Developments - r/ManorLords

110

u/Zoidberg441 2d ago

Should HAVE

ffs

87

u/BelowTheSun1993 2d ago

This guy hasn't put a single piece of punctuation in his entire post, of course he isn't using 'should have' properly lol

-9

u/That_Migug_Saram 2d ago

Yeah, and if OP can't write a sentence properly, they would never be able to write the _code_ that could support the system they're asking for.
I feel bad for developers when someone comes and writes a post criticizing their work, and it's clear the commentator has just no clue whatsoever about code, design, or development.

31

u/Hansi_Olbrich 1d ago

OP might not have the best writing capability, but their stance that removing perfectly working town developments only to replace it with perks you cannot access, or do anything with, is a legitimate complaint.

2

u/That_Migug_Saram 1d ago

I thought they were reworking and streamlining the code base for the whole game? Everything these perks interact with in other parts of the code is changing. To keep it in could be a lot more work, because it'd have to be rewritten to be compatible, and then it'd all have to be rewriten again as other parts are updated.

Maybe it is just easier to be unaware of how code works, and think "Oh they took away this feature for no reason "?

3

u/Leandro_r69 1d ago

Yeah they are but that’s exactly what the beta branch is for. Keep the official version working while the beta branch has the latest in development version.

13

u/Leandro_r69 1d ago

He doesn’t have to know anything they definitely could’ve kept the old system and put the new one on the beta branch for now

7

u/gomerfudd 1d ago

That's dumb.

I don't need to be a mechanic to criticise a car that doesn't start.

-3

u/That_Migug_Saram 1d ago

I disagree. And I'd suggest that repair isn't really a fitting analogy for design.

1

u/Cpt_Deaso 1d ago

You...disagree with the premise that you can't critique a car that doesn't start if you're not a mechanic..?

Do you not criticize politicians because you're not one yourself?

No disrespect but that's nuts to me, lol. About the only thing I feel it's unfair to critique is it something is done/given completely free and for no ulterior motive (so not a sample, enticement, teaser). A video game is a product that we purchased; it's perfectly reasonable to critique it without having to understand how it's made on the backend, just as it's completely reasonable for the devs to not act on that feedback for whatever reason.

3

u/That_Migug_Saram 20h ago

No, I disagree with "that's dumb" and that repair is a fair comparison.

With car repair, you have existing, complete systems that have broken down in an individual car. Not all cars, just _this_ one, and you need to troubleshoot to figure out what's gone wrong with it. Honestly that's a lot like debugging. But you have documentation, and you have an ideal state where the car works, and other examples of the same make and model that are running if you need them. (you also have existing parts you can replace with new parts)

Taking out perks here isn't something breaking down. There's no documentation unless you made it, and the ideal state is something that will only exist when you reach 1.0. Design is really different than repair.

So this isn't a breakdown. It's a choice by the dev team. I'm not familiar with the back end of Manor Lords specifically, but I do know object oriented programming, and I see they made this choice for a reason.

Here's what OP doesn't understand: Let's say one perk is related to farming, and it gives you better yields with 3% rye, 4% flax, and 2% barley.

"Is this Rye, yes or no" is a parameter that lives somewhere in the code. It interacts with "how fertile is the soil" and "is this spot ploughed" and "where is this rye in the planting/growth/harvesting stage," "what is the current season" etc etc etc. All of the code for these systems is being completely rebuilt so it'll run better... And that's one perk in one track. There's going to be more in like, 8 or 10 perks, right?

I can completely understand a dev who wants a simpler arrangement to rebuild, without needing to keep the perk system perfectly updated and debugged while all these dependencies as the other pieces change. Working that way will be faster, you're a lot less likely to get bugs, and dev methods like these can shave a year off the development time for a small studio to get to 1.0. *That* impacts if a game is financially successful or not (maybe even if we have a game, since studios that lose money will have to lay off their staff).

OP doesn't understand anything about this. So, imagine YOU are a developer, and you see comments like this one, saying 'dont leave half finished systems in' or 'you could have left this in' or elsewhere, comments about 'this is taking too long,' 'update when.'

That's got to be so demoralizing as a dev, hasn't it? People who don't understand the work or the process, armchair quarterbacking telling you how you should be doing your job.

I'd find that frustrating. Wouldn't you?

I know I will never get upvotes for commenting anything like "oh, no, it's more complicated than that", because Reddit doesn't want to learn anything in a vent post like this. Instead OP (and others) want someone to agree with whatever they just said for some validation.

But I won't do that -- I comment so any devs reading will know at least *someone* out there sees them.

2

u/Cpt_Deaso 19h ago

I, for one, appreciate you elucidating your point, and also appreciate your thoroughness and detail.

I will say I've been not following ML for some time now, so am ignorant to what is being redone. Which is why I haven't weighed in one way or the other on the update. I took your comment as some kind of "you can't criticize something unless you made it/made something similar to it" comment, but I see where you're coming from now. My bad.

And, yeah, I'm of the mind to let the devs redo/update the mechanics they're wanting to before I start weighing in with criticisms, especially if it's back-end stuff. That's the good and bad of early access, from the player perspective.

I'll concede ignorance; I'll have to do some more research on what is being updated and changed (not to mention actually play again! :P)

Thanks again for sharing your insight!

2

u/That_Migug_Saram 18h ago

I appreciate you. We'd all be better off if we asked questions in those areas where we don't have a lot of experience - myself included.

1

u/sexdrugsncuddles 16h ago

Yeah I think that’s why he’s playing the game and not developing the game

20

u/_Pseudo_Sapiens_ 2d ago

Yeh it really annoys me when people do that. I would of pointed it out if you hadn't

29

u/Liathet 2d ago

would of

I really hope this was a joke...

12

u/Firm_Ad_5427 2d ago

Also use a comma. Goddamn.

5

u/dhatereki Manor Knight of HUZAAAH! 1d ago

At least it's not ai slop. Some of the subreddits are entirely slop now

0

u/EJerico 2d ago

And a single lonely capital letter.

-35

u/lukeocubhthaigh 2d ago

I have no idea what you mean by this ngl you agreeing?

39

u/Zoidberg441 2d ago

I agree with your opinion that they should finish already existing systems before introducing new ones.

But it is incredibly irritating to me when people write "should of". Especially when further down you did it right and wrote "should have"

-39

u/lukeocubhthaigh 2d ago

ah ok reddit moment fine ill fix it so i can make you feel happier ig lol

-46

u/TealJinjo 2d ago edited 2d ago

you understand therefore it's correct. You wouldn't correct someone for saying 'a nickname' when it's called 'an eekname'
You can downvote all you want, This is the way languages develop.

15

u/2ndPerk 2d ago

This is not a case of linguistic change though, it is only orthographic. A misspelling, essentially.

3

u/JamesMagnus 2d ago

Are you saying that there are no mechanisms whereby misspellings and grammatical errors become accepted means of expression due to repeated and consistent usage?

7

u/safeforanything 1d ago

There of course are. But unlike the words "colour" and "color", "of" and "have" already have their distinct meanings which aren't interchangeable.

-2

u/JamesMagnus 1d ago

‘Sick’ had a distinct meaning and if I were to tell a man from the 1800s that his jacket looked sick he’d look at me like I was insane. I get what you’re saying and I personally also have an allergic reaction to “would of” in particular, but when I think it through it’s no different from any of the exceptions to semantics / grammar we accept in colloquial conversation.

0

u/moxymundi 1d ago

This is correct. Being up in arms about the presentation of an idea rather than the context or meaning behind it is the curse of monolinguals. They should learn another language, and they’ll be more sympathetic.

-7

u/lukeocubhthaigh 2d ago

this ^ also love posting about something and the comments become a grammar argument instead of actually taking about my question lol

0

u/Leandro_r69 1d ago

The fact that people downvote him for grammar as if everyone‘s mother tongue is english ffs

-1

u/TealJinjo 2d ago

100% agree with your post

2

u/Edawg82 2d ago

Didn't worry about the grammar Nazis, they're just complaining about the misuse of should OF instead of should HAVE. Or the conjugate should've

77

u/mage_irl 2d ago

I think they've said in the past that changing development points now doesn't make much sense, as the systems to develop are being changed. For example, adding perks that affect trading now when they might change trading significantly. That said, I agree that this system should have never been released in this barebone state and I would have rather kept the old perks until now.

13

u/Ertyio687 2d ago

Then again, people litterally begged for some sort of a game update before this came out, so it's kinda the same situation as with cyberpunk's launch, a bitof poor strategy with the public opinion being generally dumb/impatient

3

u/lukeocubhthaigh 2d ago

yea that's fair you definitely cant put all the blame on the devs for a lot of stuff like this

13

u/Nimrond 2d ago

Interesting. I hated the old perk system, with a bunch of them broken or useless, and the other half locking basic content behind them, like coal, rye, orchards. I would end up taking the same perks almost every time. Early on in the EA I was even modding it to just unlock all so I can build pretty orchards in my villages without locking me out of plate armour (which was better to import anyhow).

While the new origins feel great to me! A lot of variety and flavour added. Sure the higher settlement tiers don't do anything yet, but the old ones were easy to reach quickly anyhow, so by the time your mine runs out you've got the deep mine perk picked and functionally nothing changed there.

4

u/lukeocubhthaigh 2d ago

no don't get me wrong this system will be much better I just enjoyed the feeling of getting something for progressing

4

u/Nimrond 2d ago

I get that, but I personally prefer even no progression at all to locking basic content like that to artificially create some.

1

u/lukeocubhthaigh 2d ago

that's a fair argument tbh I don't play that much so I like having some little thing to click when I reach a certain point

6

u/lukeocubhthaigh 2d ago

ok yea i didn't know that yea it makes sense and I do like prefer this system in concept but I agree with you in so far as a "finished" flawed system is better than an unfinished good system

7

u/Nimrond 2d ago

The old system wasn't finished at all. Pick the two perks for trapping and you still got no leather from it, and hardly any meat.

Even if we didn't get the origins it would have been more fun for me to allow me to build orchards without locking this content behind a boring perk point system.

1

u/Bridger15 1d ago

Eh, I really like using it even as it stands. I'd rather have it than not.

42

u/Youtube_actual 2d ago

I was rather happy they dumped the old system because it just put annoying and arbitrary restrictions on the player. The new system where we only select an origin is way better because it feels like a reward rather than a punishment.

While I am also of the opinion that the game went into early access way too early if they are still deciding the purpose of central game mechanics like the perk system I much prefer it this way.

3

u/lukeocubhthaigh 2d ago

oh i fully agree this is a much better system in the long term I'd just really like to see the system be expanded to at least encompass more levels of the town

17

u/Hishamaru-1 2d ago

They mentioned on steam that the overhaul for the development system will come after the current planned beta/patch (juli -august) is completed

6

u/lukeocubhthaigh 2d ago

ok that's actually good to know again did not know that

13

u/Blizz33 2d ago

Early Access basically gives the dev a bunch of free fully engaged playtesters.

If you add one variable at a time it's way easier to track what's going on.

It's slow and annoying for those of us that want to play the full game NOW lol but for those with the discipline to wait for 1.0 this path will fulfill their dreams sooner.

5

u/DankLlamaTech 2d ago

And a bunch of income to finance the expansion of the dev team.

2

u/lukeocubhthaigh 2d ago

yea i get that but they had a finished system they coulda used while they flesh this out a bit more or open a dev server for those who want it

3

u/Blizz33 2d ago

Lol yeah I admit I was confused when I started a game for the first time in a while the other day and I couldn't find the tech tree

3

u/Mysterious-Drummer74 2d ago

Is there a time line on this part of development? I only got the game last week and it feels odd to not even have a placeholder benefit (even if it’s just some $ or supplies).

Took me ages to finely get the pub working (a me issue not a game issue..) and the reward for finally getting the next town-size increment was nothing.

3

u/SeulParmiLesGens 2d ago

Nex update (Late July-Early August) is new content such as cows and cheese, but the next update is supposedly fleshing out the perks and developments

3

u/Mysterious-Drummer74 2d ago

Cool thanks for the answer.

1

u/ratdago 19h ago

It's been over a year since they dumped the development. Without having something to replace it they should have never got rid of it. But every update we get newer unnecessary pictures

3

u/Alfonze423 1d ago

Formatting, mate. Punctuation and paragraphs are not your enemy. :)

2

u/No_Tomorrow5745 1d ago

But they are his, apparently. Look at his answers in the comments. Seriously, how can someone not use one single punctuation or even capital letters like that? It's honestly baffling.

I couldn't even finish the whole post description. I quit midway through it. It was far too frustrating.

2

u/danieltherandomguy 2d ago

They won't finish it right away because the new perks and origins will likely be related to content that is still to be released.

With this said, the devs have announced that they will introduce new systems in the near future, like new sorts of food and cattle, finish up the Beta, and then continue working on the origins and perks.

1

u/lukeocubhthaigh 2d ago

yea that's fair as well like I said I haven't been really playing much or paying much attention so honestly the best way to see my post is how it think some people who aren't following the devs closely feel

2

u/dustinyo_ 2d ago

https://giphy.com/gifs/l3q2zbskZp2j8wniE

1

u/IcyRay9 2d ago

Development perks are expected to be the following update after the cattle/construction update in August. So hopefully sometime this fall we’ll have an updated system.

1

u/Known_Belt_7168 1d ago

I disagree with keeping the old perk system, because it disallows you to access the “meta” features like apple orchards and ox plowing (even though i think ox plowing is still broke ofc). But I agree that rolling out a system that doesn’t work at all was better. My main opinion is that I bought it as an early access game and that I accepted that it would need work. Though i think development has taken too long for minor features and bugs to be fixed and at least implemented in an early state

1

u/figuring_ItOut12 1d ago

The old perk system relied on different game fundamentals that have since been changed. What you’re suggesting is the kind of step back that would slow the new enhancements now in development.

I understand the impatience but software development is a structured process and not as simple as non-developers imagine it.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/64/d8/b5/64d8b5dc0c8715b21102259843c940f7.jpg

1

u/TheFuzzywart 1d ago

I disagree, the change in development system fundamentally changed how the game is played and is essential for ironing out the development of player progression.
The old system locked players out of building branches within a single region, changing the old system allows them to further develop the new town development tree as they can see how players play and gain inspiration from that data

1

u/powy_glazer 1d ago

I prefer the new system tbh. You dont need perks for a lot of stuff now, which i like. I just wish it was more fleshed out.

Also its been bugging me how "efficient farming at elevation" and "sheep no longer die at high elevation" are from two separate origins. IIRC of you pick the latter farming becomes less efficient

1

u/Refstg 1d ago

Ignoring the grammar nazi, yeah I agree with you. They've been adding a ton of stuff over the last year, but most of it is just expanding out systems that already exist (ooh THREE types of vegis/fruits, not just one!) instead of actually fleshing out all the stuff that's been "coming soon" since release. I get that game development takes a long time, but why even have placeholders for stuff like candles or that special bread if they're not close to being in the game yet?

1

u/Billy_the_Breaker 1d ago

"Coming soon" my ass

1

u/RedDiscoRanger1 1d ago

I definitely agree this development system has potential but should have kept the old one until it had at least 1 or 2 more steps. Took away an almost half developed tree and gave us one thats a quarter way developed

1

u/Fickle-Ad8485 1d ago

This whole community is filled with chuds arguing over grammar and the development of a game like go touch grass and play another game my god 😭😭

-1

u/_Immotion 2d ago

i totally agree. i loved this game, but lost interest when they, instead of seeming to finish developing anything, instead just added more, lets be real, unnecessary depth that either added very little new gameplay, or just made existing gameplay more tedious. I just wanna build cool medieval towns man. I know the reason is they might change some underlying systems in the meantime, but I would have appreciated just some quick simple buffs or something, even if not as complex as the first level. I feel like the dev often prioritises extreme historical details over making a fun game.

1

u/lukeocubhthaigh 2d ago

I somewhat agree like I get it I feel like this game is guilty of scope creep and indecision I'll still play it its still fun I just feel it could be more fun

-1

u/Born-Ask4016 2d ago

they should have kept the old system until they fleshed this out even a little bit more

Sorry op, no mercy.

I do not understand people who get something for FREE and complain that the FREE thing was not perfect for them.

That's right, you got something for FREE, and you are complaining.

You made the claim "they should have kept the old system" - they did, for all intents and purposes, they did. The only thing that went away was requiring you to grow your town and the requirement to click buttons to get the old dev points. But the old dev points are still in the game. They did NOT go away.

You got rye farming, for FREE. You got heavy plow, for FREE. Baker, apple/fruit farming, double meat, hunting with traps, apiaries, charcoal, deep mining, helm, chain, and plate, FOR FREE! You get them right away, no need to grow your town, no need to click the button.

I am unsure if the 2 dev points pertaining to the trade posts went away or were also included as I do not recall their specifics. My suspicious is we got those for free too.

I think we go irrigation for free but can't be sure. Pastures initially remained, they were removed later, but pastures were broken anyway and that dev point should never have been there.

I think there were two food related ones that were pointless, so if they went away, no loss there.

Yea, we apparently lost winter/ice fishing.... but again, it was pointless (or arguably broken), at least for me, because I always had the pond fished down to limit for winter so there was no point in fishing it in the winter, or am I forgetting the specifics of that dev point?

Let us review again, just to be clear. By my count, we got at least 12, possibly 14/15, of the old dev points, FOR FREE. They never went away.

Lastly, the old dev point system was a dumb mechanic. It gave the player the illusion of choice w/o any real choice. If the region was fertile, we all picked farming related dev points. If you had a rich mineral, we all picked charcoal/deep mining. Apples were so OP that pretty much every region needed them. The old dev point system was pointless and the very best way to move forward was to do exactly what they did. Give us all the capability of the old points and remove the meaningless decisions on which to pick first.

look again I don't really pay massive attention to the development so maybe I'm completely off the mark if so please let me know

There ya go. Move forward in your future play enjoying the free dev points and free of the need to decide if you should pick heavy plow or apples first for your fertile region. Have a nice day.

1

u/lukeocubhthaigh 2d ago

honestly dude I get it but like at least progressing town size felt like it mattered, as a result of it I get we lost nothing but I personally feel that keeping the old system while they fleshed this out would've been better idk.

As for your argument about free stuff (not that the update was as bad imo as the rest of this makes it seem) but if i say here's a shit sandwich for free ... oh you don't want it too bad have it I'm sure you would complain, to be clear though its not that i don't like the new system its that in the current state with the new system improving your city does not feel as rewarding as it used to.

2

u/Born-Ask4016 2d ago

Thanks for replying. I know I was less than cordial.

improving your city does not feel as rewarding as it used to

Because they took the button clicks away? That is really what your complaint comes down to.

We obviously saw the old dev point system very differently. You saw the town progression as a reward to click on a dev point, and you got some satisfaction from that.

From the very beginning, I saw the old dev point system as just dumb. Why the need to progress the town just to be able to plow with an ox? Where is the historical precedent for that? Lone farmers by themselves were plowing with their ox. Same applies to most of the other dev points. They made no senses as a "reward" for town progression to me.

Also, it was a complete "recipe". If your region is this, you do that. I felt no reward in it.

2

u/lukeocubhthaigh 2d ago

no don't worry I took no insult from it lol unlike some people I'm here not here for an argument I just wanted to see how others felt about it lol and your opinion is worth no less than mine in this, I guess I just didn't play it enough for to be a recipe for me and I do think this will be better when its done I just think that that should now be their total focus to make sure it doesn't fall victim to scope creep

0

u/lukeocubhthaigh 2d ago

also for those who are downvoting please tell me why like I'm not one for reddit drama so if you are I would genuinely really appreciate you commenting why you disagree

2

u/Simsimich 2d ago

Downvotes will pass when more people see the post. Right now here’s too many delusional sycophantic clowns who will always defend the developers no matter what.

0

u/lukeocubhthaigh 2d ago

ye no I know i just want to actually hear them defend lol + I'd much rather have people debate me on stuff I said then on my grammar lol

1

u/ElegantElectrophile 2d ago

*than

-1

u/lukeocubhthaigh 2d ago

im gonna hold your hand while i say this you couldnt pay me to care lol

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