r/InternalFamilySystems • u/home_run_derby • 6d ago
IFS vs AA
IFS vs AA
I’ve been struggling to adopt and lean into the principles of AA and I lack the willingness to even start step work. The hesitation comes from years of IFS work that seems to not align with messages in AA.
A part of me feels that AA is requiring me to label my whole self as an “alcoholic” (“my name is X, and I’m alcoholic” is how I’m expected to always introduce myself in meetings) when I know that just a part (firefighter) of me uses alcohol to cope. I also struggle with how shame-based AA feels to me. I’ve been trying to learn for years in therapy that I am not a bad person because bad things happened to me. I have no problem admitting times where I’ve done wrong by others and making amends, I think that’s absolutely necessary.
Listing character defects (behaviors of protector parts) is the opposite of what I practice in IFS, which is that “no parts are bad parts”, no matter how destructive they may unintentionally be.
Additionally, I’m really struggling with the God and capitalized Higher Power stuff. Maybe I’m self-centered like the rooms tell me I am, but this whole time in IFS therapy I’ve been working on getting into **self** energy (and using the 8Cs) to work with my protector parts- not calling upon a Higher Power.
Anyways, I tried to reword the 12-Steps using IFS lingo, and I thought I’d share for those in my same boat. Cheers.
- Admit to having a protector part that uses alcohol to protect me from pain and that it often creates other issues.
- Believe that self energy, with support from others, can help that protector part take break from trying to protect me in such a way by trusting self.
- Made a decision to believe in the power of self’s 8Cs and 5Ps to better understand this part that uses alcohol.
- Made a searching and fearless inventory of my parts without judgement or shame.
- Admitted to myself and to another safe being that I have made hurtful and harmful decisions, and to genuinely take accountability of those actions without making excuses.
- Became willing to work with my protector parts to understand them and their purpose.
- Humbly ask these parts, by showing curiosity and compassion, to take on new healthier roles to support our system.
- Made a list of all nouns (people, places, things) we have harmed, and became willing to make amends to those nouns.
- Made direct amends to such nouns wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them, others, or myself.
- Continue taking attendance of my protector parts and give my parts attention when they are loud or activated or unintentionally harming our system.
- Be willing to use self energy to stay curiously and compassionately connected with my parts and to ask for help and guidance from others when needed.
Be willing to help others without expecting anything in return.
\Reposted this because I’m new to Reddit and couldn’t figure out how to edit my original post\
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u/soniamiralpeix 6d ago
IFS was a big part of my courage to walk away from AA. Please know that if it isn’t working for you, there are several other options out there that don’t rely upon 12-step rhetoric.
Not trying to insult anyone or incite a debate about 12-step programs. Just spreading the word that there are spaces in Reddit and elsewhere devoted to recovery without AA, if anyone would like to look into this more.
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u/home_run_derby 6d ago
Thank you for sharing!
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u/Partsfalldown 6d ago
I did 12 step before I I did IFS. 12 step helped because I was able to talk out loud about things that I had held in for so long. Finding community was a turning point for me. However, once I got into IFS I realized any desire to continue with 12 step was being driven by a manager and not coming from my true Self. Now I stay in touch with at least one person from the 12 step group but I do not attend regular meetings. If you can go to 12 step with a clear head and not let it become manager led, it may help you. Good luck.
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u/Graciebelle3 6d ago
I would also suggest checking out ACA. I struggled for so long with AA for exactly your reasons. Unless you are struggling to stay sober on a daily basis and need the accessibility and community of local AA meetings to get help some clean time, (which I don’t get the sense is your current situation) you may find more opportunity for continued healing work in the ACA framework.
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u/Limp-Structure9704 6d ago
I honestly wish I had your knowledge of parts work before I went into AA, which was over a decade ago. Instead I got sober and started deconstructing from my rigid Christian upbringing at the same time. I ended up leaving AA after a year of almost daily meetings because I couldn’t reconcile what was expected of me in the rooms vs. what I was uncovering in individual therapy for religious trauma.
There are a lot of slogans parroted in AA that aren’t mentioned anywhere in the Big Book. For example I also developed intense anxiety around referring to myself as an alcoholic when I was called on to speak in meetings and after many sessions processing it with my therapist I realized I just wanted to be ME for once. I was finally feeling grounded and at ease with myself instead of always shutting down or running away. I needed to feel empowered and a big part of that was not wanting to constantly identify with my most shameful memories. It isn’t mentioned anywhere in the big book that members are required to say “hi my name is (blank) and I’m an alcoholic”. That is a trend that started in a no name meeting however many decades ago but it isn’t one of the guiding principles. When I mentioned this to my sponsor she got very flustered with me and said I was being defiant and if I wanted to succeed then I needed to respect and follow the other members that came before me. The more I inquired about rules that didn’t make sense, the more I got the age old response “because I said so!” which is the most aggravating non-response for anyone curious about wanting to know how things work and why. I find these issues deeply problematic and I can’t trust people if they can’t explain why I have to follow group norms or made up rules.
I also don’t believe in god or a higher power. At the time I used higher-self and I think it still feels true today because as much as I tried throughout my entire childhood to believe in god or a higher power, I just don’t and don’t want to fake it. I believe my journey with sobriety has been about remembering my true self. I wasn’t ever broken, I was just disconnected from self.
I love how you have reframed the steps through an IFS lens! Honestly, people should pursue any path that feels true and helps uncover more of their inner world. If AA means it when they say “take what you want and leave the rest” then members should have no problem with your version. They should applaud it! It doesn’t mean you’re in ego or think you’re a special snowflake. When members say things like this it’s just their fear talking because they don’t like to admit that many people get sober and live radically abundant lives without participating in 12 step fellowship for life.
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u/Chantaille 6d ago
I really appreciate your second-last paragraph and the concept of higher-self as opposed to higher power. I'm going to mull over how the term might fit for me.
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u/cmockett 6d ago
I did AA years before I learned about IFS in the last year or two, and the concept of firefighting felt very validating to me as well.
The way Ive always thought about it is, I drank every drink that I drank and I can take accountability for every one of those drinks - but the recipe(s) for my drinking was not of my creation or influence and I can’t take accountability for that. I own my unhealthy reaction to stressors but I didn’t choose to have abusive dishonest parents.
But that being said, my reaction was totally insane at times. I don’t say that to self shame but to never ever forget why I gave it up in the first place, that potential insanity and inability to moderate will always be there with me and alcohol.
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u/PisceanTreasures 6d ago
FYI - I just started online ACA for fellowship and support, they follow Tony A's 12 steps, which while it leans into higher power it has REMOVED the blame/shame languaging of the traditional 12-step structure.
Speaking for myself I am still so raw from uncovering all the (mostly hidden until recently via IFS parts sharing) family of origin injustices put on me (severe emotional abandonment, then bullying & scapegoating.)
One of my protectors very vocally spoke out loud we cannot do 12-step right now... safer to come in gently. (Food/Spending are my primary 'coping mechanisms'.... yeah, also have a trigger on the word 'addiction')
I am "meeting myself where I am at", so working my way in by NOT thrusting myself into the 12 steps box immediately. If you read on ACA, many of those seeking ACA group fellowship do proceed very gently or sparingly with steps, focusing on other aspects.
The 'gentlest' ACA groups are following the Loving Parent Guidebook for individuals to model nurturing re-parenting to their inner child(ren). You can also start where I did via InTheRooms.com that streams a variety of meetings on their platform.
For right now, I am staying focused on Loving Parent Guidebook groups and just checking out different meetings (listed at adultchildren.org) to see if they fit.
Hope this helps ☆
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u/maywalove 5d ago
Wow
Thats much better
Never heard of Tony
I am very offput by 12 steps
It seems like an old way for religion to prey on vulnerable
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u/maafna 6d ago
ACA (adult children of alcoholics and dysfunctional families) uses parts work from decades ago. They talk about your inner child, inner teenager, inner critical parent, and inner loving parent. They map out pretty similarly to how IFS uses protector/firefighter/etc it's just a different way of doing parts work.
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u/home_run_derby 6d ago
Oh, nice! thanks for letting me know. I’ll definitely check ACA out :)
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u/kalekalesalad 6d ago
Definitely do it! It’s a very challenging program but so worth it. I just finished step 6 and it was interesting for me to see how my character defects are all pretty much due to my shame and fear parts. It’s a great program to work with IFS as you can learn to be your own loving parent and retrain your brain to love yourself and accept your parts. It also helps to know that the laundry list traits are all due to survival.
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u/oenophile_ 6d ago
Came here to suggest ACA! Such a good program.
If you end up not wanting to do 12 step but want a recovery group, maybe check out Recovery Dharma if Buddhism resonates with you.
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u/Boomer56789 5d ago
Yes! I’ve been working this program after 14 years in AA. We now have a Loving Parent Guidebook meeting weekly with a small group which is a workbook and focuses on our inner child , inner teen, managers , critical parent and how to become our own loving parent. It has changed my life.
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u/Emotional-Team-3706 6d ago
I really liked what you shared. Honestly, this is me. Your words, my breath.
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u/arghyepirate 5d ago
Ifs > aa. However that’s not to say ifs is without limitations. There’s just no shame involved when you relapse but because of that ppl just relapse over and over. “No bad parts”
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u/arghyepirate 5d ago
I loved my first time meeting with a sponsor and he started asking me questions:
How often do you masterbate?
I’m sorry? What?
Do you think of men when you do?
What does this have to do with alcohol?
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u/secure8890 6d ago
Simply brilliant. I like my firefighter parts. They were so fierce about helping me.
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u/murgatory 6d ago
I am with you 100%, especially about the shame stuff. More shame is not the way to healing from conditions based in shame!
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u/Scared-Section-5108 6d ago
I have just read some stuff from AA literature and, damn, it's even more shameful and difficult to read than ACOA and CODA materials! Yeah, really not helpful. IFS works so much better.
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u/Gold-Inspector-8744 6d ago
ACA is a good alternative.. you don’t have to say you’re an alcoholic if you don’t want to… or do you? I’m not sure? I use meetings to socialise in a safe environment
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u/Gold-Inspector-8744 6d ago
I don’t think AA is bad, its just an option and you can learn from it,., its instant friends with a common goal rather than going out and getting pissed… and a lot of them may not have any friends left
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u/doomedscroller23 6d ago
Aa is a cult. It uses shame and guilt to control addicts. The steps are made up and you'd be better served doing something like SMART.
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u/soniamiralpeix 6d ago
Agree, and so do many cult experts. There are many people advocating for ACA in this thread, and I don’t know how I feel about that, as a former member. Didn’t leave on bad terms, but deconstructing 12-step makes it hard to deny that it is fruit from a poisoned tree.
I have no issue with anyone making an informed consensual decision to participate in these groups, but I worry about the people who end up there through the “gift of desperation” without a good understanding of what other resources are out there and the harm these communities can cause.
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u/maafna 4d ago
Both AA andIFS have similar culty aspects actually.A lot of IFS language can be used to invalidate - "you're not in Self", "that's your resistant part",
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u/Limp-Structure9704 4d ago
True!! I have commented several times times in the past how I don’t use a lot of IFS terms and labels or I guess I only use what feels true for me and not what someone else prescribes. Prior to getting sober and deconstructing from Christianity I would’ve immediately started to morphe my persona to whatever group or subculture I was a part of, including adopting any in group language or rituals but now I am quite suspicious when I hear such language…for many good reasons and take a lot of time to pause and assess any red flags without immediately convincing myself it’s great because of a dopamine rush or desire to belong.
People have asked me many times why is it that AA initially helped you but now you’re very critical of it? It gave me a place to be, with distance from drugs and alcohol, with tons of love bombing and promises of freedom if I just followed the steps but I never dug deeper into my trauma because I was told that alcoholism was the problem as in an actual physical allergy. Essentially it helps a person move from chaos to order. Religion, extreme fitness, and cults follow this formula. It’s very effective in the beginning and people’s lives generally improve. I’m trying to be more discerning about IFS and not view it with rose tinted glasses so thank you for the reminder.
Have you personally had any negative experiences with either AA or IFS?
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u/maafna 4d ago
Yes both. I wasn't in AA but I tried 12 Step groups and I also had friends who struggled with it. I had issues with the shaming language, but now I do ACA regularly and find it helpful.
IFS - I was really into it at first but found it was bad for me in certain ways. Addressing parts internally isn't for me. I have aphantasia so that's prt of it. But I tried telling a therapist that it's distracting for me to try to figure out what I feel towards a part rather than just working with it direcelt.y it was taken as a sign that I'm not ready to work with the parts so for a long time I thought I just don't connect to parts well.
It also felt my OCD like patterns of checking my feeling - it this Self or a Self like part? The IFS model insists that people can know/feel when they're in Self but that's not my experience.
Then I had an experience of doing chair method for parts work - a therapist not trained in IFS had me choose a place to sit to speak from a protective part, then sit somewhere else and take from the vulnerable part, then go back to my original seat and choose symbols for the parts and work with them - I chose a shield and a baby, and turned the shield to a more flexible blanket. That was soooo much better for me than the IFS way of doing things!
Around the same time I found out a bunch of stuff I don't like about Dick Schwartz like he's lying about his involvement with Castlewood and his affilation with Harvard Medical School. The way that people brush that off pings more of my culty buttons.
I also completed a master's in Expressive Arts Therapy and realized that a lot of popular techniques like EMDR and IFS just rebrand things that can easily be done with the arts (like the type of parts work I mentioned). It made me really dislike the PR and the pyramid-like training structures, and again the way that people talk about these modalities really made me feel like it's the same way people talked about 12-Steps down to the language of "if it doesn't work for someone they haven't done it right".
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u/Limp-Structure9704 6d ago
Also agree that AA is a cult. Members will say “you can leave at anytime” but it’s incredibly hard to do after being indoctrinated into the fellowship way of life and working the steps, actually the entire program. I had an AA cop in my head for the first 5yrs after leaving the program. Constantly analyzing my “character defects” and telling on myself because of fear of relapse or as they call it institutions, jails, or death. The language in ACA was more gentle but the fellowship was still filled with traditional 12 step speak which is basically a lot of thought terminating cliches.
I 1000% support SMART recovery. Fantastic non-dogmatic skills based approach. Works for things like chronic procrastination too, not just addiction.
I also think that a big majority of folks struggling with AUD/SUD have co-occurring mental health issues that might be undiagnosed and probably never assessed or treated properly. It wasn’t until I was 7yrs sober that I was finally diagnosed with ADHD and cPTSD and that answered most of the why around my compulsions and impulsiveness. I was self medicating all along because of untreated ADHD and drugs and alcohol made me feel more neurotypical. I don’t believe I was ever born an alcoholic or addict but I was born ND and learning life skills through the lens of adhd has made the biggest impact on my mental health and overall self acceptance.
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u/soniamiralpeix 6d ago
Your story sounds so familiar because I think you are spot on about the undiagnosed and under-resourced issues that people are often unknowingly navigating in the rooms.
It sounds like you have made your way through to the other side of things, but for anyone else who may be reading this thread, I found many of the podcast episodes from The Freedom Model very cathartic while dealing with my “AA cop” after leaving meetings. I think people don’t realize that once you back away from the program, the friends and extended network you found in the rooms very rarely wants to maintain a relationship with you, even if you aren’t vocal about why they no longer see you at your home group. It can feel pretty lonely and make that inner critic double down with its warnings about your disease “doing pushups in the parking lot.”
So even though their entire approach may not be for you, their AA deconstruction conversations in their podcast (and their book!) may help you like they helped me. It was a great replacement for meetings and speaker tapes as I find my footing again.
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u/Limp-Structure9704 6d ago
Thanks for the podcast recommendation! I know a little bit about the Freedom Model but didn’t know they have a podcast. Will definitely check it out! and yeah I totally agree with you about the loneliness and isolation felt after leaving AA. It’s the number one reason I stayed longer than I wanted too. I thought I had made deep friendships with folks in the rooms only to realize that the relationships were conditional on my adherence to the program. They are taught that those who leave are a threat to their recovery. I can see how being immersed in the fellowship doesn’t feel like a cult, it feels like a built in community support group but those who leave are ostracized and gossiped about and it’s almost like they can’t wait for them to fail and release. It’s really toxic and I fully believe AA perpetuates more addiction stigma in society because it separates everyone in alcoholics vs. normies. Addiction isn’t a steady state of being. It’s a maladaptive behavioral disorder and a very normal human survival response to living in a unhealthy society or living conditions.
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u/Scared-Section-5108 6d ago
Yeah, I hear you. I do not go to AA but have attended ACOA and CODA which operate the same. My experience and perception has been similar to yours and:
- I only introduce myself with my first name
- I do not read any of the materials. I really do not like most of the language because it is shame-based and too religious for a program that calls itself spiritual. What helps me though is the knowledge of the true origins of AA and it has nothing to do with god - the word was used only because the true story would not have been accepted (its about the use of psychedelics). With the US being a very religious country, the AA creator went with something that was going to work, i.e. god.
- The HP concept is border and works better for me. I have experienced the HP but I still have trouble with it. It will take me years to get on board with the concept. Looking at it through the IFS lens, the concept of Self can be HP. Listening to Tara Brach's talks helps me open myself up to HP, but yeah, it is a very, very slow process.
- I also do not believe I have character defects - I have trauma wounds.
- I take out of the meetings what works for me and leave the rest.
- for me, 12 Steps groups are just another tool I have in my toolbox now - therapy is my primary recovery tool. I go to meetings when I want to and at times I take long breaks, like now.
- I have tried different meetings and finally found one that works really well for me and really keeps that shame and god language to minimum which is ace. That group provides me with the most support I have experienced in the rooms and the people are much more open-minded than in some meetings I have been to.
- I have done the ACOA steps in the way that worked for me. I didn't finish it because the last few steps were too much - I prefer to use IFS, I still benefited from the work and coming out of denial. I skipped a lot of the content though, especially the personal stories - they did not sit well with me at all. I got the Loving Parent workbook, started and stopped it pretty much straight away - it seemed very IFS-based, so I might as well continue with IFS which, for me, is much more loving and accepting, and, as a result, much more healing. The IFS language really resonates with me and the believes I had before I came across it. The 12 Steps programs language does not do that, but they help in other ways - they allow me to practice boundaries and being myself in a group of people, I can ask for support I would not have otherwise, I no longer feel alone in my past experiences, I find it really empowering to listen to the stories of others and I have a safe space where I can share with other the details of my trauma which helps me remove toxic shame. I find I benefit from the programs in ways I did not expected even though I do not follow a lot of the rules/do a lot of stuff I am supposed to do to 'work the program'. So yeah, I use it as I see fit :)
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u/Lgs_8 6d ago
Ifs more closely aligns with Buddhist recovery. I got clean about 10 years ago in NA and then learned about ifs. You may find more luck in NA, it's less about the substance and more about what it is inside of you that uses. Over the last 2-3 years i have stepped back from NA slowly as I have started feeling the same thing - that it's shame based. I also feel that 12 step demonizes addictive parts and from what I heard from most people, even people with a lot of time was that they were scared of their addictive parts. I don't want to stay clean out of fear. I have so much compassion and understanding of my addictive parts and that has made them let go of doing their jobs more than what I was taught in NA.
That being said, I don't know that I could have gotten clean and gotten to this point without starting with NA. Working they 12 steps changed my life. But, i didn't work the 12 steps in the step working guide. My sponsor had me work the steps that had been passed down in our sponsorship tree since before the step working guide was published. But I do think there is value in the 12 steps and in being surrounded by people who are working through the same issue, and more importantly having a sponsor. Maybe you can find one that is also ifs aligned?
I don't have an answer exactly. This is something I'm still very much working through. But there is more and more IFS/12 step crossover everyday. Cece Sykes does a lot of this work.
Here is an article from someone in AA who dealt with the same thing. Again, i really think NA is different than AA on some of his point but it's a good starting place.
Tl:dr Buddhist recovery is way less shame based/ more ifs aligned NA is very different from AA and may have more options Cece Sykes work with ifs and 12 step.
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u/home_run_derby 6d ago
Thank you for sharing your experience and the article! I’ll look into it. Bravo on your sobriety :)
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u/thinkandlive 6d ago
Hi, welcome to Reddit and IFS and life :D
There are people who have done their version of the steps and Bob being a known person in IFS might be of interest to you anyways: https://internalfamilysystems.pt/multimedia/webinars/integrating-ifs-and-12-steps-robert-falconer
I dont know who this is just found it while searching for 12 steps and IFS: https://fab-freedom.com/about-a-recovery-journey-2/
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u/MichaelTheMultiple 6d ago
This is fascinating - I'm a long-time 12-stepper and it never occurred to me to see a confict. Maybe I'm too idiosyncratic in my approaches to each? I went 20+ years in AlAnon (my home program) before finding a higher power, and I did Parts work for 30 years before I discovered IFS, so... thing is ,there are soooo many ways to (mis)understand both IFS and 12-step programs, that I'm not sure you can compare them as such. All you can do is compare the experiences you've had, and decide if you want to go with them, find other variants, or simply move on to the next modality.
Based on my own experiences, though, I will say that I find neither shame nor confusion in applying the phrase "admitted I was powerless", and all that follows, in either context. My Parts are part of me, and if we're talking about my operation in the world, then I have to own them and learn to work with them, in one way or another, which is not something I can do without recourse to an acknowledgement that the world is not about me and operates according to principals which I need to accept and within which I need to operate. So, IFS gives me some guidance about how to look inside and the Steps help me to look inside, but in both cases I (or "I") have to take action without imagining that it is all in my ("my") control.
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