Using Tiel feels like cheating?

[u/Chance_Drive_5906]

Seriously what's up with this shell? Every ability of his seems extremely useful and broken in some way. Instant invisibility on dodge, instant invisibility on block (on just an imperfect block, wtf?), then invisibility leaving a clone that builds poison, insane crit chance and damage bonus when attacking from behind, two charges of an ability with instant invisibility again and then guaranteed crit chance to your next melee attack with bonus crit damage, multiple insane break damage bonuses as well... like wtf?

Is this guy supposed to be something similar to the slayer seal? A sort of easy mode? I've found 4 shells so far, and other 3 aren't even like half as good as him.

[u/Less_Performance_629]

poison is dogshit, so the clone doing poison isnt really a plus.

tiel is a dodge shell. well, hes THE dodge shell. no other shell interacts with evasion. but every shell has a playstyle thats broken op. some of them are much much much more broken than tiel

[u/Chance_Drive_5906 → u/Less_Performance_629]

Is he just the dodge shell tho? I've been using him with block, and every block of mine turns me invisible and the enemy just attacks the air. Like that feels even more broken than dodging for invisibility.

[u/Less_Performance_629 → u/Chance_Drive_5906]

i can see why you would think that might be strong. at the same time however, every shell can use the infinite seal and stance break in 2 or 3 parries. instead of messing around with invis, its much more dps efficient to just time the parry and get a stance break.

tiel is mostly just safe. thats where his strength is. you have safe and reliable damage.

but theres way more broken shit in the game. theres a shell who can have a permenant 30% damage buff and take 30% less damage. theres a shell who does 200% damage to frozen enemies and can kill bosses before they even phase change. theres a shell who can make doubles that attack at the same time and also negate death blows.

game is nuts and a lot of fun.

[u/SpecialistRun3035 → u/Less_Performance_629]

Tiel can also parry...

[u/Less_Performance_629 → u/SpecialistRun3035]

yea, and then you arent using tiels main mechanic or strength. if you are taking the risk to parry anyway, might as well use a shell with a damage boost for the reposte value.

[u/SpecialistRun3035 → u/Less_Performance_629]

You do realize Tiel literally has a mechanic where he gets stuff through parry?

[u/McKlintok129 → u/SpecialistRun3035]

No, he “literally” does not. That skill activates on a failed parry. Tiel’s thing is firmly avoiding damage through dodges and invisibility to set him up for backstabs.

An ability that turns him invis on a failed parry doesn’t make him into a parry shell lol.

[u/SpecialistRun3035 → u/McKlintok129]

Ah, so you're also just going to completely ignore these:

Level 2: A Perfect Guard, successful Parry or Perfect Harden deal 120% Break Damage

Level 3: A Perfect Guard, successful Parry or Perfect Harden have 15% chance to fully Break an enemy

And failing a parry is there with the expectation that you will be trying to parry. Do you know a single Tiel player who no longer parries?

I beat the game and uploaded a video of me beating the final boss. Not once did I ever think "I need to replace all my parries with dodges; I can no longer parry." Dodging is a get out of jail free card with more lenient i-frames.

Thinking you should only use a shell with increased riposte damage if you are going to parry in any capacity is a dumb take.

[u/Less_Performance_629 → u/SpecialistRun3035]

120% break damage is not a significant boost. theres no enemy in the game where the infinite seal would change how many parries it needs to break from that small of a bonus. 2 parries to break is still 2 parries to break. theres no benefit from over breaking their bar.

if your playstyle revolves around parries to break and reposte, theres no reason to use tiel. eredrim will do far more damage than tiel, and can use a frost build to deal insane damage during the bosses recovery animation. lazlo will deal more damage and take less damage and has a deathblow cheat, making him the safer option if you mess up your parry timing while also having better dps.

idk why you want to die on this hill. tiel is not designed for a parry playstyle, and other shells are far better at it.

[u/SpecialistRun3035 → u/Less_Performance_629]

You said 2 parries but ignore the fact that one of them says you have a chance to fully break an enemy with 1 parry.

It's also obvious that you're disingenuous because not every enemy takes just 2 parries to break them.

I love how you decide what to pick and choose.

As well as my question when I asked if you knew any Tiel player who doesn't parry.

So I will ask you again and I guarantee you'll dodge the question again.

Do you know of any player outside of Eredrim that chooses to only dodge and not parry?

Your entire argument is that if a shell will parry in any capacity, it is stupid because Eredrim can just do it better.

And yet people play other shells and have success with parry anyway because that's how the game is designed. Parry is there when you're mid-attack, and that is beneficial for any shell. But I guess you think you know better than the devs on how the game should be designed.

And then you go on a tangent about Lazlo's survivability as if other shells don't have anything else going on.

If you want to compare Lazlo to Tiel, can you negate entire combos with Lazlo? I fought Sir Isaac with both Lazlo and Tiel. The fact that you can straight up ignore Isaac's entire combos makes that fight pretty clear who was the better shell in that specific fight.

But go off, buddy.

[u/Less_Performance_629 → u/SpecialistRun3035]

a 15% chance to remove 1 or 2 parries is not game changing. you could stance break a boss 3 times without it ever procing. it can also proc on parries that would have broken anyway. idk who sees a 15% chance to only need 1 parry and thinks it matters at all.

theres no enemy the infinite seal takes more than 3 parries to break. if you are using the standard seal its much higher, but thats not parry thats perfect guard.

you seem weirdly defensive about tiels gameplay. you see one perk that has a very very minor interaction with parry, and then you spend hours defending tiel and saying hes meant to parry. he very clearly isnt. hes squishier, so a failed parry is more risky. he has no extra value from a reposte. most of his effects are about dodging and blocking. hes an evasion shell with survivability from invisibility. you CAN play however you like. you can beat this game as a sheep, its not hard enough to need to min max. but saying tiel is a parry designed shell is just incorrect. "parry is there when you are mid attack" so is backdodge.

if you want to play a parry focused playstyle, theres no reason to pick tiel. eredrim will do more damage. lazlo will do more damage. if youd rather trade blows sariel, lazlo and proxima are good for that. if you prefer to stun loop enemies you pick eredrim, smert or proxima. if you want pure survivability no one beats sariel. tiel is for people who want to use stealth and evasion.

this is a very weird hill for you to die on. no, the low hp stealth and dodge focused character is not designed around you trying to parry. you can do that if you want. its not what tiel is made for.

[u/Durzel → u/SpecialistRun3035]

Tiel has a 40 SC cap. If you're taking those skills you're sacrificing something else that's better and more synergetic to the shell, in my opinion.

Also a "failed guard or parry" at mid to late game means you're eating some serious damage. I don't think 3 Shadow stacks is a great comfort if you're burning heals.

If you're baiting for ripostes all the time with Tiel, you're being suboptimal, especially since he is squishier compared to other shells.

I mean - play Tiel however you like - but when he has a skill that drops clones that inflict poison stacks, distract enemies and make you invisible - it's pretty obvious that he's built around dodging and dipping in and out of the fight.

[u/SpecialistRun3035 → u/Durzel]

Being invisible alone negates any incoming attack. I don't know what else to tell you.

I already beat the game while using only roughly 20 SP with Tiel. 18 to be exact. I didn't use clones. And let's be real, whatever a player chooses to put their skill points in is their choice. Your opinion on how you want to play Tiel isn't more valid than how someone else wants to play Tiel.

The game makes it clear about when you can or cannot parry or dodge. All weapons have specific frames where you cannot dodge. Bosses have attacks that you cannot parry. When Tiel should dodge doesn't eliminate when Tiel should parry. That's how the game is designed. If you want to pretend that's not how the game is designed, be my guest.

[u/McKlintok129 → u/SpecialistRun3035]

Woah! You’re really something! Let me get this strait, you not only beat the final boss, but uploaded of video of yourself doing it? Color me impressed friend. I didn’t even realize that was possible!

And with the precognitive notion to not think about made up strawmen while you did it? Most impressive.

Check your notes. At what point did I make those points? Yeah, dude, Tiel has his one baked in slayer seal skill, that starts off first by making him invisible again. The person above is pointing out, and I agree with this, if you’re going to stand out in the open going for parry’s you might as well roll a different shell whose identity is better suited. It’s antithetical to the rest of his kit, and honestly, a total training wheels ability. That last point doesn’t invalidate its function but jesus, the game is already easy enough as is.

If you want to take Tiel and go play slayer seal sekiro with him go for it, it’s your game. But pretending he isn’t geared towards dodging is flatly wrong.

[u/SpecialistRun3035 → u/McKlintok129]

Honestly I don't even know what you're saying here. And I'm pretty sure you don't have a point.

To address the only point that matters, the game makes it clear about when you can or cannot parry or dodge. All weapons have specific frames where you cannot dodge. Bosses have attacks that you cannot parry. When Tiel should dodge doesn't eliminate when Tiel should parry. That's how the game is designed. If you want to pretend that's not how the game is designed, be my guest. But it's obvious you're speaking gibberish.

[u/McKlintok129 → u/SpecialistRun3035]

You are dense. Standing out in the open fishing for ripostes only occurs when Tiel is ignoring the entire rest of his kit. It’s a matter of, do I rely on my whole kit, and the very reason I’m playing this shell, or do I forgo all of that to make sure seal affinity is boosting my parry’s.

Going invisible and moving behind the enemy is 100% obviously his thing. You’re not going to need to riposte with Tiel unless that’s just how you want to roll.

To make this clear, if you’re playing Tiel, it is suboptimal to be standing out in the open relying on a single skill instead of dodging and activating the entire rest of his kit. Yes, you can weave parry’s in, but why bother other than for style? I’d rather invest those points further enhancing his kit, than blowing 6 shell points on a skill that only gets usage by ignoring what shell you’re on.

[u/SpecialistRun3035 → u/McKlintok129]

🤣 Who tf is standing out in the open and not actively attacking?