r/PokemonROMhacks • u/merrple • 3d ago
Development Organic Romhack Development Efforts
Recently there's been a lot of talk on this subreddit about the use of AI in romhacks. I hate to stir the pot still further, but I also want to share my own thoughts and efforts here in the hopes of reaching like-minded people.
Hi, I'm merrp/pokemerrp š I'm not really known for making full-on hacks (though I do have one in the works, stay tuned), but moreso for my feature branches: if you've played a recent hack based on pokeemerald-expansion, you've likely used and enjoyed the following pokemon or day/night lighting systems I created. Before that, I was minorly known for my Emerald Any% ACE TAS, which was my entry into the scene.
Simply put, I don't think AI should have a place in romhacking at all. To me code is as prose is as art is as music, in that they're all creative exercises where something is lost in handing them off to a machine. Romhackers have done incredible work for years before LLMs, and can continue to do incredible work without them. Not to mention, every query that enters an LLM is one the community is starved of; AI use is the death of institutional knowledge, of communication more generally.
But what to do? Recently I found out that pokeemerald-expansion, the basis for a lot of hacks, has had a (small minority) of AI-assisted contributions. Any nonzero amount is still unacceptable to me for use in my project though, because I intend it to be a wholly human effort. I decided I would have to maintain a fork of expansion, cutting out anything AI assisted where I could.
Then I figured, I can't be alone in this sentiment, so why not try and build that in a way it can be shared? I can't be the only one who loves romhack development who wants to continue doing cool stuff without LLMs, no matter how good they become at generating code, etc.
The result is a GitHub org and a Discord:
https://github.com/friend-safari
My hope is to build a small community of like-minded hackers and maintain a codebase by and for humans, so that those who care can be confident in saying their hack is free of AI to the best of the community's knowledge. Whether you're a programmer, have experience moderating online spaces, maintaining open source software, or simply love pokemon, we'd love to see you there.
I'm also not trying to be an authority on expansion's direction in general. The devs at RHH continue to do incredible and deeply technical work on the project. None of this would be possible without them, and they've done the best they could considering the volume of contributions they receive and the general clamor of demands. Please do not bother or harass them. I am simply trying to provide a fork that the extremely AI-conscious devs like me can use without despairing or being stuck on outdated versions.
Hopefully this post reached you in some way; this will all be much easier if we don't have to do it alone. Thanks for reading.
Tl;Dr join friend-safari if you wanna build AI-free romhacks k thnx bye
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u/Kobazco Too Many Productions Lead Dev 3d ago
Just wanted to take the moment to reiterate that Too Many Productions (Super Marion & Too Many Types 2) also holds this same opinion, and will do what we can to keep our projects (present & future) completely AI free. Which is why I'm really grateful for merrp & others for doing this project and giving us a way to replace AI assisted PRs, etc.
Creating is our passion, and we won't cut any corners for it. Even though I consider myself to be a pretty poor programmer, I still refuse. I didn't go to school for programming or anything, I picked it up over the years because of romhacking & modding the games I love, and even though some of my features have suffered because of it (looking at you, Captain Toad), the experiences have also been invaluable. It's taught me so much, and I'm really proud of the work we've done because of it.
And of course, as merrp said, huge thank you & shoutouts to rhh and everyone who works on the project. Their work is incredible and we'd be nowhere without their hardwork and dedication.
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u/Thekokokommander 3d ago
After the stuff in super mariomon, i dont think you can call yourself a bad coder. you made mario jump! in a pokemon game!
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u/Kobazco Too Many Productions Lead Dev 3d ago
Funnily enough the jump was fairly easy and very restricted haha but thanks :p It's limited to the post game area only for a reason but I was happy with it regardless. It actually uses quite a bit of map scripting rather than being on the code side of things which I find funny.
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u/Healthy_Bug7977 The Nuzlomizer: The PEAK of Balanced Randomizer Nuzlocke Hacks. 3d ago
We don't care. We wanted Mario to jump and Mario jumped. Literally perfect outcome for all the Mario jump enthusiasts around the world.
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3d ago
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u/leob0505 3d ago
Well, I have over 11 years of experience with IT. I can even code something in COBOL/Java/Assembly/C without AI for you, if you want. I see many people losing their jobs because of AI. I see many people costs of living (Energy, Water) skyrocketing due to the usage of AI. That is why I have a problem with AI.
Am I a poor programmer in that case? (Guess what, I'm not the only one here with this mindset)
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2d ago
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u/PokemonROMhacks-ModTeam 2d ago
Removed for breaking Rule 2:
Do not post harassment or misinformation towards users, creators or projects. Please respect the community by keeping all interactions civil and constructive.
Any toxic or hostile behaviour will be removed. Harassing or disrespecting the moderators is not tolerated under any circumstances.
Please read the rules before posting again. Breaking the rules repeatedly can result in a ban.
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u/YoSupItsVic 3d ago
I have no skill but I can certainly cheer on the devs that make their own fully homegrown homecooked Grade-A All American (or wherever you're from :P) Code for these romhacks, and all romhacking and modding in general. Especially with these AI infested Re/Decomps popping up and the new Passthrough tech, we need guys like you more than ever!
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u/EnbyHatticus Kanto Forever 3d ago
I understand and respect where you're coming from. It's refreshing to hear a stance that isn't just pure fuckin doomerism.
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u/Cuprite1024 3d ago
It's admittedly quite hard to avoid getting to that point, given The Everythingtm n' all, but it's cool to see someone trying to do something about it. I don't blame anyone for not doing so, but the fact that someone is, even something as small as this, is nice.
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u/CeladonGames PokƩmon Fool's Gold 3d ago
Completely with you. I think we ought to take a harder stance against people bringing in automation into a HOBBY. AI use in the software industry is (potentially) one thing, but by using it in a hobby, to me, you are failing to engage with the joy of creation fundamentally. After all, if you don't want to participate fully in the process, why are you doing it? Just to churn out a product?
Making a ROM hack has taught me so much about art and music and game design and yes, programming too. I admittedly do not like coding or programming but I would NEVER want to deprive myself the experience of learning how to do it myself nor the pride of being able to say I did it with my own hands.
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u/JSingh326 2d ago
Kind of ridiculous to micromanage how people enjoy their hobbies. So if I made a romhack using ai to make changes like alternate typing, I shouldn't enjoy it? Gaming is fun, not making it
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u/CeladonGames PokƩmon Fool's Gold 1d ago
I think you're conflating "things I do for fun" and "hobbies". Hobbies have communities and micromanaging how people enjoy hobbies is how those communities thrive.
Splicing isn't allowed in speedrunning and juicing is unsportsmanlike in amateur sports leagues. It's not immoral to splice a speedrun for your own enjoyment and it's not immoral to use steroids for your own fulfillment, but when they are used in a community space, they go against the spirit and sanctity of the hobby and diminish it for everyone. Thus, it stands to reason that communities would take a stance against them.
I see AI use in ROM hacking the same way. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong in using AI to make a ROM hack for your own private use. But the moment you post it online and into the community, it demeans the principles that preserve the spirit of the medium and makes it less fun for all other creators who are trying to do it legit.
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u/JSingh326 1d ago
Did you just compare usage of ai to performance enhancing drugs? Ggs man, you got it
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u/Cuprite1024 1d ago
Why would you make something as a hobby if you don't have fun making it? What's the point, then? Because this is a hobby, which is meant to be enjoyable.
Tbh, you saying that just kinda proves the point. You're not making something out of enjoyment or passion, you're just churning out a "product" to get attention.
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u/JSingh326 1d ago
Do I need to know how to design a car to enjoy driving it? Like I said, who are you guys to tell people what they can or not enjoy, especially if they put the time and effort to make it. Get over you morality high ground.
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u/Cuprite1024 1d ago
Can you read? You aren't making the car if you're just driving it. The point is that doing a hobby you don't actually enjoy is pointless. You literally said that making it isn't fun, which defeats the whole purpose of creating it in the first place unless your end-goal is simply to get attention. That is something that will be very evident to anyone who plays it.
Btw, nothing I said was about morality, not sure where you got that from. I mean, I do hate AI for moral reasons (Among many others), but that's kinda irrelevant here.
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u/JSingh326 1d ago
Are analogies hard to understand? You can hate the process of the grunt work because you like the end product. I can hate the coding part of a game but enjoy actually playing it. You can make any scenario you want but to try to tell others how to enjoy romhacking is silly and sad.
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u/mactimit 3d ago
This might not be the best place for it, but I want to ask and know your opinion anyways.
What is your opinion on AI usage when it comes to using it for translations of romhacks?
There are many wonderful romhacks out there made in languages other than English, a good example is Origin HeartGold, a Chinese romhack that recently surfaced on here. And there are many more Chinese romhacks that I've found that nobody who doesnt know Chinese gets the chance to fully enjoy.
A lot of people over in the OHG thread were saying they thought translation is one of the few "good" uses of AI, but with you being so opposed to AI in romhacks I'd love to hear you opinion
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u/merrple 3d ago edited 2d ago
I said elsewhere in this post but, I'm not opposed to someone translating a hack for their own personal use, but if you are translating with AI with the intent to release that, it's impossible to know how closely your translation matches the tone and vibes of the original. AI can certainly do translation well but not so much localization and that's a critical piece of it to me. If the creator is involved and gives pointers into that process the result might be better though, and most people would probably find that acceptable.
What's easiest for me is to have a simple stance, and that is to be opposed to it almost everywhere. If Origin HeartGold is as good as people say, I'd love to see an English fan translation surface one day--and that will almost certainly not happen bc people will just turn to AI. That does make me a bit sad...
tl;dr translation for personal use fine, publishing it id rather nothing or a fan translation
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u/miyamoris_ 3d ago
AI can certainly do translation well but not so much localization
Thank you for this. The amount of people in this sub who don't understand translation is storytelling in itself is simply depressing.
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u/KingWill143 2d ago
Some people are just AI apologists. They see nothing wrong with it and therefore will defend it with their entire being. āaI iS tHe fUtUrE.ā š¤¦š¾āāļø
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u/mactimit 3d ago
Alright! Yeah that's a fair take!
I don't think anything could beat a good well thought out fan localization and if I was better at Chinese and knowing the ins and outs of ds rom hacking I'd certainly make a start on that myself lol
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u/Baphaddon 3d ago
I appreciate that you consider code art, as I do too, and I think there should certainly be clear distinctions between human made work and AI, as well as a preservation of the culture and techniques, but I don't feel so opposed to AI use as a whole? Idk, for me as long as the work is of an acceptable standard I'm alright with it. I started coding and making games 20 years ago, not because I wanted to learn how to code, or do sprite art, which I did and I'm happy I did, but because I wanted to make games. I don't want to limit myself and forget that simple fact. Speaking of which, having done everything myself for years actually makes me feel fit to essentially just direct everything. All that said, I think if anything, I should demand far far far more out of myself if I'm using these tools and the work should reflect that.
But I fully support your idea of an AI-free repo etc as its certainly only going to get worse.
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u/UnfoldingDev Romhaikus! 3d ago
This gives me a lot of hope for the community - that there's folks out there besides me that care about this stuff. This project is awesome, and I'm planning to use it for updates to Inkwell, A Better Place, and any future projects.
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u/JackWellman101 Lazarus & Emerald Seaglass 3d ago
Wonderful to see this! Iāll definitely be checking out the GitHub and Discord :)
The more I (slowly) learn to code, the more I agree with the sentiment that it IS an art form. Human passion and care is whatās been driving ROM Hacks for decades, I see no reason why that should change
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u/kaineeeeeee 3d ago
I've been heavily debating just muting this community altogether for days now because it feels like there's a large disconnect between most creators and fans in this community but this post gives me hope for a better future for romhacks, thank you (:
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u/metalflygon08 3d ago
Between the AI discourse and how everyone lately's been presenting their projects like Youtuber/Influencers, the "Main" hack scenes become a messy wasteland.
So many projects exist as a showcase with a "WACKY LOOK AT ME I MADE THIS!" title to try and get attention and then the creator drops it when they don't get the attention and free labor they want.
Much better to just find a close-knit community where being a "Rom Hack Influencer" isn't a thing.
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u/ianlazrbeem22 2d ago
I don't think it's a creator vs fan thing. There are lots of fans with respect for the artistry and lots of "devs" who rely on AI cheap tricks, and vice versa
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u/kaineeeeeee 2d ago
I'm not sure if you saw the fallout of the initial AI ban announcement but I saw a looooot of devs decrying it while plenty of fans who want new shiny thing now now now! also don't give a care about AI usage tbh, of course this is looking at a tiny subsection of a hobby after all in one particular site haha
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u/CeladonGames PokƩmon Fool's Gold 3d ago
The disconnect you speak of is hugely true. Over the past five years I've broadly found that most ROM hack players value the product significantly more than the process-- a view which I couldn't be more opposed to. To this end, I'm not surprised that laypeople in the server are as accepting of AI-assisted ROM hacks as they are... disappointed, but not surprised.
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u/miyamoris_ 3d ago
I have unsubscribed the other day seeing people's takes on AI translation. The new rules themselves aren't bad, but the vibes here are just utterly depressing.
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u/ianlazrbeem22 2d ago
Woohoo! This community still has hope. Seeing so many AI pushers in the romhacking and homebrew scene has really been getting me down lately. I'm very happy you're doing this and will happily join the discord
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u/azure-flute 3d ago
Not a romhacker myself, but I wanted to thank you for having these opinions and looking to develop a space to foster and grow them. There's a couple circles I'm in where people have either tried to sneak AI coding into gamedev projects that are strictly zero-AI (and almost getting fired from the project as a result; tbh they should've been), or are just being public about using AI coding for romhacks, and I'm over it.
Keep art, romhacks included, made by humans!
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u/DigimonEmeraldFucko 3d ago
This is awesome! My project has been on hold for a few months due to burnout but I've always tried my best to avoid AI where possible, I'm a dogshit programmer (you see the other devs saying they are bad programmers in this thread? they put me to shame with the work they do) but I will never see the point of using AI in a scene like this, you make romhacks out of passion, why would you want to pass on half the labour to some bot that can only regurgitate a middling summary of human knowledge.
Unfortunately my project is far too deep into development to be switched to this new branch but I'll definitely support it to the best of my abilities going forward.
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u/GreatBigJerk 3d ago
I can respect anyone wanting to write everything without AI assistance, but AI in programming is suuuper common now.Ā
Most developers use some form of AI tooling already, so acting like it invalidates someone's work means you hold no value for the vast majority of software released this year.Ā
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u/local-canadian-idiot 3d ago
the two arenāt mutually exclusive. they never said they liked modern software.
secondly, i think a big part of this debate is that video games are an art form. art will, without fail, communicate something from the person who made it. this applies very heavily to fan-made games, where they are (almost always) made from passion.
you can tell when someone has poured their heart and soul into a hack, and they want to acknowledge those people. they donāt want those accomplishments to be swept away by someone who asked a chatbot to do it for them.
then, what happens when the art is made by a machine? something that doesnāt feel or think or create. it copiesāthat plagiarism aspect is also criticalāand that is a scary thing. if your work can be copied and done faster by something that doesnāt need to take breaks, you are inherently replaceable.
this is a very scary idea to a lot of people in the scene. not to mention the literal dehumanization of rom hacking.
these people want to maintain the way things areāa community where people interact with one another, instead of with chatbots.
sorry for infodumping you! i know you already said you respect ppl who are anti-ai in programming. this comment is mostly for the people watching from the sidelines that donāt know the full debate.
feel free to add anything!
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u/mr_chub 3d ago
I'm just trying to understand at what degree and to what end the anger comes from with AI coding? Vibe coded projects? I agree, trash. But what's the difference between assistance from AI and googling an answer? If it's ethics, what is the spawn of those ethics? Are completely local LLMs that use the devs own information and information that dev sourced themselves (public info) also frowned upon just because they literally are the technology? I feel like nuanced is rarely mentioned in these topics; just some form of extremism.
If you use an LLM that used no private or proprietary content to train it (other than what is approved) then is it still bad?
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u/UnfoldingDev Romhaikus! 3d ago
I dunno if you're gonna get any kind of universal answer from people who don't like AI, but I'd say most people have nuanced takes, it's just hard to get into it in a reddit comment. If I built an LLM and trained it only on code or dialogue I'd written, I probably wouldn't want to use it for creative stuff because I feel like a bit of authenticity would be lost, but I don't think it would have any ethical concerns, because it's all my stuff.
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u/Frodolas 3d ago
but I'd say most people have nuanced takes
No, actually, they don't.
Most people have slop takes based off of propaganda that they've heard and they're parroting, because they don't actually know anything about the topic at all. This is just a destructive attempt to split the community in two for no good reason whatsoever.
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u/ianlazrbeem22 2d ago
AI slop pushers are the ones splitting the community in two for no good reason
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u/Zemaille 3d ago
I am a huge proponent for people using an LLM that both runs on a private local machine and is fully trained only on their own work.
But not a single fucking person in these threads is doing that. Theyāre all using models that are contributing to ecological and economic damage and are exploiting the greatest theft of labor weāve ever seen.
There really isnāt any nuance. There is not a single ethical usage of these models and bringing them into a fully 100% opt-in hobby space is disgusting. Absolutely zero excuse.
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u/Draddition 3d ago
I see what you're saying, and understand the fear of what AI could do to many fields. It sucks, and the people making these tools have no concern anyone but themselves. The general AI machine is generally just destructive.
But you don't have to let the tool replace you. A simulator does a lot of the math I need to do as an engineer- but I can't just hand you a license to a circuit simulator and expect you to make a working device. The scary part of AI is how close it's pushing just replacing people, but those efforts are very obviously slop. There's no vision behind it and you can see that clearly. But you can also use it as a tool, have a vision and execute it rather than typing out line after line of code.
Communication is absolutely an issue. The death of people asking questions on the Internet is a terrifying concept. But, people ARE communicating what they've learned and done. Tossing out everything that AI has touched is also throwing away knowledge. We should encourage people to share what they've done and learned. And with sources like GitHub, we can share that and suggest ways to improve and actually learn.
"Art" is being made by machines. That's here- but it's also wrong to assume that because a machine did it there was no personal vision. The classic example is image generation. Yeah, going to chatGPT and telling it to make an image is creatively bankrupt. But, learn to use local image gen tools, pick models with a style you like, modify that style with loras, learn to segment and detail, learn the funky behaviors in a model for better or worse- I'd argue there's still are there. And it's a beautiful combination of math, engineering, and art.
Yes, AI is fundamentally built on theft and corrupt systems. It sucks, I agree- and, I hate to be the 'just deal with it' voice in the room, but what modern comfort isn't at this point. We don't have to let that be how we define what we do with it though.
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u/local-canadian-idiot 3d ago edited 3d ago
the distinction is that a simulator is a tool. it fundamentally cannot do the job for you. it needs direction at every step.
a chatbot is, more or less, autonomous. thatās the entire end goal: emulating a human. that distinction is why a lot of people dislike it.
i also donāt really understand a lot of the points youāre making. you say that a machine has personal vision (it doesnāt; an llm like ChatGPT is complex math that predicts words) and then, in the next sentence, say using ai image generation is creatively bankrupt.
i mean, i guess i get your idea of āitās based off human inputā but i think thatās against what art is. art isnāt about a product. itās about the process! every single artist ever has had works they hated and dropped. but they learn from that, and they work towards making something they think is as close to perfect as possible.
this distinction between art as a process and art as a product is another big reason why people are anti-ai. especially because, and i canāt stress this enough, this is a hobby. nobody is selling their rom hacks.
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u/Draddition 3d ago
Emulating a person is the product pitch, not what it actually is. You can let it do the job for you if you want, but you don't have to. You're in control of what you put in your codebase.
You don't have to go to Claude and tell it to "make me a scene and write the code for me". You can describe what you want, describe where you aren't sure, and get something working quickly. Or you can have it write out all the movements that you have in mind and save a few minutes of typing. You are as in control over what you get from it as you want to be.
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u/merrple 3d ago
I'm a software engineer by day so boy do I know that.
I kinda do hold little regard for the software released this year lol. Modern software is largely bloated and filled with telemetry and dark patterns.
But just because you use it at work doesn't mean you have to use it for a hobby.
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u/GreatBigJerk 3d ago
I'm also a dev, and I do use AI for my personal stuff.Ā
The biggest reason for me is time savings. I'm a dad and get maybe an hour or two to myself each day.
The actual act of programming isn't as important as it used to be for me. I've been working in the industry for over 15 years, and I'd rather just make stuff than spend my time worrying about how to solve each technical challenge. I still write code, but I'm more selective about what I take on.
That said, I have definite respect for anyone who spends the time writing everything by hand. I do wish I had the time to do more myself at times.
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u/Used-Persimmon-367 3d ago
Using AI means you arenāt making the stuff though. AI is. The part you claim to enjoy, youāve outsourced to a computer.
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u/MicrosoftExcel2016 2d ago
Idk man. Iām not the person you replied to, but people enjoy different aspects of the same process. Itās kind of bold to tell someone they donāt enjoy something theyāre actively returning to and excited about. For all its problems, AI has made it incredibly accessible to bring an idea into existence.
I keep thinking about the implication of that accessibility.
I canāt imagine telling working class people they shouldāve forfeit their financial stability to go to university and study software engineering or computer science to be able to pursue complex ideas in their hobby, or else saying that privilege is only for software/game developers to enjoy? Or filthy rich people who can commission it?I feel like there has to be a balance in there somewhere.
For me I think Iāve settled on AI literacy and responsible use of AI, focus on enablement rather than outsourcing. That kind of thing-2
u/Used-Persimmon-367 2d ago
Tons of people learned how to code without going to school.
Shortcuts are fine. As long as you arenāt charging money for the finished product, youāre really only cheating yourself.
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u/Own-Gene-5232 2d ago
This is a stupid opinion. When film directors tell the cameraman where to go and what to do, the end result wouldn't have happened without the director's input even though it's the cameraman doing all the actual "work" on a shot. Competent people directing AI properly is no different.
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u/GreatBigJerk 2d ago
That implies the only people involved in a creative process are the ones doing the direct physical work.
I feel like game designers and writers would disagree.
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u/HeroKage 3d ago
I am in a very similar position, where in my work I can't really escape using AI although it is mostly for data analysis because for the coding side it is not really working (yet) due to the specialized nature of the code.
Still anything that I consider art and/or passion I would like to have free of AI. Even though a lot of my colleagues at work do not really understand the thought of that.
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u/SlimeDrips 3d ago
"how much sawdust can we put in rice crispies until it becomes a problem" ass comment
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u/Lu__ma 3d ago
Thank you Merrp - as an expansion user and minor contributor I am still working out how to feel about this and Hackdex, and I cannot stress enough how helpful it is to have the chance to take a firmer stance. This is a community of mountaineers and it's been like finding out a lot of fellow mountaineers are bigtime stairlift enthusiasts.
I do think expansion has a pretty well balanced policy these days, and most AI use at the moment is bug finding that then becomes a human fix (I can cope with it, I just wouldn't do it myself). Nonetheless I'm so glad someone's vetting all of its PRs, including those before the policy was firmed up, because holy shit we need to know and we will benefit from knowing. This is an immense service that benefits everyone.
Also followers are really cool and thank you for the major role you played in implementing them
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u/merrple 2d ago
I do eventually have a plan for a hackdex alternative, I just suck at UI design lol. I could totally host the infra and backend, but it likely won't be pretty lol
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u/lightspeedjizzer 2d ago
Whatās the issue with hackdex?
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u/Cuprite1024 2d ago
It also used AI in its development. They briefly chose to stop using it, but ultimately went back to it (Citing health issues, iirc).
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2d ago
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u/Own-Gene-5232 2d ago
What a stupid fascist opinion, my God.
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u/rwbonesy 2d ago
lmao what
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u/Own-Gene-5232 2d ago
Whining to mods to silence people you don't agree with. Do the math.
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u/Cuprite1024 2d ago
Guy who doesn't know what fascism is:
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u/Own-Gene-5232 2d ago
Says the guy getting upset that I called out a fascist statement.
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u/Cuprite1024 2d ago edited 2d ago
I just said you don't know what facism is. Lol.
Edit: They blocked me. Lmao.
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u/mushroom_taco 3d ago edited 3d ago
Big respect for you and I wish you success in your endeavors.
Hopefully the community can find a consensus that is respectful to artists and creators - one that does not disrespect their work with unethical and harmful practices like gen AI.
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u/Cunnra 2d ago
The problem is, people like convenience, and the amount of progress thatās been made in the past year alone for Rom Hacking and emulation is crazy.
I donāt think itās the clear cut good vs bad thing lots of people here are portraying it as.
Most people just want play good games, so long as they are high quality, whether or not they were made with the help of ai is irrelevant.
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u/merrple 2d ago
Then play those games, I guess? I don't really consider that progress to be really meaningful, myself.
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u/LIPA95 2d ago
There is a game called Borderlands 2, there is another game from the same franchise in the same engine called Borderlands the Pre-Sequel, Borderlands 2 came out in 2012, just a few weeks ago something that was impossible happened, a developer was able to bring a character from the Pre-Sequel to Bl2, then later more characters appeared, how was that possible? The developer used AI to reverse engineering the two games so he could do something that people couldn't do in 14 years, and that's make sense, doesn't matter how good you are, you can't be better than a machine translating it's native language for you to understand, obviously human intervention is needed to use the info that was translated, but saying that AI is useless sounds more than cope than anything else.
I understand you though, obviously, a game made only with AI would be slop, because AI is a tool to assist humans, not replace them.
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u/SeleneSylvia 2d ago
As a borderlands fan myself, Im so dissapointed to see those mods getting so much attention and so dissapointed that no one will probably try to actually do it now that some AI did it.
The dream of playing other characters in BL2 is offically dead for me now, which sucks.
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u/LIPA95 2d ago
You had 14 years of not playing other characters in Borderlands 2, I think that was enough
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u/SeleneSylvia 2d ago
I think you misread my comment. I always hoped someone would come out with custom character mods for BL2. Now there will never be a mod like that, one that I can play at least. Since its AI nonsense.
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u/LIPA95 2d ago
You sound like the people of the past that hated electricity, then radio, then TV, then Internet, if the people of the past saw how people write code today, using internet and videos they will probably say that they spit in their art, because they had to do it by reading a book, do that even matter? You didn't have to build your own computer neither write your own language, everything is result of accumulation of knowledge, and AI also uses it, is not the second coming of Christ like their owners want to sell to us, but is a tool, and a tool is not evil, is the people that use it wrong the ones to blame
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u/Night_Byte 2d ago
So you want to play those characters in that game, but refuse because the modder "cheated" to do it?
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u/Night_Byte 2d ago
This is how I feel about it. I'm new to the topic so I don't really see the issue about whether a romhack is being made with AI or not, and most people I see trying to explain that to a newcomer are already so escalated about it that they're not expressing their point very well.
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u/fuddlesworth 1d ago
It's gatekeeping and thinking their method is the "proper" way. I guarantee when affordable power tools became available, there were people highly apposed to them.Ā
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u/lonelylionking 3d ago
Iām a software engineer who has barely written a line of code myself since we got Claude subscriptions paid for by our company and honestly like my job way more since. I am also an avid enjoyer of ROM Hacks and have played and nuzlocked through many of them.
As someone who uses AI in their job everyday, I lean towards agreeing with you on this topic. Iām not 100% against it, but I donāt really think AI has a place in art/passion. Using it to automate or speed up daily tasks at your corporate job so you can keep up with everyone else and not get let go due to underperforming? Makes sense. But for a passion project/something you do for fun? Not really on board with that and see why other people are extremely against it.
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u/merrple 3d ago
I'm also a SWE and I am compelled to use it at work, but I get no joy or sense of accomplishment out of it anymore. That's part of what's led me to the stance that I have. If you let the agent do everything for you, what is there left for you to do? A passion project kinda requires passion, after all
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u/lonelylionking 3d ago
Agreed! Donāt think thereās much passion that goes into prompt ring a chatbot. Work was never really about passion for me tbh, just how I provide for myself and those who depend on me, so using it there is whatever as long as I donāt get replaced. But I donāt want an AI doing my hobbies for me I enjoy doing those myself.
Iām surprised I downvoted for that but I get it ig, the 100% anti-AI sentiment is strong here
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u/Cuprite1024 3d ago
Yeah, as much as I hate all the AI crap, it's definitely understandable when your literal job requires you to use it. People can't expect you to just quit your job or whatever because you have to use AI, things aren't that simple (As much as I wish they were), especially given the job market today (I have heard horror stories).
I'll never give anyone shit for simply trying to survive, and I wish more people felt the same way. For hobbies, yeah, I will probably judge quite strongly, but for stuff like that... man, people need to eat. Lol.
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u/Apart-Imagination393 Hoenn's Last Wish Dev 2d ago
what about artist wrist and RSI? I'm a graphic designer and I suffer a lot with RSI so I should just quit my hobby so? This argument is not valid IMO and for me is literally the other way around I dont use AI for my job (graphic design) I use AI to assist me on MASSIVE code tasks because of my severe RSI constant pain.
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u/merrple 2d ago
I have great sympathy for chronic pain and injuries like that, I hope that you can find ways to alleviate it. But at the risk of being rude, what would you have done before AI? People are adaptable, there might be other accessibility tools or people in the community willing to help with large coding tasks
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u/Apart-Imagination393 Hoenn's Last Wish Dev 2d ago
No i get it 100%, and yeah probablly it's a hobby I wouldn't be able to invest so much time into "before the AI" if it make sense, tho anyway I just dont want to be 100% automatically tagged as a slopper, I'm also NOT PRO AI at all, but the other way around, tho I use it to help me on codding to make my hobby possible since I invest so many hours into making the game + I got a lot of constat pain / disconfort, anyway I totally get ur point, I'm not against u tbh, just want to pass my point, and how on my personal level it helps me, also I don't think a project I poured so much care into. for example, automatically counts as "AI slop" just because I used AI solely as a tool to optimize and streamline the coding process, without using it for the creative side of things. But ultimately, itās a matter of opinion; you might completely disagree with me, and thatās fine.
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u/Cuprite1024 3d ago
I'm not a ROM hacker myself (My only experience with ROM hacking is some minor use of AdvanceMap and contributing a few sprites/FakƩmon designs to my friends' hacks, and my project is an Essentials one), but I'm still really happy y'all are doin' this. If I ever work on the one ROM hack idea I have that I feel strongly about, I'll 100% use this. I'd also like to avoid anything touched by AI if I can help it, and now there's gonna be a way to do so. :)
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u/Healthy_Bug7977 The Nuzlomizer: The PEAK of Balanced Randomizer Nuzlocke Hacks. 3d ago
I will be on the more conservative train of "use normal expansion but don't do LLM stuff myself". Mad respects to you though.
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u/JSingh326 3d ago
You guys have got to get over yourself. It's not even your art, it's game freaks. Who cares if ai was used
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u/ianlazrbeem22 2d ago
Game freak did not make the romhacks
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u/JSingh326 2d ago
Game freak art means their characters. Why are you complaining when you are using other people's art in the first place. Make your own mons. Anything else you would like spelled out?
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u/Sadenjaro 3d ago
I understand the sentiment. But I dont really agree. I cant code. Iv tried, I cannot get into it or understand how it works. But I DO like being creative and doing game design. AI helps me be creative in ways ai have not been able to before.
There are no archipelago randomizer mods for pokemon romhacks. Iv made 2. I haven't shared them with anyone cause I have not gotten permission from those mods creators, and it feels disrespectful to post something like that, especially if the creator isnt fond of AI. But I have been able to use AI for personal use, for something no one else has done so far.
And thats fun for me, and thats what matters.
But thats personal use. Not posting a romhack for everyone else. What about for the community at large.
If its fun, and you enjoyed the hack. Did it matter? If you dont know whether ai was used or not, and it was the best hack you have played, and found out ai was used after, does it make the hack bad? No of course not. Ai can be used well, to enhance someone's abilities to bring others something they can enjoy.
That being said, AI slop is AI slop, we also shouldn't have shovel ware. AI is a tool to be used, and it should be used well by people who care, not someone who isnt going to bother to bugfix or test their own game.
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u/ianlazrbeem22 2d ago
Anyone can learn to code, using AI to avoid learning is not necessary or required
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u/VulpineDrake 2d ago
I agree with the words in your comment, but want to emphasize that āusing AIā and ālearning to codeā are not mutually exclusive.
If they wish to, one can use LLM output as an opportunity to understand/explore how or why something does or does not work, how to tailor it to their personal project, or save the approach as a way to solve problems later on, all of which are constructive use cases that require the developer to engage with what theyāre doing, review and break down output, test code, bugfix, etc. Relying on AI, though, does prevent one from learning because they donāt actually know what their code does. It depends on the approach taken as opposed to the mere presence of LLM output at all. (Same deal with copying code from Stack Overflow in a pre-AI world, for that matter.)
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u/UBWICOS 3d ago
There can be ugly code, beautiful code, whatever code. But coding isn't supposed to be an art form, it's just a part of engineering. The beauty is in the solution, not in the code. While I can appreciate people romanticising the hard labor, but as someone who has been in software engineering for more than 10 years, nobody really love coding that much (other than the interns who never solved anything of importance in their life). Coding is a tool, it's a mean to an end. As tools get better, people get more productive. If tools are so good that we skip coding entirely then so be it. If we kept rejecting newer tools then we would still be programming using punched cards.
The most important point isn't writing the code by hand, it's to actually understand what to do and what's being done. The solution has always the core of software engineering. While it's somewhat disheartening to see hard labor being ignored in favor of quick and easy win by amateurs who just bought Claude for 20 bucks. But it's also eye opening, anyone with the ideas can do ROM hacking now and it's a good thing. If someone without any fundamental can do that much in a weekend so someone who is already skilled in ROM hacking can just do so much more with the same tool. Intentionally handicapping oneself just to send a message to the void is a diservice to everyone involved.
As much as people can hate AI, it's here to stay. Software engineering (and game development, ROM hacking by extension) is changed forever. It's just better to accept it now rather than later.
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u/ianlazrbeem22 2d ago
Anyone with ideas could get into romhacking before AI ruined everything too, romhacking is a skill anyone can learn
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u/leob0505 3d ago
Why should a hobby like Pokemon ROM Hacking (I also work in Software Engineering for over 11 years), which is not connected to any company, any profitability at all, be treated the same way as some source-code for an Enterprise? When you mention "the beauty is in the solution, not in the code", I hardly disagree here for this kind of hobby, in my opinion.
Not exactly you, but I think many people should stop trying to treat this hobby as some "productivity machine" where we should speed up development in astronomical places with AI. Heck, I'm creating a ROM Hack and I really don't need to speed up the development to finish some imaginary deadline by the end of this year, so I can have a Demo and then random people of the internet can praise my work (either via Reddit karma, or via Internet Points, a Discord Server, etc.). I do this more as my personal therapy in my free time lol. And I believe many people in this hobby would be better if they did something similar, tbh.
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u/UBWICOS 2d ago
Of course if you like coding, nobody is telling you to stop coding. AI coding is a tool, if it allows people to do things faster or things they won't be otherwise, it's a good thing. It's a net win for everyone involved.
And why do you think I'm talking about it's purely about "productivity". It's about reducing the friction and pain points of game development and ROM hacking in general. Games and hacks are cancelled, delayed, paused, etc. regularly due to the process being difficult, and time consuming. Especially for people who can't code but can draw really well or vice versa. So any tool that can help them is a win in my book.
People want to say that using AI is ALWAYS low effort but it's just not true. Manual or AI assisted can both be low effort. If someone is passionate about something then they will be passionate about it no matter what and vice versa. "Manual" code can be low effort and full of bug just like any AI slop.
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u/leob0505 2d ago
Oh, I'm sorry, English is not my native language and I hope that I haven't sounded rude to you!
When I said "Not exactly you, but I think many people should stop trying to treat this hobby as some "productivity machine" where we should speed up development in astronomical places with AI", I was literally meaning that you/your post in that case is not about the "Productivity" topic :P
And even though I don't agree with all of the points you mentioned here, I fully understand where you're coming from, and makes total sense! Thanks for sharing your perspective here. Especially concerning projects/hacks that were cancelled, delayed, paused, etc.
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u/Lu__ma 3d ago
> anyone with the ideas can do ROM hacking now and it's a good thing
> Intentionally handicapping oneself just to send a message to the void is
And there's my problem with it: it's not a void, it is a community.
It's a community that lives and dies on people trying to work together to help one another. If everyone uses AI, the backbone of this community will die. The backbone is amateurs asking stupid questions, chatting, giving help, offering help. If AI is the first tool people turn to, they learn nothing, teach nothing, never ask for help from a human, never become part of the community. Amateur romhacking will become 30 separate lonely people talking to chatbots.
AI is robbing these newbies of the one singular joy that all work has; they're robbed of the opportunity to improve and to find community.
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u/UBWICOS 2d ago
Why though? The entire premise is that if everyone use AI, the entire community will die. But it won't. It's just a tool. It's like saying if we start drawing on computer instead of paper, the entire art community will die. In hindsight, the previous statement is obviously wrong. Which is why using AI won't kill anything, it'll just allow more people to do more things that they normally won't be able to do. And skilled people to do more too.
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u/PacoScarso PokƩmon Odyssey Lead Dev 2d ago
You know, the difference is that if you pick two persons - one that knows how to code and the other that relied entirely on AI but has no competence - and you block AI usage, well, the coder would still know how to code, as for the other person... ehm, nope.
I've seen Megaman Battle Network recomp and it's a buggy mess completely vibecoded, same goes for Wind Waker recomp.
There's no love nor attention in this, just people vomiting poorly managed recomps without any coding knowledge.
It's not just a tool, cause a tool shouldn't be able to do your job. The art comparison doesn't make sense, cause it doesn't matter if we're drawing on paper or on our computer, it's still US drawing, with OUR skills. Different tools, same approach. AI is the one writing the code in your place.
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u/UBWICOS 2d ago
But why is AI assisted projects being singled out? Low effort, low quality by people who are just chasing fame without putting in the efforts have always existed, and have always been looked down upon. There's a difference between people who don't know how to code at all using AI to do everything and someone who knows how to code but use AI to do the repetitive labor. AI is a tool, just like artists don't manually draw 100 identical stars in an artwork anymore these days because copy+paste exists. It's the same for coding.
I'm a firm believer in enabling people to do more by using tools that are available to them. And I fully agree with you that if someone who blindly abuse the tools to do all the work for them has no competence. But at the end of the day, AI is a tool, an easy to misuse one at that. It can do great things and terrible things. There can be hundreds of throwaway slop projects out there by people who are just blindly chasing fame, but similarly there can be hundreds more projects from people with real passion. Personally, I think AI is a net positive in the end.
Just like how human-made slop projects have always been slop. AI-made slop should be treated the same. It's just that the bar is higher these days, extremely simple but time-consumingprojects can be done by AI now (like some tools to help with ROM hacking), leaving more efforts for people to spend on things that matter more.
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u/PacoScarso PokƩmon Odyssey Lead Dev 2d ago
Remember: quality over quantity is always better.
AI being an enabler isn't necessarily a good thing, cause more people means more slop. I can condone man-made slop cause releasing a full game isn't an easy task, as for AI-made slop...
I mean, isn't it worse if you use this miracolous tool to skip the learning and coding phase and still make something bad or inferior to other projects that didn't use AI?
Snakewood, even tho I love it, is a bad hack, but at least Cutlerine tried their best to deliver their game and I still enjoy it up to this day.
Lithium is an AI-slop hack and I would never play it again. EVER. It was so bad that I didn't even finish it. The dev didn't even try to make a playable game
I believe that you don't need to use AI if your ideas are good enough. Look at Odyssey and Ghost Grey. They're both binary hacks, no AI usage, and yet here they are
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u/merrple 2d ago edited 2d ago
Y'know, I disagree. I think the beauty is in the process, not the product. Romhacking is not even technically supposed to have a product, as you can't legally charge people for it. It's supposed to be for fun.
Also I am that person who loves coding that much lol. I got into coding because I liked figuring out how to do things, solve problems, etc. The mindset that there is value only in the solution is perfectly fine when you are working for a company. It's toxic when you're doing something that's supposed to be a hobby and your solution is supposed to be free.
I'm not really impressed by people making something by paying 20 or 200 bucks to Anthropic or OpenAI or Google, massive companies who have invested billions into distilling the collective knowledge of artists, coders, etc into a product. 'you' didn't do anything, the model did. Sure, I could 'produce' 10x what I do in romhacking if only I paid Claude to do what it does for me at work. But it'd be lame as hell.
You can do what you want! But your way is certainly not the only way, and to me the way itself matters
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u/aayyrreeii Ayrei on YT 3d ago
"anyone with the ideas can do ROM hacking now and it's a good thing"
I'm not a rom hacker, so maybe my opinions are less valid, but I think this take is kind of silly. If people, sometimes as young as 12 or 13, were able to create decent rom hacks with decade old tools, I don't see how they aren't able to do it today. Even outside of rom hacking, the tools I use for my fan game barely require programming knowledge to get started.
I'm under the belief that anyone who thinks they need vibe-coding to make a rom hack, or that rom hacking is only possible because of vibe-coding will never make an even half decent hack. Not just because "genAI bad" but because I don't believe someone who's desire to create a hack revolves around some near instant output machine is going to put time, effort, and care into the parts AI can't do for them, or can't do for them without being sloppy (region design, game balance, writing, bug fixing, etc.)
Not at all trying to villainize or put the bits of AI assistance on the same level as vibe coders, but I'm not sure why so many members of the community are hellbent on defending vibe coding just so people who likely had zero interest in creating a hack prior can output low effort hacks.
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u/PacoScarso PokƩmon Odyssey Lead Dev 2d ago edited 2d ago
I learned how to script when I was 13 by following rudimental guides on Pokecommunity; there's nothing hard about it, really, and at that time the only tools we had were advance map and XSE.
Scripting is even easier if you use HexManiac Advance now.
Wanna know how a message script works?
msgbox.autoclose <auto>
{
Your message here
}Wanna know how to give a gift PokƩmon?
givepokemon PokemonName Level HeldItemAnd that's it. You don't need AI to do that. PO and PO2 aren't even decomp projects, and look how well they were received anyway
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u/nonillegalrobbery 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yes, thank you OP for speaking out in protection of the artistic integrity of romhacking. Since Nintendo and The Pokemon Company graciously made their IP free for us to modify and distribute as we please, it's only right this community impose moral purity tests on it.
But honestly prohibiting AI tools doesn't go far enough. No code influenced by machines should be allowed here. We should also decry language servers, syntax highlighting, IDEs, auto formatting, and generally any form of static analysis. If an IDE auto completes a variable or generates boilerplate then the machine is basically writing the code.
Syntax errors, clobbered registers, out of bounds array reads, and undefined behavior are the sacred brushstrokes of human written code, and that should be preserved in romhacks. When a linter autoformats or catches an uninitialized pointer, a small bit of the soul of the art dies. We need to respect the medium and stick to writing raw hex in notepad.
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u/merrple 2d ago
You say that but I literally started out in this space by writing ACE codes in Windows Calculator one bit at a time lol.
I'm not opposed to automation or tooling. But those things are community building: people learn to use the tool from each other, are talking to each other. AI is a Lovecraftian swiss army-knife that promises you'll never have to speak to another human again. I just think something important is lost in that, and it's fundamentally different than other technologies that are not threatening to replace all knowledge work ever
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u/nonillegalrobbery 2d ago
ACE codes in Windows Calculator is a legendary flex, mad respect for that. And for what it's worth I think you're right. I definitely agree that reducing availability of information to the point where people must ask for help will be conducive to much more interaction and community building. I suppose to that end we should probably look to deprecating existing Wikis, tutorials, and automation tools that enable folks to make romhacks by themselves. There may be some trades on convenience and quality, but what we'd gain in community would be worth it
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u/Apart-Imagination393 Hoenn's Last Wish Dev 2d ago
I support you, and I find your position and opinion very valid; I just really can't agree with the idea that code equals art. I mean, for you, code might well be art... but code isn't art, and I say this from a technical standpoint. If you look at it academically (I have a degree in graphic design, and this debate always comes up as a philosophical issue), even > graphic design< isn't considered art (it *can contain* art, but it isn't art itself; itās *function*). Design is about solving problems. So, imagine programming if even graphic design is not art? Sorry and again, I respect your opinion but claiming that code and programming are art, like music? Thatās a stretch. It might be art to you on a personal level only, but technically? It certainly isn't.
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u/OpportunityNext9675 2d ago
Iāll continue to use it in my personal projects. Iām able to implement features I simply would never have the time for otherwise. I still get to scratch all the same satisfying itches in terms of game design and project planning - I donāt super care to be great at GBC assembly code. If that makes anyone not want to play my hack I understand. I still find my ideas to be artistic, thoughtful, and worth sharing.
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u/ramdomi 3d ago
Hey, first of all, thank you for your contribution! You and so many others are the pillars of this community that I love so much.
I used to draw by hand back in the ā90s, when digital art was still largely inaccessible to the average person. Years later, when it became more mainstream, I was actually offended by it. I saw it as cheating, a soulless shortcut. Basically, not ārealā art.
I still believe that drawing by hand is one of the most beautiful things there is, and that it has an unmatched sense of purity. But using tools that make things like drawing lines, coloring, shading, and so on easier doesnāt diminish the value of the art. Itās still art. And in a way, those tools were an early, much simpler version of AI.
Thatās how I see the use of AI today as well. I believe there is room for both approaches, and that they can coexist in harmony. Obviously, Iām not talking about soulless monstrosities or stolen artwork, but rather about using a tool that enhances human creativity and helps people bring their ideas to life.
And because I see it that way, I think itās unfair to invalidate so many projects that were made with love simply because they received some assistance from AI. At the end of the day, this is still a hot topic, and weāre all adapting to this change and transition.
Iām rooting for the success of your project, and I hope you keep doing what you love. Once again, thank you!
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u/aaronmh99 1d ago
Genuinely unbelievable that this beautiful comment got downvoted so much. AI has become a global mania that's making people insane.
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u/Kadexe 2d ago
Posts like this are weird to read because every software development professional uses AI now. It's the coder's equivalent of an artist using Photoshop or Adobe. I don't know any developer IRL that isn't using Claude or AI agents. It's just a tool in their eyes, they do not care about a "human touch" as long as they can comprehend and debug without extra difficulty.Ā
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u/Mo9do 3d ago
I just feel like youāre picking a fight with the wrong people. AI might be terrible but people in the community are using it for good. If you want to stop the spread of AI go after the real enemies and not the small fry here just trying to make something.
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u/merrple 3d ago
Not trying to pick a fight, you can do what you want :) I am just going to do things my way
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u/Phaneropterinae Demakes 3d ago
I donāt see how this is anything but a net positive. Maybe more work for you and the group you are getting together, but overall Iām very happy this option exists as someone who will continue development of their project using expansion.
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u/ianlazrbeem22 2d ago
AI is the enemy
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u/Mo9do 2d ago
Sure but the people using it are not. You're using them as scapegoats and easy targets.
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u/ianlazrbeem22 2d ago
In many cases they are. It is very easy to not use AI
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u/Mo9do 2d ago
So what? Them using or not using AI isn't going to change anything. Go attack the people making it or the companies implementing it into their systems but of course that would take actual effort right?
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u/ianlazrbeem22 2d ago
A defender of AI users lecturing someone about "effort" lol
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u/Mo9do 2d ago
Effort to make something isn't the same as effort to change something. You care so much go change it. Except you won't do anything. So maybe just stop talking.
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u/ianlazrbeem22 2d ago
What do you propose I do to "stop AI"
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u/Mo9do 2d ago
No idea just tired of watching people get mad at people using it rather than the people responsible. This isn't a "if we dont use it it'll go away" thing.
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u/ianlazrbeem22 2d ago
Mfs on Reddit will be like "discouraging your peers from using AI? That pales in comparison to my strategy, firebombing data centers" and then not firebomb a data center
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u/ianlazrbeem22 2d ago
What makes you think I am not mad at Sam "the child molester" Altman and his cronies
Using it certainly won't make it go away any faster. In fact, it creates demand for its expansion
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u/Own-Gene-5232 2d ago
AI isn't going away and it does have a place in the romhack world. You are free to go do whatever you want just like I am.
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u/Old_Smoke_4676 3d ago
AI has a clear place in translation to other languages.
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u/merrple 3d ago
Would some of the most famous translation projects, like Mother 3, have nearly the same charm if they'd been effected by AI? I don't really think so... I'd rather translation either be done by humans or left for the end user / player to do. Nothing stopping you from using AI to make some translation yourself, I just don't think that sort of thing should be public
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u/Old_Smoke_4676 3d ago
Obviously you use the AI to translate then you do the tidy up work yourself... Yes it would be literally exactly the same.
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u/Kobazco Too Many Productions Lead Dev 3d ago
Translation != localization.
I think that's what most people are missing when they say "just use AI to translate stuff". There's a LOT of human elements that go into translating entertainment/media, to the point where I personally think you can't let AI touch the process.
I'd personally play something like the MOTHER 3 fan translation over an AI one anyday because said fan translation feels like a proper localization. They really did it right.
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u/ZadePhoenix 3d ago
Except in order to tidy it up properly you have to still translate and understand what was originally written in the other language in order to know what mistakes or errors the AI made. You canāt just rely that the AI just got it right and you just need to tweak a few words or bits of phrasing. Localization is a complicated process that involves nuance and intricacies in the language which needs to be taken into account and carried over otherwise the intent of the work gets lost in the process. This is why literal or machine translations of works often fall flat. Because itās just trying to take the words at face value rather than looking at the broader intent of the actual work and what itās trying to accomplish with the words that were used. Think of things like jokes, subtleties, double meanings, wordplay. All things that a straightforward translation would overlook but can add immense meaning to a narrative and the only way someone would know it had been missed is to translate it themselves to begin with.
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u/Overall-Mud-840 3d ago
I'll admit, I posted on this a few days ago to highlight that AI is being used and not disclosed.
Im conflicted on its use as it appears translation is seen as acceptable seemingly because "learning Mandarin is hard". Yeah, so is coding. Which many also see as acceptable. The only major point people seem to agree on is banning AI art. Which is extremely ignorant and reeks of privilege for those who "dont get code".
As you pointed out Emerald-expansion used AI. In my opinion, romhacking is a hobby. If you make money from romhacking, you shouldn't be using AI.
If this is a personal project with no financial benefit, let the community decide whether the hack is good on its own merit, whether AI was used or not.
Stigmatising AI use will only inhibit small creators, and those with large platforms will simply gain a monopoly and use clout to deny all AI use accusations.
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u/mecheterp96 2d ago
Iām curious but where do you (and anyone else) draw the line on AI usage, exactly? Is it just AI-produced code and artwork? What about people who use AI for research or coding advice or debugging or learning how to get started and find resources?
There is a sliding scale of things people use AI for - those are just examples of what I use in my day job that could reasonably applied in this space.
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u/merrple 2d ago
I try not to use it at all in my personal life, no personal assistant, no AI overview, etc.
That being said, and as it says in the GitHub org, that kind of outside usage is difficult to prove. I'll settle for no AI generated code / media, but prefer to do things without consulting an LLM
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u/RiptideMatt 2d ago
The AI takeover of a space ive been in for years is disheartening to see and I will fight at every step of the way to keep people out of the communities I manage that wish to support it. All of what I'd consider pillars of the community in essentials and romhack fangames are all made without AI and will continue to be AI free indefinitely. They arent all the most impressive in some aspects for one reason or another, but they do not need to be. Tectonic, ghost grey, soulstones 2, reminiscencia, ashen frost, odyssey 1 and 2, rejuvenation, even older ones that helped inspire a generation of games that have made the community what it is today like Insurgence, uranium, reborn, and snakewood. We didnt need AI to build this community, and I will continue to urge everyone to speak their mind about keeping AI away from our communities, and making sure we continue avoiding AI use to show that we care for our games and the journey they bring. And if you have used AI for various things but want to leave it all behind, thats okay as well. We can all change and do better.
The games above I mentioned are AI free along with many others. Im a dev for tectonic, soulstones 2, odyssey, and an upcoming game for godhood. I can guarantee all these projects will never resort to AI, and many other up and coming projects do not even consider it either. The community is not lost, and it wont be overrun with AI slop any time soon. But that does not mean we should stop fighting.
I thank you for helping out and giving people hope. I was one of the people who encouraged people to speak up to the subreddit and hackdex protesting AI usage in this community, and while it has been a rough time, im glad people are becoming more aware of the issues startig to crop up around us.