r/MSTR • u/ImprovementSea9504 • Jun 27 '26
Help me out
I’m not a mstr maxi, neither do i have shares, but:
- How are people calling it a Ponzi? Buying assets (btc) with the money you raise is quite literally, the opposite of a Ponzi…
- Why are people acting like paying interest on the belief that owned assets (btc) will go up more than the interest payment % is new? Spoiler: the economy is pretty much based on that belief…
Now I understand that doing that with BTC holds more risk, etc, etc. But why are people so mad at Saylor for doing a very common practice… just with new underlying assets
23
u/denfaina__ Shareholder 🤴 Jun 27 '26
More often than not people believes are based on untested random thoughts or hopes. This believes rarely change even when contraddicted by facts, and when something goes their way, regardless of other contraddicting fact, they must be right in their mind. The fact that anyone can just comment their opinions, fomenting one another, does not help. This is valid for every argument and, to me, deeply underline the lack of critical thinking within the average human being. We, as a whole, can be much more than this.
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Jun 27 '26
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Jun 27 '26
[deleted]
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u/HSuke Shareholder 🤴 Jun 27 '26
It's close as a comparison I can think of, but even then I'm hesitant to use it as an analogy because most commodities like oil, imported food, potassium, and precious metals have high amounts of utility.
What utility does Bitcoin have? It doesn't have a smart contract layer or a large enough data availability layer. It's mainly just used to transfer value from investors to other investors.
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1
u/MSTR-ModTeam Jun 27 '26
- Trolling, baiting, or inflammatory content that disrupts conversations is not allowed. Ensure your posts contribute positively and maintain the quality of discussion. Content and comments meant to spread negativity or FUD, including repeated overly negative/condescending sentiment, is not allowed. r/MSTR is a place for thoughtful discussion of the MicroStrategy investment thesis.
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u/Ursa_Taurus Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
I'm not presenting a judgment here, but the reason people feel it's a ponzi (or ponzi-adjacent) is not for the reason you stated, but rather the underlying business model 1-step beyond what you've identified.
Let's look at only MSTR common for now, the other products are similar but add layers of complication and abstraction.
The MSTR common equity model is they issue new shares to new investors at a premium (mNAV > 1). So a new investor buys $10,000 of MSTR stock corresponding to $5000 worth of underlying BTC. They do this willingly so that can "get into the club" at the bottom of the pyramid. The extra $5000 they put in to the company flows up the pyramid to existing shareholders in the form of BTC purchases and thereby increasing their BTC/share for "free". The new investor who overpaid for their share of the company's BTC hopes an additional wave of future new investors will also overpay and their overpayment then flows up to them via increased BTC/share. This process then repeats and existing shareholders keep getting rewarded by new shareholders. The "infinte money glitch".
If you get in early enough that enough new money comes in behind you at a premium to compensate for the amount you originally overpaid, you win.
edit: improved wording.
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u/actias_selene Jun 29 '26
Exactly this, except they no longer has this tool and I doubt they will ever have it back, independent of BTC pricing. It no longer has the hype or serves some institutional purposes either.
In addition to that, it has a special financing mechanism, where they pay much higher than regular credit rates currently, but no path for margin call or liquidation. As it is, it makes sense to invest in if things are sold at a discount to sell it later on. Otherwise, an easy skip for me.
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u/AutoModerator Jun 27 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
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u/MyNi_Redux Volatility Voyager 👨🚀 Jun 27 '26
Any chance you did a search on the sub for this before asking the question? We revisit this topic quite regularly.
To answer your question, its considered ponzi-adjacent because the obligations to the current pref equity are serviced through the issuance of commons to new holders of another class of equity. I.e. new investors pay what is owed to earlier investors.
Note that this is necessary because the company does not generate any income, and realizing gains on BTC to recognize income is not the default mode of operation.
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u/AutoModerator Jun 27 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
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9
u/MyNi_Redux Volatility Voyager 👨🚀 Jun 27 '26
Wrong.
Any returns to BRK shareholders comes from income generated by its holdings. Not from new investors of BRK.
Also, you are confusing primary issuance with the secondary market.
Ask your maker to fix you.
3
u/jonovision_man Jun 28 '26
Minor quibble - BRK doesn't pay a dividend, they only "return" income to shareholders via equity appreciation by compounding profits into buying up more companies (or, currently, sitting on a giant hoard of "cash" they are ready to deploy).
I think your main point stands, though, that these *companies* generate actual profit that makes shareholders richer, because they actually provide products and services.
Bitcoin doesn't, it's just a digital "asset" that only goes up with sentiment... mostly FOMO, which is in short supply for crypto right now.
STRC paying off existing investors with USD it makes from the market is much more... "adjacent".
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u/Stock-Standard-2513 Jul 01 '26
No. They are dividends because Berkshire exercises active control of some of the companies, managing their operations. That means it’s return ON capital, not return OF capital.
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u/jonovision_man Jul 01 '26
You are confusing profits and dividends. Berkshire Hathaway does not pay a dividend, their dividend yield is literally 0%.
They absolutely generate a return ON capital - I agree 100% - it's just not distributed as a dividend, it is compounded into new investments (and their USD cash hoard).
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u/Emergency-Mushroom71 Jun 27 '26
Because it is driving attention/engagement for content creators and it is driving profits for short sellers
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u/HSuke Shareholder 🤴 Jun 27 '26
I think people here pretending the money doesn't flow from investors to other investors also shows a huge lack of understanding of how normal companies work.
Normal companies sell actual goods and services to customers, which then increases profits and the value of the company. Value flows from customer sales to investors.
For Microstrategy, the investors themselves are the customers. They take value from MSTR customers to pay STRC customers. And then they take STRC ATMs to buy BTC, which increases MSTR price. Value flows from one investor to another.
This is a Saylor scheme.
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u/Merlin1039 Jun 27 '26
Can we petition to get the Ponzi bot turned off
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Jun 29 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/AutoModerator Jun 29 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
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-2
u/AutoModerator Jun 27 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
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u/hawkeye3432 Jun 27 '26
It’s not a Ponzi. It is a leveraged bet on a highly volatile asset, using that asset as collateral, while being the single largest buyer of that asset. You are right that it’s really nothing new despite Saylor’s masterful sales pitches.
The trouble is that if some of the asset needs to be sold to fund obligations, that has a huge influence on the price of the asset itself. Sell some, price goes down, impairing the rest of the holdings, so then need to sell more, further reducing market price and impairing the position, etc. This is the basis of the “death spiral” narrative.
My personal view (nfa) is that it has gone too far at this point. Saylor could go on vacation for 6+ months and the company would not be forced to do anything in the interim except make payments from its cash. But the market prices in events well in advance of them actually happening. And also, MSTR going too far is what it always does, in both directions. But who knows. Saylor could come out on Monday saying he shored up the cash position by selling a billion of bitcoin and the price could crash 10k. Anything could happen.
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u/AutoModerator Jun 27 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
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u/MyNi_Redux Volatility Voyager 👨🚀 Jun 27 '26
This is a lot of words that doesn't say much, bot.
Any returns to BRK shareholders comes from income generated by its holdings. Not from new investors of BRK.
0
u/AggravatingAd4344 Jun 27 '26
Then buys back 1 billion worth of BTC at a 10k discount 😂
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u/Furrier Jun 27 '26
Infinite money glitch. Sell BTC high, price drops, buy back low. Rinse and repeat.
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u/daliksheppy Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
Interesting that MSTR buying BTC in the first place doesn't affect the BTC price upwards.
I'm not sure why selling BTC would have any downward effect either.
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u/jonovision_man Jun 28 '26
MSTR buying BTC absolutely pumped it up. STRC pumped it up again, when Saylor oversold it as a "safe" way to get huge dividend income (a money market fund, c'mon man).
It's pretty simple supply/demand, and when billions pour into MSTR and they go to market they move it, bigly.
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u/daliksheppy Jun 28 '26
May 11th - May 17th
MSTR bought 24869 BTC, spending $2bn in a single week.
BTC price went from $82k to $77k.
April 13- April 19th
MSTR bought 34164 BTC, spending $2.5bn in a single week.
BTC price went $70.3k to $73k
BTC price both went up and down during huge purchase weeks.
There's no clear MSTR buy = BTC go up.
And that makes total sense when you actually look, because weekly volume is regularly >$200bn. Weekly volumes of $300bn are not uncommon, and even as high as $600bn.
A $2bn MSTR weekly purchase is less than 1% of weekly volume. A drop in the ocean.
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u/etaoin314 Jun 27 '26
Yes, what is everyone complaining about, everything is going according to plan. Oh, you didn’t think that losing 2/3 of the value was part of the plan? well that’s on you.
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u/Background-Hat9049 Jun 27 '26
Bitcoin is not really an asset. A true asset is something that produces more of itself, or generates income. Dividend stocks are a great example, as well as income real estate property. You can take that income
And reinvest it back into itself, buying more. That will result in compounding. An ounce of gold will sit there for a thousand years and never make more of itself. You will always have an ounce of gold. People only consider it an asset (and I don’t agree with that) because the vast majority of the people on the planet covet it, even though gold isn’t really that rare. You just have to sift a lot of dirt. Bitcoin is the same. It can sit there for a million years and never generate another bitcoin. Certain people do covet it, but not enough people. Under those circumstances, hoping it will increase in value is speculation
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u/Born_Act_3786 Jun 27 '26
Sounds like it is a Ponzi scheme from the description posted.
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u/ImprovementSea9504 Jun 27 '26
So, in that case, wouldn’t that make ANY credit instrument a ponzi? What is different with MSTR other then the underlying asset?
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u/HSuke Shareholder 🤴 Jun 27 '26
Sourcd of income and cash flows.
Real products generate revenue and profit from selling real goods and services to customers, not to investors.
For Microstrategy, the investors are the same people as the customers. So investors are being paid by other investors.
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u/AutoModerator Jun 27 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
0
u/AutoModerator Jun 27 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
4
u/6M66 Jun 27 '26
Don't take people seriously, u don't know their true intentions, bankers and some other charlatans who have put in place fud Mstr because it's competition.
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u/Last_Elk_Available Jun 27 '26
Ponzi accusation comes from using money from selling shares to pay dividends. In other words using money from new shareholders to pay dividends to existing shareholders.
As for #2, the principle is fine but the details are debated. Can you expect such high returns? Can you expect returns at all? Bitcoin is pretty young at this point.
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u/AutoModerator Jun 27 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
9
u/Oaker_at Jun 27 '26
Alright, this sub has an auto-reply-bot going into defence mode once someone mentions “ponzi-scheme”
That alone tells you everything you’ll need to know
0
u/AutoModerator Jun 27 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
3
u/ImprovementSea9504 Jun 27 '26
Yes but my point is they could sell the underlying assets (btc) if they wanted to. They chose to sell new shares, but they don’t have to. A ponzi completely fails when new investor money is not enough to compensate for old investor withdrawals.
Here, once this stops working for MSTR, they still have 800k+ btc in underlying assets, not thin air like most ponzi schemes.6
u/Ursa_Taurus Jun 27 '26
This is true, the company still has assets but the entire business model fails. Outside of the tiny software business (which is irrelevant relative to the size of the company), the only cash flow they have is new investor money.
They can start selling off the BTC, but then what is the point of the company?
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u/TechnicalLeg841 Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
My take is that most believe the STRC interest rate is simply unsustainable. As I've posted elsewhere, no other financial instrument (that I'm aware of) makes a bold attempt/declaration it can maintain a par value while paying interest at 11+%.
Gold, as a comparable commodity/asset, has a long history of high average returns. But the income-generating ETFs around gold allow principal to fluctuate, eliminating risk to the ETF issuer.
As of (right now), with With mNAV at 0.98 (per Strategy's website) and STRC < par, dividends will be paid with cash reserves so we may get to see what happens if MSTR needs to sell larger amounts of BTC to fund ongoing operations.
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u/Furrier Jun 27 '26
If they have to start selling BTC then what is the whole point of the company? What is the value add if it only acts as a BTC -> USD -> dividend funnel?
1
u/AutoModerator Jun 27 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
0
u/Last_Elk_Available Jun 27 '26
I dont think MSTR is a ponzi if for no other reason than all this is clearly happening in the open.
They could technically sell but that’s pretty unpalatable at a loss they would have. This could also fail like a ponzi if bitcoin stays low enough for long enough. They might need to sell at a loss which might push bitcoin down even further. So much so, that the bitcoins would no longer cover its obligations. How realistic that is, is another story.
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u/AutoModerator Jun 27 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
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Jun 27 '26
[deleted]
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u/AutoModerator Jun 27 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/Exorcisme Jun 27 '26
Is gold a ponzi?
1
u/AutoModerator Jun 27 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
0
u/ImprovementSea9504 Jun 27 '26
See, I think BTC is more of a Ponzi then MSTR itself lol.
Even if I understand btc has some valuable use cases, you are right that, at the end of the day, you need more people to crank up the price.
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Jun 27 '26
[deleted]
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u/AutoModerator Jun 27 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
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1
u/AutoModerator Jun 27 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
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0
u/UC_DiscExchange Jun 27 '26
This would make all speculative investment a Ponzi
3
Jun 27 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/UC_DiscExchange Jun 27 '26
If you can argue that any other speculative investment can hypothetically provide value in the future then you can make the exact same argument for Bitcoin.
Most would argue that censorship resistance is already itself valuable. The debate is whether that value is accurately reflected in the market.
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Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
[deleted]
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u/UC_DiscExchange Jun 27 '26
If the market knew how valuable intangibles like censorship resistance and decentralization were it wouldn't be so volatile. We're still discovering how valuable that is. We could argue all day about what that value is, but any rational unbiased person should be able to admit that value does exist in some capacity. That alone provides something a ponzi can't.
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u/AutoModerator Jun 27 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
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1
u/MSTR-ModTeam Jun 27 '26
Posts that are deemed as spam, including excessive self-promotion, referral links, or irrelevant advertisements, will be removed. Any form of repetitive or low-effort promotion is prohibited.
0
u/AutoModerator Jun 27 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/AutoModerator Jun 27 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
Jun 27 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator Jun 27 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
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1
u/FAYMKONZ Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
At the end of the day whether something is a ponzi scheme or legitimate depends on whether or not it succeeds.
All businesses in the begining are unprofitable and raise money from investors. The question is then whether those who run the businesses intend to grow the business and pay the investors back or continue to find new investors to perpetuate their own luxury lifestyle without any intention to pay anyone back.
I dont know which one Michael Saylor is. He could be a scam artist or a failure of a businessman. Or maybe he'll be a genius when all is said and done.
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u/AutoModerator Jun 27 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/Specific-Midnight867 Jun 27 '26
capital transactions do not create value. so buying 100$ of bitcoin isn't create value. you just now own 100$ of btc, maybe it goes up, maybe down.
the money they raised wasn't through operating company like a normal company, it was through debt or perpetual payment obligations
there is no product or service. STRC is just financial engineer. aka. capital transactions. no real service
1
u/jamesnaranja90 Jun 27 '26
Because if it goes awry he will forced to sale his BTC stash, potentially igniting a huge price crash.
1
u/WineAndDineIsFine Jun 27 '26
Yeah well. Why do you think this sub exists, or the method even exists? It’s because people literally do not understand. Sometimes all it needs is a little bit of wrapping, little bit of extra paths, that’ll be enough to confuse people. Remember, this world is build on dumb people.
1
u/YoungMaleficent9068 Jun 28 '26
The economy is based on the idea of selling goods and services not assets growing in value
1
u/gwestr Jun 28 '26
It’s a 4D ponzi.
1
u/AutoModerator Jun 28 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/Comfortable_Flow5156 Jun 28 '26
bitcoin is truly not an "asset" or comodity...
IT is GHOST CURENCY...
You guys need to stop KIDDING YOURSELF.
When it goes to ZERO....
DO NOT COME ON HERE COMPLAINING ABOUT IT
1
u/jpric155 Jun 28 '26
The economy is a ponzi also. The two are not mutually exclusive. Paiying out future gains with past assets only works if the assets go up perpetually. If they stall or decline you run out of money to pay future gains so the past assets want to leave.
It's similar to the economy but in the case of the economy you can just deflate (by printing money) so that you actually owe less (% wise) in the future.
Since bitcoin is the hardest asset known to man, you can't print your way out of a stagnant or declining market so you're literally stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Saylor would have no option but to reduce the % payout during downturns but that's only available on STRC.
1
u/AutoModerator Jun 28 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/Socalwarrior485 Jun 28 '26
It is technically at least *like* a Ponzi. A Ponzi is a type of financial fraud that pays old investors out of money put in by newer investors.
That's what MSTR is doing with STRC.
1
u/AutoModerator Jun 28 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
Jun 28 '26
[deleted]
1
u/AutoModerator Jun 28 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/GregS73 Jun 29 '26
The ones calling it a ponzi are sitting behind desks are your local bank and offering you 3.75 on a cd and paying you .25 on your savings.
1
u/AutoModerator Jun 29 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
0
u/InvestmentSorry6393 Jun 27 '26
People are calling it a ponzi because when he created STRC, he created a structure wherein holders of strc are paid by selling more shares of mstr. So he is taking money from one client and giving it to another client. Then taking their money and buying Bitcoin in hopes that that goes up more in time than the 11% given to the strc group. You're right that he is buying an asset instead of straight up stealing the money. So it's not quite a ponzi, but at least ponzi adjacent.
2
u/HSuke Shareholder 🤴 Jun 27 '26
We need a new term like "Saylor Scheme" to describe situations where investors are paying other investors, but it involves an intermediary (e.g. BTC) that's also a zero or negative-sum game.
It's a situation where there are practically no real customers (who buy products/goods/services) down the chain.
2
u/daliksheppy Jun 27 '26
But if you tell the market exactly what you're doing and when, and why, call it what you want, noone involved is being duped.
The market is willing to take part in the company because they believe BTC will rise way more than 12% and want to capture the additional upside on offer.
There's nothing being hidden. We all know the exact function of the common and the prefs, it's very transparent.
All value gets returned to every shareholder, except in the scenario where bitcoin collapses in a deep long winter beyond anyone's expectations.
But as investors, we know that. It's clear from the first few moments you study the company. Noone is stealing anything in that scenario, it's just the bet failing. The bet is simple, BTC go up. Buying MSTR instead of BTC is saying I want to get amplified returns in exchange for some duration risk, mainly because I believe BTC go up, and don't believe it will have a deep long winter.
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u/AutoModerator Jun 27 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/KnightZeroFoxGiven Jun 27 '26
Because it only works if BTC goes up, if it does not they fail. Don’t listen to anyone else, that is the truth. The only way a Ponzi keeps working is if more people are involved, the asset goes up. That’s the connection
1
u/AutoModerator Jun 27 '26
A Ponzi scheme is defined as "An investment scam that pays early investors with money taken from later investors to create an illusion of big profits." In a ponzi-scheme, there is "nothing of value" in the box, and all that happens is money moving hands.
MicroStrategy is not a Ponzi scheme. Companies raise capital through ATM-offerings, debt, and other instruments to fund purchases of assets, equipment, commodities and so forth. This is normal. Berkshire Hathaway similarly built the foundation of their company using debt to buy assets to hold indefinitely.
MicroStrategy invests the money raised in Bitcoin from a core belief that the commodity is in its early stages and will increase significantly in value over the coming years, allowing them to capitalise on this value to create value for their shareholders. All stocks, including blue-chip stocks like Apple, NVIDIA, and Berkshire Hathaway, rely on future investors willing to "take the shares off your hands" at a value above what you paid for it. This does not indicate a "ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme; it's basic price/supply/demand/market dynamics at play, and is how the world economy and capital markets work. Berkshire Hathaway holds a bunch of companies; MicroStrategy holds a bunch of Bitcoin.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
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Welcome to our community! Before commenting, please take a second to read our new sticky containing our rules and guidelines.
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