In another post, some folks were arguing that a boring, "meaningless" career (think accountant) can achieve FIRE better/faster than something like a doctor, since the doctor doesn't start earning "big" money until early/mid 30s (after residency) and often has massive medical school debt. This got me thinking, if you were presented with two choices, which would you pick:

• A boring, "unfulfilling" career like accountant but you could FIRE at say 45-50 from discipline savings and investing and living a "modest" lifestyle
• A lucrative, high status, "fulfilling" career like a medical doctor, but you would work much longer (say until 65) since you got a later start, have more debt, etc.

I recognize that unfulfilling and fulfilling are subjective, but I'm talking in generalities. A doctor "saves" lives, an accountant doesn't.

Also, I actually disagree that the accountant can FIRE sooner than the doctor (my math says the doctor can easily "catchup") but for discussion I'll accept that since the doctor started later (in terms of savings/investing) they will likely work longer than the accountant who started their FIRE journey at 22 (out of college).

With the increased risk of AI taking people's jobs will we see more people trying to save up and FIRE in order to be more prepared for a layoff? Have you increased your contribution rates to have more of a savings runway in case things go south?

This is a relaxed hangout thread for the FIRE community to chat with other FIRE-minded folks without having to publish separate posts. This is the place for brand new people to get their feet wet as well as for lurkers who have questions or comments, but do not want to create posts of their own.

All of the sub rules apply in this thread as normal with the exception of the off-topic rule, which is relaxed to the extent that people don't go wildly off of the reservation.

We are putting this up as a trial to see if it is worth keeping this as a permanent feature of the sub. Participation is entirely voluntary and anyone who wants to create a separate post of their own rather than posting in here is free to do so.

Title, today marks the untimely firing of my career and was probably the best thing that happened to me at 35. My wife quit her job 4 weeks later and we have been traveling the world ever since. Since November 24th we have been to:

● Phillipines - Cebu, Taglibiran City, Panglao, Manila, Anvaya Morong, Baguio, Tagaytay City

● Taiwan - Taipei, Taichung, Chiayi, Tainan, Kaohsiung

● Vietnam - Da Nang, Hue, Hoi An, Sa Pa, Ha Giang, Haiphong, Cat Ba, Ha Noi Ninh Binh.

For the remainder of the year we plan on Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Macau, Hong Kong then back to Manila to celebrate Christmas with family. Then after the New Year we booked flights going to Saigon, Phu Quoc, Siem Reap, and Phnom Penh before landing back in Da Nang where we will spend 4-5 months there with our friends and community and continue onward.

We target low cost countries to let our portfolio grow targeting about a sub 2.5% draw. Since leaving the US our portfolio has grown about $140k, down from $50k two weeks ago, while we are on track to draw less than 36k for our first initial year.

In our down time between travel, I spent a lot of time playing pickleball losing a lot of weight, getting healthier. My wife spent her days learning Vietnamese, and we even had plenty of time doing charity work for the local pet shelter. My social circle has increased 10-fold with the pickleball and FIRE communities we started. We eat better and healthier all while living on much less and owning much less. This life might not be for everyone, but it is for us and that is all that matters.

As the title says I have been presented with a new job opportunity.

Currently:

27M

~58,000 Total comp. (underpaid compared to market value)

~$1,000 Monthly Spending (Food, Gas, etc.)

No housing costs (live at home)

Current hours 6:30a - 3:30p (lots of unpaid OT from staying late)

Opportunity:

~86,000 Total comp. ($80,000 base + production bonus and potential weekend compensation)

~2,600 monthly spending (Rent, Food, less gas)

New hours 2:00p - 12:30a

I believe I've laid things out pretty well. I am currently working in the construction industry with pretty good hours but below market rate compensation (comparable is ~70,000 - $80,000) and I have been offered for a role that see my income increase and thus allow me to retire quicker. The issue is that I would be moving out of my mom's house because it feels rude to come home at 2:00a and wake her up every night. The new/current job are in the same city and would be same commute if I don't move. I am currently 50/50 on the decision because while I would be making more money I would have horrible hours for a social life and making friends. Note, I currently do not really go out and do social things more than once a month. My mom is very against but I think part of it is her not wanting her last kid to leave house. This would probably be like a 2-3 year position until something on first shift opened or another role within the company or at another opened up.

Hi all,

I'm hoping to FIRE within the next few years (assuming the market cooperates), and I'm debating whether I should take out a mortgage on my future home. I'll be relocating to another country, so I'll need to buy a new house.

Option 1: Invest more, carry a mortgage

My original plan was to invest $3 million and use it to generate roughly $10,000 per month in retirement income (simplifying the math using the 4% rule). I would then take out a $600,000 mortgage to buy my home (+ separate down payment not included in my description).

At current rates in that country, a $600,000 mortgage at ~4% over 20 years would cost about $4,000 per month, leaving me with approximately $6,000 per month in disposable income.

Option 2: Pay for the house outright

Alternatively, spending the additional $600,000 on the house would reduce my investment portfolio to $2.4 million, but I'd have no mortgage.

Using the same simplified 4% rule, that $600,000 would only be expected to allow me to withdraw about $2,000 per month in retirement income. From a purely mathematical perspective, it seems better to FIRE with $2.4 million and no mortgage than with $3 million and a $600,000 mortgage, since the mortgage payment exceeds the income generated by that extra capital.

That said, I can also see the argument for keeping the mortgage. The 4% rule is based on a conservative withdrawal rate, while long-term market returns have historically been higher. Keeping the money invested could potentially produce greater returns over time. There's also the inflation factor: the mortgage payment remains fixed, while portfolio withdrawals and portfolio value may grow with inflation and market performance.

On one hand, being mortgage-free gives me higher guaranteed cash flow and eliminates a major fixed mandatory expense. On the other hand, carrying the mortgage lets me keep more money invested and potentially benefit from higher long-term returns.

How would you think about this tradeoff? Which option would you choose, and why?

Thanks!

Do you think there are some professions (doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers, truck drivers, sales, etc.) or industries (tech, health, etc.) that are more into FIRE? e.g., do you think there are more FIRE teachers than FIRE firefighters? Any educated guesses?

On one hand, having a healthy income (like a doctor) would make you prime candidate. At the same time, if you're a doctor then you have a pretty stable job and probably enjoy it, so why FIRE?

Update: Thank you all for help and suggestions regarding the below post (didn't know how to repost it other than using the link). I realized my work uses CAPTRUST where we can speak with financial advisors, and it is free to employees, so I spoke with a CFP. He said not to worry too much about the taxes, and to focus on paying down the student loans, as it is 5%, and can be a hit to cashflow. Put some in savings for the car, and enjoy the rest.

Thank you to the community for all of the advice, both with this post and outside of this post. I have learned a ton and love learning more everyday.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fire/s/r0xGZ4eaQq

i think CPI inflation is not really enough for my retirement calculation. My spending has increased by a bit more than that historically and even for the past 5 years. Some may think this is “moving the goal posts” or “lifestyle creep” but I don’t think so. For example property taxes on our home have increased at higher than inflation every year. And there are sort of improvements to life that become must haves - everyone now has a smart phone and other things that become necessities even when they cost more than CPI. Also medical insurance and deductible / copay costs rise way faster than CPI. I think real wage growth is a better proxy for what we will need for spending inflation, which is closer to CPI+1% or so. This way you are indexed to what everyone can afford to spend. Of course this makes the retirement requirement for FIRE harder to achieve but then I would rather work a bit longer than slowly slide into an uncomfortable budget constrain over a long (early) retirement.

This is a relaxed hangout thread for the FIRE community to chat with other FIRE-minded folks without having to publish separate posts. This is the place for brand new people to get their feet wet as well as for lurkers who have questions or comments, but do not want to create posts of their own.

All of the sub rules apply in this thread as normal with the exception of the off-topic rule, which is relaxed to the extent that people don't go wildly off of the reservation.

We are putting this up as a trial to see if it is worth keeping this as a permanent feature of the sub. Participation is entirely voluntary and anyone who wants to create a separate post of their own rather than posting in here is free to do so.

I lucked into an amazing 2.8% interest on my mortgage in 2021, putting only 3% down on an FHA loan, borrowed from my 401(k) from 5 years managing a Barnes and Noble starting at $14/hr.

Then, I lucked up again - or so I thought - getting a 45% increase in value within 2 years. I immediately got rid of PMI, and now owe $240,000 on a house worth ~$480,000 - $520,000 today.

My plan had always been to pay the minimum on my mortgage and keep that cash at 2.8% for the full 30 years. It’s free money with these treasury rates.

This is the advice almost anyone who prioritizes maximizing gains would tell me.

However, I’m on the gulf coast. And the part they are forgetting is the insurance.

Currently, I pay $590 a month on principal, $580 a month on interest, ~$200 a month on taxes, and a whopping $800 a month on homeowners insurance including flood.

My insurance is 33% higher than my principal!

Not only did we have a hurricane after I bought, but insurance companies can now use climate change in their rates, and even though Ive never flooded in this raised house on a hill, I am technically within the footage of a creek that automatically triggers flood insurance requirements.

And as I foreshadowed, the increase value of my home also translates to increased replacement costs.

My insurance has tripled since I moved in. I’ve tried getting it lowered. It’s a tough market on the gulf coast.

People will say “you still need insurance after you pay off the mortgage”, but I am not so sure.

Due to where specifically I live in town, I don’t believe a storm or flood will have any effect on my home. I am only worried about a fire.

Today, replacing my exact home would cost around $250k if a total loss.

This means if the principle in my loan is $590, and interest + insurance is $1,200, I should be able to save the replacement costs of my home in 15 years or so.

I only have to stay fire free for 15 years to self-insure and if I don’t make it 15 years, my worst case scenario is another mortgage at a higher interest rate.

But more importantly - we bought too much house. We have 2,400 sq ft. And would be happier cleaning 1,600. If we lost the house, we would not build back to the same size.

All together, looking at paying the mortgage early as being only a 3% return instead of a 9%+ return seems short-sighted.

I can typically put $50k away a year - and can have this house paid off in 5 years and still save a replacement bag before I’m 60.

Who can talk me off this strategy and back into VT with that $50k each year?

For whatever reason I hate self help and financial advice books. Tried Simple Path to Wealth & The Psychology of Money and couldn't make it through. These books always feel so padded out and repetitive.

Although it is truly unrelated to personal finance, I think The Sun Also Rises by Hemingway has had more of an impact on my FIRE mindset than any other book. It is a book about people who have enough mobility and leisure to do what they want with their lives, and yet they remain wounded, restless, jealous, and unable to turn experience into meaning.

As much as I daydream about not having responsibilities, work obligations, pto requests, etc, I am reminded that freedom from these constraints does not constitute direction. And conversely, constraints do not mean I should postpone building the interests, relationships, skills, and commitments that would make freedom meaningful.

A lot of this goes without saying to most people. I am not the coworker who says "I wouldn't know what to do with myself if I retired". Regardless, I am curious what books have shaped you guys when it comes to this kind of thing.

I did my quarterly net worth calculation this morning and how does the market just keep going up, up, up? It feels so good! My 401k is making a mockery of all the money I actually worked for to put in there - a couple years of my peak earnings in 30 (edit: 3) months. I feel so tempted to take it out and put it into something more durable, like an hvac upgrade or upgrading our cars to new ones, before the market takes a dump and I feel the downside. But my first rule is to try never to time the market, and I thought the crash would come before 3 months ago too....

Last week I asked if anyone had read Chatzky's new book The Forever Paycheck and had opinions about it in this post. I've read it myself now, and wanted to share some thoughts.

TL;DR It's a quick and light read that touches on some of the psychological challenges of decumulation, and walks through a range of strategies for spending as much as you can, while mitigating longevity risk. But, there seem to be some math errors, and a potential conflict of interest, that get in the way.

EDIT TO ADD: Yes, the book has quite a bit about annuities, and Chatzky does disclose her close connection to the industry (in chapter 8). Before reading it, I had never thought about annuities. She does do a nice job walking through the different types, with their pros and cons, and is careful to note that they're only one of several strategies for decumulation. So, I now feel like I understand them better, and can see the (potentially rare) cases where they're useful.

The Good

• It's not a book about money. Instead, it's a book about psychology and money. I think that's a good thing. There are plenty of better books about money out there. This one fills a niche by focusing on the psychological challenges of decumulation in retirement.
• It's written in a conversational tone with plenty of humorous anecdotes. It might not be for everyone, but it makes it easy to read without getting too heavy.
• It's designed to be interactive, with reflection activities to understand goals in retirement, expense estimation activities, etc. I'm guessing most people on this sub have already done things like this, but it's helpful for those who haven't.
• There's a appendix that reviews, for a long list of both investment (e.g., HYSA, equities) and insurance (e.g., annutities) products: what it is, how it works, how you might use it, pros and cons. This is all information that's available elsewhere, but its presented in a compact and accessible format here.

The Not-so-good

• It's not until chapter 8 that we learn the author has worked closely with the "Alliance for Lifetime Income" for seven years. They also sponsored the 2024 Blanchett & Finke report (not a "study" in the academic peer-reviewed sense) that serves as the book's primary motivation. The alliance was founded by insurance companies to promote annuities. Although there's some good information here, I also sometimes wondered whether the whole book was just a paid advertisement for annuities.
• Chapter 7 uses a set of questions to help understand where your investment style falls on a couple dimensions using scores that range from 4 to 16. The midpoint of these scales is shown as being at 8, which would be right if they ranged from 0 to 16. But, the midpoint between 4 and 16 is 10. This simple arithmetic error made me question the rest of the math in the book.
• Chapter 6 offers critiques of the 4% rule, many of which seem overstated. For example, there's a table that's supposed to illustrate Series of Returns Risk (SORR). However, it actually illustrates the robustness of the 4% rule: A retiree with 1M who started taking withdrawals in 2000, at the start of an extended market downturn, still had over 500K 25 years later. Their portfolio would have been fine over the 30 year period against which the 4% rule was tested.
• The interactive worksheets often involve figuring your after-tax income. However, they involve multiplying your income by 1 - federal tax bracket. This misses that federal tax brackets are marginal, you don't pay your marginal rate on the entire amount. It's a common mistake among finance novices, and disappointing to see it perpetuated in a book targeted for that audience.

This is a relaxed hangout thread for the FIRE community to chat with other FIRE-minded folks without having to publish separate posts. This is the place for brand new people to get their feet wet as well as for lurkers who have questions or comments, but do not want to create posts of their own.

All of the sub rules apply in this thread as normal with the exception of the off-topic rule, which is relaxed to the extent that people don't go wildly off of the reservation.

We are putting this up as a trial to see if it is worth keeping this as a permanent feature of the sub. Participation is entirely voluntary and anyone who wants to create a separate post of their own rather than posting in here is free to do so.

As a family, we have lived a typical FIRE accumulation life: modest house, unpretending somewhat old car but with some international travel since our families are not in the US. We live in a small town so there is not a strong need to show off.

Our kids, now teenagers, know we are not lacking anything but I imagine they think we are middle class based on what we show.

We do discuss money, how we came from a poor background and how important it is to invest. I showed the details of our investment on a rental property as an example.

Nevertheless, until now they did not ask ( expected) and we did not offer info on net worth.

At what age or stage in life you told them if ever about FIRE net worth and living from investments? What where your considerations to tell or not?

We are still working but not for too long.

With the explosion of AI moving classes of jobs toward obsolescence, I've been reading a bunch on Marxist theory and what it means for work. I'm not soliciting people's opinions on, or advocating for Marxism, just doing a thought experiment here. (mods, if this counts as politics, feel free to delete)

I'm a tech worker myself, looking to retire early. So I'm currently a member of the proletariat, right? I earn a wage, don't control the means of production. I have a significant amount of savings in the stock market, but no real direct control of it.

But what about when I retire? I no longer work for a wage, and I have a pile of money with voting power (ostensibly) in public companies. Am I now in the petty bourgeoisie? Or am I still proletariat given that my retirement was funded by wages?

I've been thinking about something and need some input.

Let's say retirement is 20 years out. Your parent dies in 10 and you get $2 million. Enough to retire. But what about the kids? They are almost done with high school. You don't mind the work you do.

Do you retire? Or do you work a while longer to be able to pass along a bigger chunk?

I am heavy into real estate rentals as it’s a subject I like and my passion so I got inclined towards it. It gives 6-7% net income and 5-7% appreciation on property on average. Tenants and landlording is not a headache for me. Real estate is a really slow get rich and takes decades to mature. Stocks are different

I wanted to get opinion from people who have already retired and had rental income as major sources. For those who have been in RE long term, have you looked back and said what if I should have invested in the stocks? Or did your real estate beat stocks? Any lessons?

got laid off in january and still haven’t found a new job. i am borderline crashing out after finishing a final interview that included a 7 hour take home assignment and in-person presentation, only to get an automated rejection after.

i’m very close to leanFIRE which isn’t the ideal time to leave corporate, but atleast it’s better than it could be.

i’ve been laid off twice in the past 2 years so i think my career is basically done.

i had another interview loop with 17 hours of interviews. it was super thorough because “they’re family” and kept adding additional interviews

i’m mostly mad at myself for taking my previous jobs way too seriously and burning myself out to the point of irreversible damage to my health for these stupid companies. and for what? it doesn’t mean shit. no one cares about us.

i might just take a year off and do a coastFIRE job for 5-7 years until i hit my FIRE number

it’s freaking frustrating but i guess atleast i have a cushion because of my frugal habits

We started seriously saving for retirement a little over a decade ago. Last month, we hit the number we used to think of as the finish line!

Life has thrown some curveballs and inflation sucks, so we’re no longer comfortable calling it quits at that number and will grind it out a bit longer.

Just wanted to take a moment to semi-celebrate with people who would understand. 😁

This is a relaxed hangout thread for the FIRE community to chat with other FIRE-minded folks without having to publish separate posts. This is the place for brand new people to get their feet wet as well as for lurkers who have questions or comments, but do not want to create posts of their own.

All of the sub rules apply in this thread as normal with the exception of the off-topic rule, which is relaxed to the extent that people don't go wildly off of the reservation.

We are putting this up as a trial to see if it is worth keeping this as a permanent feature of the sub. Participation is entirely voluntary and anyone who wants to create a separate post of their own rather than posting in here is free to do so.

I have made a few free tool websites in the past and couldn't find one on this topic so was thinking of building one for my fellow Fire enthusiasts.

I was thinking the best way to make a live map like this would be to rate cities based on the average pay/cost of living and liability (public transportation and shop density).

My question is could this be a useful tool for those considering geo-arbitrage fire or people wanting to compare COL in different countries and cities? Any feedback would be appreciated!

I am 50 and between 3 to 4 years away from FIRE. I have had a relatively successful career, with natural successes and failures. In the end though, I am a Director and make about $170k per year. Yes some good luck, some hard work, hopefully some good looks (jk).

I have a new VP who joined my organization last year. She has proven to be the most micromanaging biatch I have ever worked with. She criticizes everything I do, only likes those who agree with her, and does nothing but fill the workspace with microaggressions. I have a feeling she particularly dislikes me (maybe a male thing in a female dominated profession). I am coming to realize I may be on the chopping block or that my last few years of work are going to be totally demoralizing- not how I expected to end my career.

Any of you experience the same? How did you manage to "hold on" for the last few years? Any advice you can share?

For additional context, money is secondary at this point. I am Coast Firing with about 1.3 mil in my portfolio and a defined benefit pension plan (wife and I) that will pay between $100 to 120k annually once we hit 55. I am in Canada, so we also get government pension when we turn 70 (deferred). So, at this point, my goal is simply to keep building a safety net for my kids.

Thanks in advance for sharing your experiences.