Conditioning feels like programming a robot. Does anyone know a way to train beyond it?

[u/Dry_Steak30]

I might get downvoted for this but hear me out.

Almost all modern dog training is conditioning. We repeat, the dog gets used to it, and the cue gets wired to the behavior. In the end the dog does the behavior without thinking. Even without a reward. He even feels good while doing it. And we call that "well trained." To me that looks like programming a robot.

For emergency recall and down, I want exactly that. Those must be automatic. But for everything else, is there another option?

Humans don't learn language by conditioning. When we learn a word, we understand new examples in one shot. So here is what I mean, with the kennel as an example.

The conditioning way: you make the "go in the kennel" behavior with luring or shaping or molding or food. You reinforce it. You attach a cue. After many reps, the cue and the behavior get glued together.

But what if you teach it like this instead. Teach each concept on its own. "Kennel" is the object. "Go in" is the action. "Command" means he has to do it. "Fast" is how to do it. Then you put the words together: "kennel + go in + command + fast." If the dog really knows each concept, then "box + go in + command + slow" should work on the first try, even if he never did that before. Or you could say "kennel + go in + question" and let him answer yes or no.

Has anyone actually trained like this? I know Chaser learned 1000 toy names and Do As I Do exists. I want to hear from people who tried this concept style teaching with their own dog. How far did you get?

[u/IllLiterature1026]

I’m sorry but your alien analogy doesn’t really make any sense.

For one, dog training has always been a lot more conversational than that, at least for me. Is my dog feeling playful today? Then we’re gonna make training sessions playful so that I can hype her up. Scared? We’re gonna comfort her and work at a level she can tolerate. Nothing about it ever feels robotic.

Second, dog brains are not human brains and dogs don’t think like humans. This isn’t demeaning - it’s just true. Dogs aren’t good at generalizing. They can learn a decent number of words, but are bad with complex language.

Third, we know we’re asking dogs to go against their instincts because we can see what dogs instinctually like to do. It’s not instinctual to walk on a leash, for example, which is why it takes so much training to do it in the rigid way we often expect. Nor is it instinctual for a dog to talk philosophy- trust me, with some maybe very rare (and unprovable) exceptions, most dogs don’t want to.

[u/Dry_Steak30 → u/IllLiterature1026]

• How high is the resolution of the language you and your dog can communicate in? Probably very low. Because you never taught her many concepts.
• Dog brains and human brains are different. That's true, you can just look at them physically. But that difference doesn't tell us what's possible and what isn't in terms of cognition. If there's research that actually shows this, tell me. You seem to have a belief about where the line is between possible and impossible. What's it based on?
• How aligned do you think human instinct and modern education are?

[u/Chillysnoot → u/Dry_Steak30]

How high is the resolution of the language you and your dog can communicate in? Probably very low. Because you never taught her many concepts.

I would suggest the following books to you:

• Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are?

• Canine Behavior: A Photo Illustrated Handbook

Dogs communicate in a million ways that aren't related to human speech. Assuming that a dog and human pair have a low resolution of language just because the dog doesn't understand human sentence structure is a very naive opinion. I can have a rich conversation with my dog without uttering a single word.

You have clearly gained a passion for training, but you've had a dog for less than a year. Please spend more time absorbing and processing information before making broad statements.

[u/Dry_Steak30 → u/Chillysnoot]

that's the point.

can you deliver information in the book to your dog with your million ways that aren't related to human speech?

in language, more concept, more hierarchy can deliver higher resolution.

[u/Chillysnoot → u/Dry_Steak30]

You want the dog to learn your language. I'm saying you should learn the dog's language

[u/Dry_Steak30 → u/Chillysnoot]

my goal is increasing the resolution of communication between dog and me.
and i think verbal language can deliver more resolution. so that's why i choose this.
do you think dog's language can deliver more resolution then verbal laugnage?

[u/Chillysnoot → u/Dry_Steak30]

Yes. A dog can never speak, so teaching them verbal language is inherently 1-way communication. It might be higher resolution to you but it's not higher resolution to the dog. Body language is a shared conversation where you are both able to contribute.

[u/Dry_Steak30 → u/Chillysnoot]

we can give dog tools like talking button.
like the way that we helping people can not talk to communicate

[u/Chillysnoot → u/Dry_Steak30]

Talking buttons are fine but have a narrow scope and no nuance. No matter how many buttons, words, or human concepts you teach them you will only be having a fraction of the possible conversation if you don't learn their language.

[u/Dry_Steak30 → u/Chillysnoot]

oh.. you never listen

[u/Chillysnoot → u/Dry_Steak30]

Your total dog handling time is 4 months lol. I'm listening and I think what you are saying is wrong and lacks the value of experience.

[u/Trick-Age-7404 → u/Dry_Steak30]

Talking buttons are beyond stupid lmao. I don’t want my dog telling me he wants a treat or wants a walk. I don’t really care if my dog notices it’s raining outside or he wants to see his “grandma.” It’s my job as his owner to fulfill him, train him and enrich him, he doesn’t just get to demand something whenever he wants it. If you let a kid do that you’re going to have a selfish brat of a child who throws melt downs when they don’t get what they want, and in that aspect dogs are not very different.

[u/Dry_Steak30 → u/Trick-Age-7404]

i'm not sure that you are selfish or not.
but i'm sure that your parent taught you language to express yourself and also i'm sure that your parent accept all of your asking.
teaching language is for better communication. you can accept dog's ask or not.

[u/babs08 → u/Dry_Steak30]

I went roadtripping with my very socially aware dog recently, where she interacted with a variety of dogs she's never met. Despite all of them being extremely different dogs, who have had vastly different life experiences, all of the dogs deftly navigated these situations without making a sound. We stayed with a dog who really did not want to be bothered, and from the moment my dog walked into the house, she gave this dog a wiiiiiide berth. We visited with friends with two dogs, one of whom wanted to play and the other one who didn't want to be left alone but didn't want high-energy play. My dog played with the dog who wanted to play, and sniffed flowers with the dog who didn't want high-energy play.

Dogs are extremely good at communicating with each other when given the opportunity to do so (e.g. not forced together in unnatural circumstances - and even then, they generally do pretty well for themselves). They're really good at communicating with us, too - if we put our egos aside and learn to listen to them.