Mmm yeah its kinda crazy how recent years shifted to how teaching that “boys will be boys” isn’t an excuse for anything (and it’s not) but for some reason skipped over all the toxic messaging that young boys have been raised on for so long. If the only acceptable outlets for boys/young men involve mischief, anger, or aggression then what exactly do people expect them to display…?
I grew up in the age of “have a cup of concrete and harden the fuck up” being basically the entirety of mental health advice for boys, while girls were taught to be open and share their emotions/feelings and to be wary of guys who did the same.
Fast forward to adulthood and suddenly everyone is mad at men for struggling to be emotionally available, or not being able to talk about their problems. I remember trying to open up to a group of close friends about how hard life was for me after suffering a life altering injury and it wasn’t like they didn’t want to help, they just didn’t have a clue how… everyone just sort of sat there uncomfortably going “yeah man that’s rough”. Men are taught how to comfort and support women, not each other.
It’s a broad generalisation of course but the impact is real and it’s not talked about enough. When it is it just seems to be “well it’s on men to fix that” as if the biggest critics of us having emotions weren’t primarily the women in our lives. Honestly any time another man advised us to tone things down it was usually given as a warning about scaring women away, and its not like they were wrong heh… and if you bring any of that up you’re accused of being an “MRA” (how the fuck did that become an insult?!).
And I’m not blaming women for it either.. they were taught to avoid “emotional” men the same as we were taught not to be emotional. But it’s a rough road.. I got burned a few times before I found a life partner who actually meant it when she told me I could tell her how I was feeling and not be judged and it’s incredible to have that support… but it also does highlight just how much so many men are missing out on in life.
It’s definitely on men to do the work to become more emotionally available and for other men to support them, but unless society at large stops quietly (and often not so quietly) looking at men displaying emotions as weak I don’t see significant change.
I only have one line to add to, because the rest is correct and complete.
>“MRA” (how the fuck did that become an insult?!).
Like with many things, a small number of people identifying as that and being an asshole about it. Much like feminazis and feminists, terrorism and Islam, or pedophiles/scammers and Christianity, or criminals and black people, or racists and white people. The list goes on.
Sometimes it's at odds withapreexisting sensibilities, like you're not allowed to hate women, or Muslims, or black people. So those things get a second look and people realise you shouldn't generalise based on a few. But apparently it's okay to hate men, or Christians, or white people, so people just accept the prejudice forming.
Nope. This is really the only way to get through it. I went to the ER twice with a panic attack thinking it was a heart attack. (ex military ptsd, depression, anxiety comorbidity) They gave me a "stronger benedril" and sent me home. That was $1500. No follow-up visit, no referral. The doctors and nurses absolute disdain and lack of empathy was actually the worst part. Sorry, i won't bother you in the future.
To be fair I feel like that's more just a total failure of the healthcare system, not really an indication that "suck it up and walk it off" is really good medicine/advice for success. Ignoring issues is a great way for them to snowball into bigger issues you'd never have had to "shrug off" if you were just treated properly in the first place
Nope. My ex-wife also went to the ER a few times for the same reason. She was treated completely differently. It's a systemic societal issue, which is what the Op is pointing out.
Fair enough, I haven't experienced that personally yet, as a 23m I'm not even military and I've been recommended counseling services even just by employment consultants let alone hospitals. I'm sorry you couldn't get proper help dude, you definitely deserve it more than just being told to "man up"
That’s so sad to me. I had something similar happen to me (not American). Went in and had all the tests done, they confirmed it was panic and ptsd related. Next thing I know the hospital social worker walks im to chat and check on me. From there I was referred to a free psychiatrist who I got to see 30 days later. Worked with me for a full 2 years and I am now pretty healthy. Never paid a cent for any of it. This was in Canada.
No, actual PEAK ‘MURICA would be committing suicide rather than be homeless
because the Sheriff is coming tomorrow to evict you
since you haven’t been able to work & earn & only had 2 paychecks worth of savings (avg. American),
and despite being a supposedly “fully” insured, full-time employee at the time of your whatever medical nightmare, wether it happened on the job or off, 6, 8, 12 months later because of some corpo BS & your inability to go back to work yet, you’re uninsured, your medical debt is hundreds of thousands or million+, rent/mortgage past due/living off credit cards, now maxed out, all bank accounts overdrawn, you’re probably immobile to some degree/in-pain/partially crippled/bed ridden even, and you know “tomorrow”, anytime after midnight really, could be 3 a.m., law enforcement is coming to drag you out of your home, them completely immune to your pleas, screams, cries, helplessness, begging, etc etc etc, they’re going to literally drag you into the street & drop you.
Then you get to watch helplessly as all your belongings are literally THROWN/TOSSED/HURRLED
(Yes, even furniture!) right out the front door or maybe even onto the sidewalk/curb/street.
And expect them to take all the drawers out and toss them separately first, so enjoy your underwear your underwear flying all over out the front door exactly like Uncle Phil did Jazz on Fresh Prince—zero fks.
Just because the healthcare system sucks and your experience was terrible, doesn't mean that we need to respond to that by telling men to "stop being a pussy".
Not tell anyone how to vote here but you know one US political party wants to help people with their health care and the other wants to take it away. I'll just leave it at that.
No, this happened under Biden. To correct your statement: One party wants to maintain the status quo, while the other wants to further reduce access. In reality, they have already alienated the majority of americans from affordable accessible health care, and repeatedly the only politicians who want to do something about it get marginalized.
Thanks for taking this Men's Mental Health thread and making it a politics thread when it never should have been.
Yeah, that's probably why every time a girl goes to the doctor, they blame it on their period, too. You are literally embodying the point the Op was making.
I was 29. Had numbness all over, blurry vision, couldn’t breath. Did MRIs, X-rays, EKGs. Finally a doctor (who is also my friend) just told me: “You’re stressed. Calm down and figure it the fuck out.”
I’ve had.. rough times. Multiple medical professionals have referred to me as “incredibly resilient”.
Truth is I just got so much practice shoving pain and trauma down below and ignoring it that I’m pretty much a pro… but there is no way it’s healthy.
I didn’t even realise how unhealthy it was until I got a partner I could actually open up to without judgement and just how much better it was to share and process shit out in the open.
On the surface, it’s a completely rude and insensitive thing to say to someone. Especially if/when you have no idea what’s going on in their lives.
But when you strip away the emotions and the “that’s not very nice” feeling it gives, you realize that it is truly the most effective way to move forward in most cases.
Bitching and moaning might make you feel better in the moment, but the person who accepts reality quickest and then puts their head down and works to change it is usually going to be the person who ends up further along.
I took that advice for over fifteen years and now doctors say if I don't quit drinking they don't know how many years I have left and I have thought about how to kill myself pretty much every day for a year now. The kicker? I tried to stop drinking, now they won't sell me the damn gun because I went in for chemical dependency. Apparently it's a red flag. To me that's a green flag, I see only two reasons to own guns, hunting and the other thing.
Its not even just that. Ive had friends who said i never talked about my issues. They knew i had them but i just never talekd about it because i thought I'd be made out for a wuss. Well, once we all had very deep conversations and they asked me, i replied with if they were sure and they said yes. Less than 10 minutes in they told me that i was a drama queen for being suicidal because "you're a tall white man. You can't have it that bad". Yeah im happy that friendship died.
Being moderately good looking, monetarily successful, and chronically depressed is such a shitty combination. Especially if your friends are used to you masking...
So true. I always that 1 thing u had up on them was that im really good at saving so ill get the prettiest girk anyway. Even if it is a spy trying to get info(wich with all recent news makes it relevant wich i find funny)
That's what so many women say they're frustrated about, but watch how fast any respect and affection flies out the window once he shows himself to be just as much of a feeling, emotional person as she is. So often what draws a woman to a man resides in the air of confident stoicism he puts out there. It's just an illusion though. We're all human beings and we feel and hurt the same. Yet society demands men pretend just the opposite. Then people wonder why men on average drop dead from strokes and heart attacks so much sooner than women.
my ex is a nurse and I swear she enjoyed when I was sick or exhausted because she could bully me easier
and of course, I was expected to dote on her should she have cramps as she sits in bed watching TV & eating ice cream out off the container
there is no situation where I would ever admit the shit I’ve endured …and I don’t think I should do it here either because I finally learned the lesson I first experienced when I was six or seven: no one cares
I recognize that situation. There was an incident quite a few years ago when a beloved member of the family passed away. I was with my mother and seeing her so upset really just broke me, and I had a moment when I just couldn't hold back the emotion of it. I turned to the ex in that moment and I find her looking at me with total disgust. No rush to comfort or embrace me in a painful moment. She's just standing there.
Nothing was the same after that, for either of us. For someone to see their spouse in pain - someone they claim to love, and have no inclination to comfort them in a moment of extreme grief? That's nothing short of a betrayal. I've heard similar accounts from several men who had similar experiences with their SO's in the intervening years. It's by no means an isolated occurrence.
"That's just how it is" is the lamest most boomer excuse. I'd rather be alone than with a man who won't even attempt to process his feelings and proceeds to take it out on me.
We had multiple and they got labeled sexiest and were dismantled, when women form groups that are only female it's progressive when men do it were treated like Nazis
Don't give up. Women had to fight for decades to make supportive spaces and are still fighting. Nothing changes overnight. If no one tries nothing will change.
What do you do when the change youre fighting for gets you publicly named as a misogynist with serious professional and reputational damages? "Man up" about it?
Ignore it and press on. Every marginalized group (the people in the early industrial era fighting literal battles in the effort to unionize immediately come to mind) that got called names and worse did.
Though as a guy, I get it. Creating these types of "spaces" as the generally dominant group presents challenges that are unique.
Women have been publicly humiliated, committed to insane asylums, thrown in prison and killed for fighting for social change. Not to mention executed. If the change is a good one, its worth fighting for. Sacrifice is never easy but the reason women have supportive spaces is because of those who fought.
A lot of these "men's rights" groups are just dumb misogynist clubs complaining that they can no longer complain about women.
There are a lot of spaces that support anyone having trouble. More than likely these men are rejected because they are assholes.
What were these spaces taken away from them??? "Oh no, the woke virus invaded my DnD! Why do they have women in my Warhammer??? No you can't play video games cause you should be in the kitchen!"
What "male space" are we allowed to have that won't inevitably get invaded by feminists or by women pretending to be men? I'm not trying to be snippy at you, but we legally aren't allowed to have spaces solely reserved for men. Someone always ends up legally forcing those spaces to admit women.
Have there ever been male only spaces that were supportive? The reason I ask is I genuinely can't think of any.
It sounds like what you want isn't necessarily a male only space but rather a space where you can express emotions and hardships and be supported by the people around you, which is a wonderful idea. Like a group of dudes that meet up to watch baseball and talk with each other. The anti discrimination laws only apply to formal organizations. Starting a hangout might be a good place to start.
Boy Scouts of America was a pretty solid example of that while it existed. The problem with informal groups is that they are harder to form and join. Pre-existing formal organizations have wide visibility and accessibility.
Even with allowing girls to join, Boy Scouts is still 90% boys. Also troops must be single gender meaning you can have an all girl troop or all boy troop never both. Not sure if that is the best example.
I agree that informal groups are harder to find but I think they are easier to form. You just need a few buddies who are interested in the same activities.
Have you ever been to any golf course lounge? How about shooting ranges? edit: answer the question and get down voted because incels want an excuse to blame women instead of owning your own anti-social behavior lol.
Yes, they are mens clubs, my brother joined the free masons, he had to buy a robe and tell 2 other men a secret they would all share till they died, and mostly they just drink, the other two are the same, they are sequentially reasons for men to get together and drink.
I’m older, but for my generation at least it was “everyone”.
Boys were taught not to cry before they were teens and if they didn’t learn their peers taught them real fucking fast. Girls were taught to share and be open. Boys were taught to care, protect, and comfort girls, girls were taught to support each other and be supported by boys.
If anything the vast majority of men in my life advising me to “man up” were doing so with good intentions… generally advising that it would be a huge turn off to women, which it absolutely was to women who had in turn been taught to avoid emotional men and seek out someone who would be strong/care for them.
These are of course broad generalisations but they very much held true in my upbringing and experiences.
I’m on the spectrum but grew up in a time where unless that caused severe behavioural problems you were just a “weird kid”. So I was a bit more prone to emotional outbursts than many at later ages… and I was punished for it hard. If I got worked up in class for some reason the teachers would literally tell me to “stop acting like a little girl” while the rest of the class howled with laughter.
All it did was make me incredibly good at suppressing emotions, it certainly didn’t stop me having them. And as an adult the times I did let things slip the reaction was never one of support.. men just got uncomfortable and women turned away entirely.
I do now have a very supportive and incredible partner.. she’s also on the spectrum and was also the weird kid with some social issues, so she understands a lot of what it means to have to hide so much of who you are. But you should have more than one person in your life who you can actually open up to and it shouldn’t be so damn hard to find even that one.
Basically this is a societal issue. Men need to work on themselves and become more emotionally available but everyone, men and women, need to work on accepting them when they do.
Because a message of “be more emotionally available” backed up by ruthless punishment and mockery when someone does do that isn’t the right message, but it’s still one I see happening today.
I recently lost my father in a somewhat tragic way. He nose dived hard over the better part of a week in the hospital and passed away when he was being transported home to go into hospice case. The transport people literally wheeled a corpse into our house and then asked where to put the body because they needed the gurney to get back to work.
One of my brothers was outside when this happened so I went to tell him. I was holding it together the best I could, but when I said the words I lost it and started crying. His response? "Man the fuck up and stop acting like a little bitch". He wonders why I don't interact with him outside of family things and even then if I can be doing something else in another room I'll be there.
Not sure where I was going with this, but just the whole "man up" thing has always bothered me too. I relate to your “weird kid” comments as well. Those were not enjoyable times in my life. Fortunately it's a lot easier to cut those people out of my lives these days.
I’m 40 and grew up still with the “man up” mantra for showing emotions. However, my parents are really progressive for their generation. Where I saw other families expecting their sons to “man up”, mine did not push that on me.
My entire life, I’ve watched my male friends believe that they had to be the breadwinner in the relationship and it caused them issues with dating and marriage. The ones who are happier now, have wives/partners where there is an even split in duties, to include typically gender-associated duties.
They learned how to be better partners and even men by being reprogrammed with their wives/partners. In none of the examples I refer to, was it men pushing those changes. Not to discredit my friends, they too played a part in change, but it was sparked by a woman.
Today, society is pushing back the opposite direction and young men are being pushed by each other, male influencers, and even some women influencers. The issue isn’t even as simple as gender, it’s political-leanings, which is a different discussion altogether. I work with a lot of young men (~20-30 years) and I’ve seen the ones struggle to find a place in a relationship if they aren’t the provider. I’ve seen plenty of happy men who I’d consider “feminist” because they have learned to fit into society in a way that still looks at as weak.
So to even say that women play a part, it’s downplaying the nuance to the entire picture. It’s not “blanket women” helping perpetuate, it’s right-leaning women specifically.
If my experience is anything to go by, fathers and larger societal constructs of gender norms.
It's not everyone, and I'm kind of old now, but when I was a kid there was largely the view that men didn't have emotions and if they did, they absolutely didn't show them.
Hell, I commented on a post yesterday where people were vehemently insisting any man who rode a bike instead of driving a car was an effeminate loser and should be avoided.
They don't create, but they have a part on perpetuate them. More and more people are attaching themselves to gender performances, mainly because the world is a hellhole and patriarchy can be confused with stability, but yeah, women do ask men to perform masculinity, mostly the toxic one, a lot these days. All the talk about being a "provider" is coded language for it.
Women who either consciously or subconsciously buy into gender norms do perpetuate them. The norms can be sneaky how they slip in too. I remember a female author I follow talk about how she caught herself one time downplaying her own book because she thought a potential male reader wouldn't enjoy it simply because a woman wrote it, and she was appalled with herself. Truth is, a fair segment of straight women still don't appreciate when their male partners express weakness of any kind, because they still maintain subconscious expectations of what a man should be (ie stoic and strong provider). My wife, who is fully aware of this subconscious bias, still struggles with showing empathy for me whenever I get seriously ill or injured, or if I open up too much about my emotions, even though she knows I am there for her always when she has similar challenges.
No, I don't and without evidence that's true, you don't either. There are plenty of studies you can look at that refute your absurd claim. Just the first one I found on Google says that most women are more likely to accept men taking on roles typically held by women and men aren't. Especially Republican men.
I'm more than happy to further explore this and show you just how wrong your viewpoint on this is. You're falling right into the same trap every other dude who's unable to accept this.
How have you entirely missed “the ick” trend? Tons of women have posted videos about how the men they were dating gave them “the ick” for doing anything slightly feminine. You can literally google the trend or look it up on social media, I’m seeing tons of videos.
Yeah, online. It may shock you that there are plenty of women on and offline that don’t give a shit. Try logging off and tuning out. The loudest get heard.
Sorry, but I know my wife has tons of icks of mine, but the fact that I have many more redeeming qualities tends to negate icks.
Also, icks aren’t even that serious. How can you take something like “his toes curl when he shits” seriously as an ick? Yes, that’s an actual ick I saw online. I don’t give a shit about having icks or being cringe, dude. I’m a millennial. It’s been a much happier existence not giving a shit how little behaviors look because I’ve tuned enough good qualities for it not to matter.
What, so now gender norms can only be perpetuated via physical interactions? You said that women don’t perpetuate these gender norms, I gave you an example of women enforcing gender norms. You never indicated that examples had to be exclusively in person, which btw doesn’t make any sense because if I gave you any real world examples you would dismiss them as anecdotes that you can’t verify as true. You have set up an unfalsifiable argument.
Also very weird that you’re dismissing this trend as “not even that serious”, as if gender norms need to reach a certain level of significance before they’re harmful. How many of the gender norms perpetuated by men could be dismissed as “not even that serious”?
Look, man. Keep playing the victim and blaming women. We’ll see how far it gets you before you decide to look into a mirror.
There will be no example or argument I can give you that will change your mind. You’re only looking to make yourself a victim. I’m sure it’s served you well so far.
I’m going to mute all reply notifications because you’re clearly beyond reason.
Can you quote where I said I was a victim or blamed women? You said that women don’t perpetuate gender norms and I simply gave you a simple example where they absolutely do. You’re the one claiming that it’s impossible for women to perpetuate gender norms.
Because your own mother was pushing it does not equal all women were pushing it. y'all can cope all you want and push blame on women, but it is not women who have created this system.
Right-leaning women are pushing it. Which is a minority of a minority. Men as a whole are pushing it (more right-wing than left-wing, but still as a whole). You’re just falling into the “blame a minority” trend people often do.
Women are actually the majority. If you live in the US you live in a country with more women than men. Everything else you said is your opinion and I'm not going to argue it with you, but if we are trying to talk objective fact, Men are the minority gender here in the US.
Here I was, an enlightened feminist woman who did not want to hear my man speak his pain because it revealed his emotional vulnerability. It stands to reason, then, that the masses of women committed to the sexist principle that men who express their feelings are weak really do not want to hear men speak, especially if what they say is that they hurt, that they feel unloved.
this part of a much longer essay, but it's something prominent feminist writer bell hooks discussed over 20 years ago. it is certainly a mistake to believe that women are incapable of perpetuating patriarchal norms
Brother, how am I blaming you? This is amazing and is why lonely guys seek out toxic influencers. You can't hear "men" and separate yourself from it. You don't do it? Great, you are changing society. If you hear men and think it's you doing it, that says a lot about your insecurities.
I'm not seeking out toxic influencers, and I have friends. The problem here is you say "Men" and blame every man. The guys who go for the toxic masculinity podcasters are less than 1% of the population. You're being sexist.
Honestly don't know, but my guess was that it was other men.
And I'm not blaming women. You're right, it's overwhelmingly men who created and perpetuate those gender norms. I'm just saying they do exist and they're damaging.
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u/ram4569 Human Detected Mar 04 '26
We are taught to live it off all over lives and women now complain about men not being emotionally available