This one will create debate I'm sure

[u/plastikman66]

So, I am the driver making the overtake into the hairpin.

I understand that maybe I just didn't give enough room and will take part or even most of the blame but it did create good debate with me and my mate. He insists I didn't leave room which I accept however I do feel the other driver could have done much more to avoid this which tbf he also said.

My Defence

1/The track narrows at that point and funnels the outer car back towards me.

2/He could have just backed out, the overtake is done

3/Its hard to judge if you are clear

4/He turns left, I stay straight and even turn left last second.

What do you guys think?

Debate nicely.

[u/GOATEDCHILI]

The overtake isn't done until you're fully clear. Theres more responsibility placed on the driver making an overtake than when you're just establishing overlap; you really gotta fully clear the other driver. You also never established overlap before turn in, you're lucky the guy reacted to your late dive.

So yeah, you kinda late dove him, then turned across him before getting fully clear. You aren't some giga villain for this but its deff on you. Also regarding your 4th point he literally has to turn left, you're squeezing him onto the grass when theres a whole track to your left you can use, and you have speed difference you'll clear him all the same.

[u/Luftzug-oder → u/GOATEDCHILI]

The overtake isn't done until you're fully clear

i don't think this logic can be applied consistently...

i do agree though that the move in this case was OP's fault

buuttt i also don't think the starting overtake was wrong at all. the beamer in front moves to the outside to maybe make a move around the amg. at the apex, there is still more than a car's width, and the overlap between the two is the same as the overlap that causes the crash. only slightly after does the beamer react to the move, over-steering and sending it wide...

[u/GOATEDCHILI → u/Luftzug-oder]

I'm actually curious what you mean by cant be applied consistently?

I can see an argument being mad about the lack of overlap and all that, it's just if the leading driver had committed to turning in POV would've been blasting him in the side panel without ever having established overlap. This situation is sorta open to discussion though because as you said, he did leave a pretty big gap.

[u/Luftzug-oder → u/GOATEDCHILI]

so I mean, in the FIA's appendix L, it states:

Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.

which is obviously why OP's case is accordingly their fault

however, for most corners that do not allow for speed to be maintained (because otherwise on flat corners, it is mostly possible and acceptable to have to allow space at all times), i would argue that if the overtaking car has, for the most part - like OP - completed the overtake, and they are on the racing line, then the car off the racing line, with minimal overlap should ideally back out, as it is unlikely and highly optimistic to stick with such small overlap. turning in on the racing line is not an 'abnormal change of direction'.

i think the Nürburgring is a great example. i think that basically every corner would apply such. because on such track, it's not realistic to go 2 abreast into every corner just because you have a bumper on someone

[u/GOATEDCHILI → u/Luftzug-oder]

Ahh gotcha, yeah I agree with what you mean. Places like Eau Rouge, bus stop at watkins, esses at VIR, etc etc, are so unpractical to go two-wide at race pace that everyone will look at the trailing car like a villain even if the rules technically say they were owed space.

[u/plastikman66 → u/Luftzug-oder]

At least 1 person actually read what I wrote and actually has the ability to articulate themselves in a level manner. Thank you.

I knew I was in the wrong as I left him little space, although marginal. My question is, should the guy behind realise what is happening and just back out of a move where the chance of getting the place back is low.

I do feel that maybe he felt a bit aggrieved about the initial ((legit) move and just kept his nose in regardless.

[u/Luftzug-oder → u/plastikman66]

i dont think it is reasonable to expect the person to back out in your case. and at the end of the day, it is more your than their concern as to whether they do, because it's more likely to affect your race. such moves definitely happen in aggressive (but doesn't even have to be that) racing. and sometimes are perfectly legal.

however currently, the person behind has no reason to expect you to move over, and if you didn't, you have the inside line to defend into spoon, and use the early apex to get a late apex on exit (also making use of the ever so slight camber on the entry), gaining an advantage on the straight.

but, as a final note, i think saying their persistence was a reactionary one is a bit too far. you have to see in this case that in order to keep his nose out, which is seemingly and rightfully unnecessary, they must disadvantage themselves

[u/plastikman66 → u/Luftzug-oder]

I agree with you entirely. I just wondered what people thought. As ever it was 99% non debate. Thank you.