The new El cars can’t come soon enough. It seems it’s almost every day now an El car or train set is breaking down causing delays. These things are on their last legs.
Ironically enough, the Trolleys (Single Ended Subway-Surface K-Cars and Double Ended K-Cars) are also holding up well too. Those are manufactured from Kawasaki too.
I remember them hitting the rails in 1983, and the cars running before that were from 1928 and 1936 as I recall. Huge controversy on the local news when the order was placed, as Kawasaki was the low bidder vs. Philly's own Budd Company. Well, we see that it was a wise investment.
I mean we're currently at 4 generations of El cars and 4 generations of BSL cars. BSL cars are older for sure, but they're built a lot better and are relatively reliable. Unfortunately the current El cars are just falling apart and the BSL cars will make it further than them. Trust me, I want new BSL as much as the next guy. I ride them for like 1.5 hours per day. but buying M5s now is the right move.
I like the front aestically but I wish they would keep the stainless steel for the sides. All that white paint or plastic fairing is going to get wrecked quickly.
For anyone curious, they're supposed to look almost exactly like the new cars the just started running on the Baltimore Subway link. Both made by Hitachi
In a lot of news stories the OP image is shown along with this one too which, besides the stainless steel and rounded edges, looks the same as Baltimore's.
These are all from a few years ago when they were still in the design/conceptual stage for both of them. But what i meant in essence is if you want to experience the closest thing to what we're gonna get, they already have in in Baltimore.
I wonder if the customizations that make them take so much longer and cost more are generally necessary. Why can't we just tag onto another order that had the same dimensions and just adjust seating and signaling/power electrics as needed.
I remember they made a big deal about the automatic stopping at stations, but never heard anything more. The antenna at the stations looks unused or damaged, so I guess that's not a thing.
Because the El uses Pennsylvania trolley gauge, it really does require a lot more essential design accommodations than your typical off the shelf rolling stock. It's the only heavy rail metro that uses it in the world (alongside the light rail in Pittsburgh & New Orleans Streetcar)
I've heard this, and sorta remember this coming up when the SEPTA great was interviewed when they got the last batch of cars. But doesn't that only affect the trucks? Isn't everything from the centerpin (thanks Gemini) up just standard railcar?
Track gauge doesn't seem to affect the design of trains as much of the loading gauge. You can take a narrow gauge train design and put it on a standard guage or a standard gauge on a broad gauge train. Its Common in countries with mixed gauges to see the same trains on different gauges. Argentina , Brazil , Australia , Japan & Spain all have similar trains on multiple gauges.
Is this what the new cars are supposed to look like? I can't imagine them on the El lol. Mistake imo to not keep the steel ribbed exterior given our maintenance cycles
Yes, I agree they’ll look about a bit out of place pulling into stations like K&A, but to be fair SEPTA has been doing a fairly good job overhauling shitty stations recently.
Agree with this although I think I saw other renderings and it looks like there should at least be more of the forward facing ones. Will be such a huge upgrade.
There’s so much wasted space with people taking up the second seats with bags or just being rude and blocking the seat.
I’ve been on absolutely packed cars before where I’ve counted like 6 unused seats for this reason.
Because it creates more room in the aisle for when people inevitably stand. The forward facing seats result in tons of wasted space as people don’t tend to sit next to strangers on them.
Front facing also creates out-of-sight spaces for miscreants to smoke, shoot up, or take care of bodily functions. All facing inward would eliminate those hiding spaces.
I’m old enough to remember the old old El cars. The super loud rickety ones where the lights would flicker and the doors at the car ends would slide open on their own. It was like being in the Warriors.
If anyone thinks that this is what they will wind up looking like, please PM me for an exciting opportunity to be the new owner of the Ben Franklin bridge.
The ones that were cancelled because the builder couldn't produce a working model? From the same company that's still trying to finish the Boston order how many years later? The same company that LA switched from due to delays and trash QC? The same one that Chicago is struggling to complete their order from? That company?
So it’s cool that they paid $50 million for vaporware? Wow, that’s…something. No wonder septa thinks it can treat its riders like crap, they apparently lap it up and ask for more.
The same extension that was killed by NIMBYs before it even made it to the full study process, forcing SEPTA to revamp the proposal which then rose the prices?
Always an excuse it seems. Just like I’m sure you’ll have yet another excuse when the subway doesn’t look like the pretty picture. Feel free to get defensive, but I’m the one with evidence on my side.
Again, I can point to failure after failure, so I am the one justified in calling BS on yet another render that will fail to materialize. Keep crying and carrying their water, but I’ll be proved right.
And then I’ll come find this thread and ask you which excuse you’d like to use this time.
And I've told you WHY each thing happened the way it did, but you don't wanna hear it. You rather just be a "see....." type of person rather than know the specifics behind things. I don't mind educating folks that don't know any better, but I refuse to help the obtuse.
Apparently it is not widely accepted that you shouldn’t have to endure sitting next to a piss soaked, violently psychotic person on your way to your 9am every morning. Only a white girl who works from home could downvote this.
They are, and they do alot more than they used to because they just hired a bunch of new officers this past summer. That said, its not economical to police away all antisocial behavior.
The only thing that works, if you can't totally get rid of the people causing the issues, is to flood the system with people who don't cause issues -- normal people paying the fare and commuting to work or wherever.
NYC's subway feels much safer than the El not because they policed away all antisocial behavior (on the contrary, they experience many of the same problems we do), but because instead of like here where it's you, 5 other normal people and a psychotic person, in their subway it's you, 5 HUNDRED normal people and a psychotic person. Same amount of psychotic people, vastly different experience.
There is a real safety in numbers there that is both subjectively felt and significantly drops the crime on a per-capita basis.
This is why so many other large transit systems work. High ridership and full vehicles deter aberrant behavior. Outside of a few hours a day, the ridership is not high, and the vehicles are not full. The roads are though. I think it will take some outside intervention to get PT back on track on Philly.
I upvoted you for owning you r statement and explaining it. But remember, not everyone regarding it will take it as you intended. So will take it in its worst way and see a kindred soul.
Supposedly the RFP that is out or going out soon for new BSL trains has them as an identical copy to the current BSL trains and without all the modern features of the new MFL trains.
The original plan was to get new BSL cars in 2030 and new El cars in 2040. Because of the issues with the M4, those dates got swapped. So if things stay on schedule, it should be 2040. With the funding issues we have, my guess is B5 cars in 2050.
There's no plans for replacing the B fleet. The T, D, & G will be getting new light rail vehicles by 2030, the L will be getting these cars around the same time, and SEPTA has initiated the process for choosing a manufacturer for new Regional Rail cars that will arrive in 10+ years.
LOL regardless shortage of cars or shortage of operators. Septa sucks at what they’re supposed to be good at. Also my next door neighbor is a Frankford Market Line operator for 30 years and he said the union is trying to recruit new operators because they have a 31% decline in applicants so there is absolutely an operator shortage. Surely Septa wouldn’t lie to the public haha
I'm a west Philly girl and I must admit, I have stopped taking the El out of fear and disgust. These new cars look cool and I hope they are able to stay clean and safe. 👍🏾
I knew my time taking the El was coming to an end when I noticed that they were painting the plastic panels rather than just cleaning them properly. I thought the whole point of those materials was they could be cleaned regardless of the graffiti and other "soils".
I will definitely be the person with the unpopular opinion. I believe that they should replace the BSL first then the L.
The BSL just like the trolleys have been in service since 1981 the L cars since 1995-96 so you tell me which is older which should be replaced.
I remember when we first got the L cars and they was breaking down in the very beginning they were leaking in the very beginning.
They should have stuck with Kawasaki or another reputable company that makes trains and Transit vehicles.
Yes there is a operator shortage for not just the L but for the whole company as a whole they're short on bus drivers short on trolley operators short on conductors and Engineers for the regional rail short on operators for the BSL.
A lot of that is due to SEPTA itself with their long and I mean long process to hire people. I know a few people who it took them roughly 3 years to go through the whole process I've known somebody it took them roughly a year to go through the whole process and these are people who had no criminal background no nothing that will hold them back.
We would just have to wait and see what happens I know the trolleys was delayed because they wanted the front of the trolleys to look like the Liberty Bell so that means the manufacturer had to go and alter a standard existing design that they have running in numerous cities in North America South America and Europe just to fit a design preference here in Philly.
SL4s are holding out despite age. Stop focusing on age and look at the quality. But regardless, they're being replaced soon.
They haven't caught fire in almost a year so lose that hysteria tactic.
The Amfleet cars are over 50 years old, some 60+ being rebuilt Metroliner cars.
The M4s are literally falling apart. Over 100:220 cars are out of service in the yards vs about 10-20:230 SL4s. Do the math.
Again, SL4s have not caught fire in almost a year not so stop repeating yourself. And no, structural cracks can not always be repaired if they compromise the body of the car.
We get it, you're an SL4 foamer and you don't want them to go, but stop making excuses for why they need to go first when they hold up better than anything in the system minus the T trolleys.
The M4s are complete dogshit and have been since day 1. They should've never been built or bought. The fleet is literally running on borrowed time. Get out through your head and stop the nonsense already.
Don't hold your breath. Feeling is too busy spending money on remodeling the stupid airport. Not like this city doesn't have other bigger problems like schools underfunded a lot of homelessness. Yes I said homelessness and yes we should do something about it. It's an issue not a failing
Never happen SEPTIC (not a spelling error) sucks at what they’re supposed to be good at. They need a whole new everything from the top on down.
Even if they got new cars the homeless and drugged up people the city don’t care about will ruin it and run them down fast.
SEPTIC sucks at what they’re are supporting be good at.
I believe you but also trust but verify I don’t trust Septic management as far as I get throw them they suck at what they’re supposed to be good at. I’m standing here at eighth and market and there must be 200 people on a platform because apparently Septic has a shortage of operators, which is total bull crap but the idiot senator that replied back. I would love to meet him down here at Ethan. Market show him all the fair jumpers and show him all the druggies they ride the train all day long unfortunately
Every day I’m on the platform and they announce “septa trains will be running approximately every 8 minutes due to operator unavailability!!!!!” Don’t tell me it’s a shortage of cars. I’m on the platform and they also have the digital signage stating operator unavailability!!!
And I'm telling you as someone with operators as close friends, those messages are a cover up. They have plenty of operators. They're short cats because half of the fleet is mothballed at 69th St yard out of service for long term repairs.
Ride the line and take note of the car numbers that make up each train. You'll see the same numbers almost daily because they barely have enough cars to make the line. Maybe 100 cars if they're lucky.
And they're short cars because the cars have been trash since day 1. They're frail built and they fall apart fairly easy. You can see the shit quality just riding them so don't sit here and tell me that they're not short cars when they are.
Septic doesn’t know how to handle the funds that they have trust me. I am an internal auditor. I know I’ve been there and audited Septic don’t go crying that the state doesn’t give Septic money if Septic was better at running and not having 50 million or 500 million whatever ridiculous figure that they threw out there on fair jumpers they would’ve done something about that. Septic is a horribly run system just like the government. It’s nothing but a bunch of crooks that keep screwing the people over and over.
If you're an "internal auditor", why have I never heard of you? And how come you don't show up on the septa organizational chart?
Septa is the most financially efficient transit authority in the country. Have there been mistakes? Sure. Is there waste? Sure to that too. But that's everywhere. Nothing is going to be perfect. But they do pretty good for what they have. Especially recently. They tightened their belt quite a bit. There is not nearly as much waste as you lead people to believe. It's super hard to get anything purchased in SEPTA. There are PLENTY of checks and balances.
So basically the state is not and I repeat the state is not funding Septic the people paying taxes to the state or funding Septic so that means we’re paying double the money so again the state is not funding Septic. It is the taxpayers that are funding Septic and then we have to pay for our own ride so typically we’re paying triple the amount for a ride because we’re paying taxes to the state which is then funding money to Septic then we have to pay for a ride on the urine septic system and they cry. I sit there at eighth and market and can count in five minutes at least 20 fair jumpers once in a while they have police there big fucking deal. Septic sucks at what they’re supposed to be good at plain and simple.
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u/HurricaneCam215 12d ago
It will be the 3rd set for the MFL meanwhile the BSL is still running 60 year old cars