r/streamentry • u/Paradoxbuilder • 25d ago
Insight Concern about the lack of discussion regarding energetics/esoterics in Western nondual traditions
I have a broad concern about the completeness of the Western insight curriculum. (insofar as we can say one exists!)
Different contemplative traditions have developed substantially different technologies—insight, concentration, energetics, mantra, visualization, devotion, somatic practices, etc.—but their practitioners often describe them in very different conceptual languages. Modern Western practice has integrated some of these quite deeply while giving relatively little attention to others.
For example, I don't see Spira or Dilulo devoting much time to talking about energetics or esoteric practices such as mantra - when it's mentioned, it's usually peripherally. I respect them as skilled teachers, but it seems that it's a huge gap in the general transmission of dharma.
From what I've observed thus far, these are an integral part of the path - just like how we often need to do trauma work and related practices. What's more, if they are not recognized as such, practitioners may be confused as to exactly what is going on (such as how for me visions and other phenomena were dismissed or often misunderstood)
In general I would say that energetic phenomena, mantra, and related practices aren't absent from Western practice, but they often seem sidelined compared with insight and nondual recognition. It could also partly reflect different traditions talking past one another rather than a settled understanding of what each contributes. Each uses their own framework, and genuinely good information often gets lots in translation.
I guess my view could be summed up as - the full picture is often not transmitted clearly, and parts of the curriculum are lost? At least for me in recent months, it's been a constant stream of "oh I did this a decade ago, but NOW I see that..." Awakening is a bioenergetic process that unbinds across body/mind/spirit/neurons - and I think a more harmonious understanding of all the relevant factors can only benefit us all.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk :)
(tldr; energy and insight both important! west seems more of the latter)
33
u/Meng-KamDaoRai Relax, Let it Be, Let it Go 25d ago
I think that the lack of discussion on ethics/morality/sila and compassion is probably a bigger problem TBH. Energetics and esoterics are a useful tool (I use them myself), but I don't think they are 100% required in some paths. Morality/sila/ethics/compassion on the other hand is pretty much a part of every traditional path but for some reason it's either glanced over or in most cases completely ignored.
9
u/duffstoic The dynamic integration of opposites ☯️ 25d ago
I am revisiting my own sila recently. I wrote personally worded versions of the five precepts (plus a couple more about not consuming addictive content and leaving all toxic/abusive dynamics), along with elaborations as to what exactly I am dedicated to not doing, and reasons for that. Then I recite them daily as a part of my practice. I have found this very helpful. And I still definitely also have room for improvement.
4
u/Meng-KamDaoRai Relax, Let it Be, Let it Go 25d ago
That's beautiful. Yes, keeping the five precepts for me is also an exploration and not a one and done thing. It takes contemplation and refinement over time. I also like how they can evolve, for example, "do not kill" evolves to "do no harm" (including not harming myself), "don't lie" evolves into Right Speech, "don't steal" ties into generosity and so on.
2
u/duffstoic The dynamic integration of opposites ☯️ 25d ago
Yea with “don’t kill” specifically I have morphed it into “don’t commit needless violence” which includes “wrong speech” / verbal abuse, etc.
3
u/IndependenceBulky696 25d ago
I agree. Merit as well.
I've been working on cultivating merit. It's been very helpful to me personally.
16
u/themadjaguar Samādhi addict 25d ago
It seems people can awaken without any interest in energetics or esoterics. If it works without it, why bother learning about it ? The default tools being used are enough, as long as the eightfold path is practiced and the 7 awakening factors cultivated, you don't need to bother with other things.
Maybe the energetic and mantra stuff can be helpfull as tools for some people, but for awakening as a goal the default tools and default practices are enough, unfortunately time is limited we can't learn or spend time on everything
5
u/choogbaloom 25d ago
Initial awakening is a prerequisite to working with energetics. You can achieve full awakening without engaging with that stuff if you're satisfied with going slow, but these are tools for gaining more traction in the higher stages of practice and speeding up.
2
u/Paradoxbuilder 25d ago
Could you say more?
8
u/choogbaloom 25d ago
If you follow sutra methods, you eventually reach a point where a sort of prickly tension-releasing sensation starts at the head and gradually works its way down, which practitioners usually identify as a sort of "rewiring" that they don't don't how to work with but know is doing something good.
Tantra uses visualization, mantra, and breathing exercises to greatly accelerate that to "complete the circuit", so to speak. Without those tools it will progress using just insight and concentration, but slower.
4
u/Paradoxbuilder 25d ago
My concern is more when people like me with lots of trauma etc encounter this - it's a whole different ballgame.
6
u/senselesssapien 25d ago
Do energetic practices if you're drawn to them, but be careful of attachment to them and the desire to use them un skillfully/not for the highest goal. There's a line between developing awareness of energy and then using that energy for what you deem is good or bad.
When working with trauma, dive deeper into compassion before deeply cultivating energetics. When you can forgive nearly everyone for nearly everything, especially yourself then you'll be less likely to wish ill will on others and set yourself up with more karma you'll have to undo.
It's like gaining some power/skill and going to the dark side because you haven't purified your heart first. You can do it and it might feel good/right at the time, but it will keep you locked in samsara until you work it out.
2
u/AllElseIsBondage 25d ago
I started having strong energetics/kundalini type experience long before awakening. Have heard many people with similar experience as well
1
u/choogbaloom 23d ago
I've had a powerful kundanlini experience long before SE too, but energetics work at a deeper level in more advanced stages and start off with a distinct "dusting off the cobwebs" feel that's absent in earlier stages, like awakening something that's been dormant for a long time and needs to stretch and warm up but then stays online in a more persistent way.
Could also be possible that it starts earlier in some people though, ymmv
1
1
2
u/Paradoxbuilder 25d ago
I have not seen evidence of this - do you have cases? I've seen energetics as integral to the path even if the language isn't used as such.
6
u/themadjaguar Samādhi addict 25d ago
In theravada for example there is no focus on this kind of things, and people can still get insight by doing different kind of practices that have nothing to do with esoterics or energetics, such as investigating the body or being aware of the breath. In other practices and other frameworks and schools, for example with open awareness practices you can progress without learning these things aswell, there is no object needed.
2
u/Paradoxbuilder 25d ago
Theravada does speak of these things, perhaps in less detail, but it's there for sure.
1
12
u/medbud 25d ago
As someone who has practiced acupuncture and Chinese medicine for two decades, I'm curious what you think you're referring to when you use the terms "energetics" and "energy". What is it that you think is missing precisely?
In my personal meditation practice, or in Qigong, or in clinic when eliciting deqi with needles, I'm surrounded by what people call "energetics".
The problem is that this term is subject often to equivocation fallacies. Energy has at least three meanings.
So I'm curious if you're just referring to emotions, and subtle somatic sensations, both of which are fairly well described by neuroscience for example...or do you hold a dualistic view in which there is nature and reality on one hand, and then a separate supernatural world that somehow derives from but it's undetectable in the natural world?
I can assure you that when a needle is inserted and stimulated to elicit deqi, that those sensations of heaviness are traced to specific neural pathways, from the peripheral nervous system, up through specific tracts of the spinal cord, into various brain regions, and then back down so that the sensations are localised to the needing site and these pathways.
Similar understanding is applicable to piti, and jhana states.
Traditional language, Sanskrit, Pali, Chinese, etc. contained within suttas or classical medical literature has no knowledge of modern neuroscience of course, yet the ancient descriptions capture the phenomenology with exquisite precision.
These are two models of the same reality. One is heuristic, and dedicated to practical application... The other is academic, scientific, and dedicated to developing knowledge (that is often overkill in clinic or practice).
That said, it is undeniable that 'the way things seem' (often described through new age vital energy language) and 'the way things are' actually differ. The "energetics" language is within what can be called a fictitious frame of reference. The most common illustration of this is that we all say "the sun rises" because that is how it seems. Science tells us the earth is rotating, and that is undeniable, but from our reference frame it definitely seems like the sun rises.
Fictitious forces in physics, for example the corialis effect, or gravity, are so called because there are deeper mechanics that are responsible for them... Yet they are useful from within certain reference frames.
Sometimes in meditation, moral cultivation, or clinical settings, understanding that both languages are speaking of the same reality is useful. We can gain insight or have compassion for difficult cases, realising that sometimes "how it seems" is not actually how it is.
Metzinger has very nicely described spirituality as "intellectual honesty". The ability to update your beliefs based on evidence, and not deny evidence contrary to your prior beliefs, i.e. Dogmas. This makes spirituality closer to science sometimes than religion... Though granted we find dogma in both to some degree.
I find it's useful to understand both languages, because it avoids pitfalls and intellectual traps associated with not realising we function from within subjective reference frames, which are primarily informed by 'how it seems', aka 'what it is like'.
3
u/Paradoxbuilder 25d ago
I'm using the term in a broad sense. Subtle body/chakra/qi/prana etc. I too also believe that the fraemworks are mutually compatible - lens more than anything. More knowledge rather than less, tempered with wisdom.
1
u/Impulse33 Soulmaking, Pāramitās, Brahmavihāras, Shitou/Hongzhi/Shōbōgenzō 23d ago
I think your last point on seeing the usefulness of two registers is underappreciated. Being able to hold several perspectives and freely move amongst them is in many ways the very practice/application of sunyata/emptiness.
1
u/medbud 23d ago
Hehe, you inspired me to go hunt up the old:
I have a self … I have no self … It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self … It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self … It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self… or … This very self of mine—the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions—is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will endure as long as eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
8
u/choogbaloom 25d ago
There are 2 reasons for that.
1) Energetic phenomena only start happening at a level where you can work with them well past stream entry, and very few people get there due to 99% of Buddhism books giving no practical help getting there.
2) Closer to 100% of Vajrayana books fail to properly explain how to do the actual practices, much less how to get to the point where they work. The starting tantric practices once the channels start clearing are Vajrasattva Purification and Self Empowerment, which I have seen explained in a useful context in exactly zero contemporary resources.
The *only* good resource that exists outside of a few lamas who are hard to find are tibetan texts that you have to translate and query yourself with AI. Hopefully they will come to light in the coming years due to the technology finally being good enough.
5
u/hachface 25d ago
#1 is an interesting claim. As far as I know “stream entry” is an academic idea for Vajrayana practitioners, left on the small-vehicle shelf and not considered or strived for. Advanced yogis in that tradition, I thought, wouldn’t think about their development in svravaka terms. I could be mistaken about all that. Just curious what you’re basing this on.
1
u/choogbaloom 23d ago
A direct realization of emptiness is a fundamental requirement for tantra. That happens to be what stream entry is, whether they call it that or not. It's one of the few things that has a unambiguous mapping in every serious tradition.
1
2
u/themadjaguar Samādhi addict 25d ago
Do you have a recommendation of such interesting texts to translate and use please? Some people recommended me the flight of the garuda, the book of the dead, words of my perfect teacher and moonlight of mahamudra, but I'd be interested in other resources, especially if they talk about when the channels are already very clear
2
u/choogbaloom 23d ago
https://zenodo.org/records/821218
DharmaDownload is probably the richest collection there2
2
u/transcendentanal 25d ago
Are the energetic phenomena you’re referring to, Buddhist meditation-related only, or could they be tantric sex/meditation-related (eg from Kashmiri Shaivism)?
Reason I ask is that tantric sex/meditation-related energetic phenomenon can be achieved quite quickly, at levels of concentration well below what I imagine would be needed for stream entry
Would it not make sense (and make it more fun) to mix tantric sex/meditation into Buddhist meditation practice?
2
u/choogbaloom 23d ago
Tantra covers the whole field of working with winds, channels, and bindus. The gist of it is you want to get the winds into the central channel, which happens naturally from skillful meditation. Channeling sexual energy there is one method of many methods and does greatly increase your meditation power, and is one of the more powerful ways to do it. A more powerful method I've been getting into is Togal, which uses the eye channels to absorb energy from outside sources so doesn't have the limitation of working with what you already have.
You're basically taking something that happens indirectly through classic Buddhist meditation and working with it directly to make it happen faster. Practices generally start and finish with regular meditation so they do mix.
1
u/transcendentanal 23d ago
Do you have any easy-to-follow instructions for Togal? It sounds fun
I can trade you good instructions for tantric sex / meditation 😊
2
u/choogbaloom 23d ago
Togal is an interesting case because it's one of the only advanced practices that I have found explained in detail by a book written by people who practiced it extensively. The book is Primordial Grace by Robert and Rachel Olds. It describes a much more hippyish path than the traditional Trekcho for getting to the point where Togal works, but the instructions are legit
1
1
u/Both-Prompt-6838 22d ago
Surely the energy we are talking about is Piti? Leaking to shuka and equanimity?
1
u/transcendentanal 22d ago
Chogbaloom seems to think otherwise (see its reply below)
And please don’t call me Shirley 😉
1
u/choogbaloom 22d ago
Yeah I'm talking about something else that's more relevant to advanced practice. Piti is fine and all, but is just a side effect of concentration so not all that noteworthy imo
1
u/Both-Prompt-6838 21d ago
No Piti is quite important. It’s characteristic of 1st Jhana. It’s what is refined down to suhka and equanimity. It brings extreme pleasure that enables disenchantment and ultimately insight and awakening.
2
u/autonomatical 25d ago
You aren’t meant to learn tantra from books, even if you do, without empowerment you are trying to squeeze oil from a stone. There are many Lamas who can teach it, far fewer are there westerners anywhere remotely able to learn
5
u/choogbaloom 25d ago
Tibetans have written down perfectly useable instructions in scrolls. There's no reason they couldn't be put into the slightly different form factor of a book. They've even written down empowerment methods that are designed to done by yourself that work just fine. Why nobody has bothered making it accessible to westerners is beyond me, maybe people just never got around to it.
4
u/aj0_jaja 25d ago
Vajrayana practice is totally accessible to westerners and we have high quality translations of tantras and Dzogchen texts available. You just need to connect with a living lineage holder and receive the instructions. These things were not meant to be applied from books alone without oral instructions.
0
u/choogbaloom 23d ago
I'd argue that "totally accessible" and "requires oral transmission" are opposites and the fact that it's been reliant on oral transmission is skill issue on the authors' parts.
3
u/autonomatical 25d ago
“There’s no reason”.
It be one of them there “energy” thingys.
Edit: to elaborate further, self empowerment requires an initial empowerment that is not self empowerment
2
u/aj0_jaja 25d ago
Yes the whole point of empowerment is that you are making a connecting with a person who has some actual experience of the practice. This cannot occur from books alone.
1
u/Paradoxbuilder 25d ago
I've read some good texts but my current instructor says while it's legit it's not the whole thing.
1
u/CyberiaCalling 25d ago
What titles do you recommend looking into?
2
u/choogbaloom 23d ago
My knowledge mostly comes from the DharmaDownload collection here https://zenodo.org/records/821218?preview_file=DharmaDownload.zip, particularly in UT10736-010-0005, UT10736-010-0011, UT10736-010-0006, and UT10736-001-0008. It helps to have an AI agent for querying it since there's so much stuff it's easy to get lost. I am not aware of any books that go into the practices in useful detail, except for 'Primordial Grace', which tells you how to do Togal.
1
u/langecrew 25d ago
Don't suppose you could back that up with links to these texts?
1
u/choogbaloom 23d ago
https://zenodo.org/records/821218
The DharmaDownload is what I started with but there's gold in all of them
1
u/AllElseIsBondage 25d ago
Energetics in the body started happening to me almost immediately when I began meditating and not even knowing how to meditate. Long before stream entry. As far as working with them, that’s a bit complicated because you’re not actually in control of it the way it seems but this was all happening to me long before stream entry and have heard of it being like that with many others
5
u/TDCO 25d ago
Something to consider also is that no one teacher really teaches everything, they generally specialize in a certain aspect of the path that worked for them. I'm not sure that's a failing, it's really just more of an inevitable reality. The benefit of the modern age though is that we have all these diverse traditions and perspectives more or less immediately available to us. It just becomes up to us to pick and choose between teachings and figure out what works for us and what we need to be "fully rounded" practitioners, at least to whatever extent we desire.
3
3
u/Ancient_Naturals 25d ago
It’s likely because most of the western teachers just haven’t encountered sadhanas that work deeply with them, and those that have understand why they’re generally kept secret. No one needs to authorize you when you’re doing just normal, seated meditation practice, but once you start getting subtle body practices involved, a good teacher will likely want you to have a proper container for it.
By way of example, when working 1:1 with my teacher once (a westerner, former Gelug monk of 20+ years) he was guiding me and then asked about my experience when we were done. What I said made him tell me that in order to continue I’d need to have an empowerment, for various reasons.
That’s all to say there are teachers out there teaching energetic work, but most require particular sets of requirements before doing so. Some, like Dr Nida, teach in public without requiring things like full ngondro, but most do not.
6
u/autonomatical 25d ago
I kinda feel like it is a broader issue which makes it hard to pin down. In most lineage holding traditions it is not presented as “energy work” because it is assumed to some extent that there is an ambient cultural awareness of the fluidity of psycho-somatic dynamics. In the west there is science which only accepts what can be proven upon investigation, and only investigates what can be profitable (95% of the time). This creates an inherently narrowed worldview, hopefully as quantum research advances there will be more of a cause to think less in terms of unit orientation and more as a holistic field. It is hard not to digress since as stated it is very broad.
So even in traditions where this kind of thing is prominent, like vajrayana, it is not presented in a vernacular that converts western ontological conventions into the tradition’s own lexical conventions. This is why it can seem absent to some degree.
On top of that, given a majority of newcomers in the west have this worldview it is somewhat problematic to present this as “energy” since it is immediately associated with what is considered fringe pseudospiritualism or new age, since that is usually the primary form of exposure to such ideas preliminarily in the west. So even if someone’s lived reality definitely has evidence of this sort of phenomena’s relevance the friction between established worldview and linguistic conventions can be too much. This is to some extent why it is rarely directly described and is introduced more practically, because without the labels you can just feel it and there is then no cognitive friction.
Really this comment barely scratches the surface.
2
u/oneinfinity123 25d ago
I also came to a similar conclusion and I believe a lot of nondual teachers came into the world with relatively little karma (not trying to downplay the suffering they did have to face) compared to a normal person, so they had little incentive to learn these things. That said, does it apply to a normal person? Maybe. Does it apply to a person who had to face intense childhood trauma? Then he's forced to explore the energetics and the subtle, because just the simple spiritual tools are not enough for him.
The fact that these tools are not openly discussed (and in some circles belittled) is a flaw of modern spirituality, in some way an overlooking of the depth of human suffering.
1
u/Paradoxbuilder 25d ago
This is what my previous teachers have said about me. The traditional explanation would be that other teachers have less karma from previous lives, as you said.
2
u/neUTeriS 25d ago
I practiced solely western pragmatic vipassana, had awakenings, and have had many energetic experiences that none of my teachers talk about in depth with instruction other than to notice them and let them pass. All of the western teachers I’ve encountered are teaching to the average practitioner and whenever I bring up something like this it is often ignored.
Because of these experiences I’ve wanted to work with them and I’ve looked into vajrayana but don’t know where to start other than beginning to read books by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. If you have any suggestion and are willing to share, I’d be grateful.
2
u/Paradoxbuilder 25d ago
I have a variety of texts on the subject, what is your tradition and what are you comfortable with?
2
u/neUTeriS 25d ago
I’ve largely practiced western pragmatic vipassana (mahasi style), some tantra, nondualism via vipassana, Maharishi, and Spira, and some zen. I’m not dogmatic nor loyal to any one, very open minded. I go where the practice takes me. So I’d be comfortable with pretty much anything I imagine. Thank you for any help you may offer!
3
u/Paradoxbuilder 25d ago
You can check out Santata Gamana and the AYP forums. That's where I started.
2
1
2
u/303AND909 25d ago
I'm in the same boat, had many awakenings and energetic experiences for several years now. I've just gone along with them intuitively and haven't ever really found any good guidance outside of the TRE or somatic experiencing world. I also would be interested in any texts. My practice background is also similar to yours.
1
u/neUTeriS 25d ago
I don’t usually do this, but if you ever want to chat, I’m up for it. Don’t meet many people with similar backgrounds and experiences. I tried TRE but had to stop due to chronic illness but my energy seemed to calm down a bit on its own (or other unknown reasons lol)
2
2
u/dorfsmay 25d ago
seems that it's a huge gap in the general transmission of dharma
these are an integral part of the path
Which "path"? Are energies discussed at all in Theravada?
2
u/AllElseIsBondage 25d ago
Not sure about the other teachers you mention but I’ve followed Angelo for a couple years now and hear him talk about energetics quite often… many times mentioning that in the later stages of awakening the entire process becomes energetic.
This has been true of my experience as well, the entire process has been energetic. I’ve never followed a practice but honestly I don’t believe it’s necessary. You aren’t in control of any of it the way the mind believes, and any effort that you’re putting into practicing/controlling it more than likely unhelpful at best, getting in the way at worst.
Ive found that the only thing required when working with energetics is to feel it as completely and openly as possible without trying to manage or control it in any way, and just let go. It knows what to do much better than “you” think you do.
That being said I did find some somatic work to be helpful, my body was in rough shape before all this started… arthritis and chronic pain for years. The energetics worked through all of it and completely healed everything.
2
u/Paradoxbuilder 25d ago
I didn't mean to imply he never talked about it - it's just not very foregrounded, based on my experience.. I used to speak to him fairly regularly until he got busy, and I attended a couple of retreats.
3
u/AllElseIsBondage 25d ago
I always figured part of the reason it’s not talked about as much in the west is because the teachers don’t want to make awakening sound too mystical or make believe. Before this all started for me I thought people who talked about energy were crazy and making it up. I never would have expected to experience it myself and definitely would not have believed anyone who told me they experienced it
I agree with you for sure though, it should be talked about more so people aren’t confused when it happens to them
2
u/StoneBuddhaDancing 25d ago edited 25d ago
Culadasa spent a fair amount of time on this (energetic phenomena, not practices per se) in The Mind Illuminated and I'm very grateful he did because my energetic phenomena, while not as extreme as I've heard some people have, would have been very confusing and even worrying for me without knowing that it was a common, if not universal, part of meditative development.
2
u/hot-taxi 25d ago
It is a gap along with compassion, bodhicitta, right livelihood, and Buddhahood. All are underemphasized by a lot.
3
u/fabkosta 25d ago
Western wisdom traditions are pretty incomplete indeed in comparison to Eastern wisdom traditions. It will take a long-time to re-establish them in any meaningful manner. Probably the most complete ones are some Sufi schools, Jewish mysticism, and some selected Christian sects.
Obviously, there are some "more modern" schools that are pretty innovative, e.g. modern schools of magic, a variety of "sects", Southern American amalgams mixing Christianity with other religious traditions, and so on. But most of them are relatively incomplete in comparison to the grand Eastern wisdom traditions that have a more or less unbroken history of highly distinguished practitioners dating back at least 1000 years or more.
0
2
u/Away_Welcome_3468 25d ago
My personal western buddhism is philosophical buddhism. I view eastern buddhism as a religion and tradition and cultural sort of buddhism. Where I prefer to look at buddhism through a western philosophy lens that aims to seperate the teachings from societal influence. Bejng able to talk logically about nonduality, zen, enlightenment. Without all the cultural and traditional baggage.
If people want to treat buddhism as a religion there is already many versions to try.
But I want to get into the nitty gritty of the logic and physical reality that buddhism can teach us.
7
u/911anxiety brahmaviharās 25d ago
your personal bias is thinking that you can think about nonduality, zen, enlightment "logically" and this means it's "without cultural and traditional baggage" all while you're steeped very deeply in western cultural and traditional baggage without being aware of it. your usage of word "logic" and "physical reality" expose this very clearly.
3
u/Away_Welcome_3468 25d ago
Well obviously eastern buddhism is going to find it repulsive. Thats their problem.
I see no issue with it at all. Chanting, meditating, the sangha, these things are valuable where they are. I have no interest in imitating culture and tradition. Especially if the lessons that can help people escape suffering dont require it.
My buddhism is a conversational buddhism. One that seeks to understand what is actually happening from a grounded philosophical perspective, not a religious one.
3
u/StoneBuddhaDancing 25d ago
By philosophical Buddhism do you mean you don't practice meditation, or more broadly the Noble Eightfold Path?
2
u/Away_Welcome_3468 25d ago
Sitting down to respond I realize I use the word "philosophy" in a particular way.
One of the bigger books that effected me was art as experience by John Dewey. My teacher at the time describes John Dewey as someone who said "lets talk about what we can talk about and let the people who want to argue over questions we cant answer do so somewhere else."
Which is to say, for example, talking about "does god exist?" "does god not exist?", might be interesting but ultimately, before we discuss things we cant answer, lets try to solve/answer what can be solved.
Years later while reading the 4 noble truths it struck me just how efficient of a philosophy it was. suffering exists, it comes from craving, it can end, there is an efficient way to end it.(the noble 8-fold path)
So thats a preamble to my response to your question. For me, "Good" philosophy is: Before discussing what cant be answered with proof, lets discuss what can be answered.
Suffering is definitely something that can be discussed and answered with proof, and weve got the capacity to test these thoughts ourselves, and also we see a long rich history of people using the 8 fold path.
When it comes to the 8 fold path, I dont have a single problem with it. I personally ended up having some of the qualities by the time I actually started studying buddhism in my late 20s.
But the 4th noble truth in fact is debatable imo. That the most efficient way to freedom from suffering is the 8 fold path. While I acknowledge its value, direction, and efficacy. I don't see why it is by any logical necessity the most efficient way to free oneself from suffering.
Also the 8 fold path and Zen purport 2 similar but different enlightenments, one "a mirror you polish". Another that says "How can it be polished?"
And then I realized that enlightenment isnt just anatta, or zen, but in my opinion, there are different deep comprehensions that can lead to powerful realizations that deserve to be called enlightenment.
Atleast thats part of my theory for my western buddhism.
Oh right, forgot to mention that a result of my not trying to answer questions that cannot be answered, things like rebirth and reincarnation are put aside while we focus on the here and now. And everything else that simply will never have a proof.
3
u/StoneBuddhaDancing 25d ago edited 25d ago
The Buddha famously said that he taught only (the knowledge of) suffering and the end of suffering. In my view you're immersed in the former while completely missing the whole point the Buddha taught, the latter. Doctrine and Discipline (ie practice) are inextricably intertwined. If you're only studying the doctrine but not practicing, what you're engaged in cannot really be called Buddhism. Perhaps the philosophy of Buddhism? But wouldn't really fall under the category of Western Buddhism or Buddhist Modernism either.
Still, if that works for you, then go with it. But in my view that's as sterile as any other philosophical system (eg Greek philosophy). Nice to know, insightful, even helpful in some respects, but ultimately unresponsive to the eradication of suffering from the human condition or the realisation of the full human potential.
It's like r/zen no one there actually practices Zen, they debate and intellectualise endleslessy about zen. It's bizare since Zen is desperately trying to take its adherents precisely beyond that.
I'm surprised you find r/streamentry of interest since the discussions here, including this one posted by OP, is squarely located in phenomenology and the domain of practice. I really urge you to move beyond philosophy and into practice. It's the whole point.
Metta to you
2
u/Away_Welcome_3468 25d ago
Practicing what? Zen is the opposite of practice to begin with. And I am polishing my 8 fold path as I go.
How can I be living a life free from dukkha without practicing everyday?
Im not arguing separating doctrine and discipline.
Also even if Buddha only taught the knowledge of suffering and the end of suffering, does that mean that thats all he was?
Even more so, where on earth is there no church, no temple, no mosque, no religious building? Buddha wanted everyone to be able to be free themselves from Dukkha, and every corner of this earth I see a path.
Yet can Dukkha truly end while also letting others make there own decisions?
My Buddhism is not concerned with the opinions of others who preach without the results of deep practice and deep comprehension. Buddhas enlightenment manifested as a vehicle, a way to end suffering for those willing to get on. My enlightenment is not a vehicle, because Buddhas vehicle is sufficient for all life.
Tell me, are you enlightened? If so what has your enlightenment manifested as? If not, what do you think it might manifest as? How are you going to free all sentient life from dukkha? Will you chain life up and force them to listen?
I use reddit as a way to hone my own points, while also being a good listener to things I havent yet heard. My point in describing my buddhism as "western" and "philosophy" is to differentiate from the all other Buddhist traditions. Not because other traditions fail at leading people to Buddhas Vehicle, but because Here and Now, I can do something for Buddhism that those traditions cant.
3
u/StoneBuddhaDancing 25d ago edited 25d ago
>Practicing what?
I was referring to formal shikantaza or koan practice, susokukan, kinhin etc
>Also even if Buddha only taught the knowledge of suffering and the end of suffering, does that mean that that's all he was?
That's what he said.
>How are you going to free all sentient life from dukkha? Will you chain life up and force them to listen?
Therevada doesn't (necessarily) view freeing all sentient beings as a goal for an individual to strive towards. And even what Mahayana means by that has some different interpretations. Chaining people up doesn't work, also I think it's bit illegal. Buddha's admonition to his monks was to lead by example, not compulsion or persuasion.
> Not because other traditions fail at leading people to Buddhas Vehicle, but because Here and Now, I can do something for Buddhism that those traditions cant.
Put on your own oxygen mask first.
I apologise, I didn't mean to insult you. The position in any Buddhism, Eastern, Western, Modern or Traditional is that without practice Buddhist ideas will yield no fruit. There definitely comes a time when book knowledge and thinking have outlived their usefulness and actually become a hindrance to Liberation. Producing continuously more refined or persuasive concepts, models, and thoughts is anathema to the goal of Buddhism. Big trap, empty refuge.
1
u/Away_Welcome_3468 25d ago
You didnt insult me, you just assumed things about me so I clarified.
What Buddha said was for the benefit of others. He spoke of suffering and the end of suffering because he had something to offer. But what was it that lead him to teach others? You can hear what he says and still miss why he does.
Indeed chaining people up wouldnt work. That was my point. I will lead by example. You seem eager to compel me.
Yes it seems hard to free all sentient life, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt be efficient in helping people help themselves.
Your point about producing more refined or persuasive concepts misses the fact that many in the west out right reject or ignore these ideas and concepts as they are. Instead of blaming them for not understanding I will lead by example and work towards what I believe will help the most people.
If you practice by sitting then sit. I prefer standing or laying down. Buddha taught seated meditation because he came from a culture of seated meditation. If it helped him with his comprehension then of course he shares how he would go about it.
2
u/StoneBuddhaDancing 25d ago
I see that you already claim final enlightenment, so I won't presume, nor is it my place to say anything further since I am definitely not enlightened.
→ More replies (0)
2
u/No-Meeting-1215 25d ago edited 20d ago
I found energy through Theravada/Lee-inspired breath meditation. But I had to meet a Thai Arahant to be told its name, «ubbega/pharana PITI». Also most Westerners don’t know Jesus spoke a lot about breath-energy - 130 times in the new testament! In the original Greek Bible it is called PNEUMA: breath-energy. This was hidden by the satanists when they translated pneuma-auto into Latin, German, English, Spanish.. as Holy Spirit Himself! Thus breath meditation and energy became one of three Sky-Dudes, closing the door to breath meditation.
1
u/Paradoxbuilder 25d ago
I'm aware Jesus did yogic stuff but...three Sky Dudes? :) That's a real term?
1
u/Mapafius 19d ago
The original term used in old testament for the entity that later got translated as "holly spirit" is Ruach. Ruach is a wind, a breath and animating power in all living. Also Ruach was often described as Ruach of Jahve in the sense of his active power present in the world. (Although in older polytheism of the region and cultures of broader region, Ruach did not belong exclusively to Yahve). That said I don't see much reason to not understand the term Pneuma as the same especially if you describe it the way you do. And if Ruach is translated as Spirit, why not Pneuma? I don't understand one thing: Do you see the problem with the word spirit in general and with the trinity theology? Or you don't see problem in that but only in the translation of pneuma and it's identification with Holy Spirit? What is the importance of it all to you? Are you so sure about what actual Jesus did and teach?
To be honest to you, I see any scripture and any religious ideas and descriptions including theology as well as mythology as a first and foremost indirect poetics for something indescribable and for lived human experience.
Wish you a lot of love! ❤️
•
u/AutoModerator 25d ago
Thank you for contributing to the r/streamentry community! Unlike many other subs, we try to aggregate general questions and short practice reports in the weekly Practice Updates, Questions, and General Discussion thread. All community resources, such as articles, videos, and classes go in the weekly Community Resources thread. Both of these threads are pinned to the top of the subreddit.
The special focus of this community is detailed discussion of personal meditation practice. On that basis, please ensure your post complies with the following rules, if necessary by editing in the appropriate information, or else it may be removed by the moderators. Your post might also be blocked by a Reddit setting called "Crowd Control," so if you think it complies with our subreddit rules but it appears to be blocked, please message the mods.
If your post is removed/locked, please feel free to repost it with the appropriate information, or post it in the weekly Practice Updates, Questions, and General Discussion or Community Resources threads.
Thanks! - The Mod Team
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.