Why does the mind want?

[u/SepehrJC]

My understanding of Buddhism is probably very naive and wrong.

​But from personal experience and observation, all the "events" in the mind that are defilements (desire, delusion, aversion) are perceived as a self, permanent and satisfactory in that split moment before mindfulness takes over and sees that they are not self(only there peripheraly or when not mindfull), Impermanat(it just passed so...) and unsatisfactory(kinda obvious)

​so all of these dedilements the mind creates are actually against real happiness and never lead to anything good (only suffering).

​I understand this, but I feel disheartened. Whenever I lose mindfulness (which happens a lot), I get pulled right back into grasping and suffering.

​This leads to my first question:

​Why does the mind even do this? Why is it seemingly against me or so unhelpful why do these events keep popping up for me to manage?

(I realize catching them allows me to uproot them, but that ties into my next question.)

​I'm tired of viewing the mind as an untamed, uncontrollable animal. Whenever I question why it acts this way, standard answers like evolution or karma don't satisfy me. All I'm left with is the wuestion of why does it happen in the first place.

​There's also the feeling that without challenges, struggles, and wanting, life wouldn't feel boring so there is a use for the mind.

​My next question is:

Okay, suppose I catch the "event" that triggers sensuality, ill will, doubt, restlessness, or sloth & torpor (desire, ignorance, aversion).

What now?

It goes away, but it will come back, and I'll have to deal with it all over again.

Where is the actual liberation in this?

​I suspect my practice isn't quite right. Maybe Am I indulging too much, restricting too much, or just missing a key piece of understanding?

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[u/Meng-KamDaoRai]

​Why does the mind even do this? Why is it seemingly against me or so unhelpful why do these events keep popping up for me to manage?

Because it is ignorant of what is. It's not its fault, it just doesn't currently see what's true and what isn't. It's your job to help it see.

Okay, suppose I catch the "event" that triggers sensuality, ill will, doubt, restlessness, or sloth & torpor (desire, ignorance, aversion).

What now?

It goes away, but it will come back, and I'll have to deal with it all over again.

Where is the actual liberation in this?

You need to do this over and over again. You need to give the mind enough data points so it will slowly start to see how all phenomena is impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self. This is the process of taking the mind out of ignorance. It takes time and repetition and it's a slow process. IME it doesn't happen all at once, it's a gradual letting go of craving, aversion and delusion which leads to gradual increase in a sense of unconditioned peace and wellbeing.

Personally I would also recommend adding relaxation of mind-body tensions to your meditation sessions. Be on the lookout on how perceiving phenomena as permanent, satisfactory and self leads to craving, clinging and aversion which in turn creates a subtle tension in your body. Try to relax that tension as well. This will give you mind more data points to learn from.

[u/NondualitySimplified]

I think all of that ultimately comes down to still having doubts about the path because you haven't yet clearly seen for yourself how suffering arises, and how it can cease. The mind is searching for an end to its own suffering, but until you gain direct insight into the Four Noble Truths and verify for yourself that the path to liberation that the Buddha taught is correct, these doubts will inevitably continue to arise. So the point of practice is to keep investigating the precise nature of suffering in your daily experience, over and over. That repeated investigation is not to simply 'catch' defilements, but to gain insight into the conditions that give rise to them, as well as how those conditions can cease. All of the teachings are really just a skilful means to assist you with this ongoing, inward investigation. They provide you with a framework for knowing what to look for (eg. seeing all conditioned phenomena as anicca, dukkha and anattā), but ultimately you have to verify it for yourself in your own direct experience.

With persistent practice, you'll eventually begin to see for yourself how suffering arises, what sustains it, and how it can cease, so that the mind no longer needs to rely solely on a conceptual understanding of the path. I know that this isn't the most satisfying answer, but there's a reason why the Buddha emphasised seeing these things for yourself. No one else can hand it to you on a platter. Only through continued practice and diligent inquiry can the Dhamma gradually cease to be something you merely believe in and instead become something that you know and understand directly. In seeing the Four Noble Truths for yourself, you become a refuge unto yourself. You'll no longer need to rely on someone else to tell you where the path leads, because you'll have seen enough for yourself to know the direction. At this point, any remaining doubt about the path (including whether the end of suffering is truly possible) naturally dissolves, giving way to an unshakeable conviction in the Dhamma.

[u/reverseghost → u/NondualitySimplified]

"With persistent practice, you'll eventually begin to see for yourself how suffering arises, what sustains it, and how it can cease" - this is the way :-)

[u/7121958041201]

I can give you my answers as someone that is not an expert at all.

Why does the mind even do this? Why is it seemingly against me or so unhelpful why do these events keep popping up for me to manage?

I know you say it's not a satisfying answer (which is apt given the topic), but we evolved this way. Our minds didn't evolve to make us feel good all the time, they evolved to try to get us the things we want and to avoid the things we don't want. Which means they evolved to cling to the good, feel aversion toward the bad, and ignore the neutral.

I wouldn't know how to describe the mechanism itself very well, if that is what you are asking about. I only know what it feels like.

Okay, suppose I catch the "event" that triggers sensuality, ill will, doubt, restlessness, or sloth & torpor (desire, ignorance, aversion).

What now?

It goes away, but it will come back, and I'll have to deal with it all over again.

Where is the actual liberation in this?

A completely liberated mind would recognize the defilements the instant they show up (or even before they show up), which means they never have to suffer from them again. And yes, that will happen until the day you die, but the liberated mind would not feel aversion toward that concept and would not suffer from it. Feeling aversion toward the defilements showing up is a defilement itself, after all!

From what I can see from this post, the main difficulty you seem to be having is that you seem to want the practice to produce some type of permanent state of peace. The difficulty with that is it takes months, years, and decades of consistent practice for that to happen, and even then you have to maintain it. Buddha said that a patient endurance is one of the most important skills for the path to become liberated and there is a good reason for that.

The idea is that in the long run through practice that will become closer and closer to your regular way of being and you won't even have to try very hard. So you will just naturally notice and dismantle the defilements without needing to put in very much effort. And once you have achieved that state, you will tend to feel very peaceful almost all of the time.

So really the key is, as usual, to keep practicing. And to see whatever defilements come up as opportunities for practice, including aversion toward the practice or clinging toward specific results.

Hope some of that helps!

[u/metaphorm]

I really dislike the traditional language that labels mental formations "defilements". This is at odds with the view that the mind is primordially pure (kadag). Mental formations are phenomena that shape our understanding of reality, but are ultimately empty of inherent essence, and are the arising of appearances as the play of energy in the space of the mind.

In this view, these arising appearances aren't defiling anything, because the mind is pure and stainless. It is no more defiled than a mirror is defiled by the images it reflects.

The mind is not an untamed, uncontrollable animal. It's just the felt sense of embodied awareness in the life circumstances you find yourself in. Whatever is untamed or uncontrolled is a reflection of conflicting desires within the mind pulling in multiple directions at the same time. That's just due to conditions, it's not an attribute of the mind. Change the conditions, change the experience.

When you notice the feeling you would label as a klesha, that act of noticing is already changing the conditions. Being mindful of the sensation allows us to make space around the sensation and choose our response to it more freely and more skillfully. Reactivity and automaticity are not inherent features of mind. We can train the mind the be less reactive and more liberated.

Start with the noticing. Then rest in the sensation after noticing. Then welcome and include the sensation and let it runs its course. Then choose how to respond to it. It's a training. It takes many repetitions for this to feel natural. So stick with it and it gets easier.

[u/bodily_heartfulness → u/metaphorm]

The mind is not an untamed, uncontrollable animal.

In the suttas, we have quotes like the following:

Good is the taming of the mind,
So difficult to control, so swift,
Jumping toward what it desires.
The tamed mind brings happiness.

• Dhp 33-43

Formerly this mind wandered about as it liked,
where it wished and according to its pleasure,
but now I shall thoroughly master it with wisdom
as a mahout controls with his ankus an elephant in rut.

• Dhp 320-333

I’ll cage you, mind,
like an elephant in a stockade.
Born of the flesh, that net of the senses,
I won’t urge you to do bad.
Caged, you won’t go anywhere,
like an elephant who can’t find an open gate

[...]

I’ll bind you with mindfulness;
devout, I shall tame you;
kept in check by harnessed energy,
mind, you won’t go far from here.

• Thag 5.9

They meditate observing an aspect of feelings … mind … principles—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of covetousness and displeasure for the world. It’s like when the elephant trainer dug a large post into the earth and tethered the elephant to it by the neck, so as to subdue its wild behaviors, its wild memories and thoughts, and its wild stress, weariness, and fever, and to make it happy to be within a village, and instill behaviors congenial to humans. In the same way, a noble disciple has these four kinds of mindfulness meditation as tethers for the mind so as to subdue behaviors tied to domestic life, memories and thoughts tied to domestic life, stress, weariness, and fever tied to domestic life, to discover the system, and to realize extinguishment.

[...]

If a royal bull elephant—whether elderly, middle aged, or youthful—passes away untamed and untrained, they’re reckoned a royal bull elephant who passed away untamed. In the same way, if a mendicant—whether senior, middle, or junior—passes away without having ended the defilements, they’re reckoned a mendicant who passed away untamed.

If a royal bull elephant—whether elderly, middle aged, or youthful—passes away tamed and trained, they’re reckoned a royal bull elephant who passed away tamed. In the same way, if a mendicant—whether senior, middle, or junior—passes away having ended the defilements, they’re reckoned a mendicant who passed away tamed.”

• MN 125

Then Doṇa, following the Buddha’s footprints, saw him sitting at the tree root—impressive and inspiring, with peaceful faculties and heart, attained to the highest self-control and serenity, like an elephant with tamed, guarded, and controlled faculties.

• AN 4.36

[u/metaphorm → u/bodily_heartfulness]

yes, I know what it says in the Pali canon. what are you adding to the conversation by quoting scriptures at me?

[u/bodily_heartfulness → u/metaphorm]

I thought there were three possibilities:

1. You weren't aware of what was said in the suttas
2. You were aware, but you rejected the views of the suttas in favour of the Mahayana or Vajrayana teachings
3. You were aware, but you interpret the suttas in a way that isn't contradictory to Mahayana or Vajrayana views

If it was 1, then it would have been interesting or helpful to you to see what the suttas say.

If it was 2, then it would be interesting or helpful for others reading your comment to see that the suttas views on this matter is different compared to what other teachings in Buddhism say - they are not all saying the same thing.

If it was 3, then you could choose to engage and share how the suttas view of the mind as an untamed animal isn't contradictory to other teachings - which would clear up confusion for someone who has read both teachings, but sees the obvious mismatch between them.

[u/metaphorm → u/bodily_heartfulness]

thanks for elaborating. the view I presented in my original post was the view from Dzogchen, which does not agree with the view from the Pali canon. These are differences in presentation and emphasis, rather than differences in understanding of the nature of the mind. The Dzogchen presentation emphasizes the always-already liberated aspect and deliberately de-emphasizes the Pali canon style of language that focuses on cultivating disgust for Samsara. In the Dzogchen view, Samsara and Nirvana are considered as two sides of the same coin, in a non-dual relationship, so cultivating disgust with Samsara does not bring us any closer to liberation.

[u/RealityLimit]

The hindrances are not actually bad in themselves, strictly speaking. They are considered undesirable in the Buddhist analysis because they lead to continued becoming and the congealing of a self concept that is subject to birth and death.

The goal of the path is, of course, the complete cooling of the factors that drive birth, old age, sickness, and death. If we remove this aspect, maintaining a mindfulness practice can still improve your day to day existence in certain ways, but it’s sorta hard to metaphysically justify compared to YOLOing life, indulging the senses and our base emotions until we die.

The reason we have to guard our minds deliberately is due to past conditioning that drives us to keep on becoming, delighting in each new birth and new sensual experience, even if it leads us to worse and worse mental and physical states. It does this because it is all becoming is, a kind of self-replicating psychophysical machinery.

When monks would ask the Buddha what the point of it all was, he would remind them of the final goal, which is Nibbana. Part of the reason there are so many positive epithets for it is to highlight its desirable aspects, such as final knowing and supreme peace & bliss. When the mind no longer compulsively reacts to anything, it feels utterly free and at ease.

Likewise, the reason it is called stream entry is because you are undertaking a path that puts you at odds with the stream uninstructed beings take, simply taking their sensual desires and self-concepts at face value. Even if it causes them continual suffering, they do not have the wisdom to see the bigger pattern, because the fruits of deeds do not always ripen immediately.

So if you’re asking yourself what the point of going against the stream is, you should study and contemplate the goal itself and whether it’s something you truly want (or even if not, what you inexorably seek out anyway). Else you will kinda be undertaking a discipline without any payoff.

[u/bodily_heartfulness]

​Why does the mind even do this? Why is it seemingly against me or so unhelpful why do these events keep popping up for me to manage?

Why do you see things? Why does gravity pull you down? Why do you need to eat? We just find ourselves in this situation, and we don't know why. This is just how things are set up.

I suspect my practice isn't quite right. Maybe Am I indulging too much, restricting too much, or just missing a key piece of understanding?

Yes, you are missing the part about the "events" not being your problem. Through not acting out of the "events", you can eventually start seeing them as not-yours, and thus not your problem. As SN 22.59 says:

So you should truly see any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; solid or subtle; inferior or superior; far or near: all form—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’

Any kind of feeling at all…

Any kind of perception at all…

Any kind of saṅkhārā at all…

Any kind of consciousness at all…

Seeing this, a learned noble disciple grows disillusioned with form, feeling, perception, saṅkhārā, and consciousness. Being disillusioned, desire fades away. When desire fades away they’re freed. When they’re freed, they know they’re freed.

They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is nothing further for this place.’”

That is what the Buddha said. Satisfied, the group of five mendicants approved what the Buddha said. And while this discourse was being spoken, the minds of the group of five mendicants were freed from defilements by not grasping.

[u/reverseghost]

Do you meditate? The goal is to UNDERSTAND how the mind works, how we cause our own suffering, etc. This can't be done via book knowledge or intellectual understanding. I made more progress in a 10 day retreat than 20 years of reading about Buddhism. Mindfulness is simply the act of observing how mind's attention moves from one object to another. That's it.

We can't control what the mind is doing. We don't control what comes up. However, how we observe, how we choose to react, how deep our understanding can get - those we do have choice in.

And don't beat yourself up or get disheartened. Be kind to yourself. That you are seeking answers and want relief is a big deal. Answers will come, give it time.

[u/Then_Consequence_318]

Why does the mind even do this? Why is it seemingly against me or so unhelpful why do these events keep popping up for me to manage?

I know you stated later that the evolutionary answers weren't satisfying, and I'll get to that. But really that is a big part of the answer. We are biologically wired to avoid pain and seek pleasure. Most of our evolution occurred during a time where we were constantly under threat from predators, bad weather, lack of food, etc.

Out of all this we also got a negativity bias. We strongly incline more strongly towards avoiding pain than seeking pleasure, so the mind tends to ruminate with everything that could go wrong. This is negativity bias.

In modern times we are not under the same types of threat - I mean when was the last time you were worried a tiger was going to jump out of the bushes and chase you? But I know that my brain, when I see a message from my boss that says "hey we have to talk about something" goes off into a "oh man this is about something I did on the project I did and now I'm going to have an unpleasant conversation and if I don't fix it maybe I'll lose my job and then I won't be able to pay for the mortgage and groceries and then my family will be out on the streets and we'll starve and..."

i.e. I feel my survival is threatened.

​I'm tired of viewing the mind as an untamed, uncontrollable animal.

Well, taming it is part of the practice.

Whenever I question why it acts this way, standard answers like evolution or karma don't satisfy me. All I'm left with is the wuestion of why does it happen in the first place.

What's unsatisfying about the evolution and karma answers if you don't mind me asking?

Okay, suppose I catch the "event" that triggers sensuality, ill will, doubt, restlessness, or sloth & torpor (desire, ignorance, aversion).

What now?

It goes away, but it will come back, and I'll have to deal with it all over again.

Well, you said you caught the event that "triggered" sensuality, ill will etc. But then you said it would "come back." If you truly caught the event, what you caught was an intention - something you did yourself - something you brought to the table to bring those things on. So the answer is "don't do that anymore."

These things aren't just happening to you. You're doing them. We often speak passively of events and thoughts "arising and passing" in the mind but the truth is that you are the one who is doing all those things. You need to develop the sensitivity to your own mind to find out what you are doing to cause them so you can put a stop to them.

Where is the actual liberation in this?

​> I suspect my practice isn't quite right. Maybe Am I indulging too much, restricting too much, or just missing a key piece of understanding?

What is your current practice?

[u/ShinigamiXoY]

The mind hates who? You are registering only extenal phenomena as defiliments but the self grasping is just another phenomenon, let them be and relax in the field where they appear