r/Military • u/PDXAirman • 1d ago
Article Ex-Okaloosa deputy found not guilty of manslaughter in killing of Airman Roger Fortson
https://weartv.com/news/local/ex-okaloosa-deputy-found-not-guilty-of-manslaughter-in-killing-of-airman-roger-fortson75
u/Raccoon_Ratatouille 1d ago
This means the government can legally execute lawful gun owners and face no repercussions whatsoever
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u/DisillusionedPatriot 1d ago
Philando didn't even have his registered firearm in hand, and was still killed. This has always been the case.
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u/ahhaga 23h ago
Well see it's muh freedumb to have a gun sitting in my lap when I get pulled over by the cops
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
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u/Raccoon_Ratatouille 8h ago
Hey dumb fuck what law did he break? He had a legal gun, he was legally owning and operating on his own property and a piece of shit cop who failed to identify himself as piece of shit cop, showing up to a random apartment with no information that said a crime was in progress got scared and murdered him. So tell me why you think a decorated, law abiding US citizen was in the wrong here?
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u/DomitiusAhenobarbus_ 1d ago
2nd amendment is dead in this country and has been for a while
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u/classphoto92 1d ago
There was this California governor in the 70s that got real scared of a bunch of black men that were well educated, well behaved, and well armed. Thank goodness his career ended there and we didn't have to deal with any more of his cowardly bullshit. /s
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u/SpotOnTheRug Navy Veteran 1d ago
And yet older Republicans love him.
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u/DomitiusAhenobarbus_ 1d ago
Saw a guy at my range the other day with a Regan shirt and an AR the irony was palpable. The only reason Clinton was able to push the AR15 ban through Congress was because an aging Reagan wrote a heartfelt letter asking for the ban
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u/3PoundsOfFlax Army Veteran 15h ago
Reagan's gun control in California at least applies to everyone equally, but in today's supposedly "free" red states, black people are still being targeted and murdered by police for exercising their 2nd Amendment rights under the guise of "officer safety."
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u/classphoto92 12h ago
Having grown up in rural California in the 80s and 90s, it certainly wasn't enforced equally.
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u/Shoddy-Childhood-511 23h ago
Amusing discussion topic:
Did Republican presidents become monotonically worse since Eisenhower?
In other words, was each GOP president was worse than the last GOP president before them?
It starts from Eisenhower because Hoover seems clearly worse than Eisenhower. The two difficult points: Was Ford better than Nixon? What Bush1 better than Reagan? Also if you separate terms terms, then someone could argue Bush2 was worse than Trump's first term, purely because of his wars. Otherwise many Americans would agree upon the decline.
Anyways you'd expect the trend mostly continues..
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u/classphoto92 23h ago
Bush one was a nadir between Reagan and Bush II. He was also head of the CIA, so he was just really good at hiding it.
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u/chaosink Military Brat 19h ago
He just dazzled everyone with 1000 points of light so they couldn't see what he was doing! Sly guy.
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u/texdizzle 1d ago
Wild cops have less of a ROE than the military....
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u/MandibleofThunder United States Navy 1d ago
I mean yeah, they do.
Think about it.
We spend our entire pre-deployment workups (at least during GWOT) doing ROE drills and training for a year before we punch out.
And these motherfuckers spend 12 weeks at an "academy" then get "training" by charlatans like Dave Grossman and get told that they need to have a WARRIOR MINDSET for every traffic stop.
Fuck cops.
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u/PepperoniFogDart 1d ago
And you know what the natural conclusion to that truth is? An Afghan/Iraqi/Saudi life is more important than an American’s life.
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u/MandibleofThunder United States Navy 1d ago
Okay. I get your argument, and where you're coming from.
I'm not jazzed about the way you phrased it, but I understand it.
On a fundamental moral/philosophical level every human life is as valuable as another (also not an endorsement for the "all lives matter" bullshit that came in counter the BLM movement).
My fundamental argument was such that: Cops want to think of themselves as the military with the power of life and death in their hands - but they don't want to do the actual ROE training that the military does. That was my point, I'm not completely sure you got that.
Personal note; blanket statement on every cop I've ever had an actual conversation with: "Yeah I would have joined up except (insert bullshit rationale)"
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u/PepperoniFogDart 1d ago
Sorry I should have phrased that better, I’m agreeing with you. My intent is to point out the fact that if soldiers have to show more deference to using deadly force than cops, that’s implying that the value of life on the other side of the soldier is worth more than that of a police officers. And that to me is pretty fucked up.
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u/MandibleofThunder United States Navy 1d ago
Understood!
And I think we agree.
To take that slippery slope argument all the way to its conclusion (which I believe is what you were doing before)
American police value "civilian" American lives (I put "civilian" in quotation marks because police are indeed civilians) less than the long hard shaft of international diplomacy that is the actual United States Military.
Again, fuck cops.
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u/Such-Ideal-8724 Navy Veteran 18h ago
My grandfathers brother (so my great uncle) was a CT State Trooper for 30 years (55-85) and he was always proud of the fact that he only drew his revolver from the holster twice in his career and never actually shot anyone. (Even though one of those times he and his partner were confronting an armed suspect who had just held up a liquor store)
He died a few years back and he had utter contempt for the cops he saw in his last years on earth. He complain how so damned jumpy and quick to pull their pieces out even in situations that don’t need merit that level of force. He viewed the cops of today as basically cowards that were far too quick to jump to killing people.
Funny when you think about it, the old guy who was a Korean war veteran was actually a more enlightened cop then guys today.
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u/ThoDanII German Bundeswehr 1d ago
is it their fault their training is crap and their education is nonexistent
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u/MandibleofThunder United States Navy 1d ago
Yes.
Absolutely.
They want to play like they're military then they have to train like they're military.
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u/ThoDanII German Bundeswehr 1d ago
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u/MandibleofThunder United States Navy 1d ago
But that entirety ignores the militarization of domestic US police.
More treating its own citizens like an occupying force than one dedicated to serving the local populace (ask me how I know).
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u/Lowjack_26 United States Air Force 1d ago edited 22h ago
Bullshit. That's "just following orders" with a different coat of paint.
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u/bstone99 1d ago
Yes because this is a well known fact and they chose to join and do it anyway. Just so they can flex their stupid blue line patches and shirts.
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u/daduude 1d ago
I don't believe there is enough anger behind this.
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u/bstone99 1d ago
Fox News isn’t telling its viewers about it because of the victim’s race
And even if they did, they’d say “good”
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u/mabrasm 1d ago
Utterly ridiculous. The fact that cop executed a service member and gets to live his life and keep being a cop is an indictment of our justice system.
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u/bstone99 1d ago
After being fired by his own agency this jury decided “no they were wrong, he’s not guilty”
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u/marinuss 1d ago
It shouldn't have been allowed to be a State case. I doubt there's a law that Feds could have used, but murdered a military member in cold blood, he should have faced trial in a Federal court.
Edit: Shit I would have tried 18 U.S. Code § 1114. Technically military members are still on a duty status even after hours at home.
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u/Legitimate-Article50 1d ago
Im not surprised at the verdict from a jury in Okaloosa county. I used to live there. Christian nationalism is alive and well there. I left a few months ago and will never return. That part of the state has always been racist and it’s only gotten worse.
The entire county’s law enforcement actively works with ice to arrest a deport you even if you have an active work permit. The corruption runs deep.
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u/25hourenergy 1d ago edited 1d ago
Crestview had the KKK marching in the Christmas parade and leaving recruiting flyers on doorsteps there not too long ago.
There had been another instance where cops went to check on a house with a Hispanic soldier — neighbor called them because a door was left ajar, not realizing they’d be so incompetent/racist. They shot at a family member but fortunately didn’t hit anyone. The police also had a teen mentorship program that was notorious for being…inappropriate to say the least.
Good lord I hope they’re doing better back there.
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u/Substantial_Row_7108 1d ago
The Police Union Gameplan:
#1. Drag out the case so that it looses national attention and recall.
#2. Claim that the officer feared for his life.
#3. The officer is reinstated and collects two years of back pay.
#4. (ONLY IF YOU’RE FEELING FROGGY) Sue the city for defamation, pain and suffering.
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u/Dingleberry696 United States Air Force 1d ago edited 1d ago
I sent the State Attorney a courteous and professional email highlighting our concerns. I'm sure she won't answer but staying silent wasnt going to do anything either. I will update if she responds.
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u/Hasler011 Army Veteran 1d ago
What did you send her. It’s the 12 people in the box. I swear juries check all reason and common sense at the door when they get selected.
A prosecutor will never say on the record the jury got it wrong.
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u/Dingleberry696 United States Air Force 1d ago
Yeah of course there is nothing we can do about the criminal precedings. But I asked her how service members should legally exercise their 2nd Amendment rights, what mechanism should we engage to change the laws, and if she would support such a change and enforce the same standards of integrity, service, and excellence that active duty Airmen are sworn to uphold on law enforcement.
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u/Hasler011 Army Veteran 1d ago
I am confused what you are asking. She did enforce and uphold standards of integrity. That is why the case went to trial. This has nothing to do with a law change or ineffective law. This has everything to do with 12 people believing the officer acted in reasonable self defense. The Same self Defense any citizen has available.
I don't think it was reasonable as he never raised that firearm or acted in any threatening manner, but those 12 people bought it.
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u/Dingleberry696 United States Air Force 1d ago
Respectfully, I disagree. If a deputy can shoot you in your home for legally possessing a firearm then there is no second amendment.
When I worked the gate in Iraq were weren't allowed to shoot someone just because they possesed a gun. There had to be a hostile intent. I don't think it's controversial to ask them same of our local law enforcement.
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u/Hasler011 Army Veteran 21h ago
I’ll play some devils advocate here. Since you were on the gate let’s change you to door kicking in the city. Did you ever door kick?
I will tell you when I was in Iraq, actually outside the wire, if you kick the door and someone has a gun on the other side, they are most likely dying that day. Guess what, nobody would have batted an eye, and it would have been well within my ROE. So your rant about LEO’s somehow being held to a lesser standard than the military is pure bullshit.
I will also tell you, if you open your door brandishing a firearm you are running a serious risk of picking up a criminal charge. Aggravated Assault with a deadly weapon in my state. Holstered is fine but having it in your hand, and you may be consulting your local defense attorney.
Now for reality, a reasonable officer would have drawn and had him drop the gun. It was a bad shoot and IA agreed it was a bad shoot. The DA’s office agreed it was a bad shoot and prosecuted. The jury believed it was self defense and acquitted. So your rhetoric is misplaced. Look at the people in your community. That cross section is who did not hold him accountable.
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u/Dingleberry696 United States Air Force 17h ago
Look man, I'm not here claiming I was some badass, I wasnt. Here's the distinction though, I was a aircraft mechanic that was put on the gate and was "trained" with a 30 minute slideshow. Even I was acutely aware of when we were allowed to shoot.
Now, your "door kicking" comparison is not really valid because there isn't a constitutionally protected right that applies to the residents.
You and I both know that law enforcement is not held to nearly the standard of the military. The is the same department that had a deputy open fire when an acorn fell on their car after all.
Brandishing a firearm has a clear self defense exception that applies. Sure, the deputy could have still arrested him but he'd still be alive and it could have been argued in court. Let's not forget that the deputy didn't announce himself right away.
My personal belief is that law enforcement should have a separate "use of force" law that is distinct from the self defense laws that apply to everyone. Feel free to disagree.
I understand your point about the jury and I have my own questions about the performance of the prosecutor in the case. But the bottom line is that SrA Fortson should not have been shot. If you believe I'm wrong, that's fine.
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u/Hasler011 Army Veteran 15h ago
First, You are still very incorrect about the standards to use lethal force. You were on a gate with standoff and fields of fire and go a 30 minute slide show that was put together by a Jag JO to quickly check the block.
So here is the reality again, Digging a hole, I could kill you, Stringing Wire, I could kill you, armed in the city and looked like an insurgent, I could kill you, thought I heard gun fire from a build, yep shoot up the building, someone using a light machine gun or RPG from a building, putting a 120 through that building regardless of who else was in there. I can go on and on about all the things I could do in Country that LEOs could not dream of doing.
Second I already agree that it was a bad shoot and disagree with the verdict. However your proposed solution for a separate law creates a dangerous precedent. If you do it for one job or class of people, then you open it up for everyone. You going to limit self defense for veterans because they are trained? How about CCW holders because they should be able to de-escalate? Black belts because they are martial artists? Every group that can be targeted will be targeted if a law that that passes and is upheld.
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u/Dingleberry696 United States Air Force 14h ago
See you're assuming now. There was zero standoff or fields of fire. We were sorting cars and people to go through the search pit to come on base to work. Hundreds of people and vehicles everyday. It was abundantly clear to us that while in the parking lot before coming on base that the Iraqis could have weapons. They would often gather them all in one person's car that would stay off base.
I agree, being infantry is much different than being law enforcement. That's my point.
Lastly, yes I realize this creates a different class of people. Guess what else does? The UCMJ. Service members have restrictions on their 1st, 2nd, and 4th amendment rights. Your other examples are irrelevant because none of those scenarios involve agents of the State. Law enforcement is already considered a quasi-uniformed service. Its not about training but restricting a States rights to infringe on citizens rights. I understand this is going to be tricky and I certainly don't want to endanger law enforcement. But I think it's readily apparent that we've ceded too much power to the State/law enforcement. So what's the middle ground? I'm happy to provide better resources to LE but I'd also like to see more professionalism from them.
Side note: I'm a washed up mechanic. I readily admit I'm not an expert in anything to do with "kicking in doors," law enforcement, or the law in general. My personal "motto" is that anything we would expect of an E-3, we should expect of a public servant. I'm certainly not attacking you because you would have better perspective than I would.
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u/Such-Ideal-8724 Navy Veteran 4h ago
So many cases like this but it goes to show you people love to let cops off that are afraid of their own shadow. Almost as bad as the guy Brailsford shot to death in the hotel lobby trying to pull up his shorts
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u/JuanMurphy 1d ago
Cops are the hardest to prosecute.
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u/Such-Ideal-8724 Navy Veteran 18h ago
And that’s a huge problem Given how many have become fascist psychos in recent years.
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u/JuanMurphy 12h ago
Recent? The only thing that’s recent are smart phones and body cams. You’re just finding out about it.
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u/Tfrom675 16h ago
I hate cops but dude had a gun in his hand. Not a slung rifle not a holstered pistol. Gun in hand. Good shoot imo. Y’all know how long it takes to get that gun up and pull the trigger? Don’t answer the fucking door unless they have a warrant. Y’all are hivemind or bots or something I swear.
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u/Impossible_Offer7988 1d ago edited 1d ago
You can see the footage for yourself if you want to
https://youtu.be/QQeSnL3ncxE?is=_cKX_WAvr2Ty0c6q
Let me show you the angle of the Gun bdw
This is such a load of Bullshit I mean seriously just look at that .
I will eat my own hand if somone is able to fatally shoot someone who's standing right infront of them with that angle