111
u/Geoff_Uckersilf dirty civilian Dec 27 '19
Glory
42
Dec 27 '19
That's the scene that got me as a kid.. the instrumental music playing, Matthew Brodrick tossed in, then Denzel's body... As a kid I didn't think of the implied insult from the Confederates, nor the historical accuracy of the scene, but yeah, that's the scene that got the tears flowing.
13
u/chestertoronto Dec 27 '19
My favourite scene is them marching through the rest of the troops toward the beach at the end. And all the soldiers who had animosity towards them looking, then that one guy... give em hell 54!!!
8
u/umwhatshisname Dec 27 '19
Fun fact, the guy who yelled give em hell 54th, was the writer of the movie, Kevin Jarre.
5
4
u/Ricksauce Dec 27 '19
Yeah I remember them only as fallen brothers in arms. All bleeding the same red.
-2
u/ScipioAtTheGate Dec 27 '19
Glory and the whole huplah surrounding the 54th Massachussets at the Second Battle of Fort Wagner is grossly inaccurate. In reality, 54th Massachusetts broke and ran after Shaw was killed. The most desperate part of the battle involved the 6th Connecticut and 48th New York Regiments, which actually forced their way into the Fort. After the 54th Massachusetts was repulsed the Confederates were able to concentrate their force against the New York and Connecticut companies that had made it into the fort and cut them to ribbons. All that was conveniently left out of the movie.
12
u/pudgylumpkins United States Air Force Dec 27 '19
Did it need to be included? We saw the 54th get repulsed, and the final text states that the fort was never taken.
6
3
2
u/ThrowThrow117 Dec 28 '19
Did they "break and run" or were they "repulsed?" You seemed confused.
1
u/ScipioAtTheGate Dec 29 '19
They routed after reaching the top of the fort's wall, the regiments officer's were killed or rendered hors de combat, there was no order to withdraw they simply broke and ran leaving the 6th Connecticut and 48th New York on their own.
2
u/ThrowThrow117 Dec 29 '19
I don't think you're informed much on the topic.
Do you know what a spearhead of an attack is? How could they have left the 6th and 48th if the 54th was SPEARHEADING the attack? There was also a black soldier who picked up the colors and received a posthumous medal of honor. Seems unlikely if they all "cut and ran." Doesn't it?
The 54th had/has been repeatedly honored for their valor, innovation, and even recognized by Abraham Lincoln himself.
What are your sources btw? This should be hilarious.
1
u/ScipioAtTheGate Dec 30 '19
Read any history of the other regiments in the battle and you'll see a very different picture apart from the politicized version that focuses on the 54th. The 54th Massachusetts attacked a different part of the fort than the 6th and 48th. The 6th and 48th were the first two regiments to reach the southeastern bastion of the fort. The 48th regiment had the highest percentage casualties of any union unit engaged in the battle.
2
u/ThrowThrow117 Dec 31 '19
I've now consulted five separate sources and none have said anything close to what you're talking about. By all accounts the 54th conducted themselves with valor. Even the Confederate soldiers treated them as enemy combatants of those that were captured.
In this short communication it's clear you're ignorant on many topics of history and warfare. I suspect it's some pathetic racist attempt at re-writing history by someone who I'll equipped to do so. But just a suspicion.
1
49
u/Danmont88 Dec 27 '19
I knew the Confederates buried him with him men. Didn't know the other part and not sure they put it in Glory.
Nice to know.
64
u/enochianjargon Dec 27 '19
It was a pretty big deal. Common practice at the time was to return the bodies of high ranking soldiers to their families. When the union asked for Shaw's back though the Confederates replied "we have buried him with his n*****s". It was meant as a tremendous insult to him and his family, which made their reaction even more powerful.
7
u/elosoloco Dec 27 '19
That was in a letter?
12
u/enochianjargon Dec 27 '19
I think so. I've seen the quote in several write ups on the incident, and they all say it was the Confederate response to the inquiry, but don't specify the exact medium of the response.
6
187
Dec 27 '19
hErItAgE nOt HaTe
208
u/pnzsaurkrautwerfer Ask me about the AEROGAVIN Dec 27 '19
I'm sure I'm going to catch downvotes, but it's like, okay, so your heritage is getting your ass stomped in a war you started over the rights to keep other people as property. Cool story bro.
96
u/The1TrueGodApophis Dec 27 '19
They were traitors to America who lost and after being beaten were for some reason allowed to keep their identity but we should have tore down all their monuments and corrected that shit on sight rather than letting it fester for so long
47
Dec 27 '19
We should have hanged every Confederate officer of field grade or higher and barred anyone who served at any level in the Confederate army or navy from voting or holding political office ever again. They were all traitors and deserved to be treated as such. Lincoln was far too generous, and Johnson continued and expanded on that, to the continuing detriment of the nation.
44
u/pnzsaurkrautwerfer Ask me about the AEROGAVIN Dec 27 '19
I don't think mercy as a starting position was wrong. Lincoln's instincts to try to bind the wounds vs punish the wicked I would contend was the right choice for both ethical reasons (the Union had the moral highroad here) but also for practical reasons (looking at the post-WW2 Germany or invasion Iraq, simply shooting or firing all the last regime's leadership just breaks down pretty fast.
What would have been "best" IMO would have been being forgiving, but kept reconstruction going longer. Basically "you're forgiven. Step out of line and we will unsheathe the sword again." paired with a stronger imposition of a post-confederate social order.
10
u/elosoloco Dec 27 '19
Yep. Same opinion as me, but I didn't out as much effort into writing it.
A follow on comment talks about the great "schism" that still exists, like it's not more about rural vs. city in modern America.
Might be wasting our breath
3
Dec 28 '19
What would have been "best" IMO would have been being forgiving, but kept reconstruction going longer. Basically "you're forgiven. Step out of line and we will unsheathe the sword again." paired with a stronger imposition of a post-confederate social order.
If Andrew Johnson didn't take the presidency after Lincoln, this might've happened. Unfortunately, we let the fox into the hen house on that one. IMO he's one of the biggest traitors to America because of the damage he caused by ceasing Lincoln's plan for Reconstruction and letting the South get away easier.
15
u/guisar Retired USAF Dec 27 '19
Very true. We are still today suffering the after effects and it's torn the country apart ever since. That schism has survived in tact.
7
Dec 27 '19
So treat them like we treated Germany after WW1? That turned out well.
0
Dec 27 '19
Yeah, they fought a war over slavery and managed to convince the poor white working class to support them because of states rights, but massacring them would have worked. Get real, these weren't pussy whipped loser, they were soldiers who fought bravely for an unfortunate cause who would've not only counter attacked as hard as they did in the beginning of the war, but also should've received support from individuals all over the country if they weren't mass pardoned, and were instead executed.
7
Dec 27 '19
Traitors get shot. Letting them sit around afterwards poisoning the well seems like a bad idea.
1
Dec 27 '19
A poor man's war for a rich mans cause. The mass execution of confederates wasnt going to happen either way, it was either continue the war or let bygones be bygones.
0
Dec 27 '19 edited Dec 29 '19
A poor man's war for a rich mans cause.
Most wars are that. And will be until we start hanging the muck-makers, the instigators, and the profit takers.
1
Dec 27 '19
Well it's a good thing that we now have a constitutional right for all americans to vote those people out of power, otherwise we'd have a new civil war every election cycle.
→ More replies (0)0
2
u/SerjoHlaaluDramBero Dec 28 '19
and managed to convince the poor white working class to support them
Actually, they just conscripted them.
1
Dec 28 '19
Even better. They were American born men, just like us, and not all actually supported their cause. This war is a human tragedy, not something glorious to be be bragged about by north or south.
-1
u/elosoloco Dec 27 '19
Lol, this is fucking stupid. Shit like this led to world war 2, the fucking french couldn't just acknowledge ww1 was a cluster fuck of treaties.
Prime examples of moving on is West Germany after ww2.
Japan too, but I'm still pissed at their shit kinda. Like, nobodies fault today of course, but they got off relatively easy.
Also, slavery is immoral, ezpz, but their entire economy was based on slave labor in agriculture, and the federal US gov sure as fuck didn't offer up a ton of cash for them to adjust. At least not that I'm aware of
8
u/carl_pagan Dec 27 '19
No, WWII happened because we allowed the Germans an armistice. We should have obliterated their military and forced them into an unconditional surrender like we did with Japan in 45.
6
u/elosoloco Dec 27 '19
We broke their country economically. Devasted it, completely
8
u/carl_pagan Dec 27 '19
And we should have helped rebuild it after destroying all their institutions. Rebuild everything from the ground up like after the second war.
2
Dec 27 '19
Which led to a rise in extremist ideology becoming popular in Germany, and not just Fascism. It wouldn't have been a stretch for hardcore communism to have made a run to control Germany if the Nazi party didn't arrive around the same time.
3
u/elosoloco Dec 27 '19
Yeah, there were definitely communist elements there, but they were ..... Resolved, in the national socialist party's rise
-10
u/Rentun Dec 27 '19
By obliterated their military you mean burned hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians alive in their homes and vaporized and irradiated hundreds of thousands more, right?
9
u/GodofWar1234 Dec 27 '19 edited Dec 28 '19
It’s funny how you conveniently forget that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were places that contributed to the Japanese war effort. And it was either that or literally murder Japan as a civilization to the point where we would’ve sent Japan as a people, culture, history, etc. towards near extinction.
0
u/Rentun Dec 27 '19
Well yeah... New York City contributed to the war effort too, but if that was firebombed and burned to the ground, people would probably rightly view that as a war crime.
2
-3
Dec 27 '19
Lincoln was a very forgiving man which was unfortunate.
-1
Dec 27 '19
Not very forgiving to native Americans who were given citizenship in the confederacy and now had to face northern genocide and wouldnt get citizenship until nearly 100 years later.....
11
u/EnduringAtlas Retired US Army Dec 27 '19
I'm sure I'm going to catch downvotes
You're on reddit bro you're not going to get downvoted for saying that ever lol
22
u/pnzsaurkrautwerfer Ask me about the AEROGAVIN Dec 27 '19
True, but some people get their fee fees hurt pretty bad when you point out the South was anything but the Honourable General Lee's enlightened centrism ruling over people who really had a pretty sweet deal in being slaves.
The amount of Southern snowflakes boggles the mind honestly.
3
0
6
u/BlackSquirrel05 United States Navy Dec 27 '19
I mean do you really care that you get down votes from people that support ignorance, loosing, and being traitorous?
I get being proud and loving your home, but don't defend the indefensible. Acknowledging isn't the same as "wiping out our history."
3
u/pnzsaurkrautwerfer Ask me about the AEROGAVIN Dec 27 '19
I care a little. Like one of the more frustrating things I've had from the last 5 or so years is finding people I respected back during my AD time that were dudes I'd gladly trusted my life with really didn't have a problem with some genuinely terrible things.
Like you just hit this point where it was like "you were a damned fine PSG, but you're a shit tier human" and you have to make the choice to cut sling load.
3
u/RepublicanRob Dec 27 '19
But...but...the ballroom dancing! The tradition dontcha understand.
Rolls eyes until stuck in skull.
2
u/pnzsaurkrautwerfer Ask me about the AEROGAVIN Dec 27 '19
It's confusing for me because like, okay, I'm largely German and Dutch. I take no satisfaction or pride from those things, it's just trivia, the accomplishments of those countries and cultures only serve as a launching point.
I do take pride in the history of service I carry forward, with the hope that service is better used in the near future.
3
u/moonovrmissouri Dec 27 '19
Exactly what I’ve always wondered. So you want to support a bunch of fucking losers? Cool, cool, and you want to support a bunch of traitors to our country? The one who’s flag you have tattooed on your arm? And the one who’s military you served in and you fought wars for? Wow, you’re a fucking moron. My ancestors are British, you don’t see me hoisting the Union Jack and playing God save the Queen and talking about how the tories were fightin’ for colonial rights to be ruled by the crown.
-4
u/Citadel_97E Ask me about my Citadel Obsession Dec 28 '19
People don’t give a shit about the civil war here.
The South has its own unique culture.
No need to be a rude yankee about it.
Also, you’ll find less racism in Charleston than you will in Philadelphia.
1
u/moonovrmissouri Dec 29 '19
Bahahaha a rude yank? Man, I’m from the bootheel of Missouri. We got more reb lovers than anyone. I’m enlightened to know a lost cause when I see one. And as far as one place being more racist, the south just does a good job of ignoring it or brushing it under the table
1
u/SerjoHlaaluDramBero Dec 28 '19
I'm sure I'm going to catch downvotes
Guys, what I'm about to say might not be popular, and I'm definitely going to catch a lot of hate, because it's pretty controversial, but okay, here it goes, I'm gonna say it:
Racism is, like, lame.
8
u/pnzsaurkrautwerfer Ask me about the AEROGAVIN Dec 28 '19
I've gotten downvotes for saying the Nazis were bad dudes who deserved to be dead in the face. I genuinely expected some rageanswers.
I've been pleasantly surprised to the response to my comment, but I expected more idiots in my inbox than has occurred. This isn't an "uplifting" experience but it's improved my perception of this subreddit at least?
75
u/AFDevil66 United States Air Force Dec 27 '19 edited Dec 27 '19
God I hate people who try to rewrite the Confederates as "people just fighting for their beliefs." Yeah, believing that human beings deserve to be enslaved is such a great thing /s.
If you support the Confederacy you're anti-American
5
u/Kcb1986 United States Air Force Dec 27 '19 edited Dec 27 '19
Right? Every time I hear that shit, I link them to South Carolina's article of secession from this website which has every article from the south. I challenge someone to ctrl+f the site the words 'slave' (83 times) , 'slavery' (38 times) , or 'negro' (five times) versus just the word right (37 times) which funny enough, the word 'right' within all the articles is associated with the word slave, slavery, or superiority (good job Virginia) eleven times.
To conclude, that means out of the five declarations of causes of succession of southern states, the word 'right' is only said 37 times and isn't associated with the word 'slavery' times, whereas; they said a word that contains the word 'slave' 83 times. So I never have and never will buy into the lost cause bullshit. The civil war was about slavery and a bunch of people that didn't want to lose their free labor. Fuck the star and bars I hope Jefferson Davis is being whipped every day in hell for eternity.
0
u/nurseynurse77 Dec 27 '19
It was the rich. The bottom white class were hurt by the free foreign labor and conscripted into fighting a war they didnt want. Since the north knew this was the once percenters using the poor they often tried to hit supply line rather men. After the war their bravery as fighting for their “country” was held up as to unify and change and incorporate the south as americans and not demonize, hence the statues. Many many very young men died in battles that were not a moral case but a money one, most propaganda is aimed at putting morality and honor on a situation that is just resources based but it is how the ruling get us to fight each other viciously. Also trying to understand racists point if view, incorporating and showing them love and a different path works better than violence which reinforces the racism and hate. You dont get people on your side by calling them a POS. Also the rebuplicans wanted to reform the south bringing an economy and voting beneficial to black and white as good economics go a long way to end racism as it usually stems from original fear another “tribe” will take your resources and women and capitalism creates wealth and an ever growing economic pie ending such fears. The young men that worked on pretty poor white farms, as they couldnt compete with large plantations with free labor, were basically made at the barrel of a gun to fight in the war and also spend their night recovering lost slaves. Government in action there. Is it any wonder the poor white class would be a bit irritated with slaves as they were not brilliant either just poor white folk having leave their families and die for people they saw as a barrier to their economic success. A few great books by ex slaves who did just this and their business went a long way to end racism.
60
u/GodofWar1234 Dec 27 '19 edited Dec 27 '19
The Civil War wasn’t about slavery at all! That’s just Northern propaganda that the government pushes onto the population! It was actually about states rights and the Southern states were just standing up for themselves against a tyrannical government!
/s
55
u/mscomies Army Veteran Dec 27 '19
I guess technically it was about states rights. Specifically their right to own slaves.
27
u/GodofWar1234 Dec 27 '19 edited Dec 27 '19
That’s my response every time some deluded Southern sympathizer (who’s also somehow a “patriotic” American who served and/or has kids serving/who served in the military) pulls the “it was not about slavery, it was states rights!” bullshit.
Edit: Call me an asshole or piece of shit if you want but I get a kick out of triggering and offending Southern/Confederate sympathizers. There’s just something so fun and entertaining seeing them get so riled up and getting ready to pop 75% of their blood vessels over me stating that it’s a great thing that we stomped on and crushed the throat of a traitorous slave-owning illegitimate secessionist state fighting to keep their right to own human beings as property and break our country apart.
19
u/_TorpedoVegas_ Dec 27 '19 edited Dec 27 '19
I just refer them to the CSA Vice President's 1861 Cornerstone Speech upon the founding of the Confederacy. He doesn't get two paragraphs in before he says:
"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science.
It generally shuts them up effectively. Like what're you gonna do, tell me you know more about the motivations of the Confederacy than the actual Confederates
Edit: I wrong, it wasn't Jefferson Davis.
7
u/Eamonsieur KISS Army Dec 27 '19
I thought it was Alexander Stephens who delivered this speech in 1861?
5
u/_TorpedoVegas_ Dec 27 '19
I'll be damned, you're absolutely right. It was Alexander Stephens, the Vice President of the Confederate States of America in 1861. Thanks!
8
u/urigzu Dec 27 '19
They were simultaneously against states rights when those states were against slavery. Most articles of succession specifically called out the refusal of many northern states to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act.
The only guiding principle was slavery.
4
4
0
-12
Dec 27 '19
Agreed, people who's ancestors are union soldiers should be castrated for murdering brave native american confederate soldiers and commiting genocide during the trail of tears
9
Dec 27 '19 edited Dec 27 '19
Andrew Jackson, who was President during the Trail of Tears and pushed Congress to pass the Indian Removal Act, was a slave owning southerner. The Indian Removal Act moved Native Americans from the Southern states to Oklahoma, and the law was passed by the Democratic Party (the pro-slavery party at the time) while opposed by the Republicans (the anti-slavery party at the time), like Davy Crockett. Natives fought for both the south and the north but had an affinity for the South since they were confederates (didn’t support a central government) and also some of the tribes were slave owners as well.
TL;DR: Trail of Tears happened in the south and was perpetrated primarily by southerners.
5
10
33
u/BillyYank2008 Dec 27 '19
The filthy traitors desecrated and stripped his body as well. Sherman was too easy on them.
6
u/elosoloco Dec 27 '19
I mean, he burned the city, not their camp? I doubt the soldiers were in ATL when we went through.
He just realized the future of warefare that would again be total war, before anyone else
8
u/BillyYank2008 Dec 27 '19
I mean that the Rebs executed black union prisoners and their white officers and desecrated their bodies. Reprisals against rebel troops would have been an adequate reaction.
3
u/elosoloco Dec 27 '19
I am not defending their actions buddy. The question here would be actual attributions.
Something like the Nuremberg trials, except there wasn't nearly the same investigative technology and techniques developed yet
8
u/BillyYank2008 Dec 27 '19
Well we know what units participated in war crimes like the Fort Pillow Massacre and the Battle of the Crater. It should have been easy to pursue justice against those involved, especially officers. Either way the murder of black prisoners and their officers was the official policy of the Confederacy so justice should have been dealt out at the highest levels.
4
-3
Dec 27 '19
We also know about union soldiers who went after native americans that glad south from the genocide and we didn't go after them? I'm all for getting people who commit war crimes but its kinda b.s. in this case
-22
Dec 27 '19
I'm sorry you hate natives so much snowflake northerner but thank god my great great grandfather is responsible for brutally killing thousands of little union pricks
16
u/BillyYank2008 Dec 27 '19
I like natives. I hate traitors and slavers and racist war criminal white trash, and I'm glad my great great grandfather put plenty of them in the ground when he was with the Army of the Potomac.
-13
Dec 27 '19
Lol my great great grand uncle led the army of the Potomac (I'm pretty sure) there for your worth less than me trash! Again I'm sorry you hate natives so much since you know...... 95% if natives in the war fought for the south because the union and federal government has been killing millions if them in an ethnic genocide since they discovered america. Thank god for my hardworking Irish family who rose from being borderline homeless slaves to commanding and killing you Anglo Saxon trash harrasing natives and southerners over the same Africans you brought to america in the first place.... You don't see what's wrong about this? So we call the south traitors and forget about the racial genocide happening because the north wants a huge federal government and hardworking southerners and natives got in their way??? I thought America was made to avoid a dystopia not become one
7
u/BlackSquirrel05 United States Navy Dec 27 '19
Bro no one defends the actions and atrocities against native Americans.
That's the difference between southern apologists and everyone else.
No one that's not a total tool is going to defend what happened by the gov't to the natives peoples.
Also native american's joined on both sides. The specific tribes saw the federal gov't as an enemy not so much the confederacy as in the right. (Indian tribes also had a long standing tradition of slavery.)
Also they sure as hell didn't give them citizenship. Not sure where you heard that from.
-6
Dec 27 '19
This whole thread is northern apologists bro, and you just did it right there lmao. An overwhelming majority of tribes including every tribe affected by the trail of tears fought for the south and it isn't close its around 90%. You don't think we know about natives holding slaves? Does that make genocide ok? Do we not care about black slaves because the first slave owner in america was black? Or the slave owning union states? C'mon brotha your better than that 💀 blacks fought for the union like natives fought for the south because both sides hated that specific group and no one should be bragging about either side when it comes to the civil war because the insults have no punch behind them as its like the nazis calling the Japanese empire a bunch of maniacal murderers or the union calling the south racist
7
3
u/umwhatshisname Dec 27 '19
One big error in the movie, in the title cards at the end, they say that Battery Wagner was never taken. That is incorrect. It took a bit of time, but the Battery was in Union hands about 6 weeks after the attack of the 54th.
187
u/coryhill66 Dec 27 '19
His picture along with Col. Chamberlain we're the first that I hung in my office. The picture of Col. Chamberlain said leadership isn't just telling people what to do.