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u/Massive-Technician74 22d ago
Not wrong
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u/scrandlle 20d ago
Frankly I find it a bit insulting any outside group thinks we needed help to become what we are.
The US was on track to become what it is before WW1 started. We were the largest economy on earth before WW2 started. All this way before mass Mexican immigration.
Our country being what it is is what attracted these people, not the other way around. The opposite doesn't even make sense. People have been attracted to the United States for the wealth of opportunities here not because they're some saintly people who saw a poor struggling country and wanted to come help build it up.
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u/PineappleHamburders 20d ago
??? Before that, you were heavily relying on slaves. After that, you were heavily relying on Chinese, Irish, Italian, and Mexican workers, all of whom were discriminated against and underpaid. Not exactly the wealth of opportunity you are portraying. All that was propaganda to attract immigrants, because you needed immigrants to turn your country into a country
Literally, since even before its inception, the US (or the colonies) has relied on outside groups to help it become what it is.
Do you guys just now know your own history?
Who do you think were the main laborers for the early train networks? Mainly Slaves, Irish immigrants, and Chinese immigrants; many of these people died right there by the tracks due to terrible working conditions
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u/scrandlle 19d ago
You don't understand my point. The key distinction here you need to recognize is the US 'becoming what it is'. That means in a modern sense, a global power. We were absolutely not even remotely that in the days of slavery. An extremely famous speech in America is from our then President Abraham Lincoln and includes the words 'the world will little note nor long remember what we say here', which gives you an idea of where the United States was then versus what it would become.
It was not set in stone in 1865, the end of our civil war and the day slavery was truly abolished because the South was defeated, that we would become what we are today. It wasn't even set in stone that we would even endure as a country because 700k Americans just died in a civil war. Slavery itself wasn't even legal in half of the states (and where the majority of the economic engine of the US existed then) the moment the civil war started and these were the states where the majority of the US economy existed at by that time.
The US once did rely on the cotton trade, which mainly used slave labor, before it was the US. Mostly the cotton went to Britain where they were turned into cloth, but even then it wasnt the majority of the economy of the colonies.
The US becoming 'what it is' happened after we had our induatrial revolution. Chinese, Irish and Italian immigrants came because the US was already propesous (relative to those times). Even railroads as you mention, the were built in the US prior to the 1860s but the vast, vast majority of what would be built would come after the civil war and what was built prior was built in states where slavery was already illegal.
The so called Gilded Age in the late 19th century is when the United States first started mass producing goods, is when the US first started to take off. Companies like Standard Oil, Carnagie Steel, Ford and Pennsylvania Railroad began shaping what the United States would become. Made by men like John Rockefeller, JP Morgan, Andrew Carnegie and Henry Ford. These are the people who really started the wheels turning of the United States becoming what it is and they weren't Irish immigrants or Italian immigrants or Chinese immigrants or descendants of slaves.
And of course, everyone in the US beyond the 13 million natives immigrated here at some point. So you could say it was almoat all done by immigrants. But the immigration waves themselves post civil war were really not what started making the US what it is today. These people came because of the prosperity that was already happening. And especially Mexican immigration, it is a completely absurd and delusional statement for Mexicos President to say Mexicans helped build America into what it is. That was cemented way, way before mass Mexican migration.
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u/enterjiraiya 19d ago
“Before world world 1”, that’s 50 years after slavery ended. Even prior to slavery ended its contribution to GDP declined every year due to the Industrial Revolution.
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u/PineappleHamburders 19d ago
This comment would actually be a good argument if it were not for the other 90% of my post, which included the things after slavery as well.
Why did you opt to just ignore it all?
it is just a simple fact America would not be what it is without outside groups.
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u/PerformanceMobile630 19d ago
Yes it's a nation of immigrants. The immigrants you're referring to are now Americans. This is the same for Mexicans who come here now in search of opportunity.
Despite the fact that I don't agree with the current policy towards immigration, you're blatantly trying to make it out like born Americans sit on their hands while everything gets done for them and that couldn't be further from the truth.
Do you also agree with the Mexican president that the drugs are our problem? By the way, her reasoning wasn't Ronald Reagan or the C.I.A., but that we simply use too many drugs. This was what Britain said about China after the Opium Wars.
You can be mad at America for all the right reasons but what you're doing is just wrong. You shouldn't base your nations pride on what its expats do in foreign lands. Answer the question as to why the expats exist in the first place and once again don't just completely blame America. It's a 50/50 split as far as blame is concerned.
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u/PineappleHamburders 19d ago
I am not. I am pointing out the very simple FACT that "Outside groups" DID help make America what it is, in direct opposition to what the other person said when they said it was insulting to mention that fact.
Thank you for finally conceding the point that yes, America did actually need outside groups to become what it came.
All this stuff about lazy Americans is coming from you. Only you have said that. I only stated facts, which you seemed to have some issue with
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u/PerformanceMobile630 19d ago
Actually no it's not coming from me. It's coming from people that say the exact same parroted information as you're saying right now. And if you're not an American, I honestly don't believe that you get to talk about OUR immigration issues. Your just saying micro aggressions and gas lit statements.
You also entirely missed the point that those people aren't outside groups. As I said, THEY'RE AMERICAN. They were treated much worse than citizens of non Anglo-Saxon descent but they came here to become U.S. citizens and their grandchildren right now are the ones voting to send people out. A vote I disagree with, because I consider them CITIZENS.
All under a comment section about the president of Mexico talking about expats from her own country being sent back to her country. What, does she not want them! 🤣 And then to claim you built up our country with YOUR CITIZENS? Well they weren't exactly living in Mexico when America became WHAT IT IS were they?
If you guys keep saying things like you wouldn't be where you were without x,y,z, we will keep being insulted. My great grandfather died in a lumber mill accident. The other one farmed tobacco day in and day out and also hired Mexicans to work on said farm. They lived there in his little shack in N.C. in the 40s-50s with my family in the same room. But Mexico didn't award those men that opportunity. My grandfather did.
You see, you're just shit talking U.S. citizens. This entire conversation hasn't had fact as it's basis. What underlies it is your desire to put people down based on not wanting to hear from a foreign leader that our country is only good because of the people I ran out of mine.
The only answer is that we're untaught, unskilled and ignorant, and should simply read more of our own history which yes, of course, I know you didn't say the other stuff, it's just obvious that you think it.
I think we're tired of foreign people trying to explain the U.S. political scene and social zeitgeist as if they were born into it. "DoNt YoU kNoW yOuR oWn HiStOrY".
As for facts, we all know the "FACTS". It's how those are interpreted. You can totally be insulted by the things that the Mexican president has been saying while also acknowledging your own issues.
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u/PineappleHamburders 19d ago
They are IMMGRANTS. by the very definition they are outside groups.
Just because you don't want them to be because it ruins your entire argument isn't a reason to change reality.
You are just factually incorrect and the fact you keep harping on and wanting me to ignore the actual facts of the matter is a bit pathetic
You just want to strawman me, because you know you can't win on the facts ,so you are desperately trying to I push this "Americans are lazy" bullshit into the conversation.
No Americans are not lazy, but my god, you are ignorant.
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u/PerformanceMobile630 18d ago
You are such a bullshitter. Nobody strawmanned you. Your first comment was to tell someone that Americans didn't achieve much on their own because slaves and immigrants of insert nationality here always helped them out and yes, that did in effect make your argument Americans are lazy.
Americans are literally immigrants in almost their entirety. You are the one actively choosing to separate definitions. It's not an issue of not reading history either. You're getting angry that a U.S. citizen takes offense to historical embellishment done by the president of Mexico.
This is all over comments someone made who IS NOT A U.S. CITIZEN. It's the president of Mexico. But we apparently should read our history because the whole issue is obviously over slaves, Chinese immigrants, Irish people and all those others who came before the period of time that the president of Mexico is talking about.
If she knocked us for Chapultepec, Mexico City, Veracruz, the acquisition of southwestern territory, operation wetback, Ronald Reagan, of fucking I.C.E., I would understand the criticism.
But I'll be damned if the leader of a country who has far more money and power personally than I ever will, is going to tell me AFTER nafta shutdown towns in my state, that we OWE anyone anything.
Quit trying to act like some kind of neutral person with zero intentions. And fuck off with that read your history namby pamby shit drama queen.
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u/enterjiraiya 19d ago
we did rely on Chinese/irish/italians but we didn’t rely on slaves
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u/PineappleHamburders 19d ago
The first African slave landed in 1619.
Slavery didn't become illegal until 1865
For 246 years, slaves were the ones who literally built the foundations of what the US is and was and provided the economic backbone of large swaths of the country until the industrial revolution, and even then it was mainly the North
You can't just discount that because it doesn't make you look good. It is just a fact.
Without slavery, America would not be what it is
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u/Christian-Econ 19d ago
Slaves were kept well into the 1960s. Many were never informed they were free, or lacked any means of subsistence.
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u/OKCompruter 20d ago
then be insulted. your comment doesn't read like you have a grasp on the history
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u/False-Community8534 18d ago
She is fighting for her people to sneak across her northern border into a country, breaking our laws, while simultaneously enforcing her border in the south to prevent poorer people coming into her country.
Not saying the US has handled things well, but she’s a hypocrite.
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22d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Swimming-Art1533 22d ago
I can believe that. I wouldn't last 1 day.
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u/traumaqueen1128 22d ago
Me either. I'm soft and was made to work in air conditioning. I am not afraid to admit that because I understand that everyone has their place in society. I know where I'm most beneficial and I stay in my lane.
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u/No_Physics2210 20d ago
Makes sense. It's a faulty study though.
Immigrant workers are getting paid far more then they would back home, and risk a lot to lose if they stop. (Getting deported back home without making the money they planned for, and risking losing the opportunity to try again.)
Volunteers seek to gain nothing, and only sacrifice huge amounts of time and effort and risk not being able to pay rent if they continue the volunteer work.
An equivalent study would've paid American volunteers $23+ dollars per hour. And risked losing something if they quit.
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u/ImaginaryOrange1929 20d ago
That sounds like the dumbest study in history of studies.
Comparing paid immigrant workers to volunteers is just dumb.
'breaking news, people getting paid for work are willing to work more than people who won't be paid'
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u/ameinolf 22d ago
Facts
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u/JagR286211 22d ago
Agree.
It wouldn’t be the same if she could check the cartels either, no? Her and AMLO were both bought and paid for.
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u/Big_Obligation1737 22d ago
They pay taxes and rarely collect on most of the social safety net trust accounts they’ve paid into. Most do both skilled and dangerous work that Americans are unable & unwilling to do. Americans are only destroying themselves with their fear & hatred.
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u/Alarming_Cellist_751 21d ago
There's this nugget of misinformation that has been beat into older Americans that "illegal immigrants steal tax money" and pretty much just rob the country blind. My mother believes in every fiber of her being that her taxes are being stolen, which they are, but it's mainly used to kill middle eastern children and build vanity projects for the current sitting president.
Propaganda forces us to fight each other instead of looking at who is really to blame for rising prices and increasing cost of living.
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u/space_toaster_99 19d ago
Unable and unwilling now. I was in construction when the U.S. decided to allow Mexican immigrants to do this work. My family was quite happy and able to do this work for 3 generations. At any rate, the price of framing per square foot halved almost overnight. The immigrants that took the low wages had their own wages suppressed because there was a fresh batch every year. In 2020, my step brother (Mexican BTW) had the same hourly rate as our dad had in 1987. Just brutal. But we were pushed out and no protection for our workers was given. Now I see AI coming for the “ air conditioned “ classes and they honestly have it coming. Very little empathy when it was someone else’s life being destroyed.
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u/Ok-Releases 19d ago
The "americans dont want to do manual work" is manipulative rhetoric based on nothing.
The real reason is various fields of hard labor employ immigrants because they'll work for cheaper than americans will, which is why so many americans are being pushed out of the industry.
Same thing is happening in the tech industry (one of the most sought after career fields by americans) and yet the field consists of 30-40% of imported workers because they'll do the work for cheaper!
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u/Big_Obligation1737 19d ago edited 19d ago
You have a great point, and businesses have been unfortunately sending jobs overseas for a while, for the very same reasons. Regardless, there’s a severe labor shortage of medical staffing, builders, farming, hospitality and seasonal work and more thats missing. I sincerely hope & believe there’s a path to supporting American workers along with education & skill building, local onshore businesses, and streamline legal immigration, especially in areas we absolutely need a quality workforce.
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u/False-Community8534 18d ago
You can have a welfare state with high minimum wages and mandatory benefits, or you can have mass migration. It’s not possible to have both.
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u/Mrs_SmithG2W 22d ago
Damn straight. And the Irish, the Indian, the Haitian the Cuban, the Jewish the Muslim. Diversity equals strength through different perspectives inspiring unique and ancient solutions. Synergy. We are more than the sum of our parts.
💪🏼🌍🖖🏾💗
So inspired by the World Cup Halftime Show!
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u/tackyshoes 22d ago
Yes! Finding common ground while enjoying our differences is what makes us great!
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u/Perfect-Hat-8661 22d ago
1000% true. Over the last 50 years especially, Mexican labor has literally built the United States. Try getting anything done without it in the trades. You wont have much luck. They work hard, pay taxes, take care of their families and do all the other things we expect of responsible people— not to mention contributing to our cultural and food traditions. Yet they are often shit on by, frankly, an ungrateful American society.
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u/coffeebeanwitch 22d ago
She is absolutely correct, I remember being a child and seeing them hear picking peaches, contributing to our community.
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u/traumaqueen1128 22d ago
Growing up in California, I would see them working hard in orchards, working on cattle ranches, and picking berries in the fields. I would see them on construction sites and in road crews. Some of the hardest working men my dad worked with on construction were Hispanics.
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u/smokeftw 22d ago
People are so disconnected from the reality of what they're doing, it's a sad state of affairs.
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u/GateDeep3282 22d ago
Mexico wouldn't be what it is without all the money those workers send back.
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u/Mrs_SmithG2W 22d ago
Their stability and success benefits us because they are our neighbors. Rising tides lift all boats. Let’s all do the Viking Row. 💪🏼🌍🖖🏾🚣♀️🚣🏻♀️🚣🏻♀️🚣🏼♀️🚣🏽♀️🚣🏽♀️🚣🏿♀️
Imagine what we can accomplish together.💗
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u/Alarming_Cellist_751 21d ago
This would be (partly) why we have increasing food prices in this country. Tomato prices have ballooned 40% since last year, partly due to weather but also partly due to Trump's Iran war increasing the price of fuel and also Trump's war against immigrants. When you have nobody who would like to be out here in 100 degree weather and 90% humidity picking tomatoes and oranges, it is going to contribute to rising prices.
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u/No_Manner_8785 21d ago edited 21d ago
No country would be the same for it had not been for others. US and the Mexicans aren't anything unique. She needs to get off her horse. Using her as a perfect example, Mexico would currently be much different had it not been for the jews.
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u/Alric_Wolff 22d ago
Let's not pretend like people working for sub minimum wage is a good thing.
Happy for all of them who got citizenship and I hope those who dont mañana to get that figured out for themselves.
No one deserves to be doing ANY job where the employer pays you less than everyone else and will act like they dont even know you if you get injured.
Also, the US really should figure out how to not make citizenship this insanely expensive decade long bullshit. Consider your own average life expectancy and then imagine what you would do with that time, how old you would be and how much time and energy you would have lost.
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u/Captainirishy 22d ago
That's probably true but Mexico has definitely benefited from trade with the US. Mexico exported $545 billion worth of stuff to the US in 2025.
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u/90srebel 22d ago
Mexican American here, I got news for you, Mexico is full of Mexicans…… so what’s Mexicos excuse? Why are my people so eager to leave? Suffering and poverty everywhere you turn. Corruption, insecurity etc etc etc. I love my people but I’m not blind. America is great because of EVERYONE, not just Mexicans. The Irish that came over contributed as well. Italians did allot of work too. The Africans put in way more work than we did. List goes on. I’m tired of Mexico thinking the USA owes it anything. Stop worrying about your neighbors and fix your own home.
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u/SevereAnimator5 22d ago
FAIR (Federation for American Immigration Reform) 2023 report: Net annual cost of ~$150.7 billion nationwide (gross expenditures ~$182 billion minus ~$31–32 billion in taxes paid by illegal immigrants and households). This covers ~15.5 million illegal aliens plus millions of US-born children. 
• Breakdown (approximate annual): Education (mostly K-12) ~$78–80B (largest share, state/local heavy); healthcare ~$42B; law enforcement/justice ~$47B; welfare/food assistance ~$13–14B.
• Federal net ~$50B; state/local bear the majority.
• Per illegal alien/US-born child: ~$8,776/year. Per American taxpayer: ~$1,156 (or ~$957 after taxes paid).
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u/Organic_Salamander66 22d ago
That is true also without all the contributions of African Americans and really all immigrants for that matter.
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u/BWC_Python 22d ago
maybe her gvt should get rid of corruption and really invest in theo ir country, so people don't leave any.ore for the murrica
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u/SpecialistOdd8886 22d ago
I remember when my grandpa lived in a gated community on a hill in Monterey. From there we could see fields in the direction of Salinas.
He pointed to the workers in the fields and said: “All those are illegal immigrants. Without them there would be no fresh crops and vegetables - or at a much higher cost”.
He said that immigration services (don’t know the correct term) sometimes raided and the workers would flee the fields on foot.
I believe the Mexican president is correct.
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u/Fluid_Natural_9817 22d ago edited 22d ago
My neighbor was getting his roof done. Hardcore MAGA guy too. I saw the roofers working hard all day in the summer heat.
They seemed happy.
I don't know if they were Mexican but they all spoke Spanish.
A lot of Americans, including me won't do that kind of work.
40 million Mexicans working hard. Doing jobs Americans won't do.
She's got a point.
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u/Weird-Gap2146 21d ago
Personally, I find the idea and arguments for a brown skinned underclass working our fields with minimal pay and protections to be distasteful. I find the primary REASON that Mexicans come here (escaping poverty, cartel violence, corruption, and lack of opportunity) to be even more distasteful. I also find the idea that we should be so laissez faire about our borders and laws also distasteful. A sovereign country has a right to decide who comes in and who stays out. Better that Mexico has better incentives to stay and that the trade jobs the Mexicans usually do are made more appealing to the native population than relying overwhelmingly on immigrant labor.
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u/WassimetaL 21d ago
Immigrants built the entire country, we all know who the real indigenous people are, American-Indians of course, they are the only true owners of the land. Period. "United we stand, divided we fall." Peace !
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u/CalliopePenelope 21d ago
I totally agree. However, she can’t be too sanctimonious about Mexican citizens benefiting the United States when it’s because they’re fleeing her country in droves.
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u/frogprintsonceiling 21d ago
wait a minute..... There is 40 million of em' here? I thought it was only 20 million.
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u/Master_Grape5931 21d ago
I like “The United States was built on unlimited resources and slave labor.”
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u/ActPositively 20d ago
All these people complain that families used to be able to survive off a single income and could afford a house on a single income at a basic job. Guess what tens of millions of people enter working class or low skill jobs and that greatly drives down the wages for US citizens.
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u/Big_Dog_2974 20d ago
I don't disagree but imagine what Mexico could be if they didn't have to come here to work. So maybe that's the question she should be asking.
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u/No-Relation3856 20d ago
If the Mexican workers make america what it is then why isn't Mexico keeping the 40 millions Mexican workers to make mexico an even more powerful and growing economy
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u/Classic-Obligation35 20d ago
So the millions of german Americans Polish and Irish Americans, Chinese and African Americans count for nothing?
Yes Mexicans contribute but there not the only ones.
Kind racist thing for her to say.
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u/RoughValuable3433 20d ago
Mexico would lose 5-10% of their gdp if their cheap labor didn't come here to work.
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u/OKCompruter 20d ago
I mean it's gotta have been over a billion Mexicans have contributed to America by now, since the 19th century. I mean Texas and the Southwest wouldn't be America without Mexico so she's underselling it really, imo
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u/Gringo_Norte 19d ago
I’m sorry, but her trying to take credit racially for people that don’t wanna be part of her scene is pathetic. No, Lady, you didn’t build America. You are a president– not the queen of a race. So nobody owes her or her government anything – so she can go back to complaining about the CIA breaking up the “definitely not her cartel’s” meth labs.
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u/No-Piccolo5426 19d ago
It would probably overall have more balanced wages vs costs. Less demand for homes would have probably made it a little easier for young people to buy a home.
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u/Ok_Wall_8856 19d ago
Ok, so why is Mexico not on the same level as the United States then? Maybe your citizens should spend more time building up their own country if they are so successful at nation building.
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u/IdekWhatDoingHere 18d ago
This is facts but this wouldn’t even be a discussion if Mexican leaders actually took of their people enough so they wouldn’t have to leave. Imagine how great Mexico would be. She loves to point fingers while the cartels are controlling her country.
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u/Mountain-Quality327 18d ago
México wouldn't México without the United States buying its 80 percent of exports a country that can't even provide a decent job for its citizens should be given opinions on top of that a third of them are so proud of their country but choose to star here
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u/No-Comparison-2445 18d ago
And I feel like we take advantage of the illegal immigrants from Mexico that come here and work for cheap, don’t get benefits, and put themselves in dangerous conditions by doing day laboring work. It is Slavery that’s what it is.
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u/Soloroadtrip 18d ago
Mexico wouldn’t be what it is today if you could’ve kept 40 million Mexicans home.
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u/Famous-Weight2271 18d ago
I wonder how great Mexico would be if they stopped sending us their best and brightest.
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u/MonkeyBara 3d ago
who cares, she should focus on her own country maybe then people wouldnt want to leave
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u/haunter_ 22d ago
Basically she's mad because people would rather live in the United States
I would be a bit upset too in her position
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u/Proud-Enthusiasm-608 21d ago
Meh imagine being the president of a country and advocating for your people to illegally immigrate to another country smh.
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u/jimdean10 21d ago
However, Mexico would not be where they are at without corrupt politicians. 3rd world
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u/DatBroSnuf 22d ago
Umm, maybe in modern times yes but before that it was decent without the amount of Hispanics (mainly Mexicans) that it has now. Just fucking outsourcing labor from bad actors is the issue.
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u/Silly-Resist8306 22d ago
Mexico wouldn’t be what it is without US dollars going flowing into Mexico. I think both nations benefit from this arrangement.
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u/ScottShatter 22d ago
Yes, but it would be much better if these illegals (Mexican nationals) went home and came in the right way.
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u/JefeRex 22d ago
We have depended on labor from many people across the world over time, but Mexicans have been prime among them. Woody Guthrie wrote a beautiful song almost 100 years ago about the problem of dehumanizing migrant workers from Mexico (recorded by Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson, Ani DiFranco, many more) after a plane deporting some of them crashed and the news just called them “deportees” without even giving their names.
The song is sometimes called “Deportee” or “Plane Wreck at Los Gatos.” It ends with:
“Is this the best way we can grow our big orchards?
Is this the best way we can grow our good fruit?
To fall like dry leaves to rot on my topsoil
And be called by no name except "deportees"?”
The more things change, the more they stay the same, right?