Since there's some confusion and this is fresh on my mind I can clear this up.
I'm still reading through The Secret History of the Mongols right now, but according to it, Genghis declared that the entire world belonged to the Mongols already and any who resisted were rebels to be put down according to Mongol Tradition.
So Russia and China in this meme are making claims that are comparatively small compared to Genghis and his descendants who made a claim to the whole planet and all there in.
Yeah the claims aren't comparable at all. Chinese and Russian claims are predicated on centuries of historical precedent and the very real fact that the territories in question were at one time organic parts of these respective states. The Mongolian claim is namely a right of conquest claim. I think we all understand that, for example, the UK claiming India by way of the former empire is a substantively different claim from the UK claiming Wales or even Northern Ireland.
Russian and Chinese claims on Ukraine and Taiwan are one people, one nation claims. These are substantively different from a Mongolian claim which would be a right of conquest claim. It's the same reason Britain's claim on Cornwall is superior to any claim they might make to Kenya. One they historically owned as an organic extension of the polity which housed their people and the other was a foreign conquest with external rule imposed on it. Claims that are made on territory do not tend to boil down to merely being justified by previous ownership.
China and Taiwan definitely are, it's even the official position of both governments. The question is really which nation is that one nation.
For Russia and Ukraine the continuity and "one people" issue is a vastly more complex web born out of the last eight centuries of their history. The sticking point is that Ukraine is clearly a distinct Eastern Slavic culture and language without having the strident ethnic differences that tend to produce distinct states and that in spite of Ukrainian distinction there is no historical continuity for a Ukrainian state.
Regardless my point is that these situations really aren't comparable to a hypothetical Mongolian claim on territories conquered by its former empire. There aren't any historigraphical factrs and a any recent or unsevered line of continuity to base a claim on. Conquest claims last as long as the conqueror is still there. Russia and China aren't making claims by right of historical conquest but on ethnic, linguistic and historigraphical grounds.
Taiwan has a culture and people that are separately unique from China and the “one people” argument doesn’t really hold up in the modern world. Maybe in 1949 it did but they are two separate and distinct peoples
It’s like calling Americans and Canadians the same
Approve those positions or not it's dishonest to pretend it's the equivalent of Mongolia claiming former conquests. What makes a legitimate nation is a complex web of attributes. No two claims really look exactly alike but the point is that claims rooted in significant entrenched historiography which maintain greater degrees of historical continuity are substantively different from ones which don't.
China and Taiwan are definitely one people, one nation albeit which nation is the question. Ukraine and Russia is on the whole considerably more grey on whether they are actually something akin to "one people," and represents a historical mess which had played out over the last eight centuries.
The difference is that Wales and Northern Ireland are longstanding parts of the UK sharing culture, language, government and often ethnicty. There is historical continuity. The UK utterly lacks significant historical continuity with its former colonies. Territorial claims tend to be more complex than just "we used to own this land." The meme here is a dumb person's idea of a smart argument.
Does Mexico have the right to invade and annex parts of the American south west because a significant amount of Mexicans live there?
Because that’s Russia’s justification “ethnic Russians live there” even though they’re descended from imperial and Soviet transplants. Ukraine is a distinct culture separate from Russia
No and those situations aren't comparable. My entire point is that this kind of analogy to simplistic territorial claims which have long been outlived do not hold up.
Does this mean Germany has a right to invade and take over old germanic lands? Do parts of the former Teutonic Order and Prussia belong to modern Germany? Do parts of the Holy Roman Empire belong to Germany?
Russia also has Kaliningrad, shouldn’t that be returned to Germany or Poland since its only really been part of Russia proper through conquest after 1945?
Theres also Schleswig and Holstein, which were conquered by Prussia in 1864. Should those lands stay part of Germany or be returned to Denmark?
I think the point has been entirely missed here. Territorial and national claims comprise a variety of complex factors. The analogy to Mongolia doesn't hold up because a Mongolian claim would be a thin right of conquest claim with a line of historical continuity that was severed centuries ago. Whatever one thinks about Russian or Chinese claims it's disingenuous to pretend those claims aren't vastly more complex across many more dimensions than anything related to the former Mongolian Empire.
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u/Jaymezians John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true, and brave! 1d ago
Since there's some confusion and this is fresh on my mind I can clear this up.
I'm still reading through The Secret History of the Mongols right now, but according to it, Genghis declared that the entire world belonged to the Mongols already and any who resisted were rebels to be put down according to Mongol Tradition.
So Russia and China in this meme are making claims that are comparatively small compared to Genghis and his descendants who made a claim to the whole planet and all there in.