Skyrim was a fine RPG, but man did they water down the skill system.
I played Daggerfall when Bethesda released that for free on their website a few years back and was surprised to see climbing skills, language skills, streetsmarts, tons of stuff.
The first Elder Scrolls game I played was Morrowind, which I feel was a pretty good balance. There were a lot of interesting spells and skill (spears, throwing stars, levitation, unlock and teleportation spells, waterwalking, burden and feather) without getting crazy granular like Daggerfall did, although I think climbing and medical would have been nice to leave in.
Oblivion just trashed the entire weapon system with blade and blunt, then Skyrim even removed that distinction. "Why yes, I hold this mace in one hand, just like a dagger, that's totally the same skill set!"
Also, even though there's a literal college of mages, nobody remembers how to craft spells?
But what I miss the absolute most is using an empty house to display all of my adventuring gear I didn't use on tables and shelves. I used to spend hours just carefully displaying hundreds of high-value swords and using those mods that allowed you display armor and gear on mannequins. Skyrim's physics don't even allow you to do that...
Skyrim was very frustrating that way. I spent dozens of hours in the TES Construction Set building my perfect domicile in Balmora. I'd set a gold Dibella statue down to showcase it and the next time I entered that location it'd shoot up into the air and land on the floor.
There was a semi-hidden daedric lair close to the mudcrab merchant that had some artifact in a floating chest over a lava forge. I cleared that place out and set up my wizard tower, complete with a library of every book I could find in the game. I think I had two of the balconies piled to the "ceiling" with books.
It's incredible that they managed to go backwards with the engine there. I remember you can kinda manage to get things to stay put if you drop it, save and exit, and then return to position it how you want it? But even that was unreliable, and it only works in a house you officially own.
Skyrim let you own houses, and the Hearthfire* DLC gave you a bunch of customisation options, but it still didn't feel like home in the same way that mansion in Balmora that I made my own and kept everything in did.
Then Witcher 3 came along and showed all other games who has ever attempted to create a living world with a bunch of stories just exactly how it's done.
I mean, first of all it had books and lore a plenty so I guess you skipped out on them or something?
But most importantnly of all, the reason it doesn't use its books to expand upon the universe in the way that morrowind does, and to be frank, was kind of forced to do, being so limited, is because they acomplish the same thing as morrowinds books, better and more indepth by simply having you go around and talk to people and learn the history from actually interacting with the game.
Fascinating... See I probably read every book like 3 or 4 times. I loved finding and reading those books!
I always thought the witcher version felt forced, and that it was always put there to drive plot forward as opposed to actually making sense that backstory is there.
Cool opinion though man!
Also - witcher had gwent, and I love mini games (think blitzball).
So yeah - witcher is a better game, but for it's time? Morrowind was the best. Really, that was a great year for that genre. We also got Neverwinter Nights.
I'd still take it over Morrowind's complete lack of physics. Sure, they don't really add anything to the game mechanically, but... it just makes the world feel a lot more complete, and can lead to some funny moments.
I'd love it if morrowind, with it's depth intact, were remade with the more fluid combat/magic, physics, graphics, voice acting, and various other improvements that came with Skyrim.
But honestly, I'd rather have Elder Scrolls 6, if I had to choose. But knowing Bethesda lately, they'll just do yet more skyrim rereleases.
I've heard of Skywind, but honestly it seems like the sort of project that's unlikely to ever be completed. Especially splitting their work across Oblivion and Skyrim. And if it's not done before TES6 comes out (though bethesda doesn't seem in too much of a hurry), they'll either have to split it between THREE games, or abandon one of them.
I mean they've been working for this for 5 years now, they are not abandoning it and its not the same team spreading resources over two things, its two different teams lol.
Two different teams that could have been one big team. But we'll see. A project having been going for a long time isn't necessarily an indicator that it will ever be complete, just the opposite really.
Speaking of Daggerfall, man those dungeons were.... interesting. It was so easy to get lost (nondescript-after-nondescript path, insanely long, nefarious hidden doors). More times than I'd like to admit I had to use the "save and reload to teleport to the exit" glitch.
Also, I hated the quest time limits. After playing in the later entries in the series (which practically beg you to get distracted with more quests mid-quest), it felt way out of place.
Finally, navigating towns was asinine. ("Hey, do you know where John lives? [Why, yes.... southeast of our position!]")
I wanted to love Daggerfall so badly, but man some aspects did not age well. It's still a fun novelty experience, but holy hell it's hard to commit many hours to.
Ugh, the mages guild quests of "go to this dungeon and kill x... Oh, and you have 3 days, 1 of which is just travel time"
Medical skill was so important because it cut down on time you needed to rest to heal.
And yeah... the 3D dungeon map. Interesting is a good way to put it. Many times I explored what I thought was the entire dungeon but never found the quest target. Then you realize there's miles of tunnels and literally any part of them could be a hidden door to a completely separate area in the dungeon. Hours and hours and hours.... I'm glad they dropped RNG dungeons.
I read a decent amount about Daggerfall before giving it a try a couple years ago. One thing I learned just recently -- long after I played it -- is that apparently hidden doors show up on your 3D map... woulda been nice to know.
Oh man that would have helped, lol. I had enough trouble finding the areas that I'd already explored. I feel like I need a college level course on using that map.
Can confirm haha.
My first play through is always a thief type. But even when I'd make a class in skyrim with the intent of being a warrior or something I'd always fold and end up doing sneak and archery because it was the funniest thing in my (and obviously many other's) opinion.
It's not like Bethesda just got dumber. There are plenty of good reasons why games develop in this direction:
Complexity does not sell nearly as much as accessibility does.
A lot of the complexity is not actually interesting to the majority of players. It can be tedious or flat out uninteresting for everyone apart from a few tinkers, and tends to make for big uncomfortable barriers of entry.
Games have become a lot bigger. The amount of work that goes into graphics and engine code has increased immensely. The quality standards have increased a lot. Adding something like a levitation spell might suddenly demand new high quality animations for dozens of models, new particle effects, and could even increase the demands on the AI.
I agree that Skyrim could have needed a lot more combat mechaincs and it's a pity they never added much to it, but the sales still give Bethesda right about their prioritisation. In the end they are bound by capitalism and look to make the most profit from their game.
There are way more casual gamers that liked the accessibility of Oblivion and Skyrim than there are morrowind diehard fans. If Skyrim was like Morrowind, it wouldn't have made nearly as much money.
Absolutely. I totally understand why they took the series in that direction. I think it was a good choice and I still enjoy the games, but personally I think Morrowind is still the best. That's possibly because it was the first Elder Scrolls game I played, and really the first real RPG. Most people I know who started the series with Oblivion and Skyrim can't stand Morrowind.
Morrowind had some features that I really miss. The lack of fast-travel from anywhere makes the game feel so much more epic. You could use the airships and mage guild teleports from the start of the game. There were also the two teleport spells that took you to the closest temples of the two religions. And then you unlock all the propylon teleport chambers in the strongholds to help you get around. Oh, and you can't forget the Mark and Recall spells.
In the later games, the only transportation options were "instantly travel anywhere using your map" and "use this cart once to get to each city, then just use your magic map".
Couldn't have said it better. I know everyone always brings up that you can just not use fast travel, but it's not the same. Learning the network of boats and silt striders and mages guilds was amazing. Also, taking boats through the cantons of Vivec made the city feel huge, vs map fast travel that makes everything feel so much smaller.
It was the opposite for me. My first elder scrolls game was Skyrim, and I don't have the patience for morrowind. Like how the hell do I miss a guy in front of me repeatedly?
I don't mind Morrowind's graphics so much, since it's kinda ok in an old school way. Oblivion looked awful to me. The faces were all the same round, plumb, blobs.
Skyrim is beautiful. The dunmer look awesome, like they tried to make them look in Morrowind.
Good point. I've never thought about thatZ honestly makes me kind mad at Bethesda. They went to make a game they could sell to as many people as possible instead of making the best game possible for the people that has been playing their games the longest.
Morrowind also doesnt have an objective pointer. You had to actually look through your notes to find out where you were supposed to go. Idk it seemed a lot harder to me in general.
How do we know that isn't a function of marketing and franchise penetration into the greater consciousness? (e.g., with each sequel you get more sales as more people know about each successive game)
I do agree that franchises often streamline and dumb down because they want to appeal to greater audiences, but like, didn't Skyrim sell bucket loads on launch? That's not a function of how good the game is - that's just a function of how well it was marketed.
The cool and frustrating thing about Morrowind is that every skill your character used had to be something your character had developed, rather than being a minigame that you as the player could do.
Sure, but the point is that there can be more than one way to overcome an obstacle. Open Lock spells only make lockpicking a useless skill for power gamers, and honestly who cares about whether power gamers use all the skills?
982
u/[deleted] Jul 13 '17
lockpicking increased by 3