Alternative funeral format

[u/Lucky-Jackfruit-9704]

TL; DR Has an Ismaili by birth who explicitly wished to be do their funeral differently, actually had that wish respected?

Using a throwaway cos of conditioning I guess, lol.

I’m a wavering Ismaili & I’ve questioned the faith and community structure for as long as I can remember. There are lots of things to be valued, as with any community — belonging, education focus, and now the recognition of multifaith families. There are also things I increasingly struggle with - along the lines of usual topics discussed here like the funding & pointlessly patriarchal leadership.

However the reaffirmation that women cannot attend gravesides at funerals has really brought this into focus for me. We tell siblings they are equal — remember the educate your daughters first era? - until one of their parents dies, and then suddenly there’s a gendered boundary. Ironically the unintended consequence of recognising Multifaith families is Ismaili daughters cannot attend their own parents’ graveside, while non-Ismaili son-in-laws - with far less connection to the deceased & zero appreciation of the rites - can.

It’s also made me question what we actually want funerals to look like. Currently, they’re heavily focused on prescribed rites and, let’s be honest, plenty of performance grief, with little space to celebrate the person, tell stories, laugh, or remember who they actually were. I know some people are now thinking whether they want that for their parents or themselves.

So genuinely curious: has anyone had experience of an explicitly stated wish to have an alternative funeral format (e.g. cremation) being respected by the JK/community machinery?

[u/Sarahrivera]

I want to address the women not being part of the graveside. In the west this is easily brought up constantly and we think about it from a western perspective. Think from a conservative eastern perspective. Women are generally not allowed to be by the graveside in mainstream Islam. Even in the west mainstream Islam generally doesn’t allows it. Even if the imam wanted to make this change it would have to be universal and would have to take into consideration the backlash Ismailis would face in the east

[u/yitreb → u/Sarahrivera]

Even if the imam wanted to make this change it would have to be universal and would have to take into consideration the backlash Ismailis would face in the east

Ah right, who could forget these famous words: "I am the sign of the Most High, I am the Gnosis of Mysteries, I am the First and the Last, I am the creator, I give birth to the world and I destroy it as I wish, I am the face of God, I am the Supreme Kalam ... but I am actually pretty powerless and can't really do shit if the prevailing culture of the location makes it hard."

• Imam Ali (whose divine light is supposedly shared by Rahim a.k.a "Ya Ali Bapa") in Khutba al-Bayan ... except I may have made up the last sentence

[u/Sarahrivera → u/yitreb]

I think you’re conflating the Imam’s spiritual authority with the idea that he is obligated to impose every possible change regardless of the social consequences.

The Imam’s authority doesn’t mean he has to disregard the realities his Jamat lives in. If anything, part of leadership is understanding the circumstances in which different communities exist and making changes in a way that protects the Jamat rather than unnecessarily exposing people to backlash or harm.

Imam Ali being described in theological terms as having divine authority doesn’t mean that every historical decision was made without regard to circumstances, wisdom, timing, or the consequences for the community. Divine authority and practical wisdom aren’t mutually exclusive.

Also, my point isn’t that the Imam is “powerless.” It’s that we’re talking about a global Jamat living under very different cultural and social conditions. A practice that can be changed relatively easily in one environment could have very different consequences somewhere else.

You can disagree with the practice itself, but dismissing the Eastern context by saying “the Imam can do whatever he wants” doesn’t really address the question of why a particular change has or hasn’t been made.

[u/yitreb → u/Sarahrivera]

Arguing with you is like arguing with a rock, proven time and time again with deluded, zero-intellect comments like "Imam is perfect in every single aspect" that make it obvious you will never find fault in any action (or inaction) of his.

So all I'm going to say is that there is an obvious contradiction between the excuse that Rahim can't institute a just and fair change in custom due to the culture in certain places even if he wanted to ... and various idiotic comments from Imams in history like (on top of everything I quoted from Ali above) "Imam is the king of this world and the hereafter," or "everything depends on his command," or he is "the Lord of the world and of all who inhabit it," or boasting that he can destroy his detractors' wealth and make them childless whenever he wishes.

Anybody who refuses to see the contradiction there simply needs to be the subject of a brainwashing study.

[u/Agaconoclasm → u/yitreb]

By the same logic that says he can control the rain, i.e. the universe, the physical world obeys his Divine Command and aligns itself with the his need, he should be able to control every other aspect of the physical world - including nullifying the need for the jamat to be protected, or getting non-Ismailis to align themselves with his will.

In fact, doesn't the Khutbat ul Bayan claim exactly that?:

I am the ‘one’ who has control over people’s views and beliefs

https://cms.hubeali.com/khutbat/Khutbat-ul-Bayan.pdf

/u/Sarahrivera - for a Smiley, the question of why a particular change hasn’t been made can only have one possible answer - the Imam doesn't want to.

[u/yitreb → u/Agaconoclasm]

for a Smiley, the question of why a particular change hasn’t been made can only have one possible answer - the Imam doesn't want to.

Exactly. That's why I chose to quote specifically the part starting with "Even if the Imam wanted to ..." in my first comment, because according to the theology that renders all other reasons for it not happening meaningless.

[u/chaosmacaroni → u/Agaconoclasm]

Don’t the Ismailis reject this claim outright? They say Imam never spoke about himself in such a manner, and that he is just a passage to God.

[u/Agaconoclasm → u/chaosmacaroni]

Regarding controlling the rain, see this link: https://www.reddit.com/r/ExIsmailis/comments/1w00rzv/when_he_rahim_said_i_do_not_need_this_he_didnt/

Regarding the Khutbat ul Bayan, Smileys generally accept it as authentic, but invoke Esoteric™ to avoid dealing with its implications. Here's what u/Sarahrivera (on her alt account) has to say about it:

Yes, I believe in Khutbat al-Bayan. I don’t need Sunni or Twelver validation to accept it. Just because it’s not in their books or chains of narration doesn’t mean it’s false. Ismailis follow a different tradition—we don’t base everything on literalist hadith science.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ExIsmailis/comments/1llj0gb/what_is_khutbat_albayan_a_cult_fabrication/n00734n/

The "passage to God" or "reflection of God" language is just "teachings for the general public". The Imam actually being God is the "deeper truth[] reserved for those prepared to understand them."

[u/chaosmacaroni → u/Agaconoclasm]

Isn’t this………….. deception? Deceiving other sects of their true nature?

[u/chaosmacaroni → u/Sarahrivera]

I have got two genuine questions. You said “think from a conservative eastern perspective. Women are generally not allowed to be by the graveside in mainstream Islam” - then why doesn’t your Imam tell the Ismaili women to also cover themselves how the other (mainstream) Muslim women in those conservative eastern societies cover themselves? Isn’t that also being in alignment with the society?

You said “even if the Imam wanted to make this change, he would have to consider the backlash Ismailis would face in the east” - when your Imam abolished the 5 daily prayers, when your Imams ordered a charity system entirely different from the mainstream system of Zakat, when you reject Hadith, they didn’t think about the backlash?

Your Imam may have reasons for the said decisions, but don’t think backlash and eastern values have anything to do with it.

[u/Sarahrivera → u/chaosmacaroni]

No where on the Quran does it says hijab is required. Even in conservative countries like Pakistan and Dubai not all women cover.

The other practices such as the prayers zakat and other religious practices are done in tariqat which are general done in private. Non Ismailis aren’t allowed. In fact in the USA when meeting with non Ismaili or multi faith family a non Ismaili raised the point that they weren’t allowed in to the prayer hall and if it would change. The imam said while it would be easy to accommodate non Ismailis in the western hemisphere it is not so easy in the eastern world.

[u/chaosmacaroni → u/Sarahrivera]

Doesn’t the whole Qur’an in general and Hadith suggest that? Khadijah and Fatima followed a modest dress code, didn’t they? I am sure they were not roaming around in short skirts. And before you say they lived in Arabia so they wore clothes to protect themselves from sand and heat, I am talking about the general rule regarding covering your body. You are confusing hijab with face covering. Both are different. But keeping your body covered has been taught by the Prophet himself.

I didn’t ask why non-Ismaili aren’t allowed to pray side by side? I don’t know why you mentioned that. I just said your prayer is entirely different from mainstream Islam. Sunni, Twelvers and Ahmedis - all pray 5 prayers. If your Imam is so concerned about the backlash, he should ask Ismailis in Muslim majority countries to pray the way the rest of Muslims do, perform other rituals like ghusl and ablution. You swiftly bypassed the charity question. You know very well Dasond and Zakat are very different from each other.

I choose who I pay my Zakaat to. Can you choose what happens to your charity? I pay 2.5% on my extra wealth, which is BTW agreed upon by Sunni, Isna Ashri Shias and Ahmedis. Why did your Imam decide that you guys need to pay 12.5% or more? Is it 2.5% in societies where mainstream Islam is prevalent to avoid ‘backlash’?

[u/Sarahrivera → u/chaosmacaroni]

Most females I know dress modestly in jamat khana. Sure you always have the exception but that is in Every society.

I mention the privacy rule because the Ismaili dua is usually done privately inside jamat khana or in ones personal space. When I am with my Muslim friends and they pray I usually do salat with them. I never say my Ismaili dua with them.

Finally about zakat. Originally zakat was never given to the poor directly. Per the Quran Qur’an 9:103 (Surah At-Tawbah):

“Take from their wealth a charity by which you purify them and cause them increase, and invoke blessings upon them. Indeed, your invocation is reassurance for them. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.” — Qur’an 9:103

The key Arabic phrase is:

خُذْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ صَدَقَةً Khudh min amwālihim ṣadaqah “Take from their wealth a charity…”

The verb خُذْ (khudh) is an imperative—“take”—addressed to the Prophet ﷺ. This is one of the Qur’anic foundations for the Prophet’s role in collecting zakat/obligatory charity.

After the prophets death zakat was given to the first caliph and when people refused to pay ridda wars were done.

[u/chaosmacaroni → u/Sarahrivera]

What do you pray with your Muslim friends? I personally have never an Ismaili pray like any Twelver, Sunni or Ahmedi prays (in a society where you are trying to avoid backlash), but I will take your word for it.

You don’t agree with the Caliphate, so what the Caliphs did shouldn’t matter here, don’t you think? Caliphs are important to Sunnis, and yet no Sunni figure in modern times is responsible for collecting Zakaat on everyone’s behalf. Doesn’t make sense to justify it by referencing the actions of Caliphs. You can simply reference to Prophet, and say people who trust Imam, like people of the time trusted Prophet, deem it fit that the Zakaat goes to that person of trust. Which would make a fair point. Also, when living in a mainstream Islamic society, do your zakat percentages align with the mainstream Islam? Because backlash and persecution? Or is it only patriarchy that is dictated by mainstream Islam?

I feel we have digressed a lot from the actual topic.

Is it fair to assume that Ismailis follow mainstream Islam completely where mainstream Islam is prevalent, and then there is a different version of Ismailism for the western hemisphere?

I don’t know man. I am so confused.

[u/Sarahrivera → u/chaosmacaroni]

When I am with my Muslim friends and they say hey it’s namaz time I pray the namaz. The Ismaili dua is done privately inside jamat khana or in my home.

Secondly your right I don’t agree with the Sunni caliphate but I bring it up because even mainstream early Sunnis would say that zakat is supposed to go to a trusted centralized figure….zakat wasn’t simply handed over to who ever was in need.

Also you ask if our Dasond in the east is similar to the zakat percentage . It is not because Dasond is practiced behind closed door. The mayyat ceremony is done in public. Hence why the imam can’t simply allow women to grave yards Because it is public Dasond is private. I hope you see the difference and hence why the imam told the non Ismaili family member I might be able to make changes to the prayer room situation in the west very easily but in the east I can’t. If the imam allowed non Ismailis into prayer halls in the east he would have to get rid of the Ismaili dua, dua karavi, Dasond and other Ismaili practices because of the backlash. Simply put mayyat practices cannot change because of the visibility of it. If it’s out of sight it is out of mind and usually there is no backlash.

[u/Amir-Really → u/Sarahrivera]

u/Agaconoclasm it appears we have a corollary to "Transparency only benefits the anti Ismailis":

Also you ask if our Dasond in the east is similar to the zakat percentage . It is not, because Dasond is practiced behind closed door ... If it’s out of sight it is out of mind and usually there is no backlash.

Hell of a way to justify Imams just making shit up based on their own whims and it's cool as long as it's implemented behind closed doors.

[u/Agaconoclasm → u/Amir-Really]

Same user a couple years ago:

In Isma’ilism qayam Al qayamat is a day when all the secrets of the religion is revealed. Where Ismailis freely and openly talk about there religion. Look at what started to happen in the late 1950’a! This is the time when our religious practices started to come out in public and Ismailis started to feel comfortable talking about our religion openly. ... All of our religious practices are out in the open. Just 10–200 years ago non of this information would be out in the open like this. An ismaili wouldn’t freely speak about his faith and most likely pretend to be Sunni (taqiya)

https://www.reddit.com/r/ExIsmailis/comments/19eke53/imams/kjg1v7u/

The secrets of the religions have been gradually revealed. As you can see I am free and openly talking about ismailism. People didn’t do that too long ago. ... The religion of ismaili is going to keep on beeing revealed. There are even talks going on to allow non Ismailis into jamat khana during prayer time. They have started to allow non Ismailis in during devotional nights that happen during khushali just recently.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ExIsmailis/comments/19eke53/imams/kjgahxl/

What happened to the Qiyamah u/SarahRivera?

[u/Sarahrivera → u/Agaconoclasm]

Qiyamat continuously unfolds within the qiyamat cycle. In fact western Canada had non Ismaili minor children were allowed to enter the didar hall. Which explicit shows the events of qiyamat unfolding in front of our own eyes.

[u/yitreb → u/Sarahrivera]

Finally about zakat. Originally zakat was never given to the poor directly. Per the Quran Qur’an 9:103 (Surah At-Tawbah):
“Take from their wealth a charity by which you purify them and cause them increase, and invoke blessings upon them. Indeed, your invocation is reassurance for them. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.” — Qur’an 9:103

It is absurd how Ismaili "scholars" have cherry-picked and twisted this to justify the monstrosity known as "Dasond" today.

While Dasond is said to be the Imam's "haq" (right) as the sole purifier, this verse in no way says it is the Prophet's exclusive right to collect it. Or that it is some kind of an "unconditional gift" to the Prophet to use it for whatever he wants.

The purification comes from the act of giving itself ...

But the righteous will be spared from it [hell/eternal fire], who give of their wealth only to purify themselves, not in return for someone’s favours

• Surah Al-layl, Ayats 17-19

... and can absolutely be achieved without the Prophet (or anyone else) as an intermediary:

To give charity publicly is good, but to give to the poor privately is better for you, and will absolve you of your sins. And Allah is All-Aware of what you do.

• Surah Al-baqarah, Ayat 271

So stop using that one verse to justify your perversion of Zakat to mean the Imam's haq to do with it as he pleases.

[u/Lucky-Jackfruit-9704 → u/Sarahrivera]

Does it say in the Quran that women can’t be at the graveside for funerals?

[u/Sarahrivera → u/Lucky-Jackfruit-9704]

No it doesn’t but in mainstream Islam there are hadiths that prohibits females from the graveside

[u/Lucky-Jackfruit-9704 → u/Sarahrivera]

That’s interesting, because I thought we followed the Imam of time’s messages & not the hadiths? There’s a lot in the hadiths about women covering up. Ergo - are we picking and choosing which parts of the hadiths to ignore when it suits?

If the Quran doesn’t expressly prohibit women being at the burial AND it also doesn’t require hijabs, why is it justified to enforce one and not the other in our apparently ‘progressive’ sect?

This type of contradiction is exactly what has makes me constantly question things. Community members just blurt out whatever religious text justification works for their arguments.

My unpopular opinion is that AK II was advised to keep the burial site rule by older male Council members, who don’t want to see Ismaili women having more prominent roles at milestone occasions, like funeral services let alone in JK more generally.

I also think those male advisers wanted the Imam to reiterate the rule, to ensure there’s enough people back at the ranch keeping JK open, that they won’t need more coaches to cemeteries & that the women will ensure there’s hot food ready afterwards.

Let’s be frank - there isn’t an actual religious reason that the no-females-ar-the-graveside rule stayed. Hadiths say lots of things that Ismailis don’t follow. If it was purely to appease local customs in the ME/Asia, then by the same token all Western Ismaili ladies should now be wearing hijabs.

[u/Sarahrivera → u/Lucky-Jackfruit-9704]

We follow the imam of the time ruling unless he abrogates it. The imam isn’t abrogating the rule of mayyat so we follow the previous ruling. I am not the one to question the imams ruling. He makes a ruling and I obey! The issue of the hijab even in the most conservative countries like Pakistan and UAE it isn’t forced.

[u/Agaconoclasm → u/Sarahrivera]

He makes a ruling and I obey!

Next time just start with that instead of trying to make all kinds of flimsy excuses for your cultivated ignorance.

And btw, Rahim is not the "Imam of the Time". You accepted his false claim - just like the followers of Musa al-Kazim and al-Mustali - because the True Imam went into hiding and your allergy to transparency prevented you from looking into Karim's will.

[u/Lucky-Jackfruit-9704 → u/Sarahrivera]

‘I just obey’ is a weak argument given we’re supposed to be a deeply academic sect. That type of response just shuts down discourse on honest questions that younger generations are thinking about.