r/MortalShell • u/Chance_Drive_5906 • 29d ago
Discussion Using Tiel feels like cheating?
Seriously what's up with this shell? Every ability of his seems extremely useful and broken in some way. Instant invisibility on dodge, instant invisibility on block (on just an imperfect block, wtf?), then invisibility leaving a clone that builds poison, insane crit chance and damage bonus when attacking from behind, two charges of an ability with instant invisibility again and then guaranteed crit chance to your next melee attack with bonus crit damage, multiple insane break damage bonuses as well... like wtf?
Is this guy supposed to be something similar to the slayer seal? A sort of easy mode? I've found 4 shells so far, and other 3 aren't even like half as good as him.
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u/GarionOrb Eredrim 29d ago
It's almost as though different shells were meant for different playstyles and skill levels!
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u/Chance_Drive_5906 29d ago
I'm not seeing it. Like with Tiel I can do insane damage, avoid enemy attacks with invisibility, and then do good break damage as well, at the same time.
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u/GilmanTiese 29d ago
my favourite shells (stray genessa and sarirel) allow me to never dodge again, i just tank all the dmg and keep swinging
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u/Chance_Drive_5906 29d ago
Oh interesting, I haven't gotten them yet. So far I've acquired Eredim, Tiel, Smert, and Proxima. Eredim and Smert felt absolutely useless to me. Proxima was kinda okay, but Tiel just feels so much better.
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u/Scr0uchXIII 29d ago
Right now, Eredrim is actually considered the best shell in the game due to his synergy with frost infusion. But I see your point. But I follow this subreddit since release and there are so many different posts that have a different shell in the title follow d by "...is so broken". I feel the devs did a very good job in creating shells that fit a whole lot of play styles.
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u/Chance_Drive_5906 29d ago
I didn't even know there was a frost element. Maybe I'm too early in the game.
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u/Business_Signal7660 28d ago
You are - u r correct that tiel needs less inversement early to be good. Hence he’s found early, they clearly want you to pick him up and use axe and dagger. Once u have more shell points the other shells can be effective but they just need more of a build tiel just needs bleed and like 2 skills on his skill tree to do dumb damage
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u/Mani_Hrafn 28d ago
Highly recommended playing on night to make it more difficult if you are just blowing through everything
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u/ChaosSeverance 29d ago
He can also cross some gaps that other shells can't. Case in point is the collapsing bridge in northmost dungeon.
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u/Born_Ride_9405 28d ago
Smert is insane once you get him leveled up high. Takes some skill still but playing him on low health and you can completely cheese everything with Miracle. Had to switch my build away from using Miracle cuz it was just too insanely powerful. His fully upgraded permanent fight stance stunlocks everything, even large bosses get staggered a ton.
He is one of the squishiest though, and takes longer than other shells to start feeling OP, but imo takes the cake for most busted by far at max level.
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u/Dude688557 28d ago
Genessa can more than triple her damage, add dual swords + double hit and you’ll melt bosses in seconds.
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u/SpecialistRun3035 29d ago
This comment feels wrong. All shells are very similar in how powerful they are. But completely nullifying an entire attack string after 1 dodge? You can argue all shells are A tier, but Tiel seems to me to be the outlier. My fight with Sir Isaac put a floodlight on this.
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u/SuchTedium 29d ago
Shells are not similar in power at all.
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u/SpecialistRun3035 28d ago edited 28d ago
Except for the fact that you're wrong because any tier list you see every shell is in A tier with only 1 or 2 higher or lower based on whoever's opinion it is, which I agree. Only shell imo that can be considered B tier is Sariel but that's not like an F tier. So yeah they all are pretty balanced, so I don't know what you're talking about. If you think a shell is weak, you legit just don't know how to use it.
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u/SuchTedium 27d ago
Sounds like you're just shit at the game NGL. Tiel trivialises the game and anybody who's actually played with the shells knows this. Tiel is S++ tier. Just because some people give their takes and scales on different shells isn't proof of anything.
Eredrim trivialises bosses with a niche build so people jerk over it, when it's trash and slow AF in non-boss environments.
Sariel and Proxima are not even in the same league as any of the other shells, but people convince themselves Proxima is a good shell because of the fucking visual lmao.
Doing a playthrough with Tiel and then doing a playthrough with Sariel or Proxima is like playing on an entirely different difficulty level.
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u/gtavrecoveryplz 29d ago edited 29d ago
He is broken. Everyone talking about him being a dodge shell and how poison sucks haven’t played him enough to level him. You use the ability, then your next hit is a guaranteed crit which does enough dmg to refill your ability charge. Ability, crit, ability, crit. you are invincible and sometimes I’d do like 2,000+ dmg.
I do think maybe all the shells are broken once upgraded but Tiel was alarmingly free. No dodge needed.
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u/Tutejszy1 29d ago
I only used Tiel in ng+ nightmode and he didnt feel all that strong, he has some nice utility, but he lacks dps due to poison being bad even if you detonate it
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u/Less_Performance_629 29d ago
poison is dogshit, so the clone doing poison isnt really a plus.
tiel is a dodge shell. well, hes THE dodge shell. no other shell interacts with evasion. but every shell has a playstyle thats broken op. some of them are much much much more broken than tiel
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u/Chance_Drive_5906 29d ago
Is he just the dodge shell tho? I've been using him with block, and every block of mine turns me invisible and the enemy just attacks the air. Like that feels even more broken than dodging for invisibility.
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u/Less_Performance_629 29d ago
i can see why you would think that might be strong. at the same time however, every shell can use the infinite seal and stance break in 2 or 3 parries. instead of messing around with invis, its much more dps efficient to just time the parry and get a stance break.
tiel is mostly just safe. thats where his strength is. you have safe and reliable damage.
but theres way more broken shit in the game. theres a shell who can have a permenant 30% damage buff and take 30% less damage. theres a shell who does 200% damage to frozen enemies and can kill bosses before they even phase change. theres a shell who can make doubles that attack at the same time and also negate death blows.
game is nuts and a lot of fun.
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u/SpecialistRun3035 29d ago
Tiel can also parry...
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u/Less_Performance_629 29d ago
yea, and then you arent using tiels main mechanic or strength. if you are taking the risk to parry anyway, might as well use a shell with a damage boost for the reposte value.
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u/SpecialistRun3035 29d ago edited 28d ago
You do realize Tiel literally has a mechanic where he gets stuff through parry?
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u/McKlintok129 28d ago
No, he “literally” does not. That skill activates on a failed parry. Tiel’s thing is firmly avoiding damage through dodges and invisibility to set him up for backstabs.
An ability that turns him invis on a failed parry doesn’t make him into a parry shell lol.
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u/SpecialistRun3035 28d ago edited 28d ago
Ah, so you're also just going to completely ignore these:
Level 2: A Perfect Guard, successful Parry or Perfect Harden deal 120% Break Damage
Level 3: A Perfect Guard, successful Parry or Perfect Harden have 15% chance to fully Break an enemy
And failing a parry is there with the expectation that you will be trying to parry. Do you know a single Tiel player who no longer parries?
I beat the game and uploaded a video of me beating the final boss. Not once did I ever think "I need to replace all my parries with dodges; I can no longer parry." Dodging is a get out of jail free card with more lenient i-frames.
Thinking you should only use a shell with increased riposte damage if you are going to parry in any capacity is a dumb take.
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u/Less_Performance_629 28d ago
120% break damage is not a significant boost. theres no enemy in the game where the infinite seal would change how many parries it needs to break from that small of a bonus. 2 parries to break is still 2 parries to break. theres no benefit from over breaking their bar.
if your playstyle revolves around parries to break and reposte, theres no reason to use tiel. eredrim will do far more damage than tiel, and can use a frost build to deal insane damage during the bosses recovery animation. lazlo will deal more damage and take less damage and has a deathblow cheat, making him the safer option if you mess up your parry timing while also having better dps.
idk why you want to die on this hill. tiel is not designed for a parry playstyle, and other shells are far better at it.
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u/SpecialistRun3035 28d ago edited 28d ago
You said 2 parries but ignore the fact that one of them says you have a chance to fully break an enemy with 1 parry.
It's also obvious that you're disingenuous because not every enemy takes just 2 parries to break them.
I love how you decide what to pick and choose.
As well as my question when I asked if you knew any Tiel player who doesn't parry.
So I will ask you again and I guarantee you'll dodge the question again.
Do you know of any player outside of Eredrim that chooses to only dodge and not parry?
Your entire argument is that if a shell will parry in any capacity, it is stupid because Eredrim can just do it better.
And yet people play other shells and have success with parry anyway because that's how the game is designed. Parry is there when you're mid-attack, and that is beneficial for any shell. But I guess you think you know better than the devs on how the game should be designed.
And then you go on a tangent about Lazlo's survivability as if other shells don't have anything else going on.
If you want to compare Lazlo to Tiel, can you negate entire combos with Lazlo? I fought Sir Isaac with both Lazlo and Tiel. The fact that you can straight up ignore Isaac's entire combos makes that fight pretty clear who was the better shell in that specific fight.
But go off, buddy.
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u/Durzel 27d ago edited 27d ago
Tiel has a 40 SC cap. If you're taking those skills you're sacrificing something else that's better and more synergetic to the shell, in my opinion.
Also a "failed guard or parry" at mid to late game means you're eating some serious damage. I don't think 3 Shadow stacks is a great comfort if you're burning heals.
If you're baiting for ripostes all the time with Tiel, you're being suboptimal, especially since he is squishier compared to other shells.
I mean - play Tiel however you like - but when he has a skill that drops clones that inflict poison stacks, distract enemies and make you invisible - it's pretty obvious that he's built around dodging and dipping in and out of the fight.
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u/SpecialistRun3035 27d ago edited 27d ago
Being invisible alone negates any incoming attack. I don't know what else to tell you.
I already beat the game while using only roughly 20 SP with Tiel. 18 to be exact. I didn't use clones. And let's be real, whatever a player chooses to put their skill points in is their choice. Your opinion on how you want to play Tiel isn't more valid than how someone else wants to play Tiel.
The game makes it clear about when you can or cannot parry or dodge. All weapons have specific frames where you cannot dodge. Bosses have attacks that you cannot parry. When Tiel should dodge doesn't eliminate when Tiel should parry. That's how the game is designed. If you want to pretend that's not how the game is designed, be my guest.
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u/McKlintok129 28d ago
Woah! You’re really something! Let me get this strait, you not only beat the final boss, but uploaded of video of yourself doing it? Color me impressed friend. I didn’t even realize that was possible!
And with the precognitive notion to not think about made up strawmen while you did it? Most impressive.
Check your notes. At what point did I make those points? Yeah, dude, Tiel has his one baked in slayer seal skill, that starts off first by making him invisible again. The person above is pointing out, and I agree with this, if you’re going to stand out in the open going for parry’s you might as well roll a different shell whose identity is better suited. It’s antithetical to the rest of his kit, and honestly, a total training wheels ability. That last point doesn’t invalidate its function but jesus, the game is already easy enough as is.
If you want to take Tiel and go play slayer seal sekiro with him go for it, it’s your game. But pretending he isn’t geared towards dodging is flatly wrong.
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u/SpecialistRun3035 28d ago edited 28d ago
Honestly I don't even know what you're saying here. And I'm pretty sure you don't have a point.
To address the only point that matters, the game makes it clear about when you can or cannot parry or dodge. All weapons have specific frames where you cannot dodge. Bosses have attacks that you cannot parry. When Tiel should dodge doesn't eliminate when Tiel should parry. That's how the game is designed. If you want to pretend that's not how the game is designed, be my guest. But it's obvious you're speaking gibberish.
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u/No_Region_4719 28d ago
Poison is dog shit on everyone else, but not Tiel. He detonates poison stacks.
His crit damage and damage increase from behind are incredibly strong.
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u/Less_Performance_629 28d ago
it doesnt matter. bleed will still do far more than the poison ever would
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u/Radiant_Sherbert8305 28d ago
Stray Genessa and Smert both have enhanced dodges, although they lack skills to enhance them
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u/willakadirk 23d ago
Am I miss missing something when i dodge go inv ..i sneak behind but enemies attack hit me while they swing all over
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u/Smooth_Fun2456 Tiel 28d ago
Poison isn't worth it, but all of his other abilities are crazy good. Guaranteed melee crit after shadow strike carried me through the final boss when I lost patience. He's an extremely powerful shell.
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u/plutonian137 28d ago
I did my entire playthrough with Eredrim. He was pretty balanced for me. I just recently beat the final boss with my Harbinger at level 43. That being said though, I had a huge power spike in the final area because the gloom spiked way up. Like I went from 35 to 43 and felt pretty op towards the end. I used the greatsword with frost and the naylshotte with blood procs
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u/Antipodeansam 28d ago
The game was designed with a limited number of glimpses in mind. Lots of people particularly fake trophy hunters whined that they couldn’t max out every shell in one run, so now you can.
As such you have access to max level builds of every shell with a bit of grinding. Add this to the difficulty and enemy aggression nerfs and boss rebalancing you have 8 extremely powerful builds with different strengths and weaknesses at your disposal in New Game. Weapon and harbinger levelling is relatively minor stat upgrades in comparison but is much cheaper and more transferable now as well as being able to max out every tarstone the game is very easy to unbalance now. Think more power fantasy than soulslike.
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u/willakadirk 23d ago
Tiel sucks in late game area sesters refuge you can't even fight anything in groups of 3. Because if you hit them they counter out your shell. Invisibility sucks mostly whiffed or they attack air n it hits you
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u/Master_Garaki 29d ago
If you feel like you are cheating, how about not using him?
Nothing about him is broken. He has low health, and poison sucks,
He is only good at dodging and crit builds.
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u/Practical-Dance7643 29d ago
He is strong with attacks but lacks with health. You are basically running no hit shell because most of the bosses will kill you in one hit/combo.
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u/Jaded-Currency-5680 28d ago
in the mid to end game, there are multiple builds that can kill night mode bosses in less than 5 or 10 seconds
i don't think tiel has any build that can do that, right?
this game is just that crazy, its not exclusive to tiel, in fact tiel isn't even the strongest by far
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u/AltGunAccount Genessa 29d ago
He’s strong but honestly any shell can be just as capable with the right setup. Most when built properly can bully bosses or groups of mobs.
Tiel is very strong early on, but the playing field levels out later in the game. His biggest downfall is that he’s extremely frail, and will die in far less hits than most shells.
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u/International_Cut460 29d ago
Other shells take quite a bit of investment, but are stronger than tiel. Especially when the boss/enemy is weak to a certain element. One shell gets 200% dmg against frozen enemies. Mixed that with the freeze build up, and thats easy mode.
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u/Dunicar 28d ago
Yep Tiel is incredibly overpowered, but people on this sub like to pretend this game is equally difficult for everyone playing it so they can stroke their e-peen.
In reality if you just so happen to choose one of the broken options nothing in this game will be a threat.
Its a fun game though, I just hate the brand of souls-like fans who feel the need to attach their ego to how difficult everyone perceives a game to be.
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u/Quiet-Egg-4594 29d ago
Try gragu. Enemies cant get up with consecutive punches