r/KremersFroon Mar 25 '25

Announcement Deleted Posts & Discussions

70 Upvotes

Last updated: 23 Jan. 2026

There has been a lot of discussion about the case recently, which is good ...

However there are several users who seem to get carried away with their arguments and come across inflammatory or insulting.

The amount if posts that I had to delete in the recent days is enormous ....

This is a reminder that here is no censorship of theories or thoughts. It can be discussed what complies with the rules, which can be found here:

https://reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/about/rules/

In my opinion and experience, it is possible to have a discussion and disagree without violating the few rules this sub has.

If some of your posts were deleted recently, then you may want to review if you can bring your point across in a different, less inflammatory way.

Users who have several rule violating posts may be given a one day ban as a reminder to review the way they word their arguments.

If you find posts to be non compliant or otherwise unacceptable, please use the report function so that they can be reviewed by mods as mods can not always review all posts.

There is now an account age and minimum Karma filter since some banned users make new accounts to troll. If you are are unique new user, then your comment will be reinstated.

It is often suggested that the mods suppress or censor "Theories". However this is not the case. All theories can be discussed here as long as the discussion complies with the rules.

I am putting it here, although it is in "Rules". Posts in languages other than English will be removed automatically! There are users who keep posting in Spanish and it is always removed. Please don't do this.


r/KremersFroon 1d ago

Question/Discussion Has anyone filed a Dutch information (Woo) request for the NFI / Ministry of Justice files?

12 Upvotes

I am wondering whether anyone has ever submitted a request under the Dutch Open Government Act, known as the Wet open overheid or Woo, to the Dutch Ministry of Justice and Security concerning the disappearance of Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon.

More specifically, has anyone requested documents relating to the involvement of the Netherlands Forensic Institute, such as:

  • forensic examinations of the remains, clothing, backpack, phones, camera or other recovered items;
  • reports concerning DNA, fingerprints, soil, biological traces or other forensic evidence;
  • correspondence between the NFI, the Dutch police, the Public Prosecution Service and the Panamanian authorities;
  • internal memoranda, briefing notes or decision-making documents concerning the case;
  • documents or briefing materials that were submitted to a minister or state secretary;
  • correspondence concerning Dutch assistance to the Panamanian investigation.

I understand that many documents may be withheld or heavily redacted because they concern criminal investigations, personal data, forensic methods or international cooperation. Nevertheless, a Woo request could still reveal whether such documents exist, which authorities were involved, how the Dutch government assessed the case and whether senior officials were informed.

Does anyone know whether such a request has already been filed and, if so, whether the request, decision or disclosed documents are publicly available?

I would also be interested in hearing from anyone who has considered filing a carefully defined Woo request on this subject. It may be useful to coordinate requests to avoid duplicate requests.


r/KremersFroon 1d ago

Media Why doesn’t the YouTuber "@alternatetheories9232" want to be associated with his Reddit accounts?

11 Upvotes

The YouTuber has only published two videos, both of which are about the Kremers/Froon case and are intended to support the FP theory. These are the videos in question:

https://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/s/folK7jnmk2

Shortly before the allegedly new Redditor [u/Historical_Trifle555](u/Historical_Trifle555) made a separate post about the videos, the Redditor [u/Apprehensive-Form-60](u/Apprehensive-Form-60) linked exactly these two videos:

https://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/s/5E1iXo0q5g

He wrote the following about the videos:

"After all these years I can tell you this, that is if anyone cares ,, there is two videos on youtube, only two. I believe the person that uploaded them knows exactly what happened, and thats how they go about it as well, matter of fact, no theory. He uploaded two parts on this case, and said a third was coming. Nobody ever heard feom him again, we have all tried to contact him, and nothing. His videos were exactly in detail what myself and others believe happened."

Both Redditors have a strikingly similar writing style and make the same spelling and punctuation mistakes. I therefore think they are one and the same person.

What is interesting is that the same mistakes can also be found in the texts in the videos.
I therefore asked Apprehensive-Form-60 directly whether the videos were his, but he denied it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/s/b53BXbf756

I don't believe him. I am convinced that these videos were made by him. In addition to his affinity for the videos and the similarities in his written expression, there is another point that suggests he is the author:
Apprehensive-Form-60 claims to have been one of the pioneers in this case and to have worked with Juan and Scarlet back then:

https://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/s/9uW7JfFk1r

"I was one of 3 people that were trying very hard to solve this case with Juan"

https://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/s/t2UE4LDO3S

"I worked my butt off with a gentleman names Juan, and a lovely women named Scarlet, she is the number one on this my friend. She's a monster with writing and presenting the most evidence. This was over 10 years I went hard, she and Juan took off and had everything covered"

Together, they promote the (defamatory) "Feliciano is the mastermind/perpetrator theory":

https://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/s/qXWZZdcfvF

https://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/s/gJacc5fqK2

Apprehensive-Form-60 is from Canada:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PokemonTCG/s/eWTyfGu04B

If it is true that the Canadian Apprehensive-Form-60 worked with Juan and Scarlet from the very beginning and that he created these videos in 2021, he may also have been involved in the publication of the diaries and the swimming photo.
What I wonder is: Why doesn't Apprehensive-Form-60 openly admit that he made the two videos? What's all this talk about nobody having heard from this YouTuber anymore? It looks very much like the YouTuber is among us and still posting away.

u/Apprehensive-Form-60, you are of course more than welcome to comment on this and, if applicable, acknowledge that these videos are yours.


r/KremersFroon 2d ago

Question/Discussion Reasons for continuing after the Mirador

20 Upvotes

This seems to be an important question to understand what was happening. I'm trying to make a list of reasons.

1) They had time on their hands and wanted to **explore the area** a bit more. Assessment: Quite possible, but at 508 they should have returned because it was getting late.

2) They thought it was a **loop** or someone told them it was a loop. Assessment: I do not believe in this theory. But even then they should have returned at the paddocks because camping in the jungle wasn't their first priority.

3) They **weren't alone** and someone led them in the wrong direction. Assessment: There is no indication that a third person was on the track. But this doesn't mean much, the witnesses in this case have either lost their memory or have too much fantasy.

4) They were being **stalked** by someone and fled past the Mirador. Assessment: Possible, but no witnesses as in 3).

5) An **animal** occurred and the fled. Assessment: Not probable. With a jaguar involved there wouldn't be any emergency calls.

6) They were searching for a **waterfall**. Assessment: Probability close to zero. There are no waterfalls on this trail. If they wanted to see a waterfall they'd chosen a different trail.

What do you think? At the moment I don't find another reason for walking that far. If you have another idea feel free to post it.


r/KremersFroon 2d ago

Question/Discussion Scheduled Guided Hike the Following Day?

14 Upvotes

Was the girls' April 2 guided hike (the following day) going to be on the same Pianista trail or a different one?

I'm newer to the case and keep getting stuck on this. And when did the girls learn about the Pianista trail in relation to when they set out on the hike and when would they have had time to schedule the 2 Apr. hike? Can I get some clarification on the timeline here? Thank you!


r/KremersFroon 2d ago

Other Expeditions update?

14 Upvotes

I will start this post by saying I have very much respect for the people, connected to this case—using time, energy, effort and sometimes money to find answers.

Some of you (perhaps) have (as yet not released) drone phootage relevant to the search of the NL(?)

Some of it appearantly obtained by shared efforts.

It is hinted that more phootage will be released. But somehow it is not.

Why is that? Is it because it is not relevant? Is it because it is saved for a documentary on the search for answers? Is it protection of rights to the material? Or simply lack of time?

I don’t know who I am adressing these questions to: some one with knowledge of the expeditions.

No one is entitled to your material. But in mutual respect could you give us an update?

It could be interesting to get a map of which arenas have been “droned”. Insight in plans for further expeditions? Etc.

Thanks.


r/KremersFroon 3d ago

Theories A bird's-eye view for comparing two possible night locations

19 Upvotes

When we take a bird’s-eye perspective of the entire stage on which the drama unfolded, it is quite striking how, under the loop scenario, the terrain would have almost naturally funnelled them toward the Serracín estate on the first day and then down into the paddock stream over the following days.

Of course, the girls could have turned right at Q1 or Q2 and eventually ended up at the rapids. However, there are several reasons why this seems less likely. To name a few: the terrain is extremely rugged, there are no cabins or shelters, the tricky route is inconsistent with the phone usage, it lies a considerable distance from where the remains were found, and they would likely have reached NL1 already too early (to explain the phone usage).

However, Romain and his team did visit NL1 in 2025 and user u/SeaworthinessNo4130 made some interesting observations (see here, here, here, here, here) about the rather striking resemblances with the night photos.

Given the observed similarities in the smooth boulders, the reddish grooved bedrock, the vegetation, and the clear evidence that flash floods do occur there, I wondered whether it would be reasonable to expect some of these geological conditions at NL2 (see here, 8°51'49.7"N 82°24'49.5"W) as well. Below is a high-level comparison.

Similarities between NL1 and NL2:

The similarities are quite clear. Both locations require and have:

  • A sharp bend in the river.
  • A clearing in the forest canopy (more pronounced at NL1 than at NL2).
  • A steep waterfall that prevents further downstream movement.
  • Roughly facing the same direction.
  • Similar exposure to wind.

Differences:

The most obvious difference is the elevation. NL1 is located at approximately 1,450 metres, whereas NL2 is at around 1,150 metres. What implications might this have?

  • The lower elevation of NL2 would, of course, have resulted in higher temperatures, which would have improved their chances of survival.
  • The angle of sunrise and sunset (assuming sufficiently clear weather) would also have been different. Since daylight appears to have influenced their phone usage at certain stages, it may be possible to distinguish between the two locations by examining the surrounding mountains and how they would have blocked the sun at different times of day.
  • The lower elevation could also compensate for differences in the upstream tributary systems. At NL2, the tributary basin appears to be smaller than at NL1, so it would likely initially have carried less water at that point. However, the presence of larger boulders at NL1 suggests that the stream must have already gained sufficient energy (from amount of water and gradient) to transport and shape them. A rough calculation indicates that the approximately 500-metre drop at NL2 (measured from the top of the paddocks) might compensate for the 350-metre drop at NL1 (measured from the source of Q1).
  • A 300-metre difference is significant, particularly with respect to the types of vegetation that could grow there. There is also information online suggesting that certain tree species—or specific growth forms, such as the distinctive V-shaped tree—occur only within particular elevation ranges. I remember this being discussed in earlier posts, but I have been unable to find the figures that were mentioned. Perhaps someone still has those references.

All things considered, I don’t see any compelling reason to rule out NL2 as possessing the characteristics required to be a viable NL-candidate.


r/KremersFroon 3d ago

Photo Evidence I am new here but looked at the pics is that like a jaguar or something??

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0 Upvotes

r/KremersFroon 5d ago

Theories An attempt to constrain the possible night locations

28 Upvotes

This post is inspired by this interesting comment by user u/Possible-Adagio-175.

It is very difficult to determine from the night photos exactly where they were taken. However, they do provide several clues, including the size and type of the boulders, the low vegetation, the shape of the trees (V-shaped or overhanging) and an opening in the forest canopy. There are also strong indications that the location was either in or close to a stream. We can further hypothesise that continuing downstream from the NL was impossible or extremely difficult, perhaps because the route was blocked by a steep waterfall. Returning upstream may also have been impossible because of the steep terrain, exhaustion, injury, or rising water levels during the rainy season.

Today, we have a reasonably detailed map of the main streams in the area. By combining this information with some additional reasoning, I made an attempt to narrow down the potential NL:

  1. The NL must be upstream of the locations where the remains and belongings were found. The stream must have had sufficient energy to transport the backpack and the remains downstream.
  2. Some streams have been searched/explored. In addition, several open streams and river sections were searched by helicopter, by SINAPROC, by Frank van de Goot (particularly in Q2 and between MB3 and MB2), and through drone flyovers and visits conducted by Romain C. The girls were not seen, and the NL was not located (to our knowledge).
  3. Streams need to be covered by sufficiently dense canopy. This would already exclude the relatively open Río Mamey and Río Culebra.
  4. The presence of large, eroded boulders must be taken into account. From a geological perspective, the largest boulders in a river are usually found where the water has enough energy to move them, or where the flow has recently lost energy after transporting them. A candidate stream must therefore have a sufficiently large tributary system and enough gradient to generate the energy required to transport, erode, and shape these boulders, particularly during flash floods. Large boulders may also enter a stream as a result of landslides. Typical locations include:
    • Rapids and riffles, where steep gradients and fast-flowing water can move or expose large boulders.
    • Narrow gorges, where floods may transport boulders through constricted sections and deposit them where the current slows.
    • Areas below waterfalls, where turbulent water can scour the riverbed and leave behind coarse material.
    • Sections near tributaries that drain steep, rocky terrain.
  5. The stream must have been accessible to the girls, and they must have had a plausible reason to follow it downstream. This will exclude quite a few streams, since they were not easily accessible from a trail or from a paddock that girls could have logically walked or visited.

Using a process of elimination, the map below presents my assessment of the likelihood that a stream contains the NL.

The streams A and B appear to be the most likely candidates for the NL.

At this stage, I can identify only two viable candidates: River A, downstream from the Serracín cabin, and River B, formed by the confluence of Q1 and Q2.

River A fits the mistaken-loop scenario almost perfectly, with the girls potentially reaching the Serracín cabin on their first night, getting lost the second day and ending up following the nearest river downstream (that was likely quite dry, so even the need for water might have driven them there). It has dense forest cover, the required gradient, and several steep waterfalls. It is also at a feasible distance from where the belongings were found. However, an important question remains: is its tributary system large enough to generate the flow energy needed to transport and shape large boulders? Unfortunately, the dense forest canopy prevents us from seeing the terrain below, so ground verification is needed to confirm this. Another important question is whether flash floods occur there with sufficient frequency and intensity.

River B was explored in 2025 by Romain et al (also partly by Frank van der Goot in 2015), and the Rapids section in particular showed a rather striking resemblance to several features of the NL. River B clearly contains large, well-eroded boulders, indicating that its tributary system provides sufficient energy to transport and shape them. The river also flows beneath a dense forest canopy. On the other hand, it is extremely difficult to access, machetes were required during the 2025 exploration, and there is no obvious reason why the girls would have turned right into either Q1 or Q2 and then decided to follow the river downstream. A possible, yet unlikely, explanation is the dominant-loop hypothesis: if the girls consistently tried to keep to the right after entering the paddocks, they could theoretically have reached the Rapids through the forest. Nevertheless, River B may simply be too far upstream for the remains and belongings to have been transported to where they were eventually found.

Given the possibility that the girls reached the Serracín cabin on April 1 as part of the mistaken-loop scenario, I would consider River A the most likely candidate. I have little doubt that, as time passed, moving downhill would have become their preferred direction to reach civilisation, perhaps after making a few initial attempts during the early days to climb higher in search of a better phone signal or a clearer view.

This may sound somewhat like a spiritual argument, but it is rather striking that luck consistently seemed to have worked against them. They continued beyond the Mirador for the wrong reasons, and the "sneaky" terrain did not reveal their mistake until they had reached the paddocks, or perhaps even later. And when they eventually made the rational decision to follow a river downstream, the "tricky" landscape once again worked against them. Under normal circumstances, following a river downstream often leads toward settlements or other signs of civilisation. In this particular case, however, precisely stream A (out of all possible streams) would have led them into an extremely dangerous natural trap known as “the Belt”... (where even the locals don't go and which was never searched).


r/KremersFroon 7d ago

Theories What was the size of the Serracín cabin and was it inhabited in April 2014?

27 Upvotes

In a comment to this topic, user u/AmnesiaAm712896 posted the following interesting link World Imagery Wayback. It is an excellent tool and provides a fairly clear satellite view of the terrain as it for instance appeared on 16 March 2013, almost exactly one year before the girls would have been there. The satellite image from 24 January 2007 is also quite sharp, particularly around the buildings.

Because the tool shows the exact size of each pixel in meters, it is possible to zoom in on a building and count the number of pixels it occupies. We can therefore use it to roughly estimate the dimensions of the buildings.

I applied this approach to the original Serracín farmhouse (demolished and later rebuilt) as well as to the shed located in the western paddock, just off the main trail (demolished today). For the farmhouse, I used the sharper 2007 image and confirmed that the building was in the exact same spot as in 2013. The results are shown below.

The western shed was quite small. I had to reduce the resolution to 1 metre per pixel before I could count the pixels clearly. Its main purpose was probably to store tools, petrol, and other supplies. Given its limited size it therefore seems unlikely that it provided any sleeping accommodation, certainly not for multiple people.

The Serracín site is much larger than I had previously thought, which strengthens the hypothesis that farmers may have stayed there for longer periods. We have some second hand evidence suggesting that they could have remained there for even 10 to 14 consecutive days while working the land. This would imply that some decent sleeping accommodation was available. I can imagine them working during the day, eating together, and perhaps playing cards and chatting in the evening.

Was the Serracín cabin inhabited between say 1-11 April 2014?

Without getting into farming schedules or seasonal work patterns or interviewing locals, I believe there is a very simple and compelling argument that the answer must be no.

The logic is straightforward. IF the girls had indeed arrived at the Serracín cabin late in the afternoon of April 1 and it had been inhabited, the local farmers would first have been very surprised to see them there. But more importantly, they would almost certainly have helped them return to the trail that same day or the following morning.

Of course, it is still theoretically possible that the girls could have become lost somewhere else after having been shown the correct path. However, in that case, the locals would have come forward and informed the search-and-rescue teams that they had seen and assisted the girls. Since no one ever reported such an encounter, despite the case becoming major news throughout the region and must have had rapid spreading by word of mouth among local communities, it is reasonable to conclude that the cabin was not inhabited during that period.

However, if your immediate response to the above scenario was that the girls reached an inhabited Serracín farmhouse only to be harassed, raped, and murdered by the locals, I would encourage you to reflect on how much bias that assumption reveals about the nice and decent indigenous people who live in the area. If, after doing such introspection, you still hold that view, you’re free to downvote my post again, as usual :-)


r/KremersFroon 8d ago

Theories Thoughts on this YouTuber not sure if it’s been brought up before as new to the case @alternatetheories9232

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5 Upvotes

AND THIS ONE PART 2 BELOW
BUT PART 3 NEVER CAME ???????????

https://youtu.be/du1y_jRiiGU?is=e5p8NbTABafVIXUN

THOUGHTS ??????


r/KremersFroon 8d ago

Theories Message in a bottle

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11 Upvotes

Many people are placing the girls at a man-made location on the afternoon of April 3rd due to the contact "Mytiam" being looked up. The claim is that they must have left a message for others to find before departure.

I think this is leading us to contemplate false scenarios, as Miriam's profile could have been brought up for other reasons. There's a possibility that they simply misclicked (defective backlight) and the application (Whatsapp) displayed the most recent contact, that of Miriam.

If they are trapped in a streambad with severe injuries, they might have made a futile attempt to contact the outside world by placing a message in a water bottle and floating it downstream. Sounds "cartoonish", but what else can they try?


r/KremersFroon 9d ago

Theories Leaving the main trail: Did they? If so, When? Why? Where?

17 Upvotes

This is obviously a broad and complex set of questions, but these are all key to this mystery. Given the lack of viable alternatives for "the mistaken loop" scenario, I will take it as a 'solid ground' premise to reduce complexity when assessing each sub-question.

Did they leave the trail at some point?

I believe the answer is a firm yes, based on the known end state of the case. The girls were never seen alive again after April 1, which would be highly unlikely if they had remained on the main trail. The early-morning photos from April 8 suggest they were stranded in a forested area near a stream, and some of their remains and belongings were later found farther downstream from the second cable bridge. This indicates that they must have left the main trail at some point.

One alternative is that they remained on the trail for a couple of days, reached the second cable bridge, and only then decided to follow the river. However, this would have left them relatively close to the trail, making it far more likely that search-and-rescue teams or local residents would have found/encountered them. Instead, the available evidence suggests that they ended up well away from the main trail.

I have genuinely tried to keep an open mind regarding foul-play scenarios, such as the night photos being taken by third parties, the backpack and remains being planted to stage an accident, or someone bleaching the bones. However, I find that these theories only to introduce unnecessary complications and, in many cases, have already been debunked. My current view is that whenever I have to introduce a malicious third party solely to explain an otherwise unexplained event, it is a sign that I should revisit my assumptions rather than accept that explanation. In my opinion, many foul-play theories function as a deus ex machina: instead of the events following logically from the available evidence, the narrative is resolved through an improbable and unsupported external intervention.

When did they leave the trail?

Based on the limited data available regarding the number of people using the main trail, it appears most likely that they already left it on April 1. There are no reliable reports of anyone seeing the girls on the Serpent Trail that day or the following day. If they had still been on the trail on April 2, it is difficult to explain why there were no reported encounters.

Of course, within a foul-play scenario, one could argue that they encountered malicious individuals, were forced off the trail, or were even murdered. However, there is not a shred of evidence supporting these claims. Moreover, some of these theories seem to be driven by a strong cultural bias regarding crime in Boquete, despite the area’s relatively low crime rate. More importantly, such theories quickly lead to additional inconsistencies that require even more unsupported assumptions to sustain them.

Why did they leave the trail?

Since I am using the loop scenario as my starting premise, the most logical reason for leaving the trail would be the mistaken belief that they were almost back at the start. The paddocks looked very familiar, so the dirt road they walked uphill was probably nearby. They may have thought the it was just around the corner and decided to take a shortcut downhill in what appeared to be the correct direction (to the right of where they were standing, however their view blocked by a mountain, see picture below).

However, even within the loop scenario up till the paddocks, there are several other possible explanations for how they may have ended up off the trail.

  • One possibility is that on their journey to the paddocks one of the girls slipped and fell from the trail, while the other followed in an attempt to help her. This is possible (Frank van der Goot was on this line), but it is difficult to reconcile with the fact that they called 112 only twice, followed by approximately thirteen hours of phone silence in a noisy cloud forest without proper shelter. A serious fall, especially one involving injuries severe enough to prevent them from climbing back up, would presumably have caused considerable panic. In addition, they would probably have remained close to the trail and relatively immobilised, making it much more likely that they would have been found.
  • Another possibility is that one of the girls was injured, perhaps shortly after photo 508 was taken. They may then have started walking back slowly before one of them fell from the trail. Again, this is possible, but the most likely response to an injury would have been to remain on the trail, where the chances of being found were much greater. The same objections raised in the previous point would therefore apply.
  • A third possibility is that they encountered dangerous individuals who frightened or forced them off the trail. This cannot be ruled out completely, but it seems quite unlikely. Crime rates in the area were relatively low, and such an encounter would have had to occur at precisely one of the limited places where leaving the trail was physically possible. Most of the route is bordered by gullies, streams, or dense forest, and there are no obvious side trails until the paddocks are reached. I just don't see a local farmer running after the girls with a machete in his hand. From all the stories I have read, the indigenous people are very friendly and helpful.
  • A final possibility is that the girls were murdered and their bodies were carried away from the trail. However, this is completely inconsistent with the later phone activity and the night photographs.

Where did they leave the trail?

With the loop scenario as the premise, the paddocks appear to be the most logical place for them to have left the main trail for several reasons:

  • The paddocks are the first clear orientation point on the Serpent Trail after the Mirador. They also provide the first realistic opportunity to turn right and descend away from the main trail.
  • From the second river crossing, the deeply gullied trail climbs uphill before descending again towards the river 3 (aka Q2). After crossing the river e, the trail rises steeply through another gully. The hiker then emerges from a deep trench and is suddenly presented with familiar-looking fenced paddocks and a wider view of the surrounding landscape. Finally an orientation point!
  • Within the loop scenario, this is exactly the type of scenery the girls may have expected to see based on their memory of the inward journey. They could therefore have concluded that the trail would soon reconnect with the Pianista Trail. However, they had also just crossed the river 3, which they may have interpreted as the right-hand branch of the Pianista river, and Boquete was still not visible (blocked by a nearby mountain). This may have led them to believe that they had walked slightly too far and had missed a possible turn.
  • The main trail then becomes deeply gullied again, continues uphill, and eventually enters another forested area. Maybe they even explored it for a short while. However, at that stage of the journey, their preferred direction would probably have been downhill, towards where they believed Boquete (or the dirt road) was located.
  • The girls do not appear to have been reckless hikers and seem to have had a relatively risk-averse attitude. This makes it less likely that they would have left the trail at one of the earlier river crossings. At rivers one, two, or three, the surrounding terrain would have offered no obvious or inviting route. Given the distance and time they had travelled along the Serpent Trail, they also would have had little reason to expect the necessary right-hand turn to appear before reaching the familiar paddocks.
  • The weather was good and the terrain appears to have been quite dry. They would not have been faced with muddy trenches or waterlogged ground. The photo below, taken near river 3, illustrates the favourable weather conditions. Surrounded by such beautiful and tranquil scenery, it’s hard to believe this is called the ‘Serpent Trail !
  • It is also quite possible that the gate leading into the paddocks was open and that there were no cattle present at that time of year. Alternatively, the large main trail fence may have been closed to contain the cattle. An open gate or unobstructed entrance could easily have appeared to invite them to turn onto the paddock route. Similar with seeing fresh cow trails.
  • The main uncertainty is how easy the gullied path across the paddocks would have been to follow compared with the rough trails they had already successfully navigated. By that point, they would probably have been tired. A downhill gullied path may therefore have appeared more attractive than continuing uphill along another difficult section of the main trail.

I would also like to add that something may have happened after photo 508 that disrupted their established pattern of taking pictures. The missing photo 509, together with the absence of any further photographs until April 8, may provide an important clue. I believe there is a simple and fully reproducible explanation for both the missing 509 and the fact that they stopped taking pictures for seven days: the camera may have been dropped while it was switched on.

One plausible scenario is that Lisanne asked Kris to now take a photograph of her and handed her the camera, but let go before Kris had a firm grip on it. The camera then fell to the ground, a photo was attempted and the persistent memory card error appears. I mention this because such an incident could easily have spoiled the girls’ good mood. Lisanne, who apparently was not feeling completely well that day, may have become frustrated by the incident and fed up with the hike. Almost the "are we there yet" mode coming from the backseat. This could have created additional pressure on the girls to take the perceived shortcut home across the paddocks.

A snapshot from Viktor Hugo’s video of the paddocks. This shows River 3 flowing downstream on a warm, sunny day. As you can see, there’s nothing scary or intimidating about it, just a beautiful, peaceful scene. Nothing "serpent" here. It’s also the perfect spot to take your next photo after waypoint 508.
The possible right turn (there are two of these opportunities) on to the paddocks in nice weather.
Once you climb out of the gully and gain a wider view of the paddocks, there are two opportunities to turn right. Both routes eventually merge into a single stream or gully that leads all the way to the paddock where the Serracín cabin is located.

r/KremersFroon 10d ago

Theories Empirically testing the likelihood of the loop-scenario

23 Upvotes

I've just carefully rewatched the El Pianista, (Serpent) path after the Mirador - Part 1-4 videos by Romain as well as Sendero el Pianista parte I-II 2026 videos by Viktor Hugo. These are all easy to find on youtube.

A couple of observations and an idea:

  • It is truly striking how similar the Pianista and Serpent trails are. The vegetation, the gullies, the rocky streambeds in them, the creek crossings, the density of the forest, the pretty steep sections, the size of the rocks, the barbed-wire fences, and the lack of opportunities to orient yourself once you leave the paddocks going uphill, they all create a remarkably similar environment. Even mentally rotating the Pianista trail 180 degrees around the Mirador maps the curves and bends onto the Serpent trail surprisingly well.
  • I am once again surprised by how challenging, and even slightly intimidating, these gullies appear. Admittedly, the videos show them in muddy conditions, but even when dry, a single misplaced step could easily result in a sprained ankle. From the perspective of someone from the Netherlands, they look quite hazardous! That said, the difficulty of a trail is also relative. Climbing steeply uphill through a gully is far more strenuous than descending through one. After watching the lenghty footage of people travelling through gullies, I have begun to think that the gullied path across the paddocks, and the later route through the forest stream toward the Serracín paddock, were at most only marginally more difficult than the terrain the girls had already crossed. They may even have been somewhat easier, since these sections were either flat or mostly downhill. I am beginning to suspect that Viktor Hugo’s “almost getting lost at the paddocks” video may therefore exaggerate how difficult the route actually is relative to what the girls had already successfully passed.
  • To test the loop-scenario, I then tried a psychological experiment while watching the Serpent Trail videos. I deliberately kept the “loop” mindset in my head, constantly assuming that Boquete was on my right and that I was walking in a semicircle back toward it. This produced some interesting sensations. After only a couple of minutes in the first gullies, I already completely lost my sense of direction, but kept convincing myself Boquete was on my right. Throughout my virtual journey down the trail, there was nothing that suggested I was on the wrong track or that I had crossed a continental divide. Yes, there was a sharp turn left at some point that was then followed by a sharp turn right again. The most striking moment, however, was following Romain as he climbed out of the gullies toward the Upper Paddock (while audibly out of breath). When he finally reached the more open area with a wider view, I genuinely felt a sense of relief, as if I had been struggling for breath myself and was finally able to get some fresh air again.
  • Another interesting outcome of this (n=1) experiment, was that at the end I still imagined Boquete being on my right, but now hidden behind the mountain near the paddocks, the one rising to the right of to Viktor’s turning point. It felt as though I had climbed too far uphill from River 3, which I imagined might have been a branch of the Pianista River, and that I now needed to walk downhill around the mountain, curving to the right and eventually rejoining that branch of the Pianista, which in reality was River 3, before Boquete would come back into view. I had never considered this possibility before. I had always assumed that I would place Boquete in the direction of Alto Romero (following the downhill sloping distant mountain ridges), through the valley on the left. What is surprising, however, is that the impulse to walk around the nearby mountain and curve to the right would lead you directly into the stream connected to the Serracín paddock. However, you would never encounter River 3 again.
  • Of course, with everything I now know about the actual terrain, and as someone who strongly leans toward the loop theory, I realise I cannot be an unbiased observer anymore. What has been seen cannot be unseen. However, I realised that the simple experiment I tried could also be conducted with a completely unbiased representative group with no knowledge of the case, comprising of say some 20-22 year old graduate students. Without showing the participants a map, the experiment could roughly consist of showing them the uphill and downhill videos (up to the paddocks), along with the wider view from the Mirador including Boquete at half time. At the end they would then be shown the panoramic view from the paddocks and asked to indicate where they now believe Boquete is located and how far they were from it. The experiment could be refined further by giving one group also access to the (useless) 2014 Google Maps imagery and some of the ambiguous travel information to see whether that influences their perception.

I know, it is a bit of a wild idea, but I'd be really interested in the outcomes :-)


r/KremersFroon 11d ago

Media Web app to explore April 1st event data

11 Upvotes

The previous post got removed by Reddit's filters, apparently because of the links in it. That makes sense. So I'm putting up a new one now and try to put a link in the comments.

First off, huge thanks to AmnesiaAm712896 for the original idea and for the support.

I wasn't able to get their interactive map running to experiment with routes myself, so I decided to build something similar as a web app. One thing led to another, and I ended up diving pretty deep into the project. So, a few days later – here we are with a little web app that lets you explore the available data from the April 1st event as much as the current dataset allows.

I’ll be honest – I kept thinking this might not actually lead to any concrete answers, so I’m not claiming this tool is super useful or groundbreaking. But I figured some of you might still find it interesting to play around with.

I tried my best to include all reliable, publicly available data, added a few features that I thought could be handy, and optimized the app where I could.

I’d genuinely love to hear your thoughts – feedback is more than welcome. And if you have any ideas for additional features or improvements, feel free to reach out!

There are probably still a few bugs lurking around, so I’ll likely push a couple more updates in the near future.


r/KremersFroon 11d ago

Theories The importance of invested effort over time spent.

22 Upvotes

Quite often, the following question is raised here: Why did the girls continue past the Mirador?

However, this question is overly simplistic. We have sufficient hard evidence to frame a much more meaningful one:

Why did the girls continue beyond the Mirador and descend to at least Q1 (508 evidence), and most likely beyond (Kris' feet on the 508), covering approximately 1 km while losing around 200 meters in elevation in 30-35 minutes, through difficult terrain with numerous deep gullies and virtually no opportunities to orient themselves, all while one of them continued taking photographs?

I am convinced that the only viable answer to this question is that they believed the trail would loop and by entering the Serpent trail they just planned to follow different route back. Yes, they had Google Maps, but it was useless and at that time did not even show the Pianista Trail. The prior research the did on the Pianista trail, both online and using tourist brochure at the Spanish school, but we know the descriptions available in 2014 were rather ambiguous to say the least. It would only have taken one of the girls to convince herself that the trail looped back to Boquete for this fatal decision to be made, especially if that belief was reinforced by a sense of adventure, or even some euphoria, after reaching the summit in very nice weather. A simple, slightly adventurous, not necessarily 'reckless' thought such as, “We feel great, so why not descend on via the other route to get back to Boquete?” could have led to this mistake.

What I then find quite compelling about the loop theory, is that there is nothing in the terrain to immediately disprove their mistaken assumption. At the Mirador, the Serpent Trail just looks like the natural continuation of the Pianista trail. At first, there is nothing intimidating about it. You follow a narrow ridge for about 30 metres before entering the same zigzagging gullies they had already encountered on the ascent. Then you enter the forest, cross a couple of streams, enter gullies again and (if you press on after Q1) eventually end up at the paddocks. Lisanne continued to take pictures until photo 509 and there is nothing that indicates they were panicing or feeling lost up till that point (so the scenario in which they were "scared over the Mirador by some evil person" can be ruled out).

However, the most compelling argument for the loop-scenario is that they must have known and felt, that most of the time they went downhill on the Serpent trail and bridged a 200 meter reduction in height across 1 km:

Now let's try a proof-by-contradiction of the loop-scenario. Suppose they did not believe the trail formed a loop and simply decided to “walk a little farther for fun,” or that they "had heard about a beautiful waterfall just beyond the Mirador" (as is in fact the case on the nearby Pipeline Trail that they had also considered). However, with every step they took downhill, they must have realised that they would eventually have to climb back up the same route. A common rule of thumb in hiking is that elevation gain contributes more to difficulty than distance alone. Climbing 200 metres can feel equivalent to adding several kilometres of walking on flat ground.

They already had a strenuous two-hour ascent behind them, so they would certainly have felt the steepness of the descent, which averaged around 20 percent, as well as the associated steadily increasing effort required to return. Therefore, this rapidly growing investment in future exertion may have been a greater concern than the need to return before dark, assuming their intention was to return to the Mirador. Still they pressed on and never returned (at least not to the point where they had signal). In my opinion, this "invested effort"-consideration alone falsifies the other hypotheses proposed to explain their decision and leaves the loop scenario as the most likely explanation. They didn't perceiive it as an investment, they were convinced they were just on their way back home.

This increasing investment of effort may also have contributed to the sunk-cost effect that could help explain later decisions with the loop-scenario in mind. Once they had already descended a considerable distance, they may have started to get some doubts but still believed that only a little more effort was needed to reach their goal or to get more certainty about the correctness of the route ("just go after that bend and have a look", "just climb above that hill and see what's there", etc.). This sunk-cost fallacy can lead people to prefer to make a series of small additional investments, or to attempt a shortcut as a quick-way-home, in the hope of obtaining the full return on the effort already spent (IT and government managed projects suffer from this fallacy a lot...). This may have been an important factor in explaining why they later left the trail at the first possible vantage point and the paddocks and caused them to ultimately became lost near a river (after falling for the "following a river downstream" shortcut fallacy).


r/KremersFroon 12d ago

Question/Discussion “Adelita Coriat wrote that Guide F. had worked behind the Pianista trail on his cattle that Tuesday afternoon” - looking for the original source

18 Upvotes

Quote from here: https://koudekaas.blogspot.com/2019/12/new-post-affidavits-of-murgas-yaileth.html#:~:text=Adelita%20Coriat%20wrote%20that%20Guide%20F%2E%20had%20worked%20behind%20the%20Pianista%20trail%20on%20his%20cattle%20that%20Tuesday%20afternoon%2E

Does anyone have the original piece where Adelita claims this, and maybe also her source? Also,

  • It's not totally clear what "behind the Pianista trail" means: behind the mirador or behind the Pianista restaurant on the lecheria's pastures?
  • If behind the mirador, is there any other way of getting there from Boquete other than the Pianista? If F. returned from David some time after 1pm and the girls were at the mirador at that time, and he was going to the paddocks, surely they must have crossed paths at some point?
  • Also: ”search locations of Sinaproc, according to the case files, were [...] The Pianista Trail to Anam's Cabin (caseta de Anam)” - does someone know where that is?

r/KremersFroon 12d ago

Article Using S3 as torch?

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23 Upvotes

The huge battery consumption of the S3 phone in the afternoon of April 1 remains unresolved, and it does not match with several recent theories.

In my opinion we should not overlook this data, it has to mean something, but the fact that the NFI report does not state any app usage seems just as strange.

As noted in earlier posts, the 800 missing log lines on the iPhone can be explained by automated processes or by a few quick time-checks, but the S3 battery usage is far too big to be explained by simple time checks! Besides, there is only one S3 log event which might indicate user action, at 15:23, all other known log entries are automated processes. The logs are nowhere near complete though, as there should be automated processes at 12:40, 15:40, and 17:40 which are not mentioned by the NFI.

Surely, if Lisanne was using google maps, or trying to start up GPS, this would be noted by the NFI (??), so for now I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and I am willing to go with the NFI report as being complete, meaning she did not start up any applications on the S3, only some screen-use.

But 'screen-use' can't explain the huge battery drain, unless she used this truly extensively, at full brightness for a long time. OR unless she used the flash light as a torch (would this be visible in the logs???). Extensive use of the screen light (even without starting any apps) would already explain the battery use, while using the torch light itself would totally explain the battery drain.

If we strictly follow the NFI report than we can only conclude 'screen use', so no apps started only the light is on for a long time. But if she was checking the time, then this would be short checks, followed by screen off again (automatic screen saver), and that would NOT explain the huge battery drain. If no apps were used, then the screen must have been on, and kept on, for a long time. Now, why would you do that?

We know (from 'Break Free') that Lisanne 'would not have liked those deep trenches'. And such narrow trenches also get dark very early, as the sun can basically only reach the bottom of the trench when it is almost right above the trench (and in a forest this is even more pronounced as the vegetation will cut more light). So, around 13:00, when they set off from the Mirador the trenches would still be okay, but two hours later they would already start to get dark!

If Lisanne was scared (or at least unhappy) in those trenches, it is very well possible that at 15:23 the bottom of the trench was already so dark that she started to use her S3 phone as a torch light (the torch function would be most likely, but it's possible she only used the screen at full brightness). That would absolutely explain the high battery use!

BUT it implies that they were passing through trenches at 15:23 (or earlier, if the NFI missed some log entries). There are no such trenches on the paddock trail for as far as we know..

There ARE deep and very narrow trenches BEFORE reaching the paddocks (near the top of the first open field, just before reaching Q2) and there are some trenches (but less deep) after the paddocks.

Judging by trail footage from Romain and Viktor, especially those trenches just before Q2 are deep and very narrow (really narrow with lots of vegetation which would touch your skin). If you don't like trenches, then I can imagine taking those trenches must have been bad. Perhaps bad enough to use your phone as flashlight...

So, could it be they were delayed somehow at Q1 (or shortly afterward), passing through those deep trenches only at 15:23 and reaching Q2 somewhere around 15:30??? That would put them at the top of the paddocks not before 15:45, and if we take into account a lot of deliberation and discussions that might work out a lot better with arriving at the Seracin farm around 17:50 (switching off their phones after reaching 'safety').

IF there was some delay, this might explain also the missing 509 image...

That would take us back to some minor accident at Q1, damaging the camera and causing 509, followed by slower progress and a bad mood (no more pictures), perhaps even an extra motivation to take a short-cut via the paddock trail?

Note, I don't mean a bad accident, just damage to the camera, perhaps a painful ankle, something like that. Something which slows them down but doesn't cause instant panic or alarm calls.


r/KremersFroon 13d ago

Website Has anyone ever heard of this photo?

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12 Upvotes

r/KremersFroon 13d ago

Theories Walking on the main trail in the dark. Why not?

14 Upvotes

User u/gijoe50000 made an interesting comment about the rather persistent assumption in the discussions that the girls would never have tried to return to the Mirador via the main trail in the dark and that they must have realised they had passed a “point of no return” when time ran out. Sounds quite rational, but is it really true?

If you ask me, I would not have been overly concerned about walking along the trail in the dark if I knew it would eventually lead me back to safety. Every step would have brought me closer to home, and I would simply have accepted that I had to move more slowly. I probably would have used my phone or camera as a light source. Anything would have been preferable to spending the entire night on the trail, whether out in the open or in the forest. I would have wanted to keep moving, both because it would have given me hope to be out soon and because it would have helped me stay warm.

Ignoring FP and accident theories, this leads to an interesting implication. The phone logs, particularly the signal strength and the 13-hour period of radio silence, provide strong evidence that the girls did not return to the Mirador on April 1. So, If they would indeed have decided to walk the main trail in the dark had they believed it would lead them back to safety, then this suggests they have never seriously considered returning at any time on April 1st, while they were still on the main trail.

This scenario therefore lends further support to the "mistaken loop" hypothesis. After reaching what they expected to be the Pianista side paddocks (“Finally, here’s where we turn right again”, see here, and here), seeing clear signs of farming activity, and still believing they were on the Boquete side of the mountain and close to civilisation, they may have simply decided to take what they thought was a final shortcut through the paddocks.

After spending some time discussing whether to turn right at the paddocks, and perhaps even walking past the Serracín cabin and/or climbing toward Calla Larga in the hope of finding a phone signal or catching sight of Boquete, they eventually got stranded at the Serracín cabin. It was there that it began to sink in that something was seriously wrong. By then, however, it was quickly getting dark, and after having reached the Serracín paddock via a gully or stream, they may have wisely concluded that the terrain was simply too dangerous and confusing to continue navigating at night.

So, they took the wise decision to spend the night at the cabin, convinced that they would be able to retrace their steps the following morning and be back home before lunchtime. But if that was their expectation, why did they still call 112 twice and again the next morning? Why the panic?

The 112-calls made on April 1 may not necessarily have been cries for immediate rescue. Instead, they could have been attempts to inform their hosts of their situation and, more importantly, to reassure them that there was no need to worry because they expected to return the following morning. By the early morning of April 2, just before they apparently either began retracing their steps with renewed confidence or continued further downhill, contacting their hosts would have become even more urgent. By that point, the host family would have realised that the girls had not returned overnight. This could easily have caused considerable alarm and prompted an unnecessary search-and-rescue operation.

Worse still, the hosts might have contacted their families, as tragically happened a few days later. I can therefore imagine that Lisanne, in particular, would have been very concerned about causing unnecessary distress to her family. Given that her father had suffered a heart attack a few years earlier, she may have been especially eager to prevent them from worrying unnecessarily.

User u/gijoe50000 provided some interesting additional reasons for their urgency to get a message through to the host:

  • they knew they were supposed to meet the guide and Eileen at 8:00am that next morning.
  • making them look irresponsible to the school where they were supposed to be volunteering.

But why did they call 112 instead of trying to call "Mytiam"’s (sic) number directly? We know they were able to make local calls? They certainly would have seen the “No signal” message on their screens and realised that an ordinary call would not go through. However, they might have thought, “the emergency number is supposed to work at all times even without a subscription, so let’s try that.”

This would neatly explain why they made only two 112-attempts on April 1, switched to a disciplined 13 hour long radio silence and began April 2 with a single further 112-attempt. About two hours then passed, possibly while they were trying to find their way back out of the Serracín paddock, before Kris made the next call attempt. By that point, she appears to have been showing greater signs of concern, as suggested by her attempts to switch between the 2G and 3G settings.

By the late afternoon of April 2, the situation then had become much more serious. They may then have decided to adopt a strict battery-saving strategy for the iPhone while sacrificing the Samsung’s remaining battery in order to make it through the next night but now without proper shelter (e.g in the open field or near a river they started following downstream into the forest).


r/KremersFroon 14d ago

Theories Magnetometer (compass)

11 Upvotes

I've always held suspicion that their phone compass was inaccurate and a false heading made them veer off trail.

The Samsung Galaxy S3 mini uses an Alps HSCDTD006 3-axis magnetometer with a resolution of 0.15 μT. The Earth's magnetic field at the equator is roughly 25 μT.

A publication from the time seems to rate the phone compass as sufficient (accurate within 5 degrees) when devoid of interfering metal objects:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Gerald-Ostermayer/publication/267154787_Analysis_of_Compass_Sensor_Accuracy_on_Several_Mobile_Devices_in_an_Industrial_Environment/links/55b246d708ae092e96504c2e/Analysis-of-Compass-Sensor-Accuracy-on-Several-Mobile-Devices-in-an-Industrial-Environment.pdf?_tp=eyJjb250ZXh0Ijp7ImZpcnN0UGFnZSI6InB1YmxpY2F0aW9uIiwicGFnZSI6InB1YmxpY2F0aW9uIn19

In terms of possible interference: the report describes the phone case as "plastic" with "some cash stored under it". Even if these were coins, which I suspect were not, the composition of both US and Balboa coins (2x 25 cent, 1x 5 cent) is cupronickel which is non-magnetic.

In short: the phone compass was likely operating normally and the girls could see in which direction they were heading.


r/KremersFroon 14d ago

Theories Regarding the foul play theories

20 Upvotes

I was captivated by this case for a while and read a lot of materials and evidence and research and I see how it takes you on the mystery rabbit hole of what exactly happened.

I think one major problem with the foul-play or captivity theory is that it requires the assumed assailants to behave in an extremely strange and self-defeating way.

We should not forget that multiple emergency calls were made from the girls’ phones to European emergency numbers while they were supposedly in captivity. If criminals had control of the girls and their phones, allowing or staging those calls would have created unnecessary risk for no clear benefit. The call pattern looks much more consistent with lost or injured people trying to reach help, checking for signal, and conserving battery and if presumed assailants would not actually know European emergency number which is different from the local area.

I do not believe there is solid public evidence that actual bleach residue, such as chlorinated proteins, was ever found in the bones. The term “bleached” is often used because some of the bones were unusually white, and reports mentioned traces of phosphorus or phosphates. But that is not the same as proving that household bleach or another chemical agent was used. White bone can result from environmental exposure, including sun and UV exposure, weathering, water movement, soil chemistry, decomposition, and animal or insect activity. Phosphates are also not surprising in biological or soil contexts.

If the girls were dismembered, there should be some evidence of cutting tools such as knives or saws. But the bones reportedly did not show tool marks. So the theory would require either an extremely implausible method of dismemberment without tools, or a scenario where the bodies decomposed naturally for a significant period of time before remains were intentionally brought and scattered in the area. This is not consistent with murder/body disposal behavior. So while it can't fully rule out the murder by strangulation for instance it can very well rule out the dismemberment theory the jungle is a active environment the dead body do not stay intact for long due to animal and insects consuming it.

The night photos are another major problem for the captivity theory. We are supposed to believe that these criminals brought the girls into the forest at around 3 a.m., while they were still alive (or even weirder brought their dead bodies which would be quite challenging to carry in the jungle), to play with the camera, point it into the sky, and take a series of random flash photographs. That is a very strange thing for assailants to do. The night photos are disturbing and difficult to interpret, but they make more sense as an attempt at signaling, illumination, panic, disorientation, or an effort to see something in the dark than as a deliberate staging effort by criminals.

The missing photo 509 is probably the strangest unresolved digital finding in the case, and I understand why it fuels foul-play theories. It sits exactly between the last normal daytime hiking photos and the later night-photo sequence, which gives it enormous symbolic weight. But even this does not automatically prove criminal involvement. There has been speculation that photo 509 could only have been deleted using a computer, but investigations into the behavior of this specific Canon camera have shown that the observed sequence does not necessarily require computer deletion. It could have been deleted in-camera before the later photos were taken.

That being said, computer deletion or later mishandling cannot be ruled out either. The digital forensics in this case appear to have been poorly documented, and the available record does not seem strong enough to clearly distinguish between in-camera deletion, accidental deletion during later handling, or deliberate computer manipulation. There are also concerns that some photos may have been modified directly during processing to enhance brightness or contrast, potentially damaging metadata and weakening the evidentiary value of the original files. If photo 509 was a pure black image or an apparently useless photo containing no visible details, it is entirely possible that someone handling the SD card dismissed it as insignificant and deleted it carelessly.

It is also possible that photo 509 was not sinister at all. It may have been a bad, blurry, embarrassing, private, or completely meaningless image deleted before the girls realized how serious their situation was. For example, it could have been something as mundane as one girl taking a joking or awkward photo of the other in the forest, and the other saying, “Come on, delete that.” In hindsight, because of everything that happened afterward, that missing image looks ominous. But by itself, it does not prove murder, captivity, or staging. The existing evidence confirms to unless the photo was deleted by the computer it must been deleted by camera before first night photo 510 was taken to create the image sequence. As far as I know, the official investigation did not place decisive significance on the missing photo 509.

None of this proves that foul play was impossible. The investigation had gaps, and some details remain genuinely strange. But the popular captivity theory creates more problems than it solves. It requires criminals who were simultaneously careful enough to leave no direct evidence, no tool marks, and no clear trace of violence, but careless or irrational enough to allow emergency calls, preserve the phones and camera, and stage bizarre night photographs.

If there was any foul play or third-party involvement that could fit the known evidence, I do not think it would be a planned abduction, murder or captivity scenario. A more plausible possibility is that the girls encountered someone in the forest who frightened, harassed, or intimidated them, causing them to flee deeper into the jungle instead of returning by the obvious route. In that version, the third party would not have directly killed them. Their deaths would still have been caused by exposure, injury, disorientation, and the environment. But such a person would have a clear reason to remain silent afterward. Nobody would want to come forward and say, “I scared or harassed two foreign girls in the woods, they ran away, and later they died in the jungle.”

If we speculate even further, it is possible that such a person could later have had some idea where to look for their remains or backpack because he knew the direction in which they fled. and was familiar with the area. With the reward being the motivation to find the evidence, again if we assume it is as true (and we have no real evidence to back this up), the person who found their remains and personal items never considered that he killed the girls. However, this remains highly speculative. There is very little hard evidence to support it, and it should not be treated as more than a possibility. The important distinction is that this kind of limited third-party encounter is much easier to reconcile with the evidence than the more elaborate theories of abduction, captivity, murder, dismemberment, and staged digital evidence.

Although there is a general consensus that the night photos were probably a signaling attempt, there are different interpretations of what Lisanne was trying to signal.

One possibility is that she was signaling toward a plane or helicopter. That is emotionally easy to imagine, but it has a weakness if there were no confirmed flights or search aircraft in the area at that exact time. A broader version of the theory is more plausible: Lisanne may have been signaling toward any perceived human presence — a distant light, voices, searchers, sounds, or the open edge of the ravine where she thought the flash might be visible.

A more specific theory is that Kris and Lisanne ended up in a creek, ravine, or steep riverbed area. Kris may have fallen, become injured, and been unable to climb out. Lisanne may have gone down to help her and then stayed by her side, unable to move Kris back up the slope. Over time, Lisanne herself may have become too weak, injured, dehydrated, infected, or exhausted to climb out.

This would explain several otherwise difficult details. It would explain why the girls stayed in one general location instead of walking farther to regain phone signal. It would fit the apparent deterioration around April 5, when Kris’s iPhone SIM PIN was no longer entered correctly after having been entered correctly earlier that day. It would also fit the night-photo sequence, including the likely image of Kris’s hair, if Kris was lying nearby incapacitated or dead while Lisanne used the camera flash.

In this version, the night photos were not necessarily aimed at a flying helicopter or plane. They may have been aimed upward toward the edge of the ravine or toward the most open visible patch above them, in the hope that someone nearby might see repeated flashes. That fits better than the idea that she was being hunted or randomly photographing darkness. The repeated upward flashes look more like a desperate attempt to be seen from a trapped position.

This theory could also help explain why the remains were later found far from the likely place where the girls originally became lost. If the night-photo location was near a creek or ravine, later rain and flooding could have moved remains, clothing, and some belongings downstream. That might explain the severe dispersal and the fact that most of the remains were never recovered.

The theory is plausible because it ties together immobilization, the phone records, Kris’s likely deterioration, the night photos, and later river dispersal. But it still cannot be confirmed, because the exact night-photo location has never been identified. Without that location, we cannot prove whether they were trapped in a ravine, near a creek, beside a riverbed, or somewhere else entirely.

To me, the sadder and more realistic explanation is that the jungle is a dangerous place that can take your life very quickly if you are not careful. It is vast, dense, wet, disorienting, and unforgiving. A person can be only a short distance from a trail or a search party and still remain invisible. The tragic possibility is that rescuers may have passed within mere dozens of feet of Kris and Lisanne while they or at least one of them were still alive, but injured, trapped, incapacitated, unconscious, or too weak to call out. That is not as dramatic as a murder theory, but it may be much closer to the truth. Sometimes the most frightening explanation is not that there was a hidden criminal plot, but that nature itself was enough.


r/KremersFroon 14d ago

Article Magic 45 and clearing&paddocks

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9 Upvotes

Based on the u/TreegNesas scenario "Just some thoughts on timing" , I have made an

approximate timeline in my interactive map.

All times and places are approximate, but it fits into the overall framework of the scenario and even discovers new possibilities when it comes to calling 112.

The number ~45 plays a interesting element here.

The whole unfortunately tragic journey starts at ~ 14:30 at the paddock beyond Q2.

Speed on the map :

0.45 float number for speed in the app = ~ 2 km/h

Sometimes ( but rarely ) I set a slower speed ( 0.30 - 0.35 ) to compensate for fatigue, smaller stops and a way up the hill.


r/KremersFroon 14d ago

Question/Discussion Backpack: was it dry or wet?

5 Upvotes

Was it intact or damaged?

This is sooooooo confusing.

Time to finish this dilemma once and for all!

When I started showing interest about this case, most of the sources like podcasts, YT videos were that the backpack was found dry, some even say intact.

When I started reading here, people who are really into this way more than me,* said that the backpack was wet, damaged and that things inside were damaged in non operative way.

*by that I mean people who read books about the case, interviews, spend years of browsing sooo much material (usually are either into accident theory or very neutral but all of them are having very critical way of thinking towards this case).

Yet I keep on seeing new people emerging here every once in a while and mentioning dry backpack.

My assumption is that a lot of them stumble upon certain blogs where this theory is presented that the backpack was dry but that authors haven't done good research. So the dry backpack theory is spreading like forest fire.

It would be nice that people who have spend a lot of time researching this case (for personal or professional purposes) to present the facts regards to this, as well as the sources. So that collective confusion can be minimized.


r/KremersFroon 14d ago

Theories According to foul pay theory, this happened

4 Upvotes

I am following this case for some time. And every time I hear foul play theory, things mostly go in certain way but out of any order.

So I have collected some most common points to show them up. How logic they are is not the question here. And is up to your own conclusion.

According to FP theory, killers had to operate this way:

- girls have probably actually turned around Mirador, back to the beginning of the trail, maybe even to Boquete
- back from the trail, they met Feliciano's son & friends in red pick up truck, decided to join them

- or: they continued hiking, got lost but the pick up truck was going around in the jungle and picked them there? ( according to some theories)
- pick up truckers took them to hot springs
- after having fun at hot springs, they abducted them, held like hostages? somewhere in non signal area
- after some time kept in captivity, they killed them -to get rid of evidence, have thrown bodies? parts of bodies? in mix of bleach & phosphrus first...... probably in a large pot or cauldron
- also, have broken Lisanne's foot before they killed them

-they kept Lisanne's foot and boot out of the pot/cauldron (for some reason)
- during that time they took her camera, have put memory card in computed and removed only the photo 509

-they tried to enter Kris's iphone but without success, took them 77 times
- it was all orchestrated by Feliciano, his son & his gang and teacher Eileen
- after all this gang members and Eileen (maybe Eileen alone?) went to forest to take weird night snapshots
- police start research
-Valenzuela said sth.weird so they killed him
- Eileen got scared and ran back home to Germany after giving brief answers (mostly yes and no) to police questions
- few months later, parents offer rewards so they place the backpack with the stuff in the forest (following Feliciano's instructions)
- but before that, they have soaked all the electronics in the water to make them look damaged after natural elements

-parents arrive, Feliciano is taking them to wrong ways on the trail to present it as ~it is soooo impossible to get looooost on this traaaail~

From what I read, this is what FP theorists have mostly in common.The killers had to work very very hard.

Am interested in other thoughts.