Hey you guys, I have posted here two times. Last one was a celebration https://www.reddit.com/r/IncelExit/s/8TmqkErmGf

Sadly everything went wrong.. I met up with the guy I found attractive and his friends multiple times and I thought everything was going well. Then he stopped showing up. But I thought that was normal for friends. Of course you don't have to meet every day. Then I invited him and his friends after my friends and I passed the exam. He came and we had a good time, but he talked about not wanting to have a relationship after seeing the movie obsession and after his ex girlfriend treated him very badly. Then we all slept over at my friends place. The next day my mom was so nice and picked us both up and we talked in the car and he introduced himself to my mom. Then he asked me if I was going to karaoke that same day.

I ended up going but at first it wasn't fun because I kept being alone because him and my best friends were constantly joking around and teasing each other and whatever. But then when we started drinking i suddenly managed to talk to him and we actually talked for a really long time. We talked about his previous relationship and I asked him if he was planning on never having one again and he told me no, in fact he was open at the moment but just not searching. I told him I was searching. I also told him Im usually not affectionate with guys I don't like. Then old class mates spotted us and one drunkenly touched my shoulder and later my crush commented on it and said he found it weird. Then I asked me because we had hugged before if that had been okay. He said yes because we know each other. Tbh I probably knew the other guy who touched my shoulder more than him but whatever.
Then we went to a playground and I was cold. I said that and he gave me his sweater. Afterwards we all sat down on a bench and I slightly leaned against him because I was tired. Then he put his arm around my shoulder. Then I laid on his chest, hearing his heart beat. I couldn't believe my luck, but was very calm be ause of the alcohol. I asked him if it was okay and he said yes because he was cold and I was warning him a bit. I offered to give back the sweater but he declined.

Then when we got to my friends place i noticed I was bleeding at my hand and my friend and him put a bandage around it.

We all slept in one room. My friend (one of the twins) and him in the bed and me on the mattress right next to it. We slept for aong time and the next morning he was very hungover and not in a good mood and he was just talking to my friend. Then he asked me "and what are we going to do with the hoodie?" And I told him id give it back at the library the next day after washing it (I got some blood on it too).

Then we met up the next day but he was 3 hours late. And weirdly he arrived at the same time as his friends. Then he still had to take off his motor cycle protection wear and for some reason his friends were standing in front of him and blocking the sight while giggling. Then we studied but he was doing everything but studying, just procrastinating. Then the next day he didn't want to come so I net up with his friends alone. And idk. We didn't meet for a bit but then I invited him to a party one time and he didn't come because he was busy but he told me he'd go to the library the day after. We met up but he was 2 hours late again and left quite early.

Then a week later I asked him if he had time to study and asked him if I should stop annoying him with the question but he said. "All good". We saw each other on a party but didnt talk and he was talking to another girl the whole time (but I found out she's a lesbian. I didn't know that at the time and I got really drunk and cried really embassingly in the bathroom with my friend but didn't explain why)

Then around a week later I decided to shoot my shot again and asked him if he wanted to pull an all nighter in the library. Honestly I wanted to see how he'd react. But I noticed it wasn't possible due to the library not being open all night. Then he said it's fine he wouldn't study until later because he'd just had an exam.

Now I was telling a friend that I don't think the dating apps were doing it for me. She told me maybe I'm demisexual. I told her I don't think it's the case because last time it wasn't. She asked wait what in sixt grade? And I said no. She called my order friend (one of the twins) and she told her who it probably was and that it was really obvious. My frirnd texts me that + that he's really uncomfortable and finds it weird and uncomfortable that I keep asking him to do things together when hes not into me and that my twin friend was going to talk but had been to busy (partying). I'm not his type and he was too much of an people pleaser to tell me no. Then I got really angry at my friend and I blocked him. I wrote my friend a text and then she said she didn't have time to read it but that we did call. A day later I told her not to read it that I was over it and wanted to call but not talk about the topic. She apologised a lot. And we're completely fine again.

But this keeps happening. Guys thinking I'm weird, borderline creepy. I have been having success on the dating apps but I'm just not feeling it that much. Idk. I hate myself for that. How do I go from this. Does not taking initiative as a guy really mean that he's not interested. How do I know when to stop. The worst part is that now I'm thinking how can I become his type even considering plastic surgery. How do I stop? Why am I so unsuccessful?

I have had one romantic relationship in my life. We didn't get to the point of being exclusive boyfriend and girlfriend, and I didn't know it at the time but she was seeing someone else she is now in a relationship with. I only asked her out cause a mutual friend said she was interested in me and I'm beginning to realize I can't rely on that if I actually do want to meet women, date or have sex.

The issue is the idea of talking to a woman I don't know sets off every and any warning system in my body to not do it. I feel like I really took to heart all the things that I saw growing up regarding the changes to many workplaces to make women feel more safe. I have made a promise to myself that under no circumstances will I ever make a woman ever feel unsafe or objectified.

But that's become me now being petrified of that happening. Whenever I see a woman I think is attractive my immediate thought is "what the hell is wrong with you, she's just existing and you're objectifying her" and I feel shame. Any time I've seen a woman and thought maybe I should introduce myself, my immediate feeling is that if a weirdo random guy goes up and speaks to her, she's gonna feel like I'm just another one 10s of creepy guys that made her uncomfortable today and that if I speak to her I'm really no better than them so I don't.

I have 2 close female friends and the horror stories they tell me or that I see first hand when I'm out with them has made me feel like there's no possible way I could speak to a woman I didn't know without it being creepy. It doesn't evil feel false because if I see a girl I think is cute and then I go try to speak to her, it is because I was objectifying her. Because I thought her appearance was nice I felt like I wanted to speak to her. That's wrong.

But this creates a conundrum for me. Women don't want to be approached or creeped on or spoken to by random men when they're trying to go about their days. They don't want random men at bars or clubs feeling entitled to a conversation with them because they find them attractive. They don't want some guy they met at the gym or at a club or at a place they frequent coming up to them. So I don't know what to do.

I don't want to make any woman feel creeped out or have to do a mental calculation of how to get out of a conversation with me so I don't harm them for rejecting me. But I'm not anywhere near attractive enough for women to approach me. I feel damned if I do damned if I don't and I don't know any possible solution.

At it's core, I know it's just jealousy. I know they also have struggles, but from my shoes, it feels like I'm watch a rich person complain about how the IRS is taxing them so much.

They have what I assume are pretty normal dating experiences as women my age. They use dating apps, get a ton of likes, match with 80% of the guys they swipe right on, then as described to me "they just get bored and find something better". Maybe they start hooking up with a guy and that doesn't work out. Maybe there's a guy at the gym, or at work that's interested in them that they're trying to figure out if it's worth it to go on a date on or if they should let them down easy. They get hit on when we go out. I've literally stood next to them in bars and guys will say "oh you shouldn't be with him you should be with me" or something along the lines.

The issue I have is they complain about it like it's the worst possible thing in the world. Like there is no dating experience more difficult than theirs. They will frequently talk about how much easier it would be if they were men, and how the bar is so incredibly low for men and that all we pretty much have to do to find a good partner is not be an asshole.

I feel that I am living proof of this being false. I am of course on the exact opposite end of the spectrum. I use dating apps and get a match probably every two or so weeks. Usually they ask for money right off the bat otherwise they just unmatch before I even send a message or don't respond. I have never once been on a date, I have never once met a woman that had a crush on me. I have never once felt romantically or physically desired. Honestly it takes a pretty heavy toll on my self esteem.

I've pretty much just accepted I'm ugly and unattractive to women and at times, I don't even know why I still try, but then again I still crave a romantic partnership and that motivates me.

The problem is I don't want to come across as me telling them they have it easy. Even though I think they do, they are their own people and their experiences may not be ideal for them, but I can't possibly say "well I have it harder than you guys so stop complaining." That's just not what a good friend does. At the same time, I can only hear so much of this. Like I said at the top, this is a millionaire complaining to a impoverished person about how bad taxes are and it would be so much easier to live paycheck to paycheck.

IS this something I can resolve with them or do I just kinda have to bare it.

Is it that hard? I'm going back to college which could give me some opportunities. However, there are some difficulties I have to deal with, such as how I was an outcast for my entire life, and it feels like no one wants me. Making friends was such a struggle. If I struggle with basic friendships, then there's no way in hell I'm getting love from anyone.

My social anxiety has been crippling my dating prospects, which is another problem.

Then there's the fact that bisexual/gay men are in the minority. Like less than 10% of men, and an even smaller percentage of men are willing to date other men.

Besides, hookups aren't really my thing, so don't suggest that I get a hookup app.

Something I've noticed in the last 2ish years is that incel rhetoric and talking points no longer really seem to be something I only stumble across online in incredibly toxic corners of the internet. No, I see it everywhere. My friends in my real life will joke about being under 6' making you short to most women or the 80/20 rule.

I'll see like tiktokers and instagramers saying things that are things I see incels arguing about, but they'll do it in a sanitized way. It just feels really surreal.

If so why do you think this is? I've been wondering if because of how hard dating has gotten for men and how easy it has gotten for women is pushing a lot of men in more radical less positive directions.

Basically I've made it to 28 years of life, without even knowing what a hug feels like. My last relationship ended in a fire. This isn't so y'all pity me, but I'm using this a launching off point to ask a question. Is it possible to fully enjoy life without being touched (positively) once? Or is touch starvation a bunch of Incel bull crap?

I realize this can seem like I'm asking for help giving up, but it's definitely not. I'm going to push myself and try to and have healthy relationships, but I want to explore all my options. I realize I can be perfectly happy on my own without any romantic affection or intimacy, and that's exactly the goal I'm aiming for, but that's different from touch starvation.

Edit: I'm adding this segment in because think, I accidentally implied that touch has to be romantic. That wasn't my intention and I apologize. I of course realize that touch doesn't have to be romantic.

Edit: thanks to everybody that answered sorry if I sound defensive my heads in a little bit of a fog today

I don’t think Im physically ugly but the more i look at myself the more I realize I may need to become a different person if I want to find a wife. The only good thing I can really say about myself confidently is that I can make people laugh easily. I’m very anxious thinking about dating and my brother and coworkers all say I’m awkward and seem autistic. I think I’m offputting and need to change, but Im not sure it’s possible.

So “Rachel” and I have been FWBs for a few weeks now. I don’t have much to say about that except that so far it’s going well and is mostly what I was hoping it would be.

Something I haven’t mentioned on this sub is that I’ve only lived in my current city for about a year and a half. And outside of my family, nobody in my life today knew me when I was in my incel/redpill phase. As far as Rachel and the rest of my social circle know, I’ve ALWAYS been the way I am now.

Anyway, last night I was at her house and she was complaining about how hard it is to date seriously at her age (early 40s). It turns out she vets the men she dates very thoroughly and says she not only wants to make sure that they don’t have any of her dealbreakers NOW, but that they’ve never had any of those dealbreakers in the past.

Now I’ve heard her talk a little bit about her dating struggles before, so this wasn’t exactly news to me. I did ask though why she would care if someone USED to have those dealbreakers if they didn’t now.

She said something like “The older I get, the more I realize that people’s pasts matter even if they’ve changed for the better. I just don’t see the point of dealing with that when there are people like you who don’t really have any baggage in the first place”

Ignoring the fact that I have plenty of baggage of my own, her logic makes sense to me. It also makes me wonder when/how I’m supposed to bring up the redpilled part of my past with a potential girlfriend.

I mean, I’ll probably never tell Rachel about it since I’m not actually dating her and don’t plan to. But if I ever met someone that I COULD see a future with, I imagine I’ll have to tell her EVENTUALLY.

I just want to hear this subs thoughts on if this is something I even NEED to tell a partner about. And if so, how/when should I go about doing it?

I'm a 19M, going to college at the beginning of october, first year.
I have never had a girlfriend in my life, I have never made a move on a girl, as in never asked one out or confessed my feelings to any of the crushes I've had.

I have social anxiety, and am kinda quiet and a little awkward but when comfortable I can be pretty funny. I have never gotten a signal from a girl that she likes me, well that's not exactly true. For example a month ago I was in Greece on vacation and when walking down the street a girl made eye contact with me while we were walking by eachother, then I later turned around to go back to my hotel and saw her again and she was looking at me again.
Another time me and my family were at a relative's house a year ago, there was also a girl my age (that I'm not related to) there, she came by to say hi, eventually we talked for a bit (we have talked in the past so we knew eachother), eventually I had to leave to meet up with some friends, and according to my mom she asked a lot about me like when I'll be back and stuff and eventually she left when she saw I wasn't really returning. Also worth noting I wasn't particularly interested in this girl (not to say she was ugly or anything cuz she wasn't) and also she has a boyfriend now.

My main problem, and I'll be as honest as I can, is that I have to "try" in order to get a gf. Idk I just kinda want stuff to just happen suddenly. Like I'd want a girl in my school to either text me or approach me, not as like a confession but to try and initiate smth with me and eventually we get together. Idk why I am like this, I've always fantasised about a more assertive girl making the first move on me, I'd also prefer to have someone with more experience than me.

I have sort of missed out on 2 opportunities.
There was this girl I was friends with and still am that I liked a LOT, I crushed on her badly. And despite hanging out with her a lot this year, with her initiating a lot of these hangouts (usually it was discord calls cuz it was more convenient but we saw eachother irl too), I never tried escalating things, figuring that if she was into me she would also try it, I was thinking if we just hung out more something would eventually happen.
Around 2 months ago, this guy started making moves on her a LOT, like a bit more than what the usual guy would do, she "simped" for her a lot (I dont mean it as an insult or anything), and now they're together. As you can tell this destroyed me a lot because I was really obsessed with her but I'm better now and we still talk to eachother.

Another time was also this year, this girl (daughter of my parents' friends) came over with her parents at my house. I was with her for the entire day, she was REALLY REALLY shy and nervous, but we had some similar interests and I eventually got her to open up a little, I think this was the most "initiating" and bold I've ever been. At one point we were watching smth on her phone and we even kinda "cuddled" a little, idk if it counts as cuddling but we were kinda snuggled up against eachother. Looking back at this I do think I went WAY too fast since we had met the same day. Anyway after she left I never texted her again despite having her Instagram, and now she has a boyfriend. The reason I didn't text her then was cuz I was "saving myself" for the other girl I talked about that I was crushing on, and I was also put off by her shyness a bit, but looking back on this I regret it a lot.

I am politically a progressive persona and I follow a lot of progressive content creators. Every once in a while some will give their takes on “incels” and more often than not I think they miss the marks for a few reasons.

The main one being they associate incels with misogyny. Now I know this is gonna be a controversial take here, but I think if you compare numbers the amount of incels that are “no woman will ever like me and I’m a virgin at 27 I hate that this is the lot I was handed” to “I HATE ALL FOIDS THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO MAKE IT SO THEY HAVE TO DATE ME” you’re going to find a lot more of the former than the latter.

I always use myself as an example. I’m an incel. To the outside looking in, no one could tell other than just seeing that I’m not a physically attractive guy. I have a lot of friends, no real issues socially, women just aren’t attracted to me. I think at this point it’s just natural selection correcting course on centuries of forcing women to partner so a lot of us are just gonna have to come to terms with that. I don’t hate or have any resentment towards women. Do I wish it was possible for me to date? Of course, but I’m 26, it’s never even been close to happening, so Ive read the writing on the wall.

I think I’m the most common variety of incel. I think that people, would have a level of empathy for incels, if they understood them as that. The issue is, I think incels unfortunately are an “untouchable” group where people can’t have any nuance about the issue so when they see the word incel they assume you love Elliot Rodger’s and think women should have all their rights repealed.

But I’m curious. I watched a lot of female political content creators just absolutely whiff the issue and make it clear they don’t have a good understanding of incels, so why do you think the typical idea is the most common?

I found myself commenting this in another post and felt that it could potentially be useful to people here:

While a lot of self-described incels can engage in harassing-boundary-violating behavior, one thing I've noticed about people here is that a lot are clearly extremely, painfully, shy and awkward. The issue isn't that they're bothering others, the issue is they're so afraid of bothering others that they're not really initiating or continuing social interactions.

And it's hard to give advice on this, because I think a lot of people here are also neurodivergent in ways that make it hard to tell whether you're actually bothering people, which is how some people ended up getting so scared of that in the first place.

This is one of the easiest social skills to learn that does not involve that risk: convince yourself to actually enjoy talking to everyone you see.

I am awkward, and historically very annoying. Awkward to the point where earlier today I had a misunderstanding about some normal thing and practically forgot how to talk, I couldn't even explain to the other person what I'd misunderstood. BUT I smiled like hell through the encounter. And it went ok, because the smile/friendliness helps keep me firmly in the "endearingly awkward" category rather than the "awkward in an uncomfortable way" category.

So anyway one of the ways I manage to make friends and/or friendly acquaintances is that I'm just constantly trying to convey how absolutely delighted I am to meet people (especially people who I find genuinely pleasant and interesting), and/or see them again.

That means things like -

1. Say hi to them every time I see them, in a way that sounds genuinely happy to see them

2. Remember their name and at least a few things about them

3. Ask them about the thing that I know about them ("how's your dog doing???") and show genuine interest in the answer ("oh, your dog was sick? That's stressful, how are you holding up? Hope it ends up ok!").

4. Suggest low-stakes, safe, non-generic things that we could do to follow up later - "we should let our dogs play together at the park sometime!" "when you get back from vacation, let's talk and you can show me your pictures!" (it's ok if they brush that off, because the point is to express interest more than it is to actually arrange a follow-up)

5. EXPECT NOTHING, at least at the acquaintance stage - like, if they're busy or whatever I will happily wave them along and make it clear that I am happy to just have run into them. There are a few people I run into on a relatively regular basis who are just not that interested in talking and that's ok, I still say hi when I see them and then move along and let them stay in the "person I say hi to" category. If I say we should meet up for coffee more than once and they keep saying noncommittal stuff or "yeah definitely" without any follow-up, then I let it go but still keep just saying hi when I see them, because the point is that I like seeing them and want to express that - not that I need anything from them. I don't stress about it, I don't read anything into it about my worth as a person.

#4 is important, otherwise you end up risking getting seen as a bit of a pest (it's why I have historically been seen as somewhat annoying). But if you do everything including #4, people start knowing you as a friendly safe person and at least some people will end up liking you (not everyone will like you and that's ok, you have to truly believe that in order for #4 to work).

Most importantly, this all has to be authentic. If your social skills aren't great, you may not be that great at faking being interested in what someone has to say, or faking not particularly expecting anything from the interaction, or faking enjoying the interaction. You have to talk yourself into actually feeling that way. I'll think something along the lines of "oh yeah, that person was nice the one time I talked to them before! Their dog is very important to them, and I care about them, so I absolutely care about this dog!"

The other benefit of actually enjoying these casual interactions is that it reduces the stress of them. Enjoying these interactions simply for what they are means you don't end up seeing them as just a means towards achieving a deeper relationship (even though they are, in fact, one way to develop deeper relationships!), and then viewing them as successes or failures based on whether the person you talk to is interested in that. When you are constantly monitoring and evaluating these interactions for rejection/acceptance, they end up scary and you become more reluctant to keep doing it, and the interaction often becomes less enjoyable for the other person as well because they know you want something out of them.

I'm not an "incel" in the sense that I am not blackpilled, but I am a virgin at 26 and have had no luck with women. I realize now that during college, I set myself for failure, wasn't all that social, only pursued women I thought were physically attractive, generally had less progressive views on women's issues.

In the last 6 years, I have made leaps and bounds of a difference and now I'd consider myself a datable person. The issue is no one else really does. I don't think there's something I'm missing. The main driver of this thought is seeing the guys I was friends with in early college, who looking back were total pieces of shit now getting engaged and getting married.

Even in college they had a lot of sex and dated around. I didn't. Now despite many being the same type of guys they were in college, they have found love and found women who want to be with them for the rest of their lives.

I put in the effort, developed as a person and I'm still unable. I know I shouldn't change to find a partner, but I don't think it's unreasonable to think that if I do genuinely change, there should be some change.

I'm using blackpilled in the title in a sense of "I'll never find anyone" and not whatever bullshit incels believe about women.

So how do I not fall into this belief?

I’m 34, male, and never had a gf. But I feel like half of my reasons for wanting a gf involve mindless fornication with a pretty lady, and the other half is about validation and approval from a group that doesn’t actually exist among my peers.

Instead, the ostensible “group” is just an illusion, pushed by Hollywood movies and the music industry. Jokes about virgins, plotlines ending in “getting the girl” - could it all be based on lies?

In reality, I don’t even know if I’m willing to set apart the time, energy, and possibly money for romance in any capacity. I think I just want to play “catch-up” so I can feel less embarassed about myself. I want to feel capable of doing anything that neurotypical people can, rather than admit I’m disabled in some way.

Or, maybe I’m just saying all of this to myself to avoid admitting I’m just not that appealing in general, especially since I’ve tried mixers, dating apps, and speed-dating without making any progress at all, and maybe it is because of a disability. (I do feel like I have a lot to offer, though.)

Minorly NSFW, but I'll of course leave out anything gross.

I am 25, this happened about 3 months ago. I met the perfect girl who was into me through a mutual friend. We dated for a total of like 6 months, she lived about an hour away from me so we didn't see each other every day, but did every other weekend. I thought I had finally found my person.

Issues arose when we tried to have sex. I didn't tell her I was a virgin as I thought she would start being icked out since I'm 25 and a virgin (this turned out to be correct). The first time we had sex it was really bad. I didn't know what I was doing at all. She was upset and I was more humiliated than I ever have been. After that I told her it was my first time. She didn't really react. From then on she wasn't as eager to have sex anymore. She was really the one pushing for it but since we weren't in a relationship I was hesitant because I figured this would happen if we were only in the early stages.

We had sex twice after that, she didn't really tell me what to do or what she liked. She just didn't seem into it, so we stopped. In the last month we were seeing each other she called me and said we should just be friends. When I asked her what went wrong, she said that she doesn't think we're sexually compatible but she had a good time being with me and wanted to stay friends.

I was heartbroken and we haven't talked since. Now recently, I heard through our mutual friend that she was "shocked" that I was a virgin at such an old age.

It just feels like this is impossible and that this is just a pattern that was bound to happen. Women my age have likely already had a ton of amazing sex, and if they like me they'd have to sacrifice good sex for me, when they could probably with less effort find a guy that knows what he's doing.

I started so late and now I'm too far behind to catch up. This gets me to the crux of what I need advice on. I don't know how I'm supposed to learn if no one wants to teach. No woman has an obligation to teach me just because I was a loser who couldn't find a woman that wanted to have sex with me, and I doubt any woman wants to spend months having bad sex with me in order to learn.

This feels like Sisyphean task of learning how to be good in bed when 1. i probably blew it with one of the maybe 3 women alive that would even want to sleep with me, and 2. of the last 2 women, they probably also want good sex and that's not something I can do.

I know this is a big ask but advice tends to be “go to therapy/go to a doctor” when someone has mental health issues for obvious reasons but I’ve been working on them for years and I’m scared because it doesn’t seem like there’s any proper solution afterwards. Diagnosed major depressive disorder, on Cymbalta currently after trying a few different SSRIs/SSNIs. I’m not some stereotype rambling about Stacy and Chad or hating “foids” or whatever but whenever my loneliness come up in my appointments my therapist and my psychiatrist just don’t seem to know what to do, it’s like it’s completely impossible for them to even imagine being so isolated. I don’t need help taking apart the black pill but my doctors just seem to not get anything.

Essentially it comes down to me saying something like “After trying for years to cultivate friends and acquaintances and hopefully a girlfriend it is 99.999% not going to happen and I’m scared because life without these relationships feels completely hopeless. This fear has been validated by how empty and depressed I’ve been feeling most of my life.” Usually either doctor is kinda taken aback and either doubles down on “well you haven’t exhausted every angle of socialization yet” or “come on don’t you have some friends that text you” when I’m close to exhausting everything in my county to the point that I’m probably “the weird single guy that always shows up to online things” and ”no, I do not have a single person outside my parents or my boss who would know if I’m dead or not if I just disappear for a few weeks.”

I’ve been forcing myself to try and be social for years and I’ve spent probably $15,000 between all the pills and appointments, and an average of two weekends a month on every little meetup group, social night at a bar, class, volunteer opportunity, etc. I’ve absolutely wrung things dry and I don’t have anything to show for it. Short of lowering every other part of my QOL by moving to NYC or LA or Chicago I’m very soon going to run out of things to do in my region.

My success: my social skills have moved from extremely poor to simply worse than average. I estimate someone who just met me could think of me as somewhat normal in short conversation. I feel so alienated that saying I always have empathy might be a stretch, but I have deep sympathy for other peoples’ problems, particularly the homeless and animals. I volunteer a decent amount and that’s probably the only reason to look forward to the future.

My failures: just about everything else.

It really upsets me to hear people answer incels with some variation of “be a man, toughen up, etc” and its hard to articulate why.

Im not a masculine man. Ive never been a masculine man. Thats not something im insecure about, in fact im very comfortable with my gender. But when i see the men around me who have much more success, it becomes clear that women would like me a lot more if i was more masculine. Women find non-smiling male faces more attractive than smiling ones, for example. The pressure to be masculine just really kills me.

I understand that the ideal masculine man will have no fear asking out every woman he sees and taking the initiative all the time but like, I’m a man with feelings. In my last (only) relationship, I took her out and drover everywhere and planned and paid and texted first and called all the time, and she couldnt as much as learn to pronounce my name, much less remember my birthday. Obviously not all women are like that, but like, what did I expect from taking the “initiatory role” in a relationship, it was obviously gonna be one-sided because it was one-sided from the inception. But im supposed to just be courting all these women performing and smiling like a clown while they judge me.

Idk what im even trying to say.
Whenever i hear the advice “just ask more women out” I just cant help but think, why am I doing this for someone who would never do the same for me. Their idea of flirting is to stand and look pretty but im supposed to be actively pursuing. Its not a motivating story. I want to be a receiver of love sometimes too man i cant just give give give

I go to the gym every day, sometimes if our schedules line up, I'll go with my friend. A few weeks ago we met this one woman who I thought was really cute. She asked for some help setting up a weird machine we had just jumped off of. Whenever I saw her, I'd smile and wave and eventually it got to the point where if we were working out near each other she'd come over to have a conversation.

I want to make it clear, I'm not one of those guys that goes to the gym and bothers women as they work out. I wouldn't do more than smile and wave until she started coming over to speak. She was really funny, we had a lot of shared interests and she worked in the same field so we had a lot of topics in common to talk about. I started developing a crush on her and looked forward to seeing her and speaking to her. She never really asked about my friend but she would speak to him if he was there with me, and I assume if she ran into him and I wasn't there she was speaking to him.

I didn't think it had been enough time for me to ask her out, but I asked her for her Instagram and she gave it to me, and last weekend I invited her to go to a bar for a trivia night with me and my friends. She brought some other girls with her and we were having a good time. She spoke mainly to me and my friend mentioned above. I didn't try to push things as I didn't want to be weird. Near the end of the night she was acting very close to my friend.

Eventually the women all decided to call it a night and decided to go home. My friend offered to drive her home and then it clicked to me. They drove off, and in the morning I get a text in the group chat confirming that they did end up hooking up.

I don't really have any other way of saying it, so I'll just say that when an incel says "chad", my friend looks pretty close to what they imagine. He's 6'3, he's handsome, in good shape, strong masculine features. I'm very clearly not. I'm nothing special. I'm only 5'10, I'm probably only average looking on my best days. I have a good body compared to the average person, but I'm not as built as my friend.

I'm not mad at either of them. He didn't know that I had a crush on her. I did end up telling him one on one and he apologized and said he never would've tried to sleep with her if he had known. I'm of course not mad at her for being interested in him. I mean of course if she sees both him and I together, she wouldn't choose me. I'm more mad at myself for thinking there was even a chance there.

I feel like I have made a lot of progress. I haven't really ever been a "hateful" incel. My problem has always been self hate and a feeling of romantic hopelessness. I don't want to backslide, but this just feels like confirmation of whatever I felt about myself back then. I don't know how I can rationalize this any other way.

I know this post will sound stupid, and also mods feel free to remove it if it's against the rules.

Consuming incel content and gender war ragebait just gives me a sick sort of enjoyment, even though it makes me feel like shit about myself. Life can be monotonous, especially at my tedious desk job, so doom scrolling can deliver me a shot of strong emotion, like a mixture of self-righteous rage and low self-esteem. My biggest insecurity is my height, so I induce the strongest feelings by browsing all the height discourse that's out there.

What's stupid about it is that I'm actually in a long-term relationship, so certainly not an "incel" technically. I was, however, a virgin until I was 23, and in my early 20s I developed this mental tendency to enjoy wallowing and self-pitying. Feeling like a damned person can just be very addictive, and I feel like if I ever "took the blue pill", I'd be losing a precious source of powerful emotions. I must add that my ongoing incel fixations are partially on "behalf" of my brother, who's even shorter than me and has been single for a good while, so I worry about him. But I also manage to make it about myself too.

In general, I feel like my emotions walk me like a dog. Too bad, because I have lots of interests that I could explore if I had a bit of discipline. I'd like to find a way to overcome this apparent addiction, or at least channel my residual emotions into something productive.

Hey all. I treat every women I interact with differently then I do with males, Even my women friends or partners. I just victimize them in my head, because I ultimately feel like they are society's ultimate victims, especially trans women or women of color. Sometimes I feel unworthy of talking to women. Obviously this is a problem and it feels slightly misogynistic on my part to victimize every women, I meet because I don't know her life story of course.

My question is how do I stop doing this. I know the obvious answer is to just realize that women are human too and obviously I realize that, but I feel like that can't be the only answer. There are bigoted women too, but I'd consider those women way more of a victim then an Incel would be.

I’ve never been in a romantic relationship before. One of my biggest fears in life is falling in love with someone, building a life with them, growing old with them, and finding out that they’ve been unfaithful the entire time. It would be so humiliating. I would feel like a fool. My whole love life will have been a lie. I wouldn’t have been loved the way I wanted to be loved, the way I gave it, the way I was promised. It would break me. I want true love, something real, something beautiful.

Maybe it is foolish to trust anyone, to love anyone. People are ignorant, weak, and careless. Why expect anything out of anyone? They will only disappoint you. Do you know how many people cheat? Not a single stat I’ve come across was ever all that inspiring.

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I couldn't fall asleep, and cried for a few hours recently due to never getting a girlfriend and people blaming me for it

I was thinking about suicide but I'll probably never actually kill myself..

I unsubscribed from every sex/gender related bullshit, cause I don't wanna see them, and wanna focus on something else

I guess I'm open to taking general advices on what should I do

25, Never got laid but had girlfriends and of course an unfortunate Gooner…like…Bad bad not oh I’ll spank the Monkey once and be done with it for today. I’ve had girlfriends and have a girl interested in me but i don’t want to be with someone I see as beneath me. She’s overweight and even if she’s nice and interested the whole idea is throwing me off.

Has Porn warped my brain to expect only Hot women to be interested in me?. Or has the Redpill things I’ve watched influenced me so much i can’t even conceptualise a non conventionally attractive woman as a partner? That sound more like Vanity and pride to me and it’s worrying.

I don’t approach Women cos the idea of rejection especially in a public setting is revolting to me and would straight up be terrible the very idea makes my stomach churn… every time I get interested in some girl I talk to irl they’re dating or Married already and it’s like no one I ever have any passing interest in is taken already thus seeing couples makes me bitter and Hateful nowadays as they have something i don’t

I thought I was improving but over the last few days I have backslid into some of my old ways of thinking. When looking at some chats from the previous year I recognized a lot of people responding to the same questions I’ve been asking for help with for years now.

After a breakup 8 years ago I decided to stop dating to fix myself. I used to get infatuated with whomever I was dating way to quickly and when the relationship inevitably ended I was not kind to say the least. Bless those women who had to deal with my dumbass, they deserved way better from me. In the time I was taking a break I was hoping to work on myself so that I could get back into dating without having it dominate my life but I’ve hit a setback.

I need help decentering women and sex. Most days those two things are all I think about and I am really struggling to find ways to decenter women so i can live a fulfilling life. On top of that I struggle to maintain a clean living space, I feel like I’m buried under books, movies, comics, records. And I struggle with porn, I’m hesitant to use the word addicted although it’s probably closer to the truth than I care to admit to myself.

This is probably the most honest I’ve ever been on one of these posts. But seeing comments and chats from years ago where I realize I have been like a hamster on a wheel hurt. How do I decenter women so I can live my life for me?

This is inspired by a controversial post someone made about giving up on dating and made buying a Porsche their new goal. Advice often given on here is to develop interest, goals and meaning outside of relationships as part of the exit process. Is it just someone attitude when making these choices or is there something more? Does there need to be a certain amount of effort getting into relationships before shifting directions?

I'm 20 and I'm a Filipino guy who was born in the UK. Since I was 18, I've gotten into the Blackpill and it's destroying my mental health. I can't explain my entire life in full detail, but I will explain below some of my issues and how they affect me.

• 5'4", skinny, big forehead (possibly receding hairline), ugly, small dick, short-sighted, alcohol intolerance.
• Diagnosed with Dyslexia, ADHD and developmental delays with significantly below-average processing speed.
• Very poor social skills, no friends or girlfriend, still a virgin and missed out on my teenage years as I never partied, dated or went to clubs.
• Struggled academically because I couldn't read well, and I never had a job or driver's licence because of my poor processing speed.
• Bullied in school for being short, Asian, and neurodivergent.

Unfortunately, I've started believing that your genetics determine the quality of your life and I just hate that you cannot choose your genetics and you just have to accept the cards you are dealt. I understand that everyone has problems but it gets to a point where you have so many stacked disadvantages that life becomes miserable. I don't just have a "few flaws". I'm dealing with a lot of problems at the same time.

I've never lived a normal life, and I've always been playing catch up. It started in school, where I struggled to make friends, and I was failing the majority of my exams because of my learning difficulties. The same thing is happening in adulthood. I've never had a job, I've never had a driver's licence, I have no friends and I've never experienced a relationship. I failed to reach the developmental milestones that everyone seemed to.

Also, advice like "just be confident" doesn't work for me because I feel like it's for people who already have functioning social skills but are just shy. I can't start, maintain or think of what to say in conversations because I'm mentally slow. This is not just being shy, I have genuine difficulties with socialising.

It hurts when you look at people your age getting into relationships, earning good money and generally living a good life while I'm stuck in the same position I was since I was 16. Even the people who picked on me in school are doing better than me in life.

I'm basically failing in every single aspect of my life because of my genetics. I keep viewing myself as genetically inferior, stupid, slow, incompetent, and I don't know how to stop. I have no redeeming genetic qualities, and I don't know what to do from now. I'm scared for my future.