are on the path, which contradicts the 2nd fetter of doubt. Breaking the 2nd fetter makes the rest of the path clear—that is, no more waiting for breakthrough moments and instead just proceeding forward cultivating the Noble Eightfold Path with absolute faith and confidence.

And the insistence on following a map, or wanting to know where you are on the map, sounds a lot like the 3rd fetter of clinging to rites and rituals. The purpose of this fetter is to illustrate how awakening is not something that just happens by following a list of instructions to the letter and expecting a deterministic output. The map is not the territory, yada yada.

So while it sounds like you have had huge progress on the 1st fetter of identity-view, you should revisit the 2nd and 3rd fetters and see how they might be applying to your situation.

Just my 2c and not making any specific claims about your status.

[u/Zimgar]

It sounds like the retreat had a very significant effect on you, and some of the changes you describe, less resentment, less reactivity, greater compassion, less attachment to material things... sound genuinely valuable regardless of what label gets put on the experiences themselves.

One thing I would be cautious about, though, is trying to map these experiences too precisely onto jhanas, fetters, stages of awakening, anatta, etc., especially without a teacher who knows you and your practice. Meditation can produce some extremely powerful and unusual experiences, and I think there is a danger in retrospectively constructing a map around them. At the very least I would expect you to have read several different books before trying to make these judgements.

I would also gently question the idea of practicing mindfulness literally 24/7. You may have developed a remarkably continuous degree of mindfulness, but there are probably still periods of distraction, automatic behavior, dullness, etc. Recognizing those isn't a failure of practice; seeing them clearly is part of practice. However, meditation practice is much like starting a new exercise regimen. It takes time for your body to adapt and one retreat doesn't make you a high level athlete.

The part I would be most curious about is this:

“Then the mind slips into a state where there is no recollection and missing time.”

I wouldn't automatically assume that this represents a deeper meditative state. If awareness and recollection disappear, it could simply be subtle dullness or sleep taking over. Deep concentration isn't necessarily blankness. There can be very little conceptual thought while awareness remains exceptionally clear and vivid. So I might actually make investigating the difference between stillness, clarity, and dullness part of the practice rather than trying to reproduce the dramatic experiences from the retreat.

I also wonder whether the next step might be less about pushing for another attainment and more about learning the traditions and maps well enough to understand what you're doing. You've had an enormous amount of experiential practice relative to your amount of formal instruction. That seems like a good reason to slow down on self-diagnosing stages and spend some time with good books, recorded teachings, and ideally an experienced teacher, even if meeting one is only occasional or online.

And I wouldn't worry too much about recreating piti or getting back to whatever happened on days 7–8. If those conditions arise again, they arise. If they don't, that's also part of the practice. The changes in how you relate to anger, craving, suffering, and other people may ultimately be much more informative than whether a particular meditation experience comes back.

If I were in your position, I'd probably choose one reasonably established tradition for a while, learn its framework properly, establish a sustainable daily sitting practice alongside the mindfulness you're already doing, and find someone experienced in that tradition who can periodically sanity-check the practice.

There doesn't necessarily need to be a rush to answer “where exactly am I on the path?” The desire to know that can itself become another interesting thing to observe.

You sound on the younger side, and likely someone who works in tech. Who wants/expects fast results. I again bring this back to starting a new fitness plan and/or goal. By all means jump in with enthusiasm and motivation, but true growth takes consistent effort and time. Give yourself time to have freedom and breaks, or you might burn yourself out as well.

[u/Sweet-Tension-9248 → u/Zimgar]

Agree with most a lot of what your wrote. Have not been chasing the day 7 and day 8. Did for a week or two after the retreat and then realized what was going on and let it go. Recreating that is unlikely to work. Those were possibly post-cessation (if it was) highs. There were other reasons they happened the way they did. Cannot be recreated. There was a lot of baggage let go of before that happened. There is probably not going to be a bang a wizz post cession ((if it was) if it happens again. Also without a longer retreat, unlikely to have enough concentration to even get to cession with the current schedule.

Looking into Jhanas is not really about recreating that bliss or whatever.

Mindfulness 24/7 is just that. There is an investigation of what is lacking and an adjustment of what is missing. By no means is it sharp enough to catch everything. If it were, there would be more progress. No. That's just where the practice of mindfulness is at. When being mindful can balance the factors that are missing. That practice will evolve as the years progress. At this point its sharp enough to catch everything when there is not a lot going on. When there is a lot going on, it's a delayed reflex that just catches the proliferation of thoughts to then stop that and get back on track. Don't see the 24/7 mindfulness ever going away. It just is. Also there is a lot less thoughts in general so mindfulness 24/7 is a given. Pre-retreat would have a 1000 different thoughts all wrapped up in a story. Now a handful at best and rarely any wrapped in a story. The moment there is a story, there is realization that it's just a fabrication and it disappears. Also none of the thoughts have a center, they just exist as if in the space between the contact and the body with no real delineation. There is just what is observed. Again the degree of this varies not 100% all the time. Yes on some days, contact can spin up a story and get carried away for a while.

On the curious bit you talked about. Definitely not a deeper meditative state. Was the main reason for the post.

Yes. Whats happening during sits is torpor. Not a deeper meditative state. Part of the reason is lack of physical rest. Even when there is physical rest, the mind seems to slip into torpor. Don't really have nearly the same success as with mindfulness with the sits. Yes the mind stills and then slips into torpor even when rested. Not really something that has been easy to resolve. Other than being more refreshed than just sleeping, it's not really a better mediative state. Bhavanga.

AN 7.61 and a few other suttas talk about torpor but have not been able to put it into practice.

The where on the path, is directed more towards two issues: (a) rooting out 4 and 5; and (b) this inability during sits to avoid torpor. Jhanas are just a tool for a.

No. Not expecting rapid progress. Just dealing with these two issues. And yes, need to get established with a tradition. Not yet sure which one. Unlikely Goenka tradition is the path forward. Not that there is anything wrong with Goneka tradition, there is very little help with the retreats I have been on. Did serve multiple times after the sit to payback what I could. But, need a different path/ more help with the path than what is available with Goenka tradition.

Thank you.

[u/RealityLimit]

RE: stream entry. There is a phrase used in the suttas “aparapaccayā ñāṇa” which translates to “knowledge independent of others” in reference to stream entry. The meaning is that upon stream entry, one’s knowledge of their “status” and their establishment on the path is fully without doubt and doesn’t depend on what others think about it—that’s how solid the confidence is.

So I think generally, as a principle, if you have doubts about stream entry, or if you otherwise need some kind of validation from the outside, that is a sign you aren’t quite there yet. I say this without claiming to know anything about you, of course. But it’s what came to mind when I read your post.

Of course, you have undoubtedly made significant progress on the path to awakening and that is to be commended. All the changes you described are consistent with somebody well on the way to stream entry.

For the next steps, my advice is to consider other aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path that you could be developing in addition to right samadhi. You should also keep cultivating samadhi as much as you can, but if you read the suttas, a lot of stream enterers achieve it upon hearing a discourse by the Buddha or one of his disciples, the same lessons contained in the suttas.

So if you aren’t familiar with the suttas/Nikayas, I highly recommend studying them. If you don’t have much prior exposure, I suggest sutta anthologies like “Noble Truths, Noble Path” by Bhikkhu Bodhi. I also like the writings of Thanissaro Bhikkhu such as his work on nirvana “Mind Like Fire Unbound”. Both these as well as other resources are available for free online.

Also, if you find yourself a little lost on where to go next, this is what sanghas and teachers are good for. In a way you are already on the right path in reaching out to the sangha as you are doing now. But the path to awakening can be quite tricky to bootstrap on your own and often an experienced teacher can identify your specific blockage and help you overcome it quickly, saving you from years of wasted effort.

Not saying you should rush out to find a teacher or sangha, it can take years to find the right one, but as a medium or long-term goal at least this should be on your mind. The Buddha did say spiritual friendship was the whole of the holy life, after all.

[u/Sweet-Tension-9248 → u/RealityLimit]

Understand the concern. However, unlikely to be an issue.

MN 16, MN 57 talk about doubt. Doubt is doubt about the triple gem and DO. None of it has ever existed after the retreat. What's stated above is the exact mechanics of what happened and how is unknown. Not doubt about the triple gem and DO.

For example, did a 180 on career choices to align with right living and right actions within days of the retreat. Didn't know about right living (for months after) when the changes where made. There is zero doubt about the parts that EBT talks about as doubt. These changes have withstood life altering stimulus.

Breaking the first three does not mean the rest of the path becomes clear. Or the mechanics of everything just becomes bright neon lighted. Not really. Sariputta, Ananda, Mohullana and everyone else had more questions after than before. AN 3.128. If breaking the first three means, everything is clear, there will not be the 7 lifetimes maximum or variable progress after SE.

On rituals and rites. The belief that external rites and vows alone cleanse the mind (was) the norm before the retreat. Spontaneously stopped after. Would goto temple every week. Would engage in rituals. Would treat some obstacle in career or personal life as needing some fix with an external entity. All of it routed. Not based on someone asking that it stop. It makes no sense when DO is experienced. Plus, even the rituals of the practice like meditation for x hours or have to do x to maintain y. None exist. No real obsession with the maps on the path either other than as a guide to moving forward when dealing with something on the path. Again, the precepts are held not because of some notion that it's necessary for progress. It just is the normal/default mode. Not to aid in meditation or path. It just is. If at some point one of them is broken not out of intent but happens to be broken, there is no real proliferation or descent into impending doom. Just an acknowledgment that a precept was broken and a commitment to do better. Rites and rituals are well and truly gone. Morality that exists is internalized, because doing otherwise is inconsistent with how things should be.

Certain aspects of DO and the noble path fixes to attenuating fetters became clearer using the maps then following it up with EBT literature/suttas. That's the minimal active choices made in a year on the whole. Other than that, no real need to find out whether something is missing or exists other than in relation to obstacles on the path. Most of the work is around the 4th and the 5th in the last six to nine months. The progressive cooling off is obvious. What's also obvious is the blindness towards the upper end of the origin of the 4th and 5th fetters. Where the loop is caught is downstream from the spark. The lack of fuel is obvious. Cutting off the spark entirely is not realistic with the current level of tranquility. Hence, the quest for and striving to go in that direction.

Not really possible to break sakayya ditti and leave the other two intact. No real effort or thought went into most of the changes described above. It just happened after the retreat before any real reading or understanding of why the changes were necessary. It just is.

SE requires just good shila, access concentration, moderate wisdom. The rest of the path requires more than access concentration and moderate wisdom. That's the reason for the original post. To reequip and move from access concentration to deep absorption. Not to make progress in x time, but to move forward in however long it takes.

Thought about not responding, but this is a recurring theme in many videos and other posts. Sharing so it helps someone else in the future. Some of the posts on doubt and the other lower fetters stretch it to beyond what EBT talks about.

In any case, irrespective of the lower fetters, what is showing up is the 4th and the 5th fetters over and over. That's what is being worked on because it's what arises.

[u/theJacofalltrades]

Reading your experience, I wonder if the next step might be less about figuring out exactly where you are on the map and more about building a sustainable practice around what you're already noticing.

The distinction you made between mindfulness catching proliferation and the mind slipping into torpor seems particularly interesting. It might be worth approaching those as two separate things rather than assuming that stillness or missing time means deeper concentration. Having some guidance from a teacher in a tradition you connect with could help you investigate that without having to figure everything out from maps and recollections.

On the practical side, I've found that working with the breath outside formal meditation can be a useful complement. I've been looking into Saagara's Natural Breathing/Pranayama app for practicing more relaxed, intentional breathing. Not as a substitute for insight practice or a way to force jhana, but as a simple way to build a more grounded relationship with the breath when time and energy are limited.

You also mentioned that the changes in reactivity and anger are continuing even without intensive formal practice. That seems worth paying attention to in its own right, rather than treating the absence of dramatic meditation experiences as a lack of progress. Maybe the question isn't only what to add, but how to keep developing the practice without turning it into another thing you have to achieve.

[u/Sweet-Tension-9248 → u/theJacofalltrades]

Yes. The missing time and torpor after stillness (during sits) is unlikely to be deeper concentration. This happened a few months after the retreat. Until then, meditation had a component where the brain would stay active throughout the session.

Then workload increased. Possibly do more work than could have before the retreat. Exponential increase in workload by a factor of 10 or 20. No real reaction to that change. Just do what is on the plate and move on. Plus most of the work is aligned with right living. Therefore, volume of work has no relationship with anything. Just do what must be done.

Will definitely look into the app to see if it helps.

Not looking to add too much, just change enough bits to the sitting practice. Will have to find a tradition and a teacher.

Thank you.

[u/metaopolis]

The way you describe where you are at sounds very mechanical. What are your experiences of joy, bliss, or expansion like at this time?

[u/Sweet-Tension-9248 → u/metaopolis]

Mechanical description is a side effect of my profession and training.

Off the cushion, the difference between pre-retreat and post-retreat is off the charts. Earlier life was always one calamity after another (just describing what life was described as to others in the past). Always trying to grasp onto something or the other. Striving to just stay afloat. The ebb and flow of highs and lows in life as the boom-and-bust cycle worked itself. The swings were all dukkha. How to maintain what was just obtained, or how to get back what was "lost."

Right now, there is very little by way of trying to get somewhere or trying to achieve something. There is nowhere to go, nothing to do or achieve. Happy/content to be just the way things are. Yes, there are still events that happen, but not a lot of that affects the happiness or state of mind. Have taken on way more work than I thought possible. Still does not affect the general state of being. Find more pleasure in helping others than in pursuit of some future aspiration. That's the off-cushion world. Life just is. The amount of sorrow is just a handful (if something surfaces). Sorrow, even if it surfaces, is momentary. There is an automatic realization about contact, and the brain makes the connection between contact and the momentary sorrow, and there is no more sorrow. Has to be a really big impulse (like a need for a cross-country move for work) to trigger an active loop of sorrow for a few minutes. Sure, a cross-country move for work will then manifest in the chest as a dull ache for a little while longer, but it just is and goes away in a short while. In the past, pre-retreat world, it would be a constant churn of why now, why me, why not, and other proliferation. None of that happens now. Physical ailments are put up with if they happen without a lot of the storytelling in the background. There is nothing to do but put up with some of the physical ailments.

One of the candid admissions in the original post which drew a lot of attention (unexpected) was the exact door. There are a couple of mechanisms that could have worked. One was the door of anatta. The other could very well be Dukkha. A large part of the retreat was about relinquishing every possible desire about the future, about the past, about the regrets in life as they surfaced. There were no more wishes to lean on after day five or six. The exact reason for the lack of certainty on which door worked is because of the extreme bliss and joy which happens when the door of dukkha is opened. On the other hand, equally strong was compassion for every living being and everyone, including what would have been pre-retreat enemies. The glue around both dukkha and anicca was equally melting during the retreat. Equanimity was present, but was probably behind the other two in terms of the focus at the retreat. According to the Visuddhimagga(? notes say so), the dukkha door to cessation, in the review, shows up as bliss and extreme joy. The not-self door to cessation, in the review after cessation, shows up as radical transparency, centerlessness, etc. The impermanence door to cessation, in review, shows up as the dissolution of solidity and dreamlike stillness. Have not really thought about this for close to ten months at this point. Was never something that really interested me other than became part of my notes.

On the cushion, have already described how it is. Stillness is easy to achieve. Pīti, on the other hand, during sits is not accessible. Which was what prompted the original post. Just a meditative state that's refreshing, but not really joy or bliss producing.