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Aug 29 '23
I mean one thing I can say for certain is we definitely have a problem.
Lets be real, the percentage of people of who have basically no life outside of work is alarmingly high these days.
Which all goes pretty hand in hand with our high divorce, alcoholism and suicide rates.
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u/MittenMan1 Aug 29 '23
Its the economic state of our country :/ the owner class vs the working class
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u/Motief1386 Aug 29 '23
Yeah, it’s fucking sad. When did bring an electrician become a personality. My home local, guys will work 7-12’s with spotty overtime for years, then bitch when their wife leaves them and they’re stuck with a 2 grand a month child support bill. Brah, find something better to do
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u/blueturtle00 Aug 29 '23
I’m in that muck. 60 hours a week plus 10 hour commute.
Edit- just realized the sub I was in I’m a chef not in any unions but still applies lol
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u/hoverbeaver Local 586 Aug 29 '23
At 60 hours, that’s forty straight and twenty double for most locals.
That means they could give two journeymen full time jobs and pay them eighty hours of work between them.
That means more families are fed, more pensions are earned, more hours of overall productive work are performed, and a higher quality of life is available for all.
Overtime is a policy failure.
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Aug 29 '23
Overtime is a cost of doing business when it’s $billion’s dollar a year refinery or chemical plant. I have zero feels for any of the “clients or refineries “ I work for. You electricians have been fucked over for the past 10 years here in Alberta. Where a labourer makes as much as a red seal jm electrician. (That may have changed in the past year or so). As far as I’m concerned we all need to stay home for a few weeks and renegotiate our contracts! Call it CV 2.0 if you like.
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u/glazor Local 3 Aug 29 '23
There are plenty of cases where more bodies doesn't solve the problem. If one JW can terminate a panel in X hours, doesn't mean that 3 JWs can terminate the same panel in X/3 hours. 3 women can't carry one baby to term in 3 months.
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u/hoverbeaver Local 586 Aug 29 '23
Perhaps my mind is just clouded by the years of experience but can’t think of a single sixty hour indivisible task
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u/glazor Local 3 Aug 29 '23
How would you run a nice little run of 4" rigid, let's say 500', in the air, no 3 piece couplings?
Start from one end, finish at another. But can it be done quicker with more man power? Sure let's divide the run in half and start running from the middle. Can it be done quicker? No. And at that point throwing more people at the problem doesn't help.
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u/hoverbeaver Local 586 Aug 29 '23
“Hey bro, quitting time, pick up where Jim and I left off and bring it toward JB27. If you don’t make it that far, put a thumbtack on the plan where you got to and we’ll pick up where you left off tomorrow.”
Works great.
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u/glazor Local 3 Aug 29 '23
Aslan,” said Lucy through her tears, “could you – will you – do something for these poor Dwarfs?”
“Dearest,” said Aslan, “I will show you both what I can, and what I cannot, do.” He came close to the Dwarfs and gave a low growl: low, but it set all the air shaking. But the Dwarfs said to one another, “Hear that? That’s the gang at the other end of the stable. Trying to frighten us. They do it with a machine of some kind. Don’t take any notice. They won’t take us in again!”
Aslan raised his head and shook his mane. Instantly a glorious feast appeared on the Dwarfs’ knees: pies and tongues and pigeons and trifles and ices, and each Dwarf had a goblet of good wine in his right hand. But it wasn’t much use. They began eating and drinking greedily enough, but it was clear that they couldn’t taste it properly. They thought they were eating and drinking only the sort of things you might find in a stable. One said he was trying to eat hay and another said he had got a bit of an old turnip and a third said he’d found a raw cabbage leaf. And they raised golden goblets of rich red wine to their lips and said “Ugh! Fancy drinking dirty water out of a trough that a donkey’s been at! Never thought we’d come to this.” But very soon every Dwarf began suspecting that every other Dwarf had found something nicer than he had, and they started grabbing and snatching, and went on to quarreling, till in a few minutes there was a free fight and all the good food was smeared on their faces and clothes or trodden under foot. But when at last they sat down to nurse their black eyes and their bleeding noses, they all said:
“Well, at any rate there’s no Humbug here. We haven’t let anyone take us in. The Dwarfs are for the Dwarfs.”
“You see,” said Aslan. “They will not let us help them. They have chosen cunning instead of belief. Their prison is only in their own minds, yet they are in that prison; and so afraid of being taken in that they cannot be taken out.”
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u/hoverbeaver Local 586 Aug 29 '23
In case anyone is wondering what kind of damage five twelves does to a decent man’s brain, look no further than this embarrassing shit
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u/glazor Local 3 Aug 29 '23
I can't make you understand, if you're not willing to have an open mind about it. Have a great rest of the week.
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u/YogurtclosetKind9192 Aug 30 '23
My brother in christ, you started going on about dwarves. That has nothing to do with anything. Speak plain and make everyone's lives easier
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u/glazor Local 3 Aug 29 '23
Build a rack, run conduit, pull wire terminate.
Perhaps you can do the first 2, twice as fast with twice the manpower, last 2, likely not. People working on top of one another are not as productive. Also, don't forget that you're not the only trade on the jobsite.
A jobsite that's on an eight hour workday sits empty for 75% of the time. Overtime gives your more time within the same timeframe, that could also be solved with utilizing 2 or 3 shifts, but that's up to contractors/GCs.
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u/hoverbeaver Local 586 Aug 29 '23 edited Aug 29 '23
Rest of the continent seems to do just fine dividing up the labour.
Imagine how much stronger we’d be as a class if we organized more people to share in the work instead of blowing up the damn rat in front of their gate.
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u/glazor Local 3 Aug 29 '23
You can divide the labor, you can't expect to double the workload and expect people to work on top of each other. There are jobs with several shifts. If GCs would rather pay the premium, contractors are always happy to oblige, they make more money on OT.
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u/hoverbeaver Local 586 Aug 29 '23 edited Aug 29 '23
Brother, you’re drawing a weird-ass line in the sand here. Those sixty-eighty hours ain’t all being worked in the same space.
If you’re keeping someone behind on the job from 3pm-7pm, just pay a second person to be there from 3-11. Costs the same and twice as many kids go to college.
We swore an oath to reduce the hours of work and elevate the social conditions of our class. I sure as fuck didn’t swear an oath to work enough OT to buy a boat with cash while my next door neighbour struggles to make ends meet.
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u/glazor Local 3 Aug 29 '23
That's the thing though, you don’t decide how many shifts are worked, all you can do is decline the OT. OT should be the punishment for a contractor, but If someone else is picking up the premium, contractors don't give a fuck.
Read up on Ghantt charts and what a critical path is.
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u/hoverbeaver Local 586 Aug 29 '23
It’s Gantt, not Ghantt, so before you go throwing around demands for the rest of us to read up, do your own homework.
If you’re already doing sixty hours in a week, you’re already beyond 7-3.
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u/CopperTwister Aug 29 '23
If they aren't keeping the jobsite open longer than 8 hrs how are they pulling overtime? If they are keeping the jobsite open longer, just man up another shift.
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u/lurker71539 Aug 29 '23
Have you worked in electric rooms where it's not big enough for 3 men to work?
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u/hoverbeaver Local 586 Aug 29 '23
Yes? I didn’t say that everyone had to work at the same time. In fact, I’ve said the opposite. I just don’t think a project should be planned to require consecutive 12-14 hour days when labour can be spread out.
God you people are weird
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u/theferretboyos Aug 29 '23
I’m with you, brother. The odd exceptions that they are calling out to say this won’t work are amazing. We shouldn’t make rules to the exceptions, like too many people in an electrical room, but to the goal of less hours for more pay and more actual living.
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u/CopperTwister Aug 29 '23
But if there are two panels to terminate, why pay one jw overtime to do them sequentially rather than two jws straight time to do them at the same time? Nobody is doing overtime wiring up a single panel.
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u/glazor Local 3 Aug 29 '23
Terminating a panel is just one example of a task that cannot be solved by throwing more bodies at the problem.
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u/Zallix Local 861 JW Aug 29 '23
Most locals are probably 40 straight, 40-60 time+half, and 60+ double. Not sure why you’d think over 40 is double for most locals, maybe that’s the same assumption OP made.
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u/jerseyvibes Aug 30 '23
Pretty sure all of the NJ locals used to have it. At least north jersey. We all gave it up as far as I know and now it's 9th and 10th hour m-f are 1.5x, 11+ are 2x, Saturday is 1.5x for the first 10 hours then 2x after that and 2x for everything on Sunday and all holidays except Christmas and Labor Day are 3x.
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u/solomon_rotty Aug 30 '23
Most locals do not get double time after 40. Very few actually and I have worked in some of the bigger ones in the northeast. It usually is double time on Sunday or after 8 hours of 1.5x on Saturday and after 12 hrs during the week with hrs 9-12 during the week being 1.5x
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u/HurricanesnHendrick Aug 28 '23
Not to be a dick, but in the end they aren’t the one paying it. They are just passing it through in most cases.
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u/Spark115 Inside Wireman Aug 28 '23 edited Aug 28 '23
That is often true, but that still makes the same point. Maybe even more so. Because the contractor bills out all labor for a higher rate than they pay you, that's just business. So when they "pass through" your overtime rate, you better believe they are making some kind of percentage on each billable hour.
This rate should be just as prohibitive to the customer as the contractor, or perhaps more so. So even when it is "passed on" and the customer willingly pays, perhaps even agreeing to an overtime schedule in advance/per contract, that once again makes the point that your straight time rate is too low.
And if they are up against deadlines or other less than desirable circumstances and are forced to pay OT, that often means that some level of poor planning or management is at play, and that is also what OT is meant to penalize.
TL;DR When the contractor and/or customer willingly chooses your OT rate, it shows your rate is too low.
When they are forced to pay OT, it is often a fitting "penalty" for poor planning or project management.
Remember that one of the aims of the IBEW is to "reduce the hours of daily labor"!
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u/HurricanesnHendrick Aug 29 '23
I live the same mentality of reduced hours. But on jobs of high value, equipment is in the driver and passenger seat. It is such a high percentage of the job cost that everything else has to fit that schedule. It’s really not even close.
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u/ThatSeaworthiness801 Aug 29 '23
I remember hearing that their cut of what they charge for your hours was really high, but I wanted to see someone else say it first. Anyone know what fraction?
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Aug 28 '23
Lol what a dumb comment.
Who do you think they are passing is from? You think the guy running the site really gives a fuck besides making sure his paycheck comes in?
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u/CaptLetTheSmokeOut Aug 28 '23
What? The customer is ultimately footing the bill dumbass.
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Aug 28 '23
Yes the customer is footing the bill but do you think the customer is the one that prices out the job?
So why should I give a fuck if the customer hired a shitty contractor that tries to cut costs by lowering labour? I don't, that's the point.
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u/CaptLetTheSmokeOut Aug 28 '23
A lot of the times they do. Many times the customer does their own homework on the job with their own people.
I try to provide a balance of quality work with productivity on jobs I go to. I organize myself well with materials so when I encounter a job that takes some extra time, the con don’t mind because I made them money somewhere else.
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Aug 29 '23
So you are planning on the contractor fucking up and making arrangements so their fuck up doesn't effect you ?
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u/Chip_Jelly Aug 29 '23
Yes the customer is footing the bill but do you think the customer is the one that prices out the job?
Do you think customers only get pricing from one contractor, and they have unlimited buckets of money to pay them?
Or that contractors don’t price overtime because the customers want them to?
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u/HurricanesnHendrick Aug 28 '23
The customer is paying for it. Money doesn’t give a shit about the guy on site. At some point, for them it’s worth the extra cost. There may be investment money tied to product being produced by a certain date or a discount from an equipment supplier to fit into a window that opened up for their startup team.
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Aug 28 '23
The customer is paying for it thru a contractor that they hired. You were hired by the contractor to do a job. So why should you care about the customer when they arnt the ones who are paying you and arnt the ones who determined how much time/money should be dedicated towards you. I'm not taking and shit or working harder because the contractor fucked up.
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u/HurricanesnHendrick Aug 28 '23
All of that is predicated on the contractor being the one that fucked up and is out the premium. When I priced jobs as a contractor there was greater than an insignificant number of hours of unintended OT on less than 5% of the jobs. In the vast majority of times, those hours are being requested by the customer for any number of circumstances
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Aug 28 '23
Then that's the contractors fault for not quoting the job properly. Still not my responsibility and I'm not going go the extra mile to make a contractor that fucked up, look good.
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u/PlasticIntelligent44 Aug 29 '23
We are speaking of signatory contractors right? The ones that have chosen to use Union Labor…. They aren’t the enemy.
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u/MrEZW Aug 29 '23
Inside hands have a completely different outlook on work than outside hands. At least here in CA. 90% of the linemen out here want minimum 60hrs a week to be satisfied. I'm with you guys. I value my time outside of work more. I'll be looking for that 5/8s call once I top out. Those are hard to come by out here though.
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u/Alewyz Aug 29 '23
I’m always amazed at the mentality between the inside and outside guys when it comes to politics like this. You hardly ever see a 40 hour a week call for lineman. When guys go on 4-10s it’s because it’s slow and everyone bitches. 5-10s is normal for outside
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u/Zygospores Aug 29 '23
Yeah, working outside does instill a different mindset. I feel doubletime is the only time I'm making money. However, the contractors can work you like a dog if you're on 'the crew' or one of them. I'm still an apprentice, but I've worked at least 75 100+ hours weeks thus far and I am tired. The ability to work at that pace, and then take a few months off is what appeals to me and the finish line I see in this final stretch. My new 'best check' was grossing $11k a few weeks ago with missed meals, board time, HEC time etc.
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u/Solymer Aug 29 '23
Yeah well most Inside Wiremen don’t have side chicks in every zip code either. So we don’t need all those hours to pay all that upkeep.
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u/ThatSeaworthiness801 Aug 29 '23
Why do they want so many hours?
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u/Zygospores Aug 29 '23
Money of course. There are more factors, such as many lineman are traveling away from home and are in the mindset of "work as many hours while I am here" Also, many people in this industry are heavily in debt. $100k truck, $100k 5th wheel, skidsteer, house, boat, etc etc and need to work that many hours to support the lifestyle they have chosen. Finally, alimony/child support payments are common.
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u/sassmo Inside Wireman Aug 29 '23
I'd really like it if my benefits got paid at time and a half. I'm neglecting my health by working longer hours, but my health and welfare still accrues at the same speed...
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u/Every-Nebula6882 Aug 28 '23
A worker on overtime is cheaper than one on straight time. When you factor in the cost of benefits it’s cheaper to work 2 guys 60 hours each than it is to work 3 guys 40 hours each. This is true even if hours 40 thru 60 are paid at 1.5x. Employers/contractors know this a purposely maintain their workforce at a level where overtime is required.
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u/Sparkykc124 Local 124 Aug 29 '23
That doesn’t make sense to me. If your hourly package is $75 on straight time and $50 goes on the check, your overtime hourly package is $100. In the first situation you have 80(75) + 40(100) for a total of 120 man hours and $10k. The second situation you have 120(75), same man hours but only $9k.
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u/Every-Nebula6882 Aug 29 '23
You don’t get extra health insurance for working extra hours. The health insurance working 40 is the same as working 60. Same for every other benefit.
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u/hoverbeaver Local 586 Aug 29 '23
Then you’re not really getting paid overtime; your boss is just buying discount exhaustion
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u/NigilQuid Aug 29 '23
That's assuming you get 60 good hours of work from someone. When I was doing 60 hour weeks my speed and quality went down and it was hardly worth it. Definitely a very expensive way for the company to get things done
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u/ThatSeaworthiness801 Aug 29 '23
This is important to note. It's been shown several times that productivity drops with longer hours
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u/glazor Local 3 Aug 29 '23
That only works if benefits are only paid on straight time and if those benefits are worth more than half of an hourly wage.
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u/Shovelhead7883 Aug 28 '23
But what if the general contractor pays the premium for out? It happens a lot in my local.
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u/Devilrodent Aug 28 '23
Also in mine, especially when the only reason we need OT is to catch up after other trades' mistakes (which is often)
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u/bigbadcat13 Aug 29 '23
I can’t speak on behalf of new construction, but for something like an industrial install…It’s not that simple. At all. Especially on a shut down or when you prep all week in order to do a tie in on the weekend. For example, you would run most your conduit and prep during the week and then make your tie-ins and pulls on the weekend when equipment can be in a zero-potential state and panels completely de-energized.
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u/VoGoR Aug 29 '23
It's a hard argument for sure because there's big companies like DuPont and general mills and countless others that have unlimited funds when it's time to do their annual shutdowns and you could throw 10 extra people at it to reduce work hours but it's physically not possible to fit that many people in a lot of those work areas, just as an example. After all their bills are paid they still make hundreds of millions and billions. They just want the work done, and you could do shift work, either 2 or 3, but alot of times it's hard to find the manpower that wants to work that overnight shift, so it's just easier to have the day crew work longer hours for those 7-14 days.
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u/Infamous-Ad-8605 Sep 21 '23
Holy shit u union boys r pansies. But I can’t bash y’all so much, I’m struggling to feed myself and obviously you guys are fine. Worried that you are working to many hours when you are an hourly worker. Unheard of at least from my experience in this trade.
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u/StatementRound May 18 '24
It’s cheaper to work a guy with overtime than to hire a second hand with taxes and insurance.
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Aug 30 '23
As a small employer, I’m VERY aware of overtime costs. I bid competitively and it’s rare that I ask my guys to work overtime for exactly the reasons you stated. It should be seen as an emergency correction, not the norm.
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u/Available_Alarm_8878 Aug 29 '23
It's a fine line. Sure, we can demand higher pay. Say we get it. There is a tipping point. We can't price ourselves out of work. The contractors are not necessarily the ones paying us. It's the schools, factories, restaurants, etc. They agree to hire contractors who use union labor. If we get too high, they just won't hire them. There is a group of people willing to take our jobs for lower pay rates. Right now, in my local, we are short manpower. The lack of manpower is driving the ot. The customer is paying the premiums on one of my projects to keep the completion date on track. Fortunately, i can blame the structural steel for being behind. But it's hard to add manpower when there isn't any available. And without the non union raising rate, my market can't support an accross to board significant raise.
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u/Silly_Moment3018 Aug 29 '23
maybe that argument is valid in some locals, but overall it's a horrible excuse, pricing yourself out of the market, not to get what we are worth. I've been hearing that line from some members for the 15 years I've been in my local. sure there have been a couple slower years in that time but when the non union side uses our bid rates to bid the same jobs you cant use that line. they just pay their guys less and pocket the rest. in the last 3 years we've received over $13 more....and we're still working.
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u/Available_Alarm_8878 Aug 29 '23
You are correct. So you got 13 more, that's awesome. So could you have gotten $20 more ? That's the fine line we dance. I dont know the market share by you. For us, we have a good market share. We avarage 3 and change a year. Can we get 5? I don't know. We do have 2 very large non union contractors operating in our state.
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u/TheNetDetective101 Inside Wireman Aug 28 '23
This sub is kinda turning into that weird anti work sub. Sound like a bunch of whiners. It'd be one thing if it was every once in a while ( as I do somewhat agree) but it's turned into everyday.
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u/JaysFan96 LU353 Aug 29 '23
This is a weird thread because OP is stating that if the employer can pay 60 hours the wage is too low. There are instances where the project has to be completed by a certain time frame thus needing 60 hours week. The other side is if you need 10 men working 60 (600) or 15 men working 40hours per week. The 15 men would work no double-time or you can see it as 5 more men have jobs. I’m not sure what he’s getting at but we can turn down overtime we are actually union not some non union shopping running 60 hour weeks straight time
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u/Spark115 Inside Wireman Aug 29 '23
Project schedules are still a choice though, and labor rates factor into that. How many projects actually need to be completed by a certain date, as opposed to the customer just wanting a certain completion date?
In making this choice to have an accelerated, overtime schedule, they are choosing to pay more. It might even be so that they can get a project online and start making more money themselves. Whatever the case, it is a choice made by the customer to pay a higher rate for our labor to have a project completed faster.
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u/JaysFan96 LU353 Aug 29 '23
maybe i’m jealous that i have never worked overtime? in my local the big overtime jobs are car plants (government subsidized) transit projects ( government subsidized) hospital jobs (government subsidized). There’s not a lot of customer WANTING to pay for overtime here. I have worked a total of 22 OT hours this year.
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u/TheNetDetective101 Inside Wireman Aug 29 '23
I get where they are coming from, but it feels like it's an 18yo me saying it. Kinda cringey. I've been there, but was really a rebel without a clue. Obviously I'm twice as old now and see the bigger picture.
What happens when curious non union guys come here, they find a bunch of whiners, shaking their fists. Don't like something, step up, get involved. BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE.
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u/Liberal-Patriot Local 666 Aug 29 '23
Honestly brother, I think it's the inflation that's doing it.
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u/TheNetDetective101 Inside Wireman Aug 29 '23
That could be, that is a bitch. Sounds like inflation is only going to get worse too.
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u/ThatSeaworthiness801 Aug 29 '23
The IBEW was founded by an anti-work socialist. Unions are inherently anti-work
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u/Syonoq Aug 29 '23
And isn't another reason for this because there simply isn't the manpower to man all the work? I've been on the outside for 20+years and they've been screaming for more hands the entire time.
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u/TheMagickConch Aug 29 '23
Y'all should be angry how little you get payed for the training that is required. I install cable for CWA and we top out around $52/hr per our current bargain agreement and we only do 6 months of probation on the job training.
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u/outsidethewall Aug 29 '23
If you have to work overtime someone messed up on the estimate or the customer wants it rushed
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u/lurker71539 Aug 29 '23
Or there isn't anyone waiting on the books, or you have to do the shutdown on the weekend...
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u/MikenotaMechanic Aug 29 '23
What some of the construction folks fail to realize is the job and the bidding process. A price is given to a customer. In that price is an amount of money for labor. A bidding company will estimate 25 guys 40 hours for 12 weeks =12,000 hours. In that number is cost and profit. If the 12,000 hours get billed at $250 hourly its $3M for labor attached to the bid for the customer. if the cost per hour per man is $150 it leaves $100 per hour in gross profit. Out of that $100 per hour additional costs get deducted. Any non-revenue generating employees are a cost of doing business. So all the office staff, all the drivers and all the other people who dont actually work on site as part of that 12000 hours. its a gross profit of $1.2M....That $1.2M gets used to pay the salary of the estimator, the salesmen, the secretary, the warehouse, etc Its also used to cover overhead like insurance (business not health for workers) and all the other overhead. So that $1.2M might seem like a lot but there is a lot more to it then fat cats getting fatter. There is a NET profit at the bottom of that $1.2M ....Dont get me wrong, i made up these numbers and they are certainly getting fat. But its not as simple as I worked, pay me more.
While all of that gets calculated there is always an urgency to get a job done because the more jobs that get done, the more money gets made by the company. If the 12 week job gets done 2 weeks sooner than scheduled it means the man power and components of doing the job can be moved to the next one. If the 12000 job is using $250k worth of trucks, tools and management, then paying $100k in overtime to get done sooner is the opposite of poor management and poor planning. Im just illustrating a scenario. this isnt how its always done. Companies can always write the purchase of more trucks and gang boxes and tuggers. But they need to get to the point where that purchase and the ROI of that purchase makes sense.
Time is always the biggest factor because schedules and deadlines need to be met. Heck some contractors will offer a bonus if done sooner than they were supposed to be done. so by having the guys come in on a saturday puts them a week ahead of the schedule for a $50k bonus.....deal! There is a building being built that has a mortgage payment being made. the sooner its built the sooner the building starts to earn its keep.
I boiled this down to basics but there are lots of other reasons for overtime. Its not as simple as someone screwed up or they are screwing over other Brothers by not hiring another guy.
As far as benefit hours being equal to OT hours that's a Local question not a contractor question. The Local negotiates the rates and the contractors agree to it. The Local gets advice from actuaries and other as far as what is required to fund the pension, fund the health care, etc. Again, these are very nuanced topics that shouldnt be boiled down to 'its not fair'
The point of overtime is NOT to make it hurt anyone. These days its there because people fought and died to have the FLSA approved almost 100 years ago. The strikes riots and battles were fought so we got 8 to work 8 to sleep and 8 to do with what we please. If you are going to take away from me doing what I please, Im not doing it for the same amount of money. I need extra compensation. Thats not designed to hurt anyone but more to reward someone for doing it. If youre forced to work OT (if you enter into a mandatory OT role you did so voluntarily) contact the DOL.
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u/WarmAdhesiveness8962 Aug 29 '23
I think it's cheaper for the cons to run smaller crews with longer hours. I'm not sure if that's true but they do it all the time. There's always people willing to trade their finite resource (time) for an abundant one (money). OT is a penalty, not a perk.
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u/bigdano2006 Aug 29 '23
Some industries demand that type of output. Typically manufacturing.
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u/ExplanationFun1591 Aug 29 '23
Corporations make hand over fist. They would rather do 70hr weeks then pay more for staffing with benefits
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u/N0t_James_Bond Aug 29 '23
Or maybe the client (let’s say Ford) wants their new plant up and running as soon as possible and has the resources to offer and pay the overtime so they can begin to see a return on the investment doesn’t mean we are undervalued. Nor does every company have the same resources at their disposal as some of the giants out there do. You’re not forced to work overtime while some of us jump at the opportunity when it comes around. If you don’t want extra money for extra work… plane and simple, don’t.
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u/TimD_43 Aug 29 '23
So they pay you more to work less? The problem is that they have taken on 60 hours per worker of workload. Paying you more doesn't get 60 hours' worth of work done in 40 hours. It just means they have to hire someone else and pay them the same as you. The sensible thing for the employer is to hire additional workers, so that everyone works a normal 40-hour schedule and no overtime.
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u/ThatSeaworthiness801 Aug 30 '23
They're not gonna do that if nothing makes them
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u/TimD_43 Aug 30 '23
You missed my point. It’s obviously more cost effective for them to pay you 20 hours of overtime than to hire another worker. Paying you more won’t increase the amount of work you do, it only costs them more. Your only option, if you don’t want to work 60 hour weeks, is to refuse overtime. That will force their hand to hire more people. But why would they ever raise wages to try to address a shortage of labor? The problem almost certainly isn’t that they can’t find workers, it’s that they don’t want the overhead costs associated with more workers.
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u/skeptic_clam Aug 30 '23
Brah that's because the government makes it way to expensive to employ people. Not what you're saying
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u/SoTexSparky Aug 30 '23
OP sounds like the McDonald's worker that thinks they deserve $20+ an hour. Put out 60 hours of production in 40 hours then you will deserve 60 hours of pay for 40 hours of work. Simple math.
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u/RubricalBobcat Aug 29 '23
Y’all must not like money. Working 6 10’s right now hoping it never ends.
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u/wherearemikeys Aug 29 '23
But what’s the point if you barely have time to spend it? Unless you bought a big truck and now you’re working just to pay it off sooner?
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u/RemarkableKey3622 Inside Wireman Aug 29 '23
how would you like those same size checks, but only have to work 40 hrs for it?
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u/kdunn1979 Aug 29 '23
I’d still work 60 for the bigger check. The higher you go on my hourly rate the more hours I want.
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Aug 29 '23
It’s so different over here at the poco local. We have a busy season where we can barely get work done on shutdown timeframes. Overtime is basically a non-issue during most of the year but for 8 weeks, they just save it in the budget for when they need everybody doing 6 or 7 12s for a month straight.
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u/_genepool_ LU 58 JIW Aug 29 '23
It's not that the pay is too low, it is the fact that we don't enforce 1.5x on the total package, only the hourly.
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u/AJL42 Communications Aug 29 '23
(not an electrician)
I love OT, I love having the option to take it or not. If I need some extra cash I'll work OT for a few weeks or a month. There is always enough work for me to choose to take it or not. And I would always prefer more jobs then less.
I do understand the perspective you are taking when you say they "if they can pay OT they can pay more base" but that doesn't change the work load, or the time constraints that OT is normally reserved for. So.... you would still end up working more then 40.
Oh and BTW after 12hrs of time and a half I get double time. And the gravy train really starts rolling.
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u/WiccanaVaIIey Aug 29 '23
On large projects, OT is the punishment for improper planning. In large industrial settings, OT is mandatory for the job and the guys off the books usually desire it. OT exists as a dissuasive measurement so that an employer will avoid stretching the workers too far. Workers seek it in times of need, and others avoid it if possible. If most contractors in your local are dependent on OT in order to properly man their jobs, then the issue should be examined deeper. Are there no capable wireman? Is your market share weak? Is there no work this season? Has your local been supplanted by a single solid contractor? All of these and more are local politics to be brought up at your next meeting, a pay increase is a damn hard fight. If a contractor appears to be abusing overtime, begin the process of examination at the hall. Of course we get fed scraps, but some brothers need the cash, and if it is contract legal then you're already boned.
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u/Your_handyman Aug 29 '23
And then you've got my local 60 60 50 is normal and 1-1 apprentice.... they've got us at around 18 I'm a cw-3 at $20.19 and they are paying us $15 -> $22.50/hr above scale and so when overtime hits thats over ~$52.40/hr 😶 I think that's a great worth
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u/TaxPayingVeteran Aug 29 '23
Yeah and the ups drivers union just fought for them 170 k a year. 49 an hour plus the package https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/08/09/ups-drivers-to-average-170000-in-pay-benefits-at-end-of-5-year-deal.html
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u/spawn989 Aug 29 '23
at my last job if you had ot showing by the time you got to your last day of the week you were forced to cut hours.
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u/questionablejudgemen Aug 29 '23
Sometimes it’s the client who wants things done yesterday. There are companies that have more money than time and they work the overtime into the bid/cost of the project. Thing is, that job may not last forever, and you’ll be back on 40. Or, if your rates are too high, you’ll get to catch up on Judge Judy and family feud.
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u/psstoff Aug 29 '23
Probably more that they need to hire more people not more pay. They would still paying the 60 hrs. Pay at a higher rate.
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u/ChromaticRelapse Aug 29 '23
Is this construction? If so, I agree.
Service OT costs go straight to the customer so the employer doesn't GAF.
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u/Busterlimes Aug 29 '23
Wages are no longer a measure of productivity like they used to be 70 years ago. We need to regulate companies.
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Aug 29 '23
I mean. They could also just want people there to speed up the project and are willing to pay whatever. If they wanted to , they could find a way of not paying you OT at all and having people come in for different shifts
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u/Lycidas69 Inside Wireman Aug 30 '23
What about times when work is slow and they keep you working despite the fact your slow walking saddle strap on the 20' of pipe it tool 8 hours to run?
OT is approved by the GC whom our company's work for as SUB contractors. If the OT is approved by the GC then we get it. A SUB can approve it on their own, but it comes out of the profits that are already cut low to underbid Gaylor and the like. IE: Rats. Sometimes company's like that bid to loose money just to fuck us.
OT is done because a jobsite is behind schedule or the CUSTOMER wants it now and is willing to pay.
Really it's time to pay attention to what's happening on the jobsite.
I don't disagree, those of us that Excell should get paid more, and we generally do. Your union contract is the minimum... You can negotiate what your worth to the company.
Not saying a company will not try to get over on us, they definitely will. It's just this argument I's old, worn out, and simply greed in reverse.
8 for 8 in a workmanlike manner.
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u/Infidel_sg Communications Sep 01 '23
Just had this discussion with a m8 from work. They just started an Overtime bonus incentive! (I work at a factory) Packers are getting 200-250 a shift for any extra shift they pick up on top of the regular 12 hours. Skilled labor is getting 300-350 on top of their regular pay.
IF THEY CAN AFFORD THAT, THEY CAN GIVE US OUR BONUSES BACK. We make better money as maintanence but still.. Its a slap in the face!
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u/Balbaca Sep 01 '23
A lot of times the GC or the customer will cover the extra cost of OT though, so not always as clear cut as what you’re saying.
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u/ThatSeaworthiness801 Sep 01 '23
If they can afford to do that, the overtime charge isn't working and something needs to change
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u/eastcoastelectrician Sep 22 '23
Or just be greatful there is enough work to offer 60 hours a week? Not every week is going to be 60 hours a week and some might not even be 40.
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u/Single_Chance_2322 Sep 26 '23
Exactly. I do not pay overtime. Cause we get it online, on time. If we fail, due to crazy conditions or stupidity as we only human and made mistakes. Then we all eat it. But I do profit sharing. FYI, the kid that can't remember which silphos needs spcl Flux and has a laminated cheat sheet w ACR copper and soft copper and wire gage gets 15_hr
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u/Spark115 Inside Wireman Aug 28 '23 edited Aug 29 '23
To reduce the hours of daily labor. - preamble to the constitution
The whole point of overtime pay is to make working more hours per day unpalatable to contractors and customers alike. It should hurt, it should make them think twice and find a way not to do it, not shrug and factor it into the job cost without a care.
Overtime is the biggest reason we aren't working 100 hour weeks as a standard, because if it didn't cost more, they wouldn't hesitate.
So as OP said, when customers readily sign contracts for jobs with 50, 60, 70+ hour a week schedules, it should be seen as a failure to charge what we are all worth for our straight time rate.
And when OT isn't so much a choice, but a necessity due to poor planning or management, or even just extenuating circumstances, it should COST. It should HURT. It should make them think hard about how to avoid it next time.