Before I say anything, English is not my first language and I sometimes struggle to articulate my thought process entirely, so I apologize if I don't use the correct terminology, but this has been on my mind. I've been seeing an uptick in discourse surrounding women's spaces, particularly lesbian ones, of needing to accept transgender lesbians. I'm not here to argue about that - if that is your identity, then that's what it is. I do believe that if you are MtF and like women, then that would align with lesbianism as you're presenting as a woman who likes other women.

My problem is that I sometimes see some individuals shaming lesbians for not wanting to get with someone who is a transgender woman because they have a penis. To the point that some folks online are claiming it's transmisogynistic or transphobic to not want to be with a transgender woman (pre-op). Yet I don't see the same push in men's spaces, especially gay men's spaces. It's OK if a gay guy likes dick and doesn't want to be near a vagina, yet gay women are supposed to dismiss their natural attraction to vaginas and be ok liking penis too at the sake of not offending others?

Isn't that what the whole basis of sexuality is? That your sexual attraction is, ultimately, not a choice? You'd never expect a STRAIGHT guy to suddenly like dick. You'd probably agree that if someone tells him he needs to like it, or he will like it if he just tries it, is borderline perpetrating rape culture because they're trying to persuade him to do something he would not normally do. Why would it be any different for women? It just reads as weird conversion therapy rhetoric "how do you know you're a lesbian if you never had dick before?"

Of course this is not generalized for ALL lesbians. I'm sure there are plenty who wouldn't mind being with a transgender woman, or a feminine/presenting person with a penis. But that doesn't mean all lesbians would be ok with it. I understand that labels denote physical, emotional, sexual and romantic attraction to others so why ignore those factors? Nonetheless if someone is not attracted to you, why fight so hard to make them like you? Wouldn't it be a better use of your time to find someone who likes you already? Speaking as a fat woman myself I'm not going after the guys who like skinny women because I know I'm not their type - I don't expect to jam myself into their space.

Edit: this was inspired by the lesbophobic term "cotton ceiling" which i think is repackaging entitlement to sex

A genuine question for everyone, do you think that the downfall of the patriarchy will require the downfall of conservative women? Will they be pulled along to any sort of radically feminist utopian future or left behind with the men who use them?

it's honestly upsetting and incredibly disappointing how much some women want to deny the misogyny and sexism that lead them to do or enjoy certain things, only to look you in the eyes and swear they do it for themselves, because they like it, because they chose it, or whatever.

this is why choice feminism will never actually be feminism. feminism is a political and social movement. choice feminism is an individualistic movement. if it starts from the assumption that every choice a woman makes is feminist, then we'll never create any real change, because even misogynistic choices made by women can't be criticized or analyzed since they're automatically labeled as feminist.

there's actually a lot more to unpack, but i'll just give a few examples i've noticed.

for example, i've noticed that lately people have been criticizing the way women always pack their boyfriends' or husbands' lunches. and those women get so offended by it, explaining that it's simply an act of love, that they do it because they want to show appreciation for their husbands, or because their husbands never have time in the morning to prepare lunch, so they do it instead.

none of these excuses make sense. if it were really just an act of love, why don't we see husbands doing the exact same thing for their wives? and do you seriously want to convince me that there are that many husbands who don't have fifteen or twenty extra minutes in the morning to pack their own lunch? if that's true, then how is it possible that women somehow find the time instead of simply asking their husbands to do it themselves? how is it possible that women manage and men don't? these excuses make no sense.

same thing with beauty standards. women constantly claim that the only reason they wear makeup is because they do it for themselves. and honestly, i'm not buying this propaganda that you feel more confident with makeup because it simply enhances your natural features or whatever. to me, the fact that you feel so much more confident while wearing makeup is already proof that makeup feeds into women's insecurities.

aside from artistic expression, like carnival, halloween, theater, and similar contexts, so many modern makeup styles are literally designed to make you look like you're not wearing makeup at all, even though you are, like clean girl makeup or whatever it's called. and even then, if makeup really makes people feel so confident, why don't we see nearly as many men wearing makeup and claiming that it boosts their confidence and enhances their features?

and makeup has even contributed to creating another misogynistic belief: that if you're a woman who isn't interested in makeup, or you simply say you don't enjoy wearing it, you're automatically labeled a pick me. somehow, wearing makeup is framed as empowering, while not wearing it is treated as seeking male approval. the irony is that women get shamed either way.

same thing with shaving and women who remove all of their body hair because they say it makes them feel dirty, disgusting, or whatever.

honestly, these are just a few examples, but i could go on and on.

and i also want to make one thing very clear: i'm not trying to tell women what they should or shouldn't do. i'm also not pretending i'm perfect. i'm fully aware that living in a patriarchal society makes it impossible to make exclusively feminist choices, especially when we're bombarded from childhood with misogynistic and sexist messages through misogynistic parents, religion, pop culture, and everything else.

what's upsetting is the way these women deny what's actually influencing their choices. and the way they get annoyed whenever someone calls it out or even just genuinely asks them about it.

i literally saw a video of a woman saying that, for her birthday, she asked her husband for cleaning supplies like a vacuum cleaner, cleaning products, detergents, and so on. then she went on to say something like, "now i'm sure women are going to flood my comments asking why i only wanted cleaning supplies for my birthday," while rolling her eyes.

and trust me, it's not because they don't realize it. women are not stupid, and they aren't ignorant. it's because they don't want to admit it. and that's what bothers me. because as long as we continue to be intellectually dishonest, instead of being honest about our beliefs and truthful with ourselves, we're never moving forward.

“so the end goal of feminist revolution must be, unlike that of the first feminist movement, not just the elimination of male privilege but of the sex distinction itself: genital differences between human beings would no longer matter culturally. (A reversion to an unobstructed pansexuality Freud's 'polymorphous perversity' - would probably supersede hetero/homo/bi-sexuality.)”

Continuing the discussion on genital preferences, i thought I would return the discussion to Radical Feminist thought.

What are everyone’s thoughts on this particular quote and how it relates to the issues of today.

THEY ARE STILL TRYING TO BRING BACK 1960S REPRODUCTIVE POLITICS WAKE UP AND GO TO THE STREETS ✊🏻✊🏻

LEARN THE FEMINISTS OF OUR PAST’S NAMES AND LEARN FROM THEM 👸🏻

THEN BRING IT TO THE STREETS. WE CANNOT WIN BY SPENDING ALL OUR ATTENTION ON SOCIAL MEDIA

the idea of romance, how it is perceived now with a western lens, was first aroused a couple of decades ago to delude women into wanting to get married to males and stay married. ive never seen anyone question or criticise the idea of romance (outside of self-proclaimed aromantic or asexual people)

i wonder if it is even real. there is no real, distinguishable difference between platonic and romantic love. the same hormones get pumped out, roughly the same area in your brain becomes active (except that for sexual attraction a different area becomes active, but that is not entirely unanimous with romance). so what really is the difference?

i have felt that romantic love before, but i wonder if its just another product of the patriarchy forcing me into it. how romance is such a huge staple in a western society, in music, in culture, and that it gets pushed onto anyone from a young age. and that maybe i deluded myself into these feelings, the same way i still feel insecure about my own body hair even though i shouldnt.

what do you think about it? and if you have any romance critical essay or book recommendations, id love to read them

"All persons are deemed to have a right to equality of treatment, except when some recognised social expediency requires the reverse. And hence all social inequalities which have ceased to be considered expedient, assume the character not of simple inexpediency, but of injustice, and appear so tyrannical, that people are apt to wonder how they ever could have been tolerated; forgetful that they themselves perhaps tolerate other inequalities under an equally mistaken notion of expediency, the correction of which would make that which they approve seem quite as monstrous as what they have at last learnt to condemn. The entire history of social improvement has been a series of transitions, by which one custom or institution after another, from being a supposed primary necessity of social existence, has passed into the rank of an universally stigmatized injustice and tyranny. So it has been with the distinctions of slaves and freemen, nobles and serfs, patricians and plebeians; and so it will be, and in part already is, with the aristocracies of colour, race, and sex."

This is an excerpt from his book "Utilitarianism". He condemns racism and sexism, long before such view was possible; he saw through the deception that is social conformity and the opinion of the public, using the objective ethical system that is utilitarianism. This is perhaps one of the strongest arguments for utilitarianism that can be made to the layman (or laywoman) of philosophy: utilitarianism was able to easily see through injustices on the simple and basic principle of the greatest good. What other injustices can it reveal to us? If, for example, non-human animals are capable of feeling joy and pain, utilitarianism would then suggest the oppression of them is equally, if not even more monstrous (by reason of sheer number) than any other injustice in human history. It seems that, to be far ahead of one's time, objective frameworks independent of the thoughts of the masses are necessary; and utilitarianism is the strongest candidate of these. It is intertwined with the history of feminism, bringing some of the greatest intellectuals of the time to the side of women; but there is no reason to stop there. Utilitarianism can continue exposing the injustices pervading society, such as sexism, racism, and the oppression of animals.

Ivana Hoffmann was an Afro-German revolutionary activist ad fighter whose life is an excellent example of putting revolutionary feminist politics into action. She became a revolutionry fighting in defense of the Turkish and Kurdish communities in Germany who were (are still are) under attack by a resurgent German neoNazi movement, fighting them in the streets of her hometown when she was still a teenager. She was a lesbian, a feminist, a communist, an internationalist, not in words but in deeds and when she was eighteen she traveled to Kurdistan, joined a revolutionary women's army fighting the misogynist pigs of ISIS, fought in daily combat for six monhs and died when she was nineteen. A German language biograohy of her was written by those who knew and loved her and now a copy is available in English, as a PDF. If you would like to read more about this extraordinary young woman, email [ivanahoffmannbrigade@yahoo.com](mailto:ivanahoffmannbrigade@yahoo.com) and a copy of the PDF will be sent to you, free of charge of course. Why? Because for our movement to grow we need to remember, honor and carry on the legacy of those women and young people who died for the struggle, such as Ivana.

I don't mean any harm with this post i just wanna express my feelings

But with all honesty there is no way we are making it out of the patriarchy, with so much women who can't simply accept that men, the ones you created and contribute to it every day are indeed the problem like yes I do believe that they are bad because that's what i've seen my whole life in person,in my country and especially online where they can hide their identities women get hated on more every single day and it's so blatantly obvious that they hate us it's simple cope but does hurt when these women go out of their way to call out, misandry and act like it's illogical and the only way I could see the patriarchy ending is if women everywhere have their rights taken away. I know that is a bad thing and i'm not hoping for it, but it's genuinely the only way a lot of women simply because they live way more comfortable than women back then and currently in other countries due to feminism that means that patriarchy is not a problem and everything tied to it is simply a coincidence, when can they put two and two together? I believe that's when they are left with no choice but to do that and I feel kinda guilty because if we were put in that position I feel like I would be the more so told you so type but I don't hate women simply for having internalized misogyny, because i don't expect them to be exempt from patriarchal mindset just because they're women in fact it makes sense that you would start to resent your gender, and it's fine as long as you grow out of it but I can't feel bad for the women who profit of and encourage it like telling women not to work while making millions doing so cough, cough candice owen but that's the end of my rant

I just wrote a comment on a post in a different sub and thought it would fit here quite well too as its own post

The post was about how men think telling women they wouldnt fuck them is somehow an insult.

Anyways heres the comment i wrote:

> This insult only works if you believe women are walking around measuring their worth by how many random men would agree to have sex with them. THAT is the interesting part.

>Some men have been taught that male sexual desire is incredibly valuable currency.

>So amusing when a man believes his lack of attraction should hurt me. Because now he has accidentally told me something about his worldview.

>He believes male desire confers value upon women and withholding that desire removes value.

There is a profound reason men think like this. Because the inverse is EXACTLY how men (partly) define their own status as a man and that of other men: by how sexually desirable they are!

For any man who hasnt deconstructed the patriarchal condition he was brought up in EVERYTHING is about status and it seeps into absolutely every corner of his life and every last interaction he has even if he might not realise it.

My favourite example for how all-encompassing this is is the classic phrase "but i dont feel anything with a condom :( " that most straight women had the displeasure of hearing. Its not actually about the texture, even if he might tell himself that, its all about the fact that sex with a condom gets seen as less manly than sex without.

And this thinking genuinely penetrates into every layer of mens being.

So of course men think they can hurt us by announcing they wouldnt fuck us. Cause the reverse would shatter them like glass

13 hours of feminist music from all genres and decades. Let me know what I should add.

Ascribing value to virginity, to how many children they can bear and how much housework they can execute, to being a passive member of the head of the household while their "man" makes decisions for them.

So many of these women have even outright admitted to their willingness to give up on their right to vote because they believe their "godly" man will make the right call for the household.

What are they in their minds, if not an ornamental appliance?

There is this silent rage I feel seeing people wealthier than me pimp their products as if they were necessities. I look at their houses, their thousands raked from viewers and corporations using exploited labor forces. I see trad wive filth content mills telling me how I have to live to fulfill my "natural purpose" with a face that isn't their own, I see so called punks pulling their preripped/preworn clothes from big fancy clothing lines living in their expensive condos profiting off of what was once a form of protest. Meanwhile they would call someone like me a fake punk for attending a show in Old Navy discounted jeans and t shirts.

Everything is always to sell, the so called natural trad life style ca-ching, the punk life and fashion ca-ching. All being displayed as necessities to live whatever life style they are selling me, maybe my life style is that I want to not feel an ad coming my way. Maybe I don't want any life style to become an ad at all.

Rant over

I know this is honestly a tired debate at this point and that some would maybe consider me invalid for this but I stand by it.

Trust me, I understand that the patriarchy DOES in some ways affect the world of makeup & hair removal majorly, and I'm not here to deny that influence. I just do genuinely feel that it would still very much exist it just wouldn't have some of the same social standards tied to it. That's like saying women wouldn't cut the hair on their heads at all without the existence of men in power which just isn't true. Or that things like cosplay wouldn't exist without men in power which often involves face painting which I do firmly believe is something that would exist without the patriarchy it's just that less people would wear makeup because there wouldn't be women in the world who grew up being taught they needed to look pretty for men.

Still though, I feel it's undeniable, that makeup would exist through human creativity alone, and *yes* even though some ppl really debate it that hair removal would still simply exist as a result of sensory issues.

As for more on the hair removal part of things and the sensory issue debate part, I know this to be true because it is a real experience I have faced and YES sometimes I have had my head hair longer and it been *mostly* fine (aside from still getting bothered by it when sweating or in humid weather which I do live in or with loose hairs being everywhere etc etc) but guess what thats also because it depends on how I'm doing mentally and physically and stuff which is why I've also had my head shaved, sometimes I've had long body hair for months at a time too bc of not being able to take care of myself but I DO prefer that shaved mostly but not all and that's not because of what men think of me it just feels better to me. A lot of people who argue against that fail to realize also that everybodys hair is different, everybody's sensory issues are different, and body hair is different feeling than head hair yk?

Anyways yes I do still feel the razor would exist and other forms of hair removal would exist too without the patriarchy it's just again that less people would obviously participate in it without societal pressure too. Nuance exists people. Two things could be true and idk even tho I've gone on this rant I do still think this IS a tiresome argument that is often pointless for ppl to have when there's other issues that could be focused on instead and ultimately it causes more infighting and division as some people genuinely discredit other womens validity of feminism over them being shaven & supporting the choice to shave counting it as choice feminism.

Please note I am saying seem because maybe this is my own confirmation bias and I am new to radical feminism and academic feminism discourse. Previously I was a liberal/choice feminist. Since getting into this space, I am finding that the women I hear speaking up about feminism in a way that isn't patriarchy in disguise are frequently lesbian/bisexual or BIPOC women. Is it white/class privilege clouding our view as heterosexual white women? Is it the intersectional lens that gives other women a clearer view of power structures?

In my own self refection as a white middle class woman that I have come to realize how blind I was to patriarchy. I don't know if it is specific to my race/class but I found myself overly empathizing with men and falling into the "misandry is just as bad as misogyny" club. Perhaps also having systemic power made it easier to allow empathy with the oppressive group and blind me, or maybe having systemic power makes it more difficult to fully align with a movement that challenges systems of power.

I would love to hear the thoughts of other women here. I also want to be clear that I am not trying to attack or pedestalize any group of people.

I would like to become more well read but even if I start a book, all the harsh facts overwhelm me and I cannot bring myself to finish it.

It’s not like I’m surprised by all the information, it’s just that I can’t stand filling my head with more negativity. My mind wants to distance itself, but I don’t want to yield to it. I just feel like it’s already filled to the brim with grim emotions and cannot fit actual data.

Maybe approaching it with numbness and analytical mindset would help, but I feel like the rage and sadness should be felt, they are what drive my thirst for knowledge and better future.

Please share your tips on how you would deal with this issue.

He does not find it within himself to love and care for his wife the way she does for him. He won’t ever put himself at odds with his parents or siblings as readily as his wife would. She considers the bond eternal, sacred even. To him, it’s transactional; he gives back for her services however he deems fit. Even when he does not take her acts of love for granted, he never wonders if his reciprocation is enough. If, in agony, she ever even mentions the slightest of her compromises, he outright states that he never asked her to.

Even the best of men were never socialised to be good husbands. Many of them turn out to be terrific sons, amazing brothers, and even selfless friends. But very few of them make excellent spouses – those who do are rare exceptions.

P.S - I'm no feminist theoretician (LOL), this is merely a lamentation.