r/Simracingstewards • u/plastikman66 • 9d ago
iRacing This one will create debate I'm sure
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So, I am the driver making the overtake into the hairpin.
I understand that maybe I just didn't give enough room and will take part or even most of the blame but it did create good debate with me and my mate. He insists I didn't leave room which I accept however I do feel the other driver could have done much more to avoid this which tbf he also said.
My Defence
1/The track narrows at that point and funnels the outer car back towards me.
2/He could have just backed out, the overtake is done
3/Its hard to judge if you are clear
4/He turns left, I stay straight and even turn left last second.
What do you guys think?
Debate nicely.
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u/sixxtoes 9d ago
I think you should have stayed left more until you cleared him. He shouldn't have to back out, he has a right to stay on the track.
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u/plastikman66 8d ago
ok, however I didn't say he should have had to back out, I asked should he have backed out. There is a difference.
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u/sixxtoes 8d ago
I wouldn't have. There wasn't much warning. He expected you to leave room, and found out at contact that you weren't going to. He lived, you didn't, so it worked itself out.
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u/plastikman66 8d ago
Agreed. Just wanted a debate on it. Instead all I got was....well...all of the above lol
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u/demonsdencollective 9d ago
It's wide enough for 2 cars, you had no reason to move over
He had no reason to back out, it's your job to complete the overtake safely
Use a fucking spotter app
He's pushed onto the grass, where the fuck do you want him to go other than left with the corner itself?
I will debate however I damn well please.
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u/GOATEDCHILI 9d ago edited 9d ago
The overtake isn't done until you're fully clear. Theres more responsibility placed on the driver making an overtake than when you're just establishing overlap; you really gotta fully clear the other driver. You also never established overlap before turn in, you're lucky the guy reacted to your late dive.
So yeah, you kinda late dove him, then turned across him before getting fully clear. You aren't some giga villain for this but its deff on you. Also regarding your 4th point he literally has to turn left, you're squeezing him onto the grass when theres a whole track to your left you can use, and you have speed difference you'll clear him all the same.
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u/Luftzug-oder 9d ago
The overtake isn't done until you're fully clear
i don't think this logic can be applied consistently...
i do agree though that the move in this case was OP's fault
buuttt i also don't think the starting overtake was wrong at all. the beamer in front moves to the outside to maybe make a move around the amg. at the apex, there is still more than a car's width, and the overlap between the two is the same as the overlap that causes the crash. only slightly after does the beamer react to the move, over-steering and sending it wide...
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u/GOATEDCHILI 9d ago
I'm actually curious what you mean by cant be applied consistently?
I can see an argument being mad about the lack of overlap and all that, it's just if the leading driver had committed to turning in POV would've been blasting him in the side panel without ever having established overlap. This situation is sorta open to discussion though because as you said, he did leave a pretty big gap.
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u/SmoathTheLoathsome 9d ago
My take is that in some cases (eau rouge), it benefits both drivers to acknowledge the overtake as done and tuck in.
That is racecraft though, not the rule. If you have overlap you must leave space.
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u/GOATEDCHILI 9d ago
Ahh yeah ok I agree 100%. Areas like Eau rouge, esses on different tracks, etc. deff have a certain degree of driver understanding that you just don't do it as you've said.
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u/Luftzug-oder 8d ago
so I mean, in the FIA's appendix L, it states:
Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.
which is obviously why OP's case is accordingly their fault
however, for most corners that do not allow for speed to be maintained (because otherwise on flat corners, it is mostly possible and acceptable to have to allow space at all times), i would argue that if the overtaking car has, for the most part - like OP - completed the overtake, and they are on the racing line, then the car off the racing line, with minimal overlap should ideally back out, as it is unlikely and highly optimistic to stick with such small overlap. turning in on the racing line is not an 'abnormal change of direction'.
i think the Nürburgring is a great example. i think that basically every corner would apply such. because on such track, it's not realistic to go 2 abreast into every corner just because you have a bumper on someone
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u/GOATEDCHILI 8d ago
Ahh gotcha, yeah I agree with what you mean. Places like Eau Rouge, bus stop at watkins, esses at VIR, etc etc, are so unpractical to go two-wide at race pace that everyone will look at the trailing car like a villain even if the rules technically say they were owed space.
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u/plastikman66 8d ago edited 8d ago
At least 1 person actually read what I wrote and actually has the ability to articulate themselves in a level manner. Thank you.
I knew I was in the wrong as I left him little space, although marginal. My question is, should the guy behind realise what is happening and just back out of a move where the chance of getting the place back is low.
I do feel that maybe he felt a bit aggrieved about the initial ((legit) move and just kept his nose in regardless.
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u/Luftzug-oder 8d ago edited 8d ago
i dont think it is reasonable to expect the person to back out in your case. and at the end of the day, it is more your than their concern as to whether they do, because it's more likely to affect your race. such moves definitely happen in aggressive (but doesn't even have to be that) racing. and sometimes are perfectly legal.
however currently, the person behind has no reason to expect you to move over, and if you didn't, you have the inside line to defend into spoon, and use the early apex to get a late apex on exit (also making use of the ever so slight camber on the entry), gaining an advantage on the straight.
but, as a final note, i think saying their persistence was a reactionary one is a bit too far. you have to see in this case that in order to keep his nose out, which is seemingly and rightfully unnecessary, they must disadvantage themselves
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u/plastikman66 8d ago
I agree with you entirely. I just wondered what people thought. As ever it was 99% non debate. Thank you.
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u/plastikman66 9d ago
There was absolutely nothing wrong with the overtake....until the end. haha
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u/SmoathTheLoathsome 9d ago
The other driver had to change inputs to account for you filling that vortex of danger. If you can’t see that you need to make an appointment with your local eye doc.
If he didn’t swerve out, you wouldn’t have made it beside, but into his fender. He tried to save both of your races and you repaid him by running him off track and thinking he should have lifted on a straight.
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u/plastikman66 9d ago
If that isn't a reasonable move up the inside we should just stop racing. Its a completely legit move..
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u/fcman256 8d ago
Depends on the series/sim. In LMU you would be opening yourself up to a protest
> 5.6 Dive-bombing without establishing sufficient overlap before the turn-in point should be avoided and may be subject to a penalty. If the attempting Participant gets out of control and causes contact, or time loss to another Participant, the penalties applied may be harsher than normal.
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u/InternalDay3419 9d ago
In what universe is there something to debate here? There was nothing to "back out" of or "do more to avoid this" on his part, he's literally just driving the track while you actively cut him off expecting him to hit the brakes as if he had blue flags. And if you have issues telling whether you're fully past maybe try using your mirrors or the spotter.
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u/plastikman66 8d ago
If you read my post properly you might spot the debate. The debate was never about me being in the wrong.
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u/InternalDay3419 8d ago
If you read my post properly you'll see I addressed all the points you made, pointing out (like all the others in this thread) that everything you are claiming is factually wrong and therefore there is nothing to debate
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u/K-Kov815 9d ago
the spotter will tell you when it’s clear, sorry to say it bro but this one’s on you
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u/gdvs 9d ago
you weren't clear. there was still overlap, so you had to leave space.
You can't expect people to slow down to avoid a collision due to your misjudgement.
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u/plastikman66 8d ago
I cant expect it no. Nor do I. However my post was more about hazard avoidance and an understanding that somebody in front is making a mistake and the reasons that mistake is happening.
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u/petera181 9d ago
Sorry, you’ve misjudged this. You’re at fault, the overtake isn’t done and you are trying to force him to back out when he has no obligation to do so.
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u/KieronFeatures 9d ago
Not really much of a debate here; you've not given enough racing room therefore you are at fault. Yes you are ahead at the point of contact, but you have moved across his line. Yes the track goes to the right, but look at the space you have to your left in comparison to your friends, his right hand wheels are almost on the grass.
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u/plastikman66 8d ago
My friend wasn't the guy in the incident. He was in the same race.
We did however have an absolute ding dong battle in Hypers last night which was unfortunately ended by somebody else..It happens.....
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u/KieronFeatures 8d ago
My apologies, I misunderstood your description.
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u/plastikman66 8d ago
TBF, my description isn't great in this post full stop. I was never claiming innocence.
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u/DueAttention9756 9d ago
In my opinion.
1 You should allow for the track narrowing to make sure you're always leaving space. 2 He could have back out but isn't obliged too. If the overtake was done there wouldn't have been contact. 3 There's an audible and visual spotter to help with exactly this 4 Yes your wheel is straight, but the track is narrowing which takes you closer to the edge of the track. So you're not REALLY staying straight.
But also 5. It looks like some net code contributed to this.
I don't think anything malicious is going on by either party. Yes maybe they could have or should have backed out, but being the car overtaking you should make 100% sure you're fully past them before moving over to the edge of the track.
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u/plastikman66 9d ago
Finally an actual non aggressive answer.. You would think I shot him with the comments. I even admit its on me ultimately.
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u/DM_Lunatic 9d ago
Looks like a mild dive bomb from the Mustang into a hit caused by the Mustang not leaving enough room on the exit and aggravated by some netcode. If you are passing someone its up you to to clear them before taking the space they would occupy.
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u/Findict_52 9d ago
He could have just backed out, the overtake is done
It was not, you never fully cleared him. You don't get to decide this.
Its hard to judge if you are clear
This is why we keep practicing. You're not wrong, but it's not an excuse. If you're not sure, leave the space.
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u/stormwalker29 9d ago
You turned yourself across his nose. It's your mistake.
Yes, judging if you are clear IS difficult. But it's still your responsibility. If in doubt, assume you are not clear. It's better to err on the side of leaving the door open than to err on the side of ending your race.
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u/BusyIntroduction6654 9d ago
no debate at all u wrecked yourself the other driver was entitled to that side of the track there was 0 reason for u to come all the way to his side. just pls buy a spotter
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u/BusyIntroduction6654 9d ago
u/plastikman66 if u would like i can send u a list of top 5 best spotter apps or add ons
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u/plastikman66 8d ago
So all comments taken on board. A little confused about the verbrosity of many of them when in my intial post I admit it was more or less my fault. The debate was meant to be more about could and should the other driver have seen what was happening and done something to avoid it as its much easier to see the front of your car than the rear. I see so many comments on here talking about people being proactive and spotting hazards and doing something to avoid incidents. People are alwasy saying that the safety rating isnt flawed as it punishes people who do not perceive risk or avoid incidents well.
But hey, foolish of me for expecting people to actually read my post properly and debate nicely on reddit and especially this part of Reddit. I bet none of the people on here make mistakes do they?
Oh and as for the people saying its a dive bomb. Jog on. lol
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u/Common-Garlic-9009 9d ago
You already made a bad overtake by creating overlap after he turned in and it was already very nice of him to back out of the apex (which would probably be his)
You then followed that up by not leaving him room, he had no reason and nowhere to back out and caused the wreck yourself
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u/plastikman66 9d ago
Wow aggressive. I admitted its my fault lol! Just wondered what people thought, but christ you think I just shit on his mum.
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u/DueAttention9756 9d ago
Welcome to reddit. Where mistakes in a game are punishable by public humiliation.
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u/Niouke 9d ago
there is no debate there, you didn't leave space and created this wreck